quickness is easy now, people are way overreacting

[Stalima.5490]

heres an easy combo:

Blast gyro > function gyro > throw mine

 

Congratulations you now have full uptime.  In fact your quickness uptime is so high that the maximum can't even contain the amount of quickness you can put out with all the finishers you can do

Even more rediculous, once the mace is released, you will be to 1-button maintain quickness in a party with alot of fields going down.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[Bomboed.5697]

Function gyro is a res/stomp and should not be wasted to keep 100% uptime

[Nephalem.8921]

52 minutes ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Function gyro is a res/stomp and should not be wasted to keep 100% uptime

You dont have to. In 2 months healscrapper needs just mace. Currently flamethrower on its own can provide perma. Dps scrapper just needs another skill on top of mine or more bd if you want to spare f5 because dps builds are always build on edge unlike heal builds.

[shion.2084]

2 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

heres an easy combo:

Blast gyro > function gyro > throw mine

 

Congratulations you now have full uptime.  In fact your quickness uptime is so high that the maximum can't even contain the amount of quickness you can put out with all the finishers you can do

Even more rediculous, once the mace is released, you will be to 1-button maintain quickness in a party with alot of fields going down.

Errr... please preface with In PVE 🙂

In PvP the changes to kinetic accelerator are a straight nerf.

[Stalima.5490]

4 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Errr... please preface with In PVE 🙂

In PvP the changes to kinetic accelerator are a straight nerf.

perhaps, but it also opens up different build paths since your blast gyro rocket charge combo now gives you the equivilent of 3 gyros of the old system, the only awkwardness is that they broke some of the chrono rune sync for pvp.

What is interesting to note is that you can trigger the trait with our standard healing turret blast combo so heal turret blasting might find it's way back into a more mainstream use on scrapper.

If they really wanted to solidify the scrapper as a really weighty profession they could probably change the sneak gyro instead into an ability that simply grabs a gyro and slams it on the ground creating a smoke field and blast finish.

[Jerus.4350]

1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

Function gyro is a res/stomp and should not be wasted to keep 100% uptime

It’s called opportunity costs, if you want to save function gyro build for it, it’s quite easy.  Actually condi quick Scrapper has that basically built in already and hScrapper has so many options it’s silly (take FT and it’s like 70%+ uptime alone).  Power qScrapper you can take healing turret and save the function gyro.

 

We have so many options right now, find one that works for you.

[shion.2084]

5 minutes ago, Stalima.5490 said:

perhaps, but it also opens up different build paths since your blast gyro rocket charge combo now gives you the equivilent of 3 gyros of the old system, the only awkwardness is that they broke some of the chrono rune sync for pvp.

What is interesting to note is that you can trigger the trait with our standard healing turret blast combo so heal turret blasting might find it's way back into a more mainstream use on scrapper.

If they really wanted to solidify the scrapper as a really weighty profession they could probably change the sneak gyro instead into an ability that simply grabs a gyro and slams it on the ground creating a smoke field and blast finish.

So one issue is, the old K.A. gave you the boon on superspeed.  So while your right that I can get three gyros worth of effectiveness by burning my one mobility/evade skill and my Res/stomp skill preemptively, I didn't use to have to use gyros for the boons.   I had many more potential sources of access to this boon that were instant to apply and thus viable in PvP.  

Hard Nerf.

When I wanted to open an attack from range (cause who is dumb enough to try to burst a Necro with wells around them in mele), I would simply start with something like my heal gyro toolbelt.    Instantly I'd have fury, making my ranged attacks more effective.    Now I have two options... burn my stomp res skill, or spend several seconds using my one movement/evade / ultimate mele assault skill up against no target jumping in a field... and hope they stand there when I'm done and don't LOS me.

Hard Nerf.

The meta build only has 2 blasts and a leap.  The leap is your prime hammer skill.  It lets your super glass self survive in mele with its evade, while stunning because of the lighting field which you will always combo it with when starting mele combat.  The only other time to use it is to escape, as a mobility tool.  You absolutely do not want to use it randomly bouncing around at range, when its what you are planning to use for your actual mele assault.

Let's look at blast gyro.  You use to get the boon on turning on blast gyro AND with blast gyros toolbelt.   Now you only get it at the very end of blast gyro.   So a primary use of blast gyro is that it's your only unblockable stun.   So you want to be threatening in mele and trying to keep that circle of obviousness over as many opponents is possible.  BEFORE you use to get your boon when you turned it on... now you have the whole count down before your boons kick in.  

Burning your function gyro at the start of combat for this boon?  bad idea... you want the OPTION to use function gyro offensively, not to be forced into it to be effective.  If you are using function gyro offensively, you generally want to keep it in reserve. Function Gyros lighting field was a good option for players who stun broke out of thunderclap, you then cover the area they moved to with function gyro's lighting field and then rocket charged in it for a second stun assault.

But you wanted the boons on you before you started that in the first place, not somewhere in the middle of the fight.

Hard Nerf(s).

Essentially these changes have very significant but subtle impacts to how scrapper can be used and its setups.  These are extrordinarily signifcant to its viability agains the folks I play against.  They've significantly reduced the strategy and options you have and pigeon holed us into obvious attack patterns.   That's just too readable and the good folks are eating me alive now if I want these boons to be useful.

Perhaps the worst par this They have essentially exacerbated the style of play, the stealth gank, that everyone disliked the class for.   That one remains un-affected by this (aside from not wanting to rocket jump in stealth at the start of it for smoke field addd on).  Because it was the braindead variant that sneaks right into mele and opens its one big blasting, bouncing burst, and then runs away.   That's the option that these changes fit best with.

So in summary, a vast limiting of effective styles of play, less access to the boon, and the need to burn strategically important skills to get a boon for a situation in which you don't need those very limited skills for.

[Stalima.5490]

48 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

So one issue is, the old K.A. gave you the boon on superspeed.  So while your right that I can get three gyros worth of effectiveness by burning my one mobility/evade skill and my Res/stomp skill preemptively, I didn't use to have to use gyros for the boons.   I had many more potential sources of access to this boon that were instant to apply and thus viable in PvP.  

Hard Nerf.

When I wanted to open an attack from range (cause who is dumb enough to try to burst a Necro with wells around them in mele), I would simply start with something like my heal gyro toolbelt.    Instantly I'd have fury, making my ranged attacks more effective.    Now I have two options... burn my stomp res skill, or spend several seconds using my one movement/evade / ultimate mele assault skill up against no target jumping in a field... and hope they stand there when I'm done and don't LOS me.

Hard Nerf.

The meta build only has 2 blasts and a leap.  The leap is your prime hammer skill.  It lets your super glass self survive in mele with its evade, while stunning because of the lighting field which you will always combo it with when starting mele combat.  The only other time to use it is to escape, as a mobility tool.  You absolutely do not want to use it randomly bouncing around at range, when its what you are planning to use for your actual mele assault.

Let's look at blast gyro.  You use to get the boon on turning on blast gyro AND with blast gyros toolbelt.   Now you only get it at the very end of blast gyro.   So a primary use of blast gyro is that it's your only unblockable stun.   So you want to be threatening in mele and trying to keep that circle of obviousness over as many opponents is possible.  BEFORE you use to get your boon when you turned it on... now you have the whole count down before your boons kick in.  

Burning your function gyro at the start of combat for this boon?  bad idea... you want the OPTION to use function gyro offensively, not to be forced into it to be effective.  If you are using function gyro offensively, you generally want to keep it in reserve. Function Gyros lighting field was a good option for players who stun broke out of thunderclap, you then cover the area they moved to with function gyro's lighting field and then rocket charged in it for a second stun assault.

But you wanted the boons on you before you started that in the first place, not somewhere in the middle of the fight.

Hard Nerf(s).

Essentially these changes have very significant but subtle impacts to how scrapper can be used and its setups.  These are extrordinarily signifcant to its viability agains the folks I play against.  They've significantly reduced the strategy and options you have and pigeon holed us into obvious attack patterns.   That's just too readable and the good folks are eating me alive now if I want these boons to be useful.

Perhaps the worst par this They have essentially exacerbated the style of play, the stealth gank, that everyone disliked the class for.   That one remains un-affected by this (aside from not wanting to rocket jump in stealth at the start of it for smoke field addd on).  Because it was the braindead variant that sneaks right into mele and opens its one big blasting, bouncing burst, and then runs away.   That's the option that these changes fit best with.

So in summary, a vast limiting of effective styles of play, less access to the boon, and the need to burn strategically important skills to get a boon for a situation in which you don't need those very limited skills for.

If anything it opens the options up because the trait now syncronises very well with expert examination which would become alot stronger due to alot of our crowd control either placing a field or having a blast finisher.

For example, your function gyro can now daze, apply vuln, weakness, might, fury, swiftness, barrier, cleanse a condition, vigor with 10% dmg up, I think you get the point, this function gyro can be massively bloated out now if you want.

Bizzarely with flashbang and Lock on, you can actually open a fight by instantly applying 21 stacks of vulnerability just off the function gyro.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Stalima.5490

[shion.2084]

2 hours ago, Stalima.5490 said:

If anything it opens the options up because the trait now syncronises very well with expert examination which would become alot stronger due to alot of our crowd control either placing a field or having a blast finisher.

For example, your function gyro can now daze, apply vuln, weakness, might, fury, swiftness, barrier, cleanse a condition, vigor with 10% dmg up, I think you get the point, this function gyro can be massively bloated out now if you want.

Bizzarely with flashbang and Lock on, you can actually open a fight by instantly applying 21 stacks of vulnerability just off the function gyro.

I’d rather not have those boons on my emergency remote stomp and Rez utility.  I want my combat boons to be related to actions I want to open combat with.  My gyro is my reserve

 

putting evwrrything on one skill is the opposite of flexibility.  I want those skills where I don’t have to burn a Rez for no good reason

Edited June 29, 2023 by shion.2084

[shion.2084]

I will say that I am going to amuse myself with a trained out Rez gyro now though… that’s just to stupid not to meme with.   Maybe people will complain and they’ll “nerf” us back to the old behavior.

Edited June 29, 2023 by shion.2084

[shaz.8572]

I vote that they modify the trait a bit further, Instead of only blast and leaps, how about ALSO including WHIRL finishers given that would give us a third way to apply boons, but it would fit in really nicely with the current scrapper finishers, one whirl on hammer in addition to the current two application methods. 

Could also consider adding explosions to the mix, but again too many options may allow for a huge overload, maybe have a ICD potentially between all these applications sources? 

Arent they working on moving away from only ONE way to play a class, this might make some additional options for people if the current methods are too hard to use. 

Heck the more i play scrapper, the more options im finding, example here are all the class blast and leap finishers i have noticed. 

Beyond the hammer and gyros. 

weapons: rifle, shield, sword, mace

heals: med kit

utilities: thumper turret, flame thrower, elixir gun, throw mine, rocket boots 

elite: supply crate 

tool belt skills: bomb kit, thumper turret

If they allowed whirl skills that might allow 3-4 more options to apply quickness. 

Over all i can see that if they allowed any more it might be too many choices. 

They might have to tweak the numbers a bit more, but over all from when they release the beta weapons this will leave us in a lot better spot even in things dont change back, there is more changes so we might just have to see how it plays out. 

 

[Stalima.5490]

2 hours ago, shaz.8572 said:

I vote that they modify the trait a bit further, Instead of only blast and leaps, how about ALSO including WHIRL finishers given that would give us a third way to apply boons, but it would fit in really nicely with the current scrapper finishers, one whirl on hammer in addition to the current two application methods. 

I would have to vote no on this because then the scrapper would either not need to invest into concentration for quickness uptime or would basically just fill out 2 entire groups with quickness without much effort.

[AlPower.2476]

Blast Gyro is unnecesary.

I think Healing turret, grenade, Throw Mine, shredder gyro and mortar kit is a best option.

Healing turret can be used as a precast. However, if you're not in a "Big duck DPS team" you can replace Shredder gyro for blast one and save your function gyro if you prefer to use it for rez.

Nevertheless; PvP one is a big nerf. There's no argue about it. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

1 hour ago, AlPower.2476 said:

Blast Gyro is unnecesary.

I think Healing turret, grenade, Throw Mine, shredder gyro and mortar kit is a best option.

Healing turret can be used as a precast. However, if you're not in a "Big duck DPS team" you can replace Shredder gyro for blast one and save your function gyro if you prefer to use it for rez.

Nevertheless; PvP one is a big nerf. There's no argue about it. 

these skilled are not used on quickheal scrapper, only on quickdps scrapper. the healer scrapper basically has no way to upkeep quickness without sacrificing some form of support, especially their rezz skill. for example someone mentioned using thumper turret, but detonating it gives up the protection pulse.

 

currently flamethrower works but having to constantly drop out of medkit for it feels bad.

Edited June 30, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Stalima.5490]

1 hour ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

these skilled are not used on quickheal scrapper, only on quickdps scrapper. the healer scrapper basically has no way to upkeep quickness without sacrificing some form of support, especially their rezz skill. for example someone mentioned using thumper turret, but detonating it gives up the protection pulse.

 

currently flamethrower works but having to constantly drop out of medkit for it feels bad.

but scrapper isn't even remotely designed to be a healer... why would you complain about it being worse at something it was never intended to do... Just play core if you want to be a healer it is the exact same as scrapper but with better healing capability.

[Tuskali.6417]

I don´t agree with "people overreacting". The rotation is less fun and feels clunky in many situations. Also there are issues in terms of mobility. Especially if you´re playing a lot of open world. 90% of all scrapper mains don´t like or straight up hate the changes. People like you are the minority by far when you take a look on reddit or here.

And it´s not necessarily about 100% uptime. It´s the feeling of the playstyle. You do more damage and that´s a good thing but not at the cost of this clunkiness.

And what the hell do you mean by "it´s easy now". It was much easier before the patch. And it felt better.

Literally no one wanted this change except for approximately 2 players who raid.

Scrapper is my favourite engi spec because it´s enhancing the core engi flavor. In theory using combo fields could enhance that even more but not in the current state. Pre patch scrapper had it´s issues I guess but this patch was not a good solution.

It´s okay to have other opinions but you have to acknowledge the opinion of the majority of players. What are the changes good for if you lose 50 players who don´t enjoy the class anymore for every 2-3 players who like the changes.

And the majority does not like playing scrapper as it is now.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Tuskali.6417

[shion.2084]

4 hours ago, Tuskali.6417 said:

I don´t agree with "people overreacting". The rotation is less fun and feels clunky in many situations. Also there are issues in terms of mobility. Especially if you´re playing a lot of open world. 90% of all scrapper mains don´t like or straight up hate the changes. People like you are the minority by far when you take a look on reddit or here.

And it´s not necessarily about 100% uptime. It´s the feeling of the playstyle. You do more damage and that´s a good thing but not at the cost of this clunkiness.

And what the hell do you mean by "it´s easy now". It was much easier before the patch. And it felt better.

Literally no one wanted this change except for approximately 2 players who raid.

Scrapper is my favourite engi spec because it´s enhancing the core engi flavor. In theory using combo fields could enhance that even more but not in the current state. Pre patch scrapper had it´s issues I guess but this patch was not a good solution.

It´s okay to have other opinions but you have to acknowledge the opinion of the majority of players. What are the changes good for if you lose 50 players who don´t enjoy the class anymore for every 2-3 players who like the changes.

And the majority does not like playing scrapper as it is now.

I'm not reddit savvy... where do you go on redit to see a list of threads (and maybe find ones related to scrapper)?

 

[Tuskali.6417]

17 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

I'm not reddit savvy... where do you go on redit to see a list of threads (and maybe find ones related to scrapper)?

 

The title is "Scrapper mains and enjoyers".

81 comments, 70-ish people don´t like scrapper as it is now, 2-3 people are fine with it and the rest are more or less neutral comments.

*Source:

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Tuskali.6417

[loregnum.3619]

Completely agree with everything Tuskali said. I am a mainly solo open world player and really liked scrapper before as it was fun. It is not fun now and feels incredibly clunky. I couldn't care less if by some chance I am doing more dps now and my quickness might actually be lasting longer when I get it going since I play video games for fun and this is not fun. Scrapper went from being what was basically my co-main to now being dead to me. That sucks.

It's a horrible change right now and again as Tuskali stated, the large majority of scrapper players hate it. I also don't care if say 5 or 10% of scrapper players like this new style. Tiny minorities aren't supposed to dictate how things are. You could at least make the argument if say 40-50% like it but that is not the case and they need to read the room on this and make changes sooner than later. 

Edited June 30, 2023 by loregnum.3619

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

On 6/30/2023 at 4:56 AM, Stalima.5490 said:

but scrapper isn't even remotely designed to be a healer... why would you complain about it being worse at something it was never intended to do... Just play core if you want to be a healer it is the exact same as scrapper but with better healing capability.

quickheal scrapper was one of the most efficient builds in the game, especially in wvw and in pve for instanced content since the superspeed and stealth was a hard carry.

 

it was probably the second most common support build next to healbrand.

Edited July 2, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[AlPower.2476]

8 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

these skilled are not used on quickheal scrapper, only on quickdps scrapper. the healer scrapper basically has no way to upkeep quickness without sacrificing some form of support, especially their rezz skill. for example someone mentioned using thumper turret, but detonating it gives up the protection pulse.

 

That's either true.

They also nerfed medkit so is even worst for support one 

[Raven.1793]

Scrapper main here. I don't care if I can maintain overcap quickness in full zerker. I did better dps before in 50% diviner and I want my fun reactive gameplay and utility back. Rocket Charge used to be an asset, it's now a liability.

[Calen.8945]

It's not as "dead" as I first thought it would be, but quickness is not as easy to keep us as before.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

true, ppl overeacting, the only think that changed is you can bring more utylites now, and your not depended on gyros that much

also you have more blast finishers, then superspeed skills

 

i personaly have more fun with new playstyle, as with x2 more quickness now, i can focus more on healing as qhs, or as qdps, i can more focus on water field blasts/leaps for aoe healing, even supply crate apply quickness now

Edited July 2, 2023 by Noah Salazar.5430

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

7 hours ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

true, ppl overeacting, the only think that changed is you can bring more utylites now, and your not depended on gyros that much

also you have more blast finishers, then superspeed skills

 

i personaly have more fun with new playstyle, as with x2 more quickness now, i can focus more on healing as qhs, or as qdps, i can more focus on water field blasts/leaps for aoe healing, even supply crate apply quickness now

how do you focus on healing when you're constantly trying to execute finishers? medkit is the main source of healing on quickheal scrapper and pretty much has to be camped.

 

how are you also bringing enough utilities to give permanent boons (might, fury, protection, regeneration) and superspeed for highly mobile fights like old lion's court? if you're relying on supply crate, what do you do about allies expecting you to bring stealth gyro for skips, like in all dungeons and most fractals?

 

other players claim to have solutions, but it seems like they've created only very basic support builds. quickheal scrapper already had alot of limitations compared to hb & ham before this and its worse now.

Edited July 2, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134