Proposed virt changes feedback

[Einsof.1457]

I understand the horror that F5 can block, but if you remove the ability to block with the F5 skill then the channeling should also be removed, along with the entire graphic of the skill which looks like a protective bubble. In short, if you remove the block, the skill is just a channeled weak F1 which is dumb. If you insist on the change, make it instant cast at the very least. Best solution: Reduce block/channel time similar to how you are hitting distortion. Do not change the theme/concept of the skill. 

As for dagger 3, making it ground target is a terrible idea. The flow of a virt rotation is fast paced and this dagger 3 change slows it down a lot. If you must nerf, just nerf raw numbers don't change this skill please.  Best solution: If you must, just nerf the damage but best move is to just leave dagger 3 alone. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[phokus.8934]

What?  New blade song is going to be a (near) instant cast ranged AOE ability.

[Einsof.1457]

15 minutes ago, phokus.8934 said:

What?  New blade song is going to be a (near) instant cast ranged AOE ability.

I don't want a ground target on such a short cd. That's terrible

[dead.7638]

Make it a counter attack, make the players happy, make the game happy and fun.     Oops.   I forgot this is gw2 dev team we’re dealing with.

[Einsof.1457]

3 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

Make it a counter attack, make the players happy, make the game happy and fun.     Oops.   I forgot this is gw2 dev team we’re dealing with.

The biggest mistake Anet has been doing over the past 18 months is balancing everything based on what the top 0.01% of players are doing. They are sacrificing fun, class identity, and frankly what makes gw2 great to bring down the 0.01% at the expense of everyone else. It's really sad to watch them shoot themselves like this. It's like they forgot that games are supposed to be fun. But I digress, I just wanted to talk about these specific unnecessary virt changes. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Einsof.1457

[Toraseishin.1932]

On 6/11/2023 at 6:54 AM, Einsof.1457 said:

As for dagger 3, making it ground target is a terrible idea. The flow of a virt rotation is fast paced and this dagger 3 change slows it down a lot. If you must nerf, just nerf raw numbers don't change this skill please.  Best solution: If you must, just nerf the damage but best move is to just leave dagger 3 alone. 

A number of people have posted about this (including myself) in the main feedback thread, but I really hope this issue gets more attention. It's one thing to have some ground-targeted abilities as utility skills, since you can pick and choose. They're great for mobility too since you need to be precise. But having one (or more) on your weapon skills means you're stuck with it if you want to use that weapon type.

Ground targeted DPS skills simply do not suit the flow and playstyle for dagger Virtuoso. I am dreading this potential change for many reasons - including the break in flow (as you and I and others have mentioned), the loss of uniqueness and fantasy of the skill as it currently functions/looks, and I am CERTAINLY not looking forward to having a new DPS skill to struggle to use in group situations as I spend 5-10 seconds trying to find my kitten cursor 🤦‍♂️

I suggested other options in my feedback thread post. Really praying they re-think this before pushing out another damaging patch...

Dagger 2 change, on the other hand, looks interesting. On paper it seems like a good change, but it would be nice to be able to test these things out in a test server before these patches go live....

[crazyhusky.2985]

The change to heal skill is passable but I'd rather the healing skill clear more conditions as this where virtuoso struggles.  2 or 3 condition clears instead of 1 in PvE. 3 condi clears would be in nice all modes.

Instead of the healing skill being offensive it should be more defensive, like a healing skill should be.

"Heal and convert conditions into blades (up to 3 or 5), if you clear 3 conditions then gain aegis and a random boon".

This way it is specfic to Virt and you don't end up hitting random mobs when you heal.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

On 6/11/2023 at 1:27 PM, Einsof.1457 said:

I don't want a ground target on such a short cd. That's terrible

 

21 hours ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

A number of people have posted about this (including myself) in the main feedback thread, but I really hope this issue gets more attention. It's one thing to have some ground-targeted abilities as utility skills, since you can pick and choose. They're great for mobility too since you need to be precise. But having one (or more) on your weapon skills means you're stuck with it if you want to use that weapon type.

Ground targeted DPS skills simply do not suit the flow and playstyle for dagger Virtuoso. I am dreading this potential change for many reasons - including the break in flow (as you and I and others have mentioned), the loss of uniqueness and fantasy of the skill as it currently functions/looks, and I am CERTAINLY not looking forward to having a new DPS skill to struggle to use in group situations as I spend 5-10 seconds trying to find my kitten cursor 🤦‍♂️

I suggested other options in my feedback thread post. Really praying they re-think this before pushing out another damaging patch...

Dagger 2 change, on the other hand, looks interesting. On paper it seems like a good change, but it would be nice to be able to test these things out in a test server before these patches go live....

Nah, ground-targeted unstable bladestorm will be a good change. It won't slow you down notably. If you can't find your cursor quickly I recommend the program "yolomouse" which lets you set a blight neon or pink cursor for example 🙂

I don't know what you mean by "I don't want a ground target on such a short cd. That's terrible", combustive shot has 8s cd, mark of blood has 5s cd, grenade auto and cluster bomb have 0s cd, etc etc.

Edited June 14, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Toraseishin.1932]

45 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Nah, ground-targeted unstable bladestorm will be a good change. It won't slow you down notably. If you can't find your cursor quickly I recommend the program "yolomouse" which lets you set a blight neon or pink cursor for example 🙂

I completely disagree, obviously lol
Ground-target DPS skills suck. I'm sure some people don't mind them, but a lot of people dislike them. I would go as far to say the use of ground-target skills is a specific playstyle in and of itself. They objectively slow you down because they add 2 additional steps to their use: Select the skill -> decide where to place it -> click the ground - then it activates.

...then the target moves out of the AoE and you're kitten out of luck lol
Unstable Bladestorm has the blades it's spitting out every second, so you'll still get something out of it. BUT - if you watched the livestream, they reduced the duration of the skill to 4 seconds. The original/current skill lasts over 6 seconds - covering more ground, spitting out more blades and doing more damage overall.
The new skill loses all its visual+functional uniqueness, and will now be just a basic AoE with 4 damage ticks. The better solution would be to keep it as is, but slow down its travel speed to get more payoff - which WON'T sacrifice the current usage, visual appeal and fantasy of the skill.

In regards to the mouse thing: I am aware of the add-on. I did look into it at one point, but I'm not really a fan of using 3rd party apps/add-ons. I may consider it again though since losing the cursor is a major frustration.

[phokus.8934]

@Cal Cohen.2358 Don't forget to undo the Vigor nerfs.

[Einsof.1457]

1 hour ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

 

Nah, ground-targeted unstable bladestorm will be a good change. It won't slow you down notably. If you can't find your cursor quickly I recommend the program "yolomouse" which lets you set a blight neon or pink cursor for example 🙂

I don't know what you mean by "I don't want a ground target on such a short cd. That's terrible", combustive shot has 8s cd, mark of blood has 5s cd, grenade auto and cluster bomb have 0s cd, etc etc.

If I wanted to play an engi i'd play an engi. -.-

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

44 minutes ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

I completely disagree, obviously lol
Ground-target DPS skills suck. I'm sure some people don't mind them, but a lot of people dislike them. I would go as far to say the use of ground-target skills is a specific playstyle in and of itself. They objectively slow you down because they add 2 additional steps to their use: Select the skill -> decide where to place it -> click the ground - then it activates.

Nah, there is a "Snap Ground Target To Current Target" option that you can enable, so you just need to press the skill!

44 minutes ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

...then the target moves out of the AoE and you're kitten out of luck lol
Unstable Bladestorm has the blades it's spitting out every second, so you'll still get something out of it. BUT - if you watched the livestream, they reduced the duration of the skill to 4 seconds. The original/current skill lasts over 6 seconds - covering more ground, spitting out more blades and doing more damage overall.
The new skill loses all its visual+functional uniqueness, and will now be just a basic AoE with 4 damage ticks. The better solution would be to keep it as is, but slow down its travel speed to get more payoff - which WON'T sacrifice the current usage, visual appeal and fantasy of the skill.

In regards to the mouse thing: I am aware of the add-on. I did look into it at one point, but I'm not really a fan of using 3rd party apps/add-ons. I may consider it again though since losing the cursor is a major frustration.

Yeah the cursor in GW2 is pretty bad (hard to see) so it is a good recommendation to try.

Edited June 14, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

28 minutes ago, Einsof.1457 said:

If I wanted to play an engi i'd play an engi. -.-

Try the "Snap Ground Target To Current Target" option, then you just need to press the skill

[Toraseishin.1932]

52 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Nah, there is a "Snap Ground Target To Current Target" option that you can enable, so you just need to press the skill!

Unfortunately, that option is VERY problematic. While it's better for an AoE skill in an ideal situation with only 1 target or grouped mobs, it forces you to use that skill on the targeted enemy (within range).
So let's say you're currently targeting an enemy and select that skill, but it's not the enemy you want to use it on, or it's not in right location you want. The only way to change its location at that point is to keep pressing Tab until you've locked onto a target you DO want, or to press escape to cancel the skill selection. You also can't click anywhere with your mouse once you've selected a ground-target skill, because it'll still activate the skill on the targeted enemy's location.

This option also negatively effects skills with mobility involved - such as Daredevil staff 5 (Vault). Instead of being able to select the exact spot I want to move my character to (which also deals damage), it'll automatically lock it onto my target instead.

So you still have to press the skill twice (or mouse click) for it to activate, but now have to make sure you're locked onto the right target you want to use it on, or get screwed if you happen to have a skill that involves mobility. You're basically trading freedom of placement for more headaches.

Daredevil Staff 5: I need the freedom of placement and precision that a ground target skill provides as this is a mobility-based DPS skill.
Virtuoso Dagger 3: Pressing the skill once and knowing it'll travel right in front of me no matter where I am (or what I'm targeting) -  doing damage along the way without causing any interruption to the flow of combat - is greatly preferred.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Toraseishin.1932

[ventress.4879]

4 hours ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

Unfortunately, that option is VERY problematic. While it's better for an AoE skill in an ideal situation with only 1 target or grouped mobs, it forces you to use that skill on the targeted enemy (within range).
So let's say you're currently targeting an enemy and select that skill, but it's not the enemy you want to use it on, or it's not in right location you want. The only way to change its location at that point is to keep pressing Tab until you've locked onto a target you DO want, or to press escape to cancel the skill selection. You also can't click anywhere with your mouse once you've selected a ground-target skill, because it'll still activate the skill on the targeted enemy's location.

This option also negatively effects skills with mobility involved - such as Daredevil staff 5 (Vault). Instead of being able to select the exact spot I want to move my character to (which also deals damage), it'll automatically lock it onto my target instead.

So you still have to press the skill twice (or mouse click) for it to activate, but now have to make sure you're locked onto the right target you want to use it on, or get screwed if you happen to have a skill that involves mobility. You're basically trading freedom of placement for more headaches.

Daredevil Staff 5: I need the freedom of placement and precision that a ground target skill provides as this is a mobility-based DPS skill.
Virtuoso Dagger 3: Pressing the skill once and knowing it'll travel right in front of me no matter where I am (or what I'm targeting) -  doing damage along the way without causing any interruption to the flow of combat - is greatly preferred.

You know you can bind a toggle for this. 

I often use a toggle for auto locking on ranged professions then no-locking for movement abilities so it's same principle 

[Toraseishin.1932]

56 minutes ago, ventress.4879 said:

You know you can bind a toggle for this. 

I often use a toggle for auto locking on ranged professions then no-locking for movement abilities so it's same principle 

While it's great that you can apparently toggle the setting depending on what class you're playing, that only addresses the second half of the issues I presented with that setting. Having it set to auto-lock is a problem even for ranged DPS skills, which I outlined in detail.

Anyway, I've said what I needed to say on the Unstable Bladestorm matter. It seems some people are going to keep trying to convince me (and others) to like ground-target DPS skills, and dismiss every point I make about the functional+visual+playstyle changes to the skill - regardless of what I say.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Toraseishin.1932

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

12 hours ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

Unfortunately, that option is VERY problematic. While it's better for an AoE skill in an ideal situation with only 1 target or grouped mobs, it forces you to use that skill on the targeted enemy (within range).

Yeah, so essentially how normal skills work (mirror blade for ex). You seem to want optimally placed AoE skills without the modicrum of effort of just moving your mouse to the desired location. Kind of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too situation.

12 hours ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

So let's say you're currently targeting an enemy and select that skill, but it's not the enemy you want to use it on, or it's not in right location you want. The only way to change its location at that point is to keep pressing Tab until you've locked onto a target you DO want, or to press escape to cancel the skill selection. You also can't click anywhere with your mouse once you've selected a ground-target skill, because it'll still activate the skill on the targeted enemy's location.

Well yes, it goes on your current target, that's the whole point. That's how normal skills work (if you are targeting an enemy and want to use point blank shot on another enemy, you have to tab target or left click on the desired enemy.

12 hours ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

This option also negatively effects skills with mobility involved - such as Daredevil staff 5 (Vault). Instead of being able to select the exact spot I want to move my character to (which also deals damage), it'll automatically lock it onto my target instead.

Disable/toggle snap ground target to current target keybind let's you enable or disable snap ground target at will! Also this isn't relevant to Virtuoso.

12 hours ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

 

So you still have to press the skill twice (or mouse click) for it to activate, but now have to make sure you're locked onto the right target you want to use it on, or get screwed if you happen to have a skill that involves mobility. You're basically trading freedom of placement for more headaches.

Why press the skill twice? I use instant ground target placement without issue.

12 hours ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

Daredevil Staff 5: I need the freedom of placement and precision that a ground target skill provides as this is a mobility-based DPS skill.
Virtuoso Dagger 3: Pressing the skill once and knowing it'll travel right in front of me no matter where I am (or what I'm targeting) -  doing damage along the way without causing any interruption to the flow of combat - is greatly preferred.

This is about Virtuoso, so daredevil staff 5 isn't relevant. You don't need to interrupt flow of combat by just pressing 3 on your target with snap ground target on.

[Bakeneko.5826]

16 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Nah, ground-targeted unstable bladestorm will be a good change. It won't slow you down notably. If you can't find your cursor quickly I recommend the program "yolomouse" which lets you set a blight neon or pink cursor for example 🙂

Set ground target to lock onto target, use instacast. Done.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

The initial feeling i got from mesmer changes was "Mirage is getting 2nd dodge back in competitive, so let's butcher core mes and virtuoso to make up for that!"

[Toraseishin.1932]

8 hours ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

Yeah, so essentially how normal skills work (mirror blade for ex). You seem to want optimally placed AoE skills without the modicrum of effort of just moving your mouse to the desired location. Kind of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too situation.

Well yes, it goes on your current target, that's the whole point. That's how normal skills work (if you are targeting an enemy and want to use point blank shot on another enemy, you have to tab target or left click on the desired enemy.

Disable/toggle snap ground target to current target keybind let's you enable or disable snap ground target at will! Also this isn't relevant to Virtuoso.

Why press the skill twice? I use instant ground target placement without issue.

This is about Virtuoso, so daredevil staff 5 isn't relevant. You don't need to interrupt flow of combat by just pressing 3 on your target with snap ground target on.

On the contrary - if I have a ground target skill, I WANT to be able to freely place it wherever I want. I would never bother using a ground target ability (of where there are multiple types) if it forces me to us it on the target itself, unless it's in an ideal situation with a training golem and on a ranged class specifically.

I mentioned Daredevil staff because it's another DPS ground target skill that would be negatively affected by the mentioned setting change. And the settings are account-wide. No way in hell am I setting up toggles for one or more combat settings that I not only do not like, but would only be beneficial to me in very specific situations with very specific skills.

The entire point of my initial concern was THE CHANGE TO UNSTABLE BLADESTORM SPECIFICALLY. From an instant cast, target-less, 6.5 second, traveling AoE skill --> to a ground target, 4 second, stationary DPS ticking skill.
If it were a ground target skill initially, this wouldn't even be a discussion. I wouldn't even be fighting for it to become anything else.

Your responses to me (and from others) are basically: "Accept the change and play the way I like with my toggles or get out"
 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

11 minutes ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

On the contrary - if I have a ground target skill, I WANT to be able to freely place it wherever I want.

Yeah so don't use snap ground target, or have it enabled but hold down "disable snap ground target" when you want to disable autotargeting.

11 minutes ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

I would never bother using a ground target ability (of where there are multiple types) if it forces me to us it on the target itself, unless it's in an ideal situation with a training golem and on a ranged class specifically.

I mentioned Daredevil staff because it's another DPS ground target skill that would be negatively affected by the mentioned setting change. And the settings are account-wide. No way in hell am I setting up toggles for one or more combat settings that I not only do not like, but would only be beneficial to me in very specific situations with very specific skills.

Consider it. Personally I swap keybinds between classes. Binding the toggle or disable snap ground target bind isn't a big trouble.

11 minutes ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

The entire point of my initial concern was THE CHANGE TO UNSTABLE BLADESTORM SPECIFICALLY.

It's not usable in many situations currently, which is why it was changed.

11 minutes ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

From an instant cast, target-less, 6.5 second, traveling AoE skill --> to a ground target, 4 second, stationary DPS ticking skill.

1. It's still instant cast

2. The duration is a separate question from whether or not it should be ground-targeted.

3. Yeah traveling vs stationary-but-ranged is a matter of subjective opinion. Personally I much prefer ground-targeted because the current version barely works in PvP, while the reworked version will work in all gamemodes.

11 minutes ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

If it were a ground target skill initially, this wouldn't even be a discussion. I wouldn't even be fighting for it to become anything else.

Why not?

11 minutes ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

Your responses to me (and from others) are basically: "Accept the change and play the way I like with my toggles or get out"

You can have your own opinion, I can disagree. I personally previously suggested that they should make it a ground target skill because it will be less useless in PvP and be a handy tool to cover some of dagger Virtuoso's weaknesses (Line-of-sight and kiting on elevation). Although I would still like them to add cripple to it.

Edited June 15, 2023 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Toraseishin.1932]

7 minutes ago, agrippastrilemma.8741 said:

I personally previously suggested that they should make it a ground target skill because it will be less useless in PvP and be a handy tool to cover some of dagger Virtuoso's weaknesses (Line-of-sight and kiting on elevation). Although I would still like them to add cripple to it.

Enough said. That explains everything lol
Congrats on getting the change you wanted. I'll be here enjoying the original vision and function of the skill in PvE until the 27th.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

1 minute ago, Toraseishin.1932 said:

Enough said. That explains everything lol
Congrats on getting the change you wanted. I'll be here enjoying the original vision and function of the skill in PvE until the 27th.

If they took my suggestion specifically, I'd be happy, though they have never taken my other suggestions so it seems pretty unlikely. Yeah, enjoy. I think you will be able to get used to the new skill after the patch!