Silly sword changes no one asked for [Merged]

[kharmin.7683]

Still, whether or not the sword was effective for some players and less so for others (depending on content, too), no one asked for these changes.  No one.  There is not one, single thread that I can find in this sub-forum that asked for sword to be changed into what it is now.   That's the entire point.

[Levetty.1279]

8 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Removing words isn't editing? As you clearly removed 'it's an attack move' and then left out all the context of the quoted reply to make it seem like a contradiction.  The only insult here is to my intelligence atm...

The fact you are having to throw out these childish insults just proves you have no argument. This is why Anet will never change it back, because you have no good reason for them to.

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Still, whether or not the sword was effective for some players and less so for others (depending on content, too), no one asked for these changes.  No one.  There is not one, single thread that I can find in this sub-forum that asked for sword to be changed into what it is now.   That's the entire point.

Oh the irony, I did find someone asking for Sword changes.

"Improving Untamed for WvW"

On 12/7/2022 at 1:33 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Sure, but if they buff sword damage it'd outclass gs anyday because of the number of evades (and evade > block due to unblockables).  

So really, they should just have one set for all melee and one set for all ranged to please everyone.  

"Rework some weapon skills"

On 11/3/2022 at 8:16 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

They just need to up sword damage, and swap hornet sting and monarch leap so your engage is on 3 skill; that way it matches every other melee weapon (gs and dagger).   

Seems like this exact suggestion was almost 100% what really happened too. Wow @Gotejjeken.1267 nailed what they would change.

 

To add further insult to injury I found this thread. 

 

Edited August 20, 2023 by Mell.4873

[kharmin.7683]

So show me where a thread asked for the exact changes that have been implemented in the current sword. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Seems like this exact suggestion was almost 100% what really happened too. Wow @Gotejjeken.1267 nailed what they would change.

Not in the slightest was my suggestion what they actually did. 

The suggestion you quote was to put Monarch Leap on #3 instead of #2--that's it.  The reason for that suggestion was every other ranger engage is on #3 (even the underwater spear); the only exception to this is hammer. 

There's no possible way to interpret that as I want two identical leaps named differently.  Neither is 'if they buff sword damage it'd compete with GS' which obviously means the AA damage, especially since I immediately refer to 'number of evades' there (i.e. meaning the kiting capability sword used to have).

Anyway, don't know why you are doing random out of context quotes from last year when I have my exact full opinion on the matter on page #2 of this thread...with a video.

 

6 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

 

The fact that for the first time in this games history sword is used in PvE meta builds for more than just its autoattack? The fact that for the first time in idk how many years sword is used in a PvP meta build? The fact that nobody who wants old sword back used it in content where performance actually matters? No, roleplaying in open world does not count.

 

The reason for the PvE meta build is due to Strider's Defense change to Strider's Strength and it giving some crazy power when you are wielding a sword.  That, and with two leaps it's of course easier to mindlessly spam attacks on bosses--we are in a facetank boon puke meta after all--so who needs dodging?

As for 'meta PvP build', I do use sword in competitive, but always have (see video on page #2 for me using it in like 2015).  Again, the only reason it hits hard now is strider strength and they overtuned the #2/#3 damage a bit because of how linear the weapon is. 

It's all engage all day though, as evidenced by it being 'meta' on a sic' em build--you either burst someone down with it or die.  That has never been the spirit of the sword and is what a lot of us longtimers are upset about.  

That is: "The fact that nobody who wants old sword back used it in content where performance actually matters" is plain wrong as there are still some of us around from when this game took skill and didn't rely on boons / cele gear to carry the bads. 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

*double post*

Edited August 20, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, kharmin.7683 said:

So show me where a thread asked for the exact changes that have been implemented in the current sword. 

Well that is impossible as shown everyone wanted to make the Sword Skills 2 & 3 more complex. I couldn't even understand half of what they wanted in the threads I posted. 

I mean Serpent Strike having ammo..... That just makes it needlessly complex. The sword we have now is simple and straightforward.

[Mell.4873]

@Gotejjeken.1267

Honestly I just thought It was funny that your suggestion was what they ended up doing. (Switch but then remove the leap backwards) 

I mean I sorta agree they have dumbed down sword but honestly I do think its for the best. Like I have been saying no one used this in any game mode before. I might not have any facts but forum posts represent a tiny proportion of the community. 

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

9 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Just as @kharmin.7683

Said: "You have zero evidence that's the case", and in fact, there are numerous threads in this very forum about people asking for changes to be reverted.

Not to mention the pre changes ideas/requests people made for this weapon.

Also @Gotejjeken.1267 is speaking in a very intelligent and logic way.

It is obvious these two people know their stuff about Ranger and the topic in hand.

Most important points at this stage.

1. They made changes nobody asked for.

(Or at least these were not the changes requested).

2. Old sword skill 3 was a lot more useful than what is now. 

3. Still does not justify 2 skills being exactly the same. Just with different names and slightly different animation.

4. The forum pop is only a small portion of the huge player base.

You will find people in-game tend to be more truthful and realistic, at least 90% of the time.

This, is offcourse subjective, and depending on the right time, place, and situation; players may give you different answers/feedback.

 

Question is: How many people are actually viable and truthful in order to gather proper data and create a statistical chart?

How many people would actually, truthfully be happy with Ranger Sword now and then?

All we have is speculation, at best, and knowing people can change their minds at sime point or another, does not change the FACT that the previous skill layout was much more effective than the current one.

It does not matter which lines of argument you want to present, or try manipulate other people's posts by "half smart" editing and making it look like a contradiction... to try undermine it; still does not change facts.

Facts are gathered from numbers... and numbers says that the previous version of Ranger sword was a lot more effective than the current nonsense. 

Full stop. Period.

Another big issue is what you have them do. Revert Sword back to the old one and buff the damage......?

I mean do you think the people that now use this weapon for end game PvE Content will be happy if they have their Sword reverted? 

[kharmin.7683]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Another big issue is what you have them do. Revert Sword back to the old one and buff the damage......?

I mean do you think the people that now use this weapon for end game PvE Content will be happy if they have their Sword reverted? 

Well, Anet can't satisfy everyone.  The people who used sword before this change were quite happy with it.  Again, no one running end game PvE content asked for this specific change, so why did Anet make it.

We all know that Anet won't revert it.  That would be like admitting to a mistake -- something they've only done once that I know of  with the introduction of the mount licenses, and even then they didn't revert anything.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Mell.4873 said:

Another big issue is what you have them do. Revert Sword back to the old one and buff the damage......?

I mean do you think the people that now use this weapon for end game PvE Content will be happy if they have their Sword reverted? 

I wouldn't full revert, no. 

As much as I liked the original sword, to say it was an acquired taste is putting it mildly. 

The OG one had the sticky AA that most did actually dislike because you had to be more careful with it than the average player is going to want to be.  So they changed that which was fine, but the downside is they never compensated for the DPS loss from the animation change--they never buffed the AA damage.  

The second iteration is where things just got weird.  There really is no reason to take serpent strike off its own key as it was arguably the most unique thing about sword.  Then flipping hornet sting / monarch leap was odd because sword was primarily a defensive weapon, so engaging with it was out of place.  That was fine enough though because at least serpent strike was still on the toggle, the bad part was leaving hornet sting as its own key when that skill has always been wonky and in dire need of a cast time shave.

So that's where my original suggestion came in, which I guess to some degree they did implement because both #2 and #3 are now engages. 

What I would personally do is just revert serpent strike to what it originally was and keep everything else the same.  Or keep serpent strike as an initial leap but make a secondary toggle that does the actual serpent movement.  This has precedent with gs #4 where the toggle is the kick that is really only useful in competitive.  

The downside is it pains me to lose the backward evade of hornet sting, but it wasn't nearly as useful as shortbow is in that regard and there isn't enough else on sword to really have it because sword is only 1H so missing 2 skills compared the 2H ones.  Pounce is actually a straight upgrade there.  

[Sansar.1302]

Sword is ruined and usless now, i realy want the orignal version back (the real orginal )

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Well, Anet can't satisfy everyone.  The people who used sword before this change were quite happy with it.  Again, no one running end game PvE content asked for this specific change, so why did Anet make it.

We all know that Anet won't revert it.  That would be like admitting to a mistake -- something they've only done once that I know of  with the introduction of the mount licenses, and even then they didn't revert anything.

Well we can agree on that, while no one was asking for this change they made it and probably won't revert it. 

 

3 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I wouldn't full revert, no. 

As much as I liked the original sword, to say it was an acquired taste is putting it mildly. 

The OG one had the sticky AA that most did actually dislike because you had to be more careful with it than the average player is going to want to be.  So they changed that which was fine, but the downside is they never compensated for the DPS loss from the animation change--they never buffed the AA damage.  

The second iteration is where things just got weird.  There really is no reason to take serpent strike off its own key as it was arguably the most unique thing about sword.  Then flipping hornet sting / monarch leap was odd because sword was primarily a defensive weapon, so engaging with it was out of place.  That was fine enough though because at least serpent strike was still on the toggle, the bad part was leaving hornet sting as its own key when that skill has always been wonky and in dire need of a cast time shave.

So that's where my original suggestion came in, which I guess to some degree they did implement because both #2 and #3 are now engages. 

What I would personally do is just revert serpent strike to what it originally was and keep everything else the same.  Or keep serpent strike as an initial leap but make a secondary toggle that does the actual serpent movement.  This has precedent with gs #4 where the toggle is the kick that is really only useful in competitive.  

The downside is it pains me to lose the backward evade of hornet sting, but it wasn't nearly as useful as shortbow is in that regard and there isn't enough else on sword to really have it because sword is only 1H so missing 2 skills compared the 2H ones.  Pounce is actually a straight upgrade there.  

I could see that, I think most people want the hornet sting leap backwards so we could just have that combo for the people that want it. Maybe the leap backwards resets the leap forwards kind of like before. 

[kharmin.7683]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I could see that, I think most people want the hornet sting leap backwards so we could just have that combo for the people that want it. Maybe the leap backwards resets the leap forwards kind of like before. 

For me, that would be a start.  Still, I find the current iteration just kills the Skirmishing line because there isn't really a way to get beside or behind the target using the weapon skills like there was before.  Seems that line is really only useful with shortbow now.  At least, for me.

[Levetty.1279]

21 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

Oh the irony, I did find someone asking for Sword changes.

"Improving Untamed for WvW"

"Rework some weapon skills"

Seems like this exact suggestion was almost 100% what really happened too. Wow @Gotejjeken.1267 nailed what they would change.

 

To add further insult to injury I found this thread. 

 

Nice find. Proves that some people really do just want to complain for the sake of complaining.

[kharmin.7683]

22 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Nice find. Proves that some people really do just want to complain for the sake of complaining.

Except the posts found don't directly address this point so ....

[Zyreva.1078]

18 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

The reason for the PvE meta build is due to Strider's Defense change to Strider's Strength and it giving some crazy power when you are wielding a sword.  That, and with two leaps it's of course easier to mindlessly spam attacks on bosses--we are in a facetank boon puke meta after all--so who needs dodging?

As for 'meta PvP build', I do use sword in competitive, but always have (see video on page #2 for me using it in like 2015).  Again, the only reason it hits hard now is strider strength and they overtuned the #2/#3 damage a bit because of how linear the weapon is.

Strider's Strength only results in a 3-5% dmg difference between sword and non sword builds. That's not enough to make up for all the downsides of old sword. Neither in PvE nor in PvP.

18 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

It's all engage all day though, as evidenced by it being 'meta' on a sic' em build--you either burst someone down with it or die.  That has never been the spirit of the sword and is what a lot of us longtimers are upset about. 

That's not how it works, at least when played properly. If you are just mindlessly button mashing on the other hand ...

18 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

That is: "The fact that nobody who wants old sword back used it in content where performance actually matters" is plain wrong as there are still some of us around from when this game took skill and didn't rely on boons / cele gear to carry the bads. 

How is this related to what i wrote?

I have been arround for quite a while too btw and i have used sword with pretty much all of it's different versions quite a lot over the years. It has been my favourite weapon besides GS. This doesn't mean i have to be oblivious about it's shortcomings and i eventually stopped using it for the most part, because it felt increasingly underwhelming with all the powercreep arround. Now i'm back to enjoying it.

15 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

The people who used sword before this change were quite happy with it.

A small minority. How i can know that? They wouldn't have buffed it otherwise. And i'm 100% certain, there are much more players using it now. They just won't post on the forum, because that's mostly done to complain.

On 8/20/2023 at 6:23 PM, kharmin.7683 said:

Still, whether or not the sword was effective for some players and less so for others (depending on content, too), no one asked for these changes.  No one.  There is not one, single thread that I can find in this sub-forum that asked for sword to be changed into what it is now.   That's the entire point.

This forum isn't the only feedback platform. And there have been requests to make sword better. To make skill 2 and 3 worth using in PvE over just autoattacking. To make the evades more reliable. To bring back some "sticking power". To get rid of forced movement, that makes those skills unusable in certain situations. And so on. Just because the changes weren't asked for in every single detail, doesn't mean they are far from what players wanted. And let's be honest, if the devs had asked 10 different players about how they should improve sword, they would have gotten 10 completely different answers.

You can argue that they have taken away some of it's uniqueness, but it is stronger than before in pretty much every regard, and i'm glad they won't listen to people that want to make it worse again.

6 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

For me, that would be a start.  Still, I find the current iteration just kills the Skirmishing line because there isn't really a way to get beside or behind the target using the weapon skills like there was before.  Seems that line is really only useful with shortbow now.  At least, for me.

A single low dmg hit from the side hardly equals "synergy with skirm line". And that's the only thing old serpent strike would enable, because there is no reason for the enemy to not turn towards you right away. Now the increased dmg means, enemies are more likely to actually turn their back and try to run, while the mobility and immob means you are more likely to connect meaningful dmg on someone who is running away. Ofc this primarily applies to PvP. In PvE the increased dmg overall and burst in particular is much more relevant than that single low dmg flanking hit (also against bosses the flanking bonus is now triggered from every side anyway). And dmg is ultimatively the main reason to run skirm in PvE.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Mell.4873]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

This forum isn't the only feedback platform. And there have been requests to make sword better. To make skill 2 and 3 worth using in PvE over just autoattacking. To make the evades more reliable. To bring back some "sticking power". To get rid of forced movement, that makes those skills unusable in certain situations. And so on. Just because the changes weren't asked for in every single detail, doesn't mean they are far from what players wanted. And let's be honest, if the devs had asked 10 different players about how they should improve sword, they would have gotten 10 completely different answers.

I think they also forget you can in a sense, leap backwards in PvP by just un-targeting your enemy and using the skills 2-3. I mean people have been doing this on Greatsword forever.

It actually more of a leap than most skills since elevation prevents this skill from hitting. Which is arguably a bug, but I feel like it's part of the skill.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Mell.4873]

4 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Except the posts found don't directly address this point so ....

Well, you asked if anyone had asked for "These" sword changes. I mean I got pretty close when @Gotejjeken.1267 said he wanted 2&3 swapped which is pretty on point for what they did.
I mean the other changes in the linked threads were just nonsense like ammo on Hornet Sting / Serpent Strike, but ironically 2-3 and just two identical leaps.

 

Honestly most the changes the community wanted were far too complex. Remember this is a Casual game, even the skills before were far too complex for the player base. When you have a million other things to think about, why would I ever want to reset my Monarch's Leap with Hornet Sting; So much busy work in the rotation.

I don't know if you play high level PvP but you need to react fast, messing around with skill resets in not a good idea.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Gotejjeken.1267]

8 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Strider's Strength only results in a 3-5% dmg difference between sword and non sword builds. That's not enough to make up for all the downsides of old sword. Neither in PvE nor in PvP.

Strider's Strength is the reason sPvP is creating salt fields over Pounce because that 3-5% damage is producing some insane burst numbers when played on glass amulets.  It may have been enough to make up for old sword if they would have implemented Strider's Strenth and just buffed the AA and not reworked the entire thing into a DPS weapon.

In PvE yeah, Sword is useless because it is a competitive designed weapon.  So, agree these changes would benefit its use there.  

8 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

That's not how it works, at least when played properly. If you are just mindlessly button mashing on the other hand ...

Can feel free to show demos of kiting old sword vs. new--I think it's pretty objective fact that the new is geared towards engaging all day every day.  Sure, you can about-face your camera, but you could do that (and should have been doing that) with old sword. 

Essentially, one leap replaced both a backward evade and a sidewinding evade (as we always had Monarch's Leap), and an entire trait replaced evasion bonus with vanilla power bonus.  That has little to do with button mashing and a lot more to do with devs wanting it to be DPS--even in the stream they liken Pounce to Warrior's eviscerate. 

They doubled down on that by giving Pounce a power coefficient equal to like level 2 adrenaline Eviscerate for warrior which is kind of like playing football in a soccer field.  The games named the same, but the rules are far different.

As for the last part, it matters because it was a blanket statement that anyone using old sword was just RP'ing and not using it in meaningful content, when a lot of us were straight up wrecking people with it prior to the game becoming Power / Boon Creep Wars.  

[Zyreva.1078]

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Strider's Strength is the reason sPvP is creating salt fields over Pounce because that 3-5% damage is producing some insane burst numbers when played on glass amulets.  It may have been enough to make up for old sword if they would have implemented Strider's Strenth and just buffed the AA and not reworked the entire thing into a DPS weapon.

But sword autos were already decent, so why would they buff those? You aren't supposed to auto spam people to death, that would be kinda dumb.

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think it's pretty objective fact that the new is geared towards engaging all day every day. 

Mobility skills that don't require a target are equally good for engaging and disengaging. None of the sword skills requires a target.

And yes, i could make a video that shows outnumbered kiting and fighting in WvW with sword, and i have also an old one on my yt (very old, from before the previous sword 2 and 3 changes) for comparison. But i'm not setup for recording, haven't done it for years, and can't be bothered to go through all the efford required, just to be rightfully told i'm comparing completely different builds in completely different metas, so sword changes alone can't be the only reason i'm doing better now and those clips mean nothing.

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Essentially, one leap replaced both a backward evade and a sidewinding evade (as we always had Monarch's Leap), and an entire trait replaced evasion bonus with vanilla power bonus.  That has little to do with button mashing and a lot more to do with devs wanting it to be DPS--even in the stream they liken Pounce to Warrior's eviscerate.

They combined the good parts about sword 2 (evade, mobility, poison) added some extras (immob and dmg) and removed the bad parts (evades locked behind other skills/self rooting) and gave a better skill (additional mobility, finisher, burst) in return. I'd rather have 1 good evade + good dmg over 2 bad evades.

Strider's Strength still has an evasion bonus btw.

15 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

As for the last part, it matters because it was a blanket statement that anyone using old sword was just RP'ing and not using it in meaningful content, when a lot of us were straight up wrecking people with it prior to the game becoming Power / Boon Creep Wars.  

That still does not contradict my statement. The vast majority of the game has always been quite easy and casual friendly and optimal builds (or high player "skill") were never required for most things unless you were going for certain challenges, such as speed run records or pvp tournament wins. And that hasn't changed. So what "meaningful" can you (or anyone else who thinks old sword was better) show in somewhat recent history?

No, roaming in WvW does not count, because while it can be challenging, it does not have to be and there is no objective measurement of how successful or strong a player or build is. Similar to casual PvE and ranked/unranked sPvP it's "anything works" territory. Always has been.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Gotejjeken.1267]

4 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

But sword autos were already decent, so why would they buff those? You aren't supposed to auto spam people to death, that would be kinda dumb.

  An example is Shortbow , it is essentially 'auto'ing people to death' as the rest of its kit is utility outside the small condi burst #2 provides. 

Sword was same way pre-animation change as the auto did serious damage (and had a ton of lockon potential)--we can't just neglect the original intent of the weapon and the huge DPS loss that happened when the animation was changed to the vanilla one we have now.

With all the quick spam we have now, we wouldn't be talking about anything else in terms of PvE DPS if the original animation was intact because it was sustained unlike the usual burst suspects (OH axe #5).

4 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Mobility skills that don't require a target are equally good for engaging and disengaging. None of the sword skills requires a target.

Wasting leaps to disengage is a bad practice, sorta like dodge rolling to engage instead of using a skill. 

We lost the actual disengage portion of sword in hornet sting which is the issue; essentially since none of our OH's are defensive sword does not get the luxury to utilize something like SB #3, GS #3 or Staff #3 as a disengage, because allof those have additional defenses (block, CC, vine, wall, etc.).  This may change if OH Mace is defensive, who knows.

4 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

That still does not contradict my statement. The vast majority of the game has always been quite easy and casual friendly and optimal builds (or high player "skill") were never required for most things unless you were going for certain challenges, such as speed run records or pvp tournament wins. And that hasn't changed. So what "meaningful" can you (or anyone else who thinks old sword was better) show in somewhat recent history?

Ranked sPvP--S/D was used there a lot pre-OH dagger nerf (removal of Offhand Training / #4 range) and power creep leaving sword damage behind.

Outside that, i'm not sure the vast majority of the game has been easy though, even things like Orr and all HoT maps have a history of wrecking casuals (especially pre-mount).  So, the evade portions of sword could help there, basically anywhere that isn't a DPS fest (stationary bosses).  

4 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Strider's Strength still has an evasion bonus btw.

One stack of might vs 2s~3s of Quickness (factoring in most people run boon duration gear of some sort) is a huge nerf.  They'd have to buff that to at least 2-3 stacks to make trying to kite for might viable.  

4 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

No, roaming in WvW does not count, because while it can be challenging, it does not have to be and there is no objective measurement of how successful or strong a player or build is. Similar to casual PvE and ranked/unranked sPvP it's "anything works" territory. Always has been.

Dueling is a thing in WvW.  While not usually my thing it does provide pretty accurate measurement of both small scale GvG clashes and 1v1 potential.  I mean, Roy literally balances WvW partially around what he wins or loses to in GvGs...

Edited August 22, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Don't know why such long essays, if the debate is exactly at the same point when I last read it a few days ago...!?

Is it so hard on the ego to admit that having two skills on ranger sword that do exactly the same is just pointless to say the least?

The question as to why ANet decided to change the animation on skill 3 still remains.

Nobody asked for those changes and the skill was fine just the way it was.

Also, stating that ANet never reverts changes, it's false information. 

They have done that before many times.

People arguing just for the sake of it, is a waste of time and just spams the forums; especially spewing out false information... just so in order to win an argument.

If the devs see that the request is within reason and logic, they will revert changes, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Imo, I believe these changes are a temporary experiment/test, and they will be reverted or improved. But it's just mere speculation at this point, because I do not believe ANet would make such a decision... to make two skills do exactly the same without a good reason.

I just hope skill 3 gets reverted back to its previous version soon.

 

Edited August 23, 2023 by SoulGuardian.6203

[Zyreva.1078]

19 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Wasting leaps to disengage is a bad practice

Guess everyone has been doing it wrong since release on pretty much every single class, but surely you know better ...

There's more nonsense, but this is clearly not going anywhere, so i'm out.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

There's more nonsense, but this is clearly not going anywhere, so i'm out.

If the 'more nonsense' includes me, convenient how you ignore the post directly above yours reinforcing the same points I've been trying to get across for forever now in this topic.  

Anyway, yes, we are going in circles--will just have to see what the devs do.