Bladesworn - Shield Master trait

[Zebulon.1850]

I think it's high time the shield master trait gets looked at, specifically for bladesworn.

Just like the multitude of guardian traits that are significantly nerfed for firebrand or willbender, shield master is in desperate need of a change when picked with bladesworn.

For those who don't know, when this trait is picked, it makes aegis reflect an unlimited amount of attacks. (That's why almost every bladesworn now is running that traitline now.)

With a bit of boon duration, bladesworn can easily have 50%+ uptime, making them quite literally the most annoying class to fight as any class using a ranged weapon. If you're roaming with a ranged weapon on and you see a bladesworn, it's not even worth trying to attack.

I suggest updating it so that when slotted with bladesworn, aegis gets removed after it reflects 1 attack, like it was intended to do normally.

Given the track record of the devs, I hard to believe that this was even an intended or considered interaction.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

A fair point. Though as a necro main (read: free food for wvw rangers and deadeyes) I find this interaction both hilarious and poetic justice!

[felix.2386]

8 hours ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

I think it's high time the shield master trait gets looked at, specifically for bladesworn.

Just like the multitude of guardian traits that are significantly nerfed for firebrand or willbender, shield master is in desperate need of a change when picked with bladesworn.

For those who don't know, when this trait is picked, it makes aegis reflect an unlimited amount of attacks. (That's why almost every bladesworn now is running that traitline now.)

With a bit of boon duration, bladesworn can easily have 50%+ uptime, making them quite literally the most annoying class to fight as any class using a ranged weapon. If you're roaming with a ranged weapon on and you see a bladesworn, it's not even worth trying to attack.

I suggest updating it so that when slotted with bladesworn, aegis gets removed after it reflects 1 attack, like it was intended to do normally.

Given the track record of the devs, I hard to believe that this was even an intended or considered interaction.

can you even read what you wrote? you think it mean sense? haha

your post is as ridiculous as saying range attack should be removed because melee can not reach range while range can attack melee, there's no point of fighting a range as melee because they will just kit you and pew pew you infinitely.

Edited June 25, 2023 by felix.2386

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

15 hours ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

I think it's high time the shield master trait gets looked at, specifically for bladesworn.

Just like the multitude of guardian traits that are significantly nerfed for firebrand or willbender, shield master is in desperate need of a change when picked with bladesworn.

For those who don't know, when this trait is picked, it makes aegis reflect an unlimited amount of attacks. (That's why almost every bladesworn now is running that traitline now.)

With a bit of boon duration, bladesworn can easily have 50%+ uptime, making them quite literally the most annoying class to fight as any class using a ranged weapon. If you're roaming with a ranged weapon on and you see a bladesworn, it's not even worth trying to attack.

I suggest updating it so that when slotted with bladesworn, aegis gets removed after it reflects 1 attack, like it was intended to do normally.

Given the track record of the devs, I hard to believe that this was even an intended or considered interaction.

I disagree.

I grant you that BS is super annoying to fight. But I also grant you that this game is absolutely filled with ranged nonsense (eg, all of ranger, deadeye, some engi builds, etc) that warrior has no meaningful answer to. Warrior needs those reflects to prevent being pew pewed to death. Give me a meaningful alternative and then we'll talk. Until then, the reflects should stay.

Moreover, the problem with BS isn't it's reflects or it's shouts or w/e, it's the combination of all of those things on top of 2 heal skills (reloadable with tactical reload). If you nerfed combat stimulant (or made it not reload with TR), BS would be a lot less annoying to fight. 

It would also head immediately into the dumpster as the OP healing is what is propping it up. I'm all for meaningful reworks to BS to make it less cheesy, but just recognize that it would need some major love if you take away its bloated sustain.

[Myror.7521]

@CalmTheStorm.2364 I would say ....... CCs are the answer but nowdays CCs are not allowed to deal dmg anymore (on warr at least, still stupid when you think about it been a Full melee class and things like ele/engi/mes are allowed to Deal dmg on CC)

[Zekent.3652]

Okay, yes, it's a dumb synergy.

But i wanna know something, there are more projectile hate classes in this game, why do people loose instantly blames this class, when there are other classes that has been doing this since a good while, and i'm not talking just about this. People looses their mind whenever warrior becomes strong in 1 thing, and apparently okay with other classes doing the same thing. 

[Shagie.7612]

25 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

But i wanna know something, there are more projectile hate classes in this game, why do people loose instantly blames this class, when there are other classes that has been doing this since a good while

you mean like how everyone's been pretty accurately upset about catalyst and tempest, the biggest projectile hate offenders, recently?

the trait works as it reads, it's not a bug or anything, but it's hilariously overpowered for a spec that's already disgustingly braindead levels of tanky and almost certainly not something anet saw coming
the pendulum on projectile hate's swung massively in the other direction since EoD and it's pretty stupid

[Dahkeus.8243]

22 hours ago, Zebulon.1850 said:

I think it's high time the shield master trait gets looked at, specifically for bladesworn.

Just like the multitude of guardian traits that are significantly nerfed for firebrand or willbender, shield master is in desperate need of a change when picked with bladesworn.

For those who don't know, when this trait is picked, it makes aegis reflect an unlimited amount of attacks. (That's why almost every bladesworn now is running that traitline now.)

With a bit of boon duration, bladesworn can easily have 50%+ uptime, making them quite literally the most annoying class to fight as any class using a ranged weapon. If you're roaming with a ranged weapon on and you see a bladesworn, it's not even worth trying to attack.

I suggest updating it so that when slotted with bladesworn, aegis gets removed after it reflects 1 attack, like it was intended to do normally.

Given the track record of the devs, I hard to believe that this was even an intended or considered interaction.

This trait just sorts out a lot of the good players from the bad.  Aegis blocks one attack.  You need just one non-projectile attack to break it.  
 

Rangers and soulbeasts can longbow 5 or have a pet attack.  Renegades can short bow 4.  Every class has a non-projectile ability to break the aegis easily, but yes, you will have to pay attention to your target instead of attacking like you’re practicing a PvE DPS rotation on a golem.  
 

All that being said, I doubt the devs anticipated this use of the trait, so it could easily be needed, which is a shame because it allows the BS to be a very thoughtful build in fights that actually stands a chance against all the cele builds in WvW.

[pninak.1069]

so the trait is actually of use. expected it to work on blocks only and not aegis, because aegis is based on a boon and not a skill. but if it applies to aegis you still have the same rules for all other aegis. then it is a cry about nothing since you just need to hit with aoe or melee just once and the protection is gone. tbh I find it a nice way to force someone to a samurai showdown. only really lackluster spec against it would be lb ranger and that still has acess to unblockable and barrage.

[CalmTheStorm.2364]

40 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

. only really lackluster spec against it would be lb ranger and that still has acess to unblockable and barrage.

Or they can just let their pet run up and proc the aegis.

[pninak.1069]

24 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

Or they can just let their pet run up and proc the aegis.

true. also just checked how much access bs has to aegis. find it hard to believe that it can even reach 50% upkeep. the build I plan to use for alac bs has 40% boon duration already bringing the skills that offer aegis to 2*4,5 and 2*2.75 seconds of aegis. but the recharge of those skills are beyond 20 seconds(except gunstinger) so even if we use lush forest and use an ideal weapon like the upcoming rifle buff we still fall short on the cd reduction. alac also hardly does anything for its upkeep.

for the build to be this "annoying" I assume you need a big ton of boon duration and also sacrifice dmg by doing that. so it is just annoying to be annoying without any real impact. played similiar builds like this also and it really just to make ppl angry while in itself the build is not a threat.

[Leo G.4501]

This is an interesting proposition. Although comparatively, it's minor reflect since it has a counter. 

So if one-hit reflect for this trait is your solution, what makes Counterblow, Riposte and Parry any different? Those are also meant to be one-hit blocks but can also reflect using this trait and have been for a super long period of the game.

Is it the boon duration that's the primary issue? Because you could consider swapping out some aegis for normal block for a duration for the skill... Like changing trigger guard into a blocking skill while charging instead of the boon.

I feel Warrior doesn't get enough aegis in general to nerf this trait. Change more of the parry skills to shield-stance-like blocks and your change might feel justified.

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 hour ago, pninak.1069 said:

true. also just checked how much access bs has to aegis. find it hard to believe that it can even reach 50% upkeep. the build I plan to use for alac bs has 40% boon duration already bringing the skills that offer aegis to 2*4,5 and 2*2.75 seconds of aegis. but the recharge of those skills are beyond 20 seconds(except gunstinger) so even if we use lush forest and use an ideal weapon like the upcoming rifle buff we still fall short on the cd reduction. alac also hardly does anything for its upkeep.

for the build to be this "annoying" I assume you need a big ton of boon duration and also sacrifice dmg by doing that. so it is just annoying to be annoying without any real impact. played similiar builds like this also and it really just to make ppl angry while in itself the build is not a threat.

 

What makes this build annoying is not long aegis duration, it's the accessibility to aegis. For a build that has so many tools to force someone to dodge, it's incredible how easy it is to also make interactions between those "must-dodge" situations safe too.

 

Did your opponent dodge ur DT and block your subsequent Artillery Slash? don't worry, engage with Cyclone Trigger into Gunstinger to ensure your opponent isn't hitting you fast enough so you can secure that juicy axe 3 into axe 2

 

Throw in a Bull's Charge into TR (don't worry if they dodge, that's actually better for you), reset ur Gunstinger into axe 2, and while your opponent is now fully drained of resolve from not being able to consistently land dmg to eat through your cracked healing, jump into DT one last time and profit.

 

Can't wait to see this spec continue to dominate 1v1s 🙂

 

- Sincerely, 

Melee GW2 enjoyer

[pninak.1069]

it works like any other aegis. I don't get your point. if it was the duration it would have atleast been understandable, but soley blaming it for being able to use aegis is pretty rich considering warrior doesn't have as many engage and disengage options as other classes. you also didn't understand my point. the build might be annoying, but you can't kill ppl with it.

[vilesoldier.9826]

20 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

it works like any other aegis. I don't get your point. if it was the duration it would have atleast been understandable, but soley blaming it for being able to use aegis is pretty rich considering warrior doesn't have as many engage and disengage options as other classes.

 

My point is that having essentially on-demand aegis (that also does damage) gives a BSW plenty of chances to be wrong and still engage with enough leeway to get great damage in or even better, make ur opponent spend even more resources so you can set up damage later. All while their healing makes up for what little dmg they take if any.

 

20 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

the build might be annoying, but you can't kill ppl with it.

 

Ok so we're just flat-out lying now....

Edited June 26, 2023 by GeneralBM.5781

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

*Sip of coffee*

Stop justifying bunker nonsense. 

It's clear Aegis reflecting attacks so aggressively is an oversight. Warrior did not have aegis until very recently, and the frequency with which it can block/reflect attacks is likely an oversight (That, or the healing. Probably the healing.)

15 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

Okay, yes, it's a dumb synergy.

But i wanna know something, there are more projectile hate classes in this game, why do people loose instantly blames this class, when there are other classes that has been doing this since a good while, and i'm not talking just about this. People looses their mind whenever warrior becomes strong in 1 thing, and apparently okay with other classes doing the same thing. 

Bunker hate is universal, and for good reason.

Nobody likes fighting a brick wall that doesn't have to react to their presence. The fact that warrior is weak otherwise is due to balancing neglect, and the solution to that is to balance the class, not to make one variant noninteractive so it's just as immovable as the other problem specs. 

Warrior, and other classes, should be strong. Their strength, however, should when the class is played to some degree of skillfulness, instead of being so propped up by sustain that they can outheal anything that happens to them. 

Some of these names were here in arms about unkillable necros/virts/guardians/eles/etc. Be consistent with your balancing principles. 

This is like the 10th bunker meta. We tried this before. Learn your lesson.

Follow what @CalmTheStorm.2364 is suggesting and turn the healing down. reflecting skills is fine, but not on top of healing so significant. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[pninak.1069]

11 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

My point is that having essentially on-demand aegis (that also does damage) gives a BSW plenty of chances to be wrong and still engage with enough leeway to get great damage in or even better, make ur opponent spend even more resources so you can set up damage later. All while their healing makes up for what little dmg they take if any.

 

 

Ok so we're just flat-out lying now....

you make the same argument as to why some ppl claim mirage dodge is op or daredevil's.. or vindicator's. no I am not lying. without boon duration you can't keep it up. so you have less access to it than with high boon duration. and on demand? are you serious? sry, but then you haven't played bs.

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 minute ago, pninak.1069 said:

no I am not lying. without boon duration you can't keep it up. so you have less access to it than with high boon duration.

 

You are lying when you say that you cannot kill people with BSW. The 1v1 king BSW.

 

2 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

and on demand? are you serious? sry, but then you haven't played bs.

 

I'd like to ask how you've come to the conclusion that it's not on demand?

 

[pninak.1069]

1 minute ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

You are lying when you say that you cannot kill people with BSW. The 1v1 king BSW.

 

 

I'd like to ask how you've come to the conclusion that it's not on demand?

 

it is not on demand because you don't have access to it normally. first off outisde of pistol there are no weapon skills with aegis, second gunsaber skills have a high cooldown and third even with all that factored in you still spend the majority of time without aegis even if you have 100% boon duration.

 

I think you just got killed by a bs, but haven't checked if it actually runs this trait or not.

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

first off outisde of pistol there are no weapon skills with aegis

 

Moot point, you're a BSW who wants to kill things. You are running pistol OH

 

2 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

second gunsaber skills have a high cooldown

 

Good thing every way to gain aegis (3 ways) has 2 charges + TR to reset one

 

5 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

third even with all that factored in you still spend the majority of time without aegis even if you have 100% boon duration.

 

Again, not interested in 100% aegis uptime. I'm saying when a BSW wants aegis, it's easy to find it.

 

5 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

I think you just got killed by a bs, but haven't checked if it actually runs this trait or not.

My boss is Yerloqq, so I pick up a few things ig 🤷‍♂️

[pninak.1069]

but your argument has no weight since the only way for it to be oppressive if it has a long uptime.

[vilesoldier.9826]

Man this is as hard to get my point across as fighting an actual BSW.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

9 minutes ago, pninak.1069 said:

but your argument has no weight since the only way for it to be oppressive if it has a long uptime.

*Sigh*

Triggerguard  (Two ammo stacks) gives you on demand aegis. 40 second recharge

Cyclone trigger (Two ammo stacks) gives you on demand aegis. 20 second recharge.

Tactical Reload gives you a stack on each skill above. (40 second recharge.)

Gunstinger gives you on demand aegis. 15 second recharge. two stacks on this too.

the fact that shield master currently reflects multiple projectiles that interact with aegis means that cyclone trigger is effectively a long lasting projectile immune, since it prevents the aegis from being touched for 1.5 seconds, half of the duration that it currently has, while still reflecting projectiles.

It's oppressive. The aegis is not permanent, but it is frequent enough that the bladesworn can effectively become a walking projectile hate field. Add that to the fact that bladesworn has some of the best sustained healing in the game right now, and you have created something that cannot reasonably lose to ranged (and some melee at that) builds. 

Why are we arguing that builds not dipping below 90% HP is due to some skill issue that has remained undiscovered until now? You should be able to tell something's off by watching any bladesworn fight, much more if you actually use the build to reasonable effect. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

*Sigh*

Triggerguard  (Two ammo stacks) gives you on demand aegis. 40 second recharge

Cyclone trigger (Two ammo stacks) gives you on demand aegis. 20 second recharge.

Tactical Reload gives you a stack on each skill above. (40 second recharge.)

Gunstinger gives you on demand aegis. 15 second recharge. two stacks on this two.

the fact that shield master currently reflects multiple projectiles that interact with aegis means that cyclone trigger is effectively a long lasting projectile immune, since it prevents the aegis from being touched for 1.5 seconds, half of the duration that it currently has, while still reflecting projectiles.

It's oppressive.

 

ik it's hard for you to raise your hand against warrior, especially with Anet's tendency to hand it heavy-handed nerfs, but the aegis-spam downplay has to be addressed.

 

I don't even mind losing to Yerloqq, I learn things all the time from those matchups. What irks me is how randoms will twerk with their aegis, rely on shout heals to tank the whole fight, then turn around and call me trash for daring to play condi

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

ik it's hard for you to raise your hand against warrior, especially with Anet's tendency to hand it heavy-handed nerfs, but the aegis-spam downplay has to be addressed.

Make no mistake, this isn't reservation; it's simmering disappointment in the fact that after years of fighting bunkers of every sort and experiencing the ill effects of that, players are just as willing to adopt that playstyle themselves when it comes to warrior. I expected...something else, I think.

I am fine with tanky playstyles, if they require skill investment and timing. That has its limits though. 

Getting handed heavy nerfs is -also- annoying, but that tends to happen whether or not our current build is standing in damage bombs and surviving (See: Arc Divider rework)

Quote

What irks me is how randoms will twerk with their aegis, rely on shout heals to tank the whole fight, then turn around and call me trash for daring to play condi

It be like that.

They'll also get mad at you for kiting, despite their heals not being tied to dedicated animations (So your HP will go down faster if you trade hits with them up close when they have cds)

Edited June 26, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261