Class fantasy vs class usability

[Tazer.2157]

So ever since alacrity and quickness became required boons to do instanced content, the devs made a choice to give these boons to every class. A welcome change, one that made the game better. But somewhere along the way, these boons took preference over the core mechanic of the class and began to change the way we play them. My observation is based on how quickness and alacrity are given out by the untamed and the druid class only, and even though other classes might have more straightforward boon application, my point still holds.

Now as a druid, to give out alacrity we need to use our celestial avatar skills, and as an untamed, we share quickness when we use the unleashed ambush skill which refreshes when we swap weapons.  In both these cases the boon application is unnecessarily tied to other actions and forces a rotation on the class. So, now if I were to play quickness untamed I would need to constantly jump in and out of the unleashed state, swap weapons and repeat. While for alac druid, using the celestial avatar becomes mandatory. 

Because of this mindless rotation, I cannot enjoy the instance, or even pay attention to it. Rather I am forced to look at my celestial avatar meter . Its even worse with the untamed with all the button presses involved to apply quickness! I feel that this is  BAD gameplay and not enjoyable. I picked druid to heal the group and not spam my celestial avatar skills just to give out alacrity. With untamed, I do not have the flexibility to choose which unleashed skills or weapons I want to use at a particular instant. 

I feel that people pick certain class to explore the playstyle that class offers, and not to give out alacrity or quickness.  I think making the quickness and alacrity straightforward to apply and not tying it to other actions - especially those that compel a certain rotation or playstyle -  makes the game better. 

I know this is a polarizing topic and I want to hear the community's take on this, because in the end, class design will only be based on popular choice. Are we 500 IQ button smashers or do we just like to take it easy? Or are there other classes where this boon application is done better? 

 

 

[Valfar.3761]

10 hours ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Because of this mindless rotation, I cannot enjoy the instance, or even pay attention to it. Rather I am forced to look at my celestial avatar meter . Its even worse with the untamed with all the button presses involved to apply quickness! I feel that this is  BAD gameplay and not enjoyable.

Same here. It would be nice if a very low APM Untamed build was viable, within even the same ballpark as the higher APM ones.

This isn't just an issue with GW2, but with WoW clones in general. They are pseudo-action games with high APM and the content is designed around dealing as much damage as possible. So your eyes are not looking at the actual game world, enjoying looking at the characters or the animations or the environments, but are instead fixated on a tiny strip at the bottom of the screen staring at meters and cooldowns. That's not an entertaining fantasy adventure.

[Ashen.2907]

10 hours ago, Tazer.2157 said:

1)A welcome change, one that made the game better.

2)But somewhere along the way, these boons took preference over the core mechanic of the class and began to change the way we play them.

Number 2 is an inherent aspect of the change referenced in number 1. The change that you claim made the game better is what creates the unavoidable problem you describe....making the game worse.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Ashen.2907

[Endaris.1452]

They're not inherently wrong trying to increase accessibility to those key boons but more in the how.

Specializations can and should be that, specialized. We don't need quickness and alacrity on every class, if half the classes can do them that opens enough adaptability for people. Just like a mesmer will never be a competitive healer in endgame PvE, a necromancer does not need to be a competitive source of alacrity. And a Druid does not need to be a competitive DPS when there are other especs to cover that but I guess it's too late to convince anet otherwise on that.

Finally it should be recognized that these boons are very powerful and whoever provides them should

a) have to commit significant gear stats to be able to provide them with >100% uptime; this makes them not just being there for granted while maintaining 90% of a dedicated DPS player's damage contribution

b) ideally have this boon support tied to a skillful interaction with your group spread across 1-2 powerful abilities

As much as I loathe firebrand mantras as the most boring skill type ever, it very conveniently accomplishes just that. You have two abilities, that you need to press for quickness. Their range somewhat blows so you need to be a bit careful about positioning. Or former chronomancer wells when they still gave boons. Easy to place on static players, skillful interaction on moving players. This makes support gameplay easy to understand and feel powerful. If you use the skill incorrectly there is likely immediate negative feedback but conversely if you use it correctly it feels very rewarding and satisfying.

Linking boon application to a skill type usually only leads to stacking the skill type to avoid needing any more boon duration than necessary as losing one damaging ability is effectively always better for damage overall than losing stats that will decrease the damage from everything you do, so we just spam abilities of that skill type. The main bad thing about this is that it detaches the use of these skills from their original intended usage - we start using them for the trait, not the skill itself.

Moving Alacrity away from celestial avatar and into something like Glyph of Alignment means we have one glyph dedicated to providing alacrity - granted, with the way glyphs currently work it wouldn't really be a skillful interaction but it would allow us to use all CA abilities for their individual usage rather than them being taken hostage by the alacrity trait. And instead it would open up possibilities to add traits that offer more transformative choices than just "give boon x" but rather add more unique class mechanics as possible choices that diversify gameplay overall.

Edited July 1, 2023 by Endaris.1452

[shinkamalei.2574]

24 minutes ago, Endaris.1452 said:

Moving Alacrity away from celestial avatar and into something like Glyph of Alignment means we have one glyph dedicated to providing alacrity - granted, with the way glyphs currently work it wouldn't really be a skillful interaction but it would allow us to use all CA abilities for their individual usage rather than them being taken hostage by the alacrity trait. And instead it would open up possibilities to add traits that offer more transformative choices than just "give boon x" but rather add more unique class mechanics as possible choices that diversify gameplay overall.

I've said the same with maybe added "enter/exit"CA. Not to upkeep but as an added extra provider. That way people when they're going into CA know that it's not just for heals or anything and if needed, they could use it as an emergency use. Aka give us more options but not force us to melt our CA away.

[Dante.1508]

I agree i play to have fun not give to give pointless buffs to everyone.

[Gerebos.1065]

4 hours ago, Valfar.3761 said:

Same here. It would be nice if a very low APM Untamed build was viable, within even the same ballpark as the higher APM ones.

This isn't just an issue with GW2, but with WoW clones in general. They are pseudo-action games with high APM and the content is designed around dealing as much damage as possible. So your eyes are not looking at the actual game world, enjoying looking at the characters or the animations or the environments, but are instead fixated on a tiny strip at the bottom of the screen staring at meters and cooldowns. That's not an entertaining fantasy adventure.

I tought I was alone with this type of thinkings.

In instances raids etc I play mechanically and looking for the skills,cds and animations all the way until the end xD I cannot even enjoy the game visuals.

Anyway it's not new and it won't be changed anytime soon but I feel better now that I know I am not alone in the world xD

[Shuzuru.3651]

14 hours ago, Tazer.2157 said:

So, now if I were to play quickness untamed I would need to constantly jump in and out of the unleashed state, swap weapons and repeat

Isn't that how untamed is supposed to play under normal circumstances ?

Unleash are all damage skills, and good ones, so you're pretty much already trying to spam them as much as you could. 

[Zebulous.2934]

I saw Mukluk on youtube playing druid, he decided to ignore alacrity.  Other professions could do it more easily so he found a few pugs where he was able to heal, tank, and provide other boons. Mukluk was able to use the Celestial Avatar when he needed it since he wasn't using it as a source of alacrity.  He seemed to be having fun.  It could be that Anet doesn't actually want Druid to provide alacrity as a main feature.  Just as a little bonus when Druid presses its panic button.

[Tazer.2157]

1 hour ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Isn't that how untamed is supposed to play under normal circumstances ?

Unleash are all damage skills, and good ones, so you're pretty much already trying to spam them as much as you could. 

Good point. So normally when we play untamed, we would go in and  out of the unleashed state whenever the unleashed power was up. It kind of locks you in to pushing certain buttons in a pattern.  I never liked this mechanic in the first place.  But this is the topic for another day. 

But the quickness application forces us into doing a weapon swap and entering the unleashed state, and I do not see a positive in this.

Basically I am asking this question: what is there to be gained in making the player do a weapon swap and go in and out of the unleashed state just to apply quickness. 

Isn't this an unnecessary complication, and doesn't it take away player choice in combat? 

 

[Shuzuru.3651]

10 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

Good point. So normally when we play untamed, we would go in and  out of the unleashed state whenever the unleashed power was up. It kind of locks you in to pushing certain buttons in a pattern.  I never liked this mechanic in the first place.  But this is the topic for another day. 

But the quickness application forces us into doing a weapon swap and entering the unleashed state, and I do not see a positive in this.

Basically I am asking this question: what is there to be gained in making the player do a weapon swap and go in and out of the unleashed state just to apply quickness. 

Isn't this an unnecessary complication, and doesn't it take away player choice in combat? 

 

Well, simple, every class use weapon swap to fill time with meaningful skill during cooldown.

Untamed was somehow able to avoid it due to fervent force disgusting cooldown reduction (which is a real problem, no class should have that much cooldown reduction power).

Now that it's gone, it will swap weapon like every other class, the quickness build emphasized on unleashed skill (which is part of the class identity), so it give you additional means to use them, using a natural process of every build (weapon swap). 

[dace.8019]

Homogenization of professions due to the hard meta preference for Alacrity and Quickness is easily the worst thing about modern GW2. I really get why ANet are doing it - people wanted an easily parsed role that didn't involve intimate knowledge of a profession and this was it. Making a profession mandatory as the only vehicles for these boons was unsustainable so they had to dole them out to everyone. 

I love burning down content as much as the next player but I hate that we're not looking at professions and their elite specs through the lens of what interesting mechanics, changes, skills and new effects they bring but how to squeeze alac, quick out of them and have huge dps/heals.

That's all there really is atm for group content. You could boil the game down to 2 buttons in these modes: one for DPS/heals and the other to supply whatever boons you're built for. I guess it's easier to balance and build content for than having 9 professions doing weird and wonderful things distinct from one another like we had at launch.

[Tazer.2157]

2 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Well, simple, every class use weapon swap to fill time with meaningful skill during cooldown.

Untamed was somehow able to avoid it due to fervent force disgusting cooldown reduction (which is a real problem, no class should have that much cooldown reduction power).

Now that it's gone, it will swap weapon like every other class, the quickness build emphasized on unleashed skill (which is part of the class identity), so it give you additional means to use them, using a natural process of every build (weapon swap). 

The question becomes, do you weapon swap for the weapon skills or for the quickness ? I feel that by tying quickness into the unleashed mechanic and by tying the unleashed mechanic to a weapon swap swings the intention of the weapon swap towards the latter. I really do not enjoy this forced rotation gameplay and it is not good for the game. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by Tazer.2157

[Shuzuru.3651]

10 minutes ago, Tazer.2157 said:

The question becomes, do you weapon swap for the weapon skills or for the quickness ? I feel that by tying quickness into the unleashed mechanic and by tying the unleashed mechanic to a weapon swap swings the intention of the weapon swap towards the latter. I really do not enjoy this forced rotation gameplay and it is not good for the game. 

Hum, both?

Like I said, you don't have cooldown reduction anymore, so you'll have to swap anyway if you want to get some good damage, so the unleashed reset is simply a nice bonus to promote the mecanic.

[Linken.6345]

5 hours ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

I saw Mukluk on youtube playing druid, he decided to ignore alacrity.  Other professions could do it more easily so he found a few pugs where he was able to heal, tank, and provide other boons. Mukluk was able to use the Celestial Avatar when he needed it since he wasn't using it as a source of alacrity.  He seemed to be having fun.  It could be that Anet doesn't actually want Druid to provide alacrity as a main feature.  Just as a little bonus when Druid presses its panic button.

That mukluk video took lingering light to heal more so he cant provide alacrity at all even if he wanted to.

[Zebulous.2934]

7 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

That mukluk video took lingering light to heal more so he cant provide alacrity at all even if he wanted to.

ah, so he entirely ignored alacrity.  Like I said, he had fun, and plenty of other classes are able to provide alacrity more easily than druid.

[Linken.6345]

23 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

ah, so he entirely ignored alacrity.  Like I said, he had fun, and plenty of other classes are able to provide alacrity more easily than druid.

That is correct but you would have to start your own squad as that kind of support since people usualy want a heal alac not a single healer were if he croaks everyone else are sorry out of luck.

And alot of people dont want to do their own squads.

 

[Ashen.2907]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

That is correct but you would have to start your own squad as that kind of support since people usualy want a heal alac not a single healer were if he croaks everyone else are sorry out of luck.

And alot of people dont want to do their own squads.

 

This.

Unless things change post balancing people are not looking for support that only heals. If they have to choose between a druid healer and another support that heals and provides alac, the druid is going to be left out. Note that I am not advocating for this, just describing what I see in LFG.