Weaponmaster Training Beta Feedback: Thief

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

7 hours ago, Batalix.2873 said:

Only if Revenant and Ranger get focus first. Giving it to thief before either of those feels wrong to me.

Focus is primarily about magic and support. Thief is one of the least magically-inclined professions in the game, behind Engi and Warrior. And Thief is easily the most selfish profession as an identity, with only Necro coming close.

Both Rev and Ranger have stronger associations with both magic and support skills. I would rather those identities be bolstered more and Thief's emphasis on evasion and mobility capitalized first. Not giving priorities to weapon assignments that actually make sense and maintain profession niches is just going to further break down a lack of job fantasies in this game.

I disagree on the rev and others getting offhand focus. Thief would be the only one getting the focus because a focus is meant for just that, focus and concentration of magic 🎩 ✨️. The other classes have already a strong sense of support for groups in game as where a thief or specter do not as well as thief lacking aoe potential.

[Batalix.2873]

9 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

I disagree on the rev and others getting offhand focus. Thief would be the only one getting the focus because a focus is meant for just that, focus and concentration of magic 🎩 ✨️. The other classes have already a strong sense of support for groups in game as where a thief or specter do not as well as thief lacking aoe potential.

But thief is a very low magic concept. It uses venoms, deceptions, preparations. It uses initiative, stealth, and stealing. Apart from shadow magic thief barely has any reason to want a focus.

I'm not saying it couldn't work on thief. It's better than GS, longbow, hammer, or warhorn. But Rev calling an archmage through the mists and/or casting a bunch of ice magic is absolutely meriting a focus. And similarly Ranger summoning/enhancing beasts would also be quite on brand. Thief...would largely only be getting focus to justify the weird, lazy Necro-encroaching copypasta that is Specter.

It would be...fine. But I would riot a little bit if Rev/Ranger didn't also get focus.

[Bankrotas.8215]

11 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

But thief is a very low magic concept. It

There's not a single profession in GW2 that isn't a mage. Venoms are basically enchantments from black magic school. The only non-magic venoms are ones you can apply from you backpack. 

[Batalix.2873]

11 minutes ago, Bankrotas.8215 said:

There's not a single profession in GW2 that isn't a mage. Venoms are basically enchantments from black magic school. The only non-magic venoms are ones you can apply from you backpack. 

The Scholar professions are unambiguously pure mages. Guardian is more mage than not. Rev is more mage than not. Ranger is about half mage, maybe a bit less.

Thief as the fantasy is implemented is decidedly more non-mage than mage. None of its core weapons are used magically. Its main mechanic is initiative, and its main submechanic are dodging and stealth, all of which are very physically oriented and require no magical explanation.

I think it is a good thing, it gives thief an appropriate niche in the game. But it is not remotely as magically oriented as other classes, some of which still do not have a focus.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

guys it doesn't really matter if this fits the lore or what not, we simply are in a need for another offhand.

And focus would make sense in terms of having and non „physical“ offhand that maybe is used for more than just get in stealth

[ThatGuy.6123]

Im just adding in to make sure it gets seen that the scepter doesn't generate malice with deadeye.

[Strutter.2719]

I'm not sure I really want focus offhand but sceptre was better than I expected so I'm more open to it. 

Plenty of options for offhand weapons since we only have 2 currently. I'd be interested in offhand axe, sword or mace since they could give some cool options for dual skills. 

[Pomdepin.7068]

On 6/28/2023 at 10:26 PM, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

My only concern with the thief portion right now is that if you took specter to use other weapons, you cant really do much with it because the balance team still has not yet increased or reverted the initiative starting out on specter as BASE initiative...which will make other weapons useless on specter. please look into this

I don't even understand why they lowered the initiative for Spectre to begin with. Makes 0 sense and makes core weapons weaker on it. This will have to be addressed and rebalanced.

[ZerFrost.3542]

14 hours ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

I disagree on the rev and others getting offhand focus. Thief would be the only one getting the focus because a focus is meant for just that, focus and concentration of magic 🎩 ✨️. The other classes have already a strong sense of support for groups in game as where a thief or specter do not as well as thief lacking aoe potential.

They need offhand sword, or give them GS. Every class with a GS is a slow hitter, thief could be that one class where they could hit fast with it. Also people syaing thief doesnt need gs doesnt make sense, im thinking off Sephiroth and washingpole, Bleach.

[ZerFrost.3542]

6 hours ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

guys it doesn't really matter if this fits the lore or what not, we simply are in a need for another offhand.

And focus would make sense in terms of having and non „physical“ offhand that maybe is used for more than just get in stealth

True, thief does need more offhands. This was my thought when i started the game 10yo, is that thief should be the only profession in the mid class that should be able to MH/OH every single 1MH weapon they get. 

[GetFoxxed.9478]

Give us off-hand axe instead. Thief has enough main-hand options as it is.

[Felices Bladewing.3914]

57 minutes ago, ZerFrost.3542 said:

They need offhand sword, or give them GS. Every class with a GS is a slow hitter, thief could be that one class where they could hit fast with it. Also people syaing thief doesnt need gs doesnt make sense, im thinking off Sephiroth and washingpole, Bleach.

I might step on many toes but i don’t see the idea of sword offhand besides from the looks, what should it actually providing?

in the thief arsenal sword is kinda the cc and utility weapon, both our offhands provide this already.

A block could fit into sword offhand but a block has no synergy as thief’s defense is more focused around dodge movement and stealth.

so in order to have a place, it would have to be a pure damage offhand to fit also thematically and i doubt this will be an interesting addition to be honest, but thats just my take on that.

[TheThief.8475]

1 hour ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

I might step on many toes but i don’t see the idea of sword offhand besides from the looks, what should it actually providing?

in the thief arsenal sword is kinda the cc and utility weapon, both our offhands provide this already.

A block could fit into sword offhand but a block has no synergy as thief’s defense is more focused around dodge movement and stealth.

so in order to have a place, it would have to be a pure damage offhand to fit also thematically and i doubt this will be an interesting addition to be honest, but thats just my take on that.

Sword aa chain is almost as powerful as dagger. With a decent dual wield skill the damage potential for dual swords could be really good.

Also new skill 4 and 5 could have damage damage buffs for x seconds or for the next attack (as an example- to prevent the classic spam the strongest skill forever gameplay of daredevil) or another AoE option which is always good on thief.

Just some ideas/ examples of what dual swords could provide. And yes ofc they also looks sick

[Batalix.2873]

6 hours ago, Felices Bladewing.3914 said:

I might step on many toes but i don’t see the idea of sword offhand besides from the looks, what should it actually providing?

in the thief arsenal sword is kinda the cc and utility weapon, both our offhands provide this already.

A block could fit into sword offhand but a block has no synergy as thief’s defense is more focused around dodge movement and stealth.

so in order to have a place, it would have to be a pure damage offhand to fit also thematically and i doubt this will be an interesting addition to be honest, but thats just my take on that.

Grapple-rope sword or axe for mobility and/or gap-closing. And as TheThief just said, dual-wield mixups, although that's really the same for any OH weapon.

I'm sure there are other ways they could make OH sword interesting and not just CC--OH weapons often have a lot of additional utility features and don't match the same functionality as their MH counterpart.

It's really more the principle of preserving profession identity. When you think of generally where weapons lie on two spectrums: weapon-to-profession and profession-over-other-professions, double-sword Thief is something that I think a lot of people might be surprised we don't already have. And while I personally am fine with Thief not having an OH sword just to better differentiate it from Warrior and Revenant, no way in hell am I okay with any profession like Necro getting double swords before Thief.

I guess a lot of my argument here then is mostly colored by the astoundingly off-flavor decision to give Necro double swords. Necro overwhelmingly is not flavorfully a melee-bruiser. It is a mage, and a fairly tanky one compared to Mesmer and Ele. Core Necro should have OH *shield* paired with sword, not this dumb WB/ninja fantasy.

[Riot Inducer.8964]

Did a good tour through the thief options. 

Staff is seriously good on deadeye, very much keeps up with D/D which is great.

Scepter seems like a solid pick for condi Daredevil. Sadly can't really test any Deadeye interactions since its bugged.

Rifle seems fun on Daredevil but not really a primary pick at least for PvE.

Honestly I can't really find a way to make rifle or staff work on Specter, just not anything solid to make a power weapon worthwhile there imo. 

All that said I will throw in my two cents in that I wish the upcoming weapon included an off-hand option. Thief really needs another option there. Sword, Torch, Focus, something, anything really. 

[Venport.3925]

On 7/1/2023 at 6:13 PM, Batalix.2873 said:

But thief is a very low magic concept. It uses venoms, deceptions, preparations. It uses initiative, stealth, and stealing. Apart from shadow magic thief barely has any reason to want a focus.

I'm not saying it couldn't work on thief. It's better than GS, longbow, hammer, or warhorn. But Rev calling an archmage through the mists and/or casting a bunch of ice magic is absolutely meriting a focus. And similarly Ranger summoning/enhancing beasts would also be quite on brand. Thief...would largely only be getting focus to justify the weird, lazy Necro-encroaching copypasta that is Specter.

It would be...fine. But I would riot a little bit if Rev/Ranger didn't also get focus.

If you paid attention to the lore of GW2 and guild wars as a whole, all of the professions are based on magic, nothing more than your AA chain (and even that usually has some magic associated with it) is not magical in nature to a degree. Thieves just focus on magic of a more practical nature with shadow and deception magic being their specialties

So no thief getting focus doesn't break a "low magic concept" because no class in the game is low magic 

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

9 hours ago, Venport.3925 said:

If you paid attention to the lore of GW2 and guild wars as a whole, all of the professions are based on magic, nothing more than your AA chain (and even that usually has some magic associated with it) is not magical in nature to a degree. Thieves just focus on magic of a more practical nature with shadow and deception magic being their specialties

So no thief getting focus doesn't break a "low magic concept" because no class in the game is low magic 

Not going on lore, going on purpose of what a focus is..hell it's even in the name...fooooocuuussss

[Padra.1678]

Here is my feedback: 

Secpter does not generate malice in deadeye spec. This needs to be fixed.

Specter cannot make use of the new weapons because it lacks  initiative to do any dame with them. this needs to be fixed.

Rifle is useless outside of deadeye due to death judement doing way less damage without a marked target. This shouldent be.

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Padra.1678

[Sorasnobody.9350]

My final notes on the beta weekend, not got as many for Thief. Unfortunately I ran into a bug where scepter skills were not granting malice so I couldn't really try anything. I did however try one whacky build which made me laugh how it was actually working (to a degree, let me clarify 🤣) Same preface, this is from a solo play perspective, with one instanced build as an additional perspective.

Deadeye:

Scepter/dagger -

The only thing I can say about this is, it can achieve 25 might and permanent fury/quickness, as that is as far as I was able to practice with my utility skill choices for solo. As I mentioned, I could go any further with this due to malice not working properly. However, I feel this could be a potent solo build once that works as Cloak and Dagger is 5 malice generation, a perfect amount, and then you can fill your revealed time with two Twilight Assault casts. Scepter's stealth attack has always felt so slow, hence why I never try solo Specter builds, but this having quickness means you can blast that thing really quick which I love the sound of! I am intrigued to give this one a go gain after Secrets of the Obscure comes out!

Heal Quickness Deadeye - scepter/pistol & sword/pistol

A massive meme I know. I just remember a guildie saying "James, why can't you just deadeye heal man?" and well, you technically can now 🤣 it can achieve 25 might, fury, quickness, regeneration, swiftness, vigor, and decent protection up-time. It has a fair amount of barrier access due to scepter, but I did find I was dying on moderately threatening. Yes, me, not my friend who was in there with me, but then once I died, they went down too, which is unfortunate. This also carries no stability/aegis or group break-stuns so you'd be pretty useless on stab-requiring fights. It was a fun concept to try though!

 

I didn't check anything else as my brain didn't even consider other builds, but I'm intrigued to give some Thief action ago again once the expansion is out!

 

Bug(s):

• Even when you have a target marked with Deadeye's mark, malice is not being granted from scepter/dagger skills. I did try Cloak and Dagger but that wasn't working either it seems. Might be because its paired with scepter and that is foreign to the weapons malice mechanic works with right now. I'm sure it can be fixed though!

Edited July 4, 2023 by Sorasnobody.9350

[Dante.1508]

On 6/29/2023 at 3:51 AM, javialf.2384 said:

I can't wait for rifle DD, but im kinda worried with the synergies of Specter since is condition based, but im sure condi DD scepter will be fantastic!

It might be good with torment and bleed runes?

This whole test seemed a bit gimmicky to be honest. Many of the weapons don't even work with other specs.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Dante.1508

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

10 hours ago, Padra.1678 said:

Here is my feedback: 

Secpter does not generate malice in deadeye spec. This needs to be fixed.

Specter cannot make use of the new weapons because it lacks  initiative to do any dame with them. this needs to be fixed.

Rifle is useless outside of deadeye due to death judement doing way less damage without a marked target. This shouldent be.

 

 

 

All they'd have to do to fix rifle on other specs would be compensate non deadeye spec stealth attacks modifiers

[DeceiverX.8361]

1 hour ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

All they'd have to do to fix rifle on other specs would be compensate non deadeye spec stealth attacks modifiers

It'd have to be a very small buff.  SA DrD gets a lot of stealth uptime and the leap through Sniper's Cover via Bound is strictly better than Silent Scope.

If stealth attacking becomes even somewhat strong this way, Rifle Daredevil just becomes superior to rifle DE in competitive.

DrD and DE are misses in terms of their design because the former is just a better version of core while the latter's design is inherently incompatible with the gameplay patterns intended to be played by core, which is why I warned against the stealthy sniper concept when proposing DE years ago and trying to make it compatible with the most builds and weapon options lol.

 

[Strutter.2719]

On 7/2/2023 at 1:42 PM, Pomdepin.7068 said:

I don't even understand why they lowered the initiative for Spectre to begin with. Makes 0 sense and makes core weapons weaker on it. This will have to be addressed and rebalanced.

Since every elite spec is supposed to have a trade off to balance the additional class mechanic, I suspect they just picked this since they were running out of ideas besides just changing steal.  Honestly it makes no sense to initiative was lowered and it will seriously hinder any use of alternative elite spec weapons.

[Impling.4170]

Personal opinion about Shallow Grave is that it is a welcome addition to the kit, but currently undertuned in PvP/WvW. While the PvE amount of 3 condis transferred/cleansed would be too high for competitive modes, the trait would greatly benefit from being increased to 2 for both enemy and ally Siphon. I was actually really hyped for this trait when it was announced, but currently much prefer the flat condi damage increase, and Consume Shadows feels like it acts as more of a detriment than a benefit in any of the builds I run in PvP/WvW.

[Venport.3925]

56 minutes ago, Impling.4170 said:

Personal opinion about Shallow Grave is that it is a welcome addition to the kit, but currently undertuned in PvP/WvW. While the PvE amount of 3 condis transferred/cleansed would be too high for competitive modes, the trait would greatly benefit from being increased to 2 for both enemy and ally Siphon. I was actually really hyped for this trait when it was announced, but currently much prefer the flat condi damage increase, and Consume Shadows feels like it acts as more of a detriment than a benefit in any of the builds I run in PvP/WvW.

I just wish they had let us keep shallow grave as the revive trait and buffed/tweaked one of the less interesting flavorful specter traits in the same tier or you know, updated the grandmaster trait that already did pretty much the same thing but worse?