Silly sword changes no one asked for [Merged]

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

27 minutes ago, Matoro.9708 said:

So instead of the game nurturing whatever playstyle we want, it aggressively deletes whatever doesn't perform well?

Yes. Because poor performance to the point of minimal use means something should change.

[Matoro.9708]

5 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

Yes. Because poor performance to the point of minimal use means something should change.

Usually it means number buffs, not just deleting it and putting in something from another class in essence

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

17 hours ago, Matoro.9708 said:

Usually it means number buffs, not just deleting it and putting in something from another class in essence

They were in a position where they realistically couldn't for a few reasons.

 

1. Sword was actually really annoying to use in most situations. Even in pvp, the rolling around wasn't inherently beneficial even if it did have multiple evade frames.

 

2. If they made the numbers better (across modes), in PvE it still wouldn't be taken unless it was so absurdly broken it pushed power soulbeast to 50k, and in PvP/Wvw roaming it'd be absurdly OP because you'd have a strong weapon with multiple evade frames on strong attacks.

 

Now, sword is very hard hitting while still maintaining a more mobile playstyle, AND it finally sees use in PvE. It's a win across modes, unlike the niche pvp use it used to have.

[kharmin.7683]

3 hours ago, RainbowTurtle.3542 said:

They were in a position where they realistically couldn't for a few reasons.

 

1. Sword was actually really annoying to use in most situations. Even in pvp, the rolling around wasn't inherently beneficial even if it did have multiple evade frames.

 

2. If they made the numbers better (across modes), in PvE it still wouldn't be taken unless it was so absurdly broken it pushed power soulbeast to 50k, and in PvP/Wvw roaming it'd be absurdly OP because you'd have a strong weapon with multiple evade frames on strong attacks.

 

Now, sword is very hard hitting while still maintaining a more mobile playstyle, AND it finally sees use in PvE. It's a win across modes, unlike the niche pvp use it used to have.

Completely disagree with point #1.  "Most situations?" "wasn't inherently beneficial?"  It was all a L2P with MH sword.  If you knew how to use it, it was a lot of fun and quite useful.

Disagree as well as the last point, saying that it maintains a more mobile playstyle.  I find it to be significantly less mobile.  Once you leap in to your opponent, then what?  Leap again?  You're already standing there.  And now, you have no discernible evade and no movement to take advantage of the Skirmishing trait line.

Finally seeing use in PvE?  What type of PvE?  Group content?  Because I was using it a lot in open world, but not so much anymore due to these recent changes.

It's a win across modes?  The Skirmishing trait line  would probably disagree with you.

Serious question: Are you a ranger main? Have you really played the class with MH sword before these changes?  Did you know how?

[Matoro.9708]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Completely disagree with point #1.  "Most situations?" "wasn't inherently beneficial?"  It was all a L2P with MH sword.  If you knew how to use it, it was a lot of fun and quite useful.

Disagree as well as the last point, saying that it maintains a more mobile playstyle.  I find it to be significantly less mobile.  Once you leap in to your opponent, then what?  Leap again?  You're already standing there.  And now, you have no discernible evade and no movement to take advantage of the Skirmishing trait line.

Finally seeing use in PvE?  What type of PvE?  Group content?  Because I was using it a lot in open world, but not so much anymore due to these recent changes.

It's a win across modes?  The Skirmishing trait line  would probably disagree with you.

Serious question: Are you a ranger main? Have you really played the class with MH sword before these changes?  Did you know how?

Massive agree. All he loves about it is that it's hard hitting. Doesn't want conditions on it like flanking, or to pay attention to positioning, just unga bunga kill before you're killed.

The sword was the keystone of the playstyle that drew me to ranger. I'm struggling to make up for what was lost.

[kharmin.7683]

2 hours ago, Matoro.9708 said:

The sword was the keystone of the playstyle that drew me to ranger. I'm struggling to make up for what was lost.

Me too.  I was pretty torqued when they swapped skill 2 and 3 around, but then learned how to adjust my preferred rotation.  Now, it's bland with no interesting movement which, for me, has gutted one trait line which I found highly useful with the weapon.  As the thread title says, these were changes to sword that literally no one asked to be made.  It's frustrating and infuriating.

I really wanted OH shield to go with MH sword.  The only reason I rolled a Dragonhunter was to get that combination, but it just doesn't flow for me on that profession as much as it had with Ranger.

[Mell.4873]

The sword was quite literally unusable in PvE before this update. 

I mean at what point during a stack do you need to roll backwards and re-engage from behind. Both abilities could result in your death or being outside the boon aoe range. I mean this is literally Dagger Elementalist and Axe Mirage problem too but way worse. Both those weapons required you do leap through an enemy to get full dps, positioning you on the other side of a boss where you can be cleaved. 

Just the fact that Ranger Sword is being put in to Snowcrows benchmarks should indicate how strong it is. If you still want to leap back to re-engage take Lightning Reflexes. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by Mell.4873

[psizone.8437]

43 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

The sword was quite literally unusable in PvE before this update. 

Lots of weapons aren't on snowcrows benchmarks but you don't see them getting complete reworks like this.

They could have just buffed dagger for PvE and kept sword for it's WvW/sPvP use instead of removing what it was, especially since every spec will be able to use dagger next month anyway.

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, psizone.8437 said:

Lots of weapons aren't on snowcrows benchmarks but you don't see them getting complete reworks like this.

They could have just buffed dagger for PvE and kept sword for it's WvW/sPvP use instead of removing what it was, especially since every spec will be able to use dagger next month anyway.

Not necessary, I mean only Untamed can make use of the Dagger Ambush. 

Maybe you have a point in PvP but honestly I never saw any body use it and I main Ranger so I would know. Ultimately damage is king even in PvP so all the fluffing around getting dodge evades kind of means nothing if you did 0 damage. 

This is exactly why Greatsword + Longbow is the most used combo. 

[psizone.8437]

12 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Ultimately damage is king even in PvP so all the fluffing around getting dodge evades kind of means nothing if you did 0 damage. 

Sword did decent damage whilst having great defensive skills but the main damage came from the offhand weapon, either whirling defense on axe or hunters call on warhorn. Now to get the defense we lost from sword we have to take defensive utilities, potentially wasting slots.

If they felt that sword was lacking in damage they could have buffed it without altering it this drastically. 2 forward leaps (at 2 different ranges at that) just feels weird, especially when we could recharge monarch's leap in the past to have a second leap and keep the backwards leap and evade.

Greatsword is great because it has damage. gap closer, CC and a defensive skill built into one weapon. But it being a great weapon doesn't mean other options weren't used, even if it wasn't as much as it is.

Edited July 24, 2023 by psizone.8437
forgot a sentence

[kharmin.7683]

2 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

The sword was quite literally unusable in PvE before this update. 

I mean at what point during a stack do you need to roll backwards and re-engage from behind. Both abilities could result in your death or being outside the boon aoe range. I mean this is literally Dagger Elementalist and Axe Mirage problem too but way worse. Both those weapons required you do leap through an enemy to get full dps, positioning you on the other side of a boss where you can be cleaved. 

Just the fact that Ranger Sword is being put in to Snowcrows benchmarks should indicate how strong it is. If you still want to leap back to re-engage take Lightning Reflexes. 

It's like you never used sword correctly.

At what point do you roll backwards?  It's called "disengaging" so that you can re-engage and flank ... thus taking full advantage of a trait line designed for just that.  And you didn't have to waste a utility slot for it.

 

[Mell.4873]

46 minutes ago, psizone.8437 said:

Sword did decent damage whilst having great defensive skills but the main damage came from the offhand weapon, either whirling defense on axe or hunters call on warhorn. Now to get the defense we lost from sword we have to take defensive utilities, potentially wasting slots.

If they felt that sword was lacking in damage they could have buffed it without altering it this drastically. 2 forward leaps (at 2 different ranges at that) just feels weird, especially when we could recharge monarch's leap in the past to have a second leap and keep the backwards leap and evade.

Greatsword is great because it has damage. gap closer, CC and a defensive skill built into one weapon. But it being a great weapon doesn't mean other options weren't used, even if it wasn't as much as it is.

So, to make full use of Sword you had to use another Weapon.

33 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

It's like you never used sword correctly.

At what point do you roll backwards?  It's called "disengaging" so that you can re-engage and flank ... thus taking full advantage of a trait line designed for just that.  And you didn't have to waste a utility slot for it.

 

What was weird is having a leap skill into a move around behind the target, then evade backwards, then finally leap into a move around behind the target.

That was the problem with the skill. 

 

Ultimately it was never used because the skill directly controlled your movement, leaping backwards in a Raid/Strike is never a good idea for a Weapon skill.

[kharmin.7683]

We'll just have to disagree then.  I found it to be fun, useful and quite effective.  Apparently, you didn't have the same experience.

As for it never being used, you present a very limited scenario (raid/strike).  You may be right in that sense, in which case certainly other weapon sets may well prove more useful.  There was no need to radically change the way sword worked since, as you said, it was never used in that environment.

[Mell.4873]

5 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

We'll just have to disagree then.  I found it to be fun, useful and quite effective.  Apparently, you didn't have the same experience.

As for it never being used, you present a very limited scenario (raid/strike).  You may be right in that sense, in which case certainly other weapon sets may well prove more useful.  There was no need to radically change the way sword worked since, as you said, it was never used in that environment.

Okay that is fair. Someone did suggest that you should be able to select the skills you want like how Hammer is being implemented in the upcoming expansion. 

I would be okay with you being able to select the skills you want. It might be tricky to implement since they moved skill 2 to skill 3 but hey that could just let you flip both of them at the same time rather than individually.

Ranger does in some sense lack complex mechanics so weapons flips could be a better alternative to the Pet system.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Matoro.9708]

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

The sword was quite literally unusable in PvE before this update. 

I mean at what point during a stack do you need to roll backwards and re-engage from behind. Both abilities could result in your death or being outside the boon aoe range. I mean this is literally Dagger Elementalist and Axe Mirage problem too but way worse. Both those weapons required you do leap through an enemy to get full dps, positioning you on the other side of a boss where you can be cleaved. 

Just the fact that Ranger Sword is being put in to Snowcrows benchmarks should indicate how strong it is. If you still want to leap back to re-engage take Lightning Reflexes. 

Idk man... I think I was definitely using it before that update. I even have some screenshots of it in my character's hand - crazy!

Can you even see how much of a slave you are to the boon meta? You'd cut off your arm to save your hand. 

Given the state of the nonsense meta, something being on a meta website isn't a commendation to me - it's the opposite.

[Mell.4873]

33 minutes ago, Matoro.9708 said:

Idk man... I think I was definitely using it before that update. I even have some screenshots of it in my character's hand - crazy!

Can you even see how much of a slave you are to the boon meta? You'd cut off your arm to save your hand. 

Given the state of the nonsense meta, something being on a meta website isn't a commendation to me - it's the opposite.

Either way we are a slave to whatever Meta gets invented regardless of its boons or not. I think everyone is just annoyed that their niche gameplay got removed.

I have suffered since I did love Fervert Force especially in PvP of all places. Now I have to really make sure I weapon swap in the exact unleashed state to make sure I use the Ambush correctly. I am hopeful though since now more than ever the most number classes have access to the Core mechanics of the game even if it is boons.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Mell.4873

[psizone.8437]

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

So, to make full use of Sword you had to use another Weapon.

I mean, you do that with every one handed weapon, you pair it with something that compliments it and does what you want, either more damage or utility.

 

 

8 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Ultimately it was never used because the skill directly controlled your movement, leaping backwards in a Raid/Strike is never a good idea for a Weapon skill.

And that's the issue, they changed a weapon that was used for its mobility in WvW/sPvP to suit raids/strikes despite other options being there that didn't have that mobility.

I'm sure some people like the damage, maybe even the removal of the movement skills but if every movement skill in the game gets removed for more facetanking, the games going to get boring real quick - as this weapon has for me.

[Mell.4873]

2 hours ago, psizone.8437 said:

I mean, you do that with every one handed weapon, you pair it with something that compliments it and does what you want, either more damage or utility.

 

 

And that's the issue, they changed a weapon that was used for its mobility in WvW/sPvP to suit raids/strikes despite other options being there that didn't have that mobility.

I'm sure some people like the damage, maybe even the removal of the movement skills but if every movement skill in the game gets removed for more facetanking, the games going to get boring real quick - as this weapon has for me.

The new Sword can atleast stand on its own as a great weapon in PvE. 

The PvP stuff is fair even if I rarely saw it being used. It is pretty much a direct nerf if you did run it in PvP as some sort of dodge tank. 

[psizone.8437]

11 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

The PvP stuff is fair even if I rarely saw it being used. It is pretty much a direct nerf if you did run it in PvP as some sort of dodge tank. 

I think that's where most of the anger about it is coming from, I personally saw a fairly even split between sword, axe and greatsword in PvP and WvW so it's just a straight nerf there.

It's just weird to change it so drastically for a dps increase in high end pve when there were other options available for them to buff ranger.

[Mell.4873]

30 minutes ago, psizone.8437 said:

I think that's where most of the anger about it is coming from, I personally saw a fairly even split between sword, axe and greatsword in PvP and WvW so it's just a straight nerf there.

It's just weird to change it so drastically for a dps increase in high end pve when there were other options available for them to buff ranger.

The auther was talking a about PvE that is what most of my posts are addressing. We also don't have mainhand weapons that are power. 

[psizone.8437]

7 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

The auther was talking a about PvE that is what most of my posts are addressing. We also don't have mainhand weapons that are power. 

This thread was merged so I didn't see any specific PvE focus for the thread.

We don't but if needed they could have changed dagger, which has no real use in competitive modes with the only possible discontent coming from the mode it would be changed for (end game pve) or they could have waited for later in the year when mace comes out which could likely be a power mainhand weapon.

[Acyk.9671]

18 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Me too.  I was pretty torqued when they swapped skill 2 and 3 around, but then learned how to adjust my preferred rotation.  Now, it's bland with no interesting movement which, for me, has gutted one trait line which I found highly useful with the weapon.  As the thread title says, these were changes to sword that literally no one asked to be made.  It's frustrating and infuriating.

I really wanted OH shield to go with MH sword.  The only reason I rolled a Dragonhunter was to get that combination, but it just doesn't flow for me on that profession as much as it had with Ranger.

A lot of people asked for a good MH power melee weapon... sometimes sacrifices have to be made.

[Zyreva.1078]

16 hours ago, psizone.8437 said:

Sword did decent damage whilst having great defensive skills

It never had "great" defenses, because neither of the evades was aviable on demand. Serpent Strike was locked behind a leap and Hornet Sting behind a lenghty self rooting animation locking cast that was just asking any opponent to "burst/cc now". Now it might only have one evade, but that one is more accessible and allows for reactive use instead of random spam.

23 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Disagree as well as the last point, saying that it maintains a more mobile playstyle.  I find it to be significantly less mobile.  Once you leap in to your opponent, then what?  Leap again?  You're already standing there.  And now, you have no discernible evade and no movement to take advantage of the Skirmishing trait line.

You are talking as if the new skills lock you in place somehow. If you want to use the new mobility skills to close the gap you can do so. If you want to use them to get away from something - you can do that too. If you want to position yourself to the side of something - just take a step to the side, no need to use a skill.

Whether you like it or not - sword is now objectively stronger in every single game mode.

 

[psizone.8437]

3 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Hornet Sting behind a lenghty self rooting animation locking cast that was just asking any opponent to "burst/cc now".

Hornet sting was an evade through the entire cast time, not sure how "burst/CC now" was an option for your opponents... Plus we had serpent's striks 3/4 second evade on a 1 second cast time. Saying we didn't have great defense is just frankly wrong.

Now we just have the new serpent strike which has a 1/2 second evade on a 3/4 second cast time.

Sword is "stronger" only based on damage numbers, defensively it's objectively worse. They could have done the same job by buffing the damage numbers on the previous skills without breaking it's previous use.
 

[Zyreva.1078]

17 minutes ago, psizone.8437 said:

Hornet sting was an evade through the entire cast time, not sure how "burst/CC now" was an option for your opponents... Plus we had serpent's striks 3/4 second evade on a 1 second cast time. Saying we didn't have great defense is just frankly wrong.

You had no evade frame during hornet sting's stab animation, which locked you in place for at least 1/2s if not longer. The evade frame was only applied during the backwards roll. And as i said, serpent strike was only aviable if you used the leap first- if you had to evade something but hadn't used the leap, you were out of luck. Two on demand leap finisher also means more potential stealth or healing through combos, so even more benefits.

Also the forced movement on both old skills could make them unusable on certain terrain or at least put you into a bad position. Now the movement part of the skills can be avoided if the target is close. Which is why they changed more than just numbers.

If it was such a great defensive weapon it would have seen more play in PvP or WvW, yet it didn't. If it was used, it was mostly for mobility in rather niche builds. And it still provides that, but now also dmg and immob in addition, and as result it is played more and in actually good builds across all game modes and not just in "it doesn't matter what you play" open world/wvw/low lvl (un)ranked.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Zyreva.1078