Salvation through mutation - Gifts of e-spec!

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Making e-spec weapons core is basically folly from game balance standpoint.
Without going into high brow explanations we can already see what's happening in practice.
Very varied results from profession to profession with clear winners (engi, ranger) and losers (warrior) of this change.

If we assume that the live game is balanced at this point (I know it's a stretch), then it's obvious the balance will go right out the window after this change.

So i propose that not only do we fix this, but also remember the dead, a.k.a. core professions and start balancing things for real.
With style!

Example: GIFT OF THE REAPER

When you equip a greatsword as non reaper necromancer, part of it's power is infused into the weapon.
Each specialization awakens different effects:

1. Harbinger -  greatsword attacks heal you for 5% damage dealt with them.
2. Scourge - greatsword attacks have increased crit chance based on vulnerability stacks enemy has (1% crit chance for one stack)
3. Core - Grasping Darkness grants stack of stability for each target hit, two for defiant foes.

This is just an example. Bottom line is that the weapon would carry some parts of it's original e-specs kit that it benefitted from (here we have minor version of souleater, decimating defenses and reaper's ability to get stability overall) given to each spec to make the weapon work better for them.

Harb is squishy, Scourge sucks as a power spec due to lack of any free crit chance (unlike reaper) and core is a total cc ragdoll.
Now the gs fits into each non reaper spec much better with a bit of reaper flavor in each case!

This system could be used to make weapons that normally can't really function outside of their e-spec viable, or to provide core specs that are dragging their feet with greater benefits, bridging the clear power gap between them and elites.

[Batalix.2873]

I had already been thinking about something like this, because some of us armchair theorists already considered this weaponsmastery BS and decided (rightly) that it is a bad idea on its own.

However, I had not considered my idea *in conjunction* with opening up espec weapons. My prevailing idea of a "good balancing thing" would have been to give core weapons this kind of "espec specific functionality". Thus theoretically creating an opportunity for every weapon to be viable on each espec.

Honestly, if the devs did that I wouldn't care whether epsec weapons were unlocked or not. As long as each espec had access to at least *some* unique weapon niche/identity I would consider the espec system largely respected and preserved. But not as the devs are currently approaching it: we need something like your suggestion in place.

Granted, either way I could see development of three different concepts for each profession weapon to be a huge undertaking. But honestly after how low-effort the EoD/SotO additions have been, I feel okay demanding one really big, development-intensive overhaul to finally bring EoD up to par and solidify this supposedly finalized three-espec paradigm.

[Panda.1967]

That… is a terrible idea… you are concerned about weaponmastery breaking balance… and your solution is to guarantee that it breaks balance?

weaponmastery is a unique opportunity for them to properly balance espec weapons for once. They have deliberately maintained a above par balance on espec weapons to keep them desirable when compared to core weapons that fill the same niche… with espec weapons going core this is nolonger necessary and weapons that fill the same niche can actually be balanced for a change.

This means some espec weapons will get nerfs and some core weapons will get buffs.

[Linken.6345]

14 minutes ago, Panda.1967 said:

That… is a terrible idea… you are concerned about weaponmastery breaking balance… and your solution is to guarantee that it breaks balance?

weaponmastery is a unique opportunity for them to properly balance espec weapons for once. They have deliberately maintained a above par balance on espec weapons to keep them desirable when compared to core weapons that fill the same niche… with espec weapons going core this is nolonger necessary and weapons that fill the same niche can actually be balanced for a change.

This means some espec weapons will get nerfs and some core weapons will get buffs.

Ooof I think you will see the elite spec weapons will be watered down on spec that they are not native to and core wont be buffed.

[ShatteredStars.6548]

On 7/1/2023 at 4:24 PM, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Making e-spec weapons core is basically folly from game balance standpoint.
Without going into high brow explanations we can already see what's happening in practice.
Very varied results from profession to profession with clear winners (engi, ranger) and losers (warrior) of this change.

If we assume that the live game is balanced at this point (I know it's a stretch), then it's obvious the balance will go right out the window after this change.

So i propose that not only do we fix this, but also remember the dead, a.k.a. core professions and start balancing things for real.
With style!

Example: GIFT OF THE REAPER

When you equip a greatsword as non reaper necromancer, part of it's power is infused into the weapon.
Each specialization awakens different effects:

1. Harbinger -  greatsword attacks heal you for 5% damage dealt with them.
2. Scourge - greatsword attacks have increased crit chance based on vulnerability stacks enemy has (1% crit chance for one stack)
3. Core - Grasping Darkness grants stack of stability for each target hit, two for defiant foes.

This is just an example. Bottom line is that the weapon would carry some parts of it's original e-specs kit that it benefitted from (here we have minor version of souleater, decimating defenses and reaper's ability to get stability overall) given to each spec to make the weapon work better for them.

Harb is squishy, Scourge sucks as a power spec due to lack of any free crit chance (unlike reaper) and core is a total cc ragdoll.
Now the gs fits into each non reaper spec much better with a bit of reaper flavor in each case!

This system could be used to make weapons that normally can't really function outside of their e-spec viable, or to provide core specs that are dragging their feet with greater benefits, bridging the clear power gap between them and elites.

Please stay away from suggesting balancing, you are terrible at it.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

6 minutes ago, TheRunningSquire.3621 said:

Please stay away from suggesting balancing, you are terrible at it.

I won't say you're wrong...and that's why I won't.
Science is all about failure, mistakes and refining them into good ideas.

And my idea has merit. Elite weapons can be both buffed and nerfed on other specs.
Buffed in terms of feasability to be used on specs that don't have tools to make them work where necessary (like untamed hammer giving us selection of skills for each slot).
And nerfed when they're clearly overperforming. Along side with core weapon reworks here and there.
Recent rework to necro dagger was amazing for example.

Edited July 8, 2023 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Gotejjeken.1267]

I think you run into the 'Untamed' problem here--where Hammer does two different things depending on state.  It's confusing to remember and the game really isn't balanced for that kind of flexibility.  

When they decoupled Hammer from Untamed, we see what happened; it doesn't make things better but instead you lose the intent of the weapon and also half your skills at any given time, because the weapon was so heavily tied to the spec mechanic (unleashing).  

This pattern would continue for other classes, and only get worse if we begin to micromanage different effects for a weapon based on what spec is using it.  Not only is that balance impossible, but it also makes it nearly impossible to play against competitively as there are far too many variables to remember and react to.  

[Beddo.1907]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think you run into the 'Untamed' problem here--where Hammer does two different things depending on state.  It's confusing to remember and the game really isn't balanced for that kind of flexibility.  

When they decoupled Hammer from Untamed, we see what happened; it doesn't make things better but instead you lose the intent of the weapon and also half your skills at any given time, because the weapon was so heavily tied to the spec mechanic (unleashing).  

This pattern would continue for other classes, and only get worse if we begin to micromanage different effects for a weapon based on what spec is using it.  Not only is that balance impossible, but it also makes it nearly impossible to play against competitively as there are far too many variables to remember and react to.  

Hammer should've never been tied to unleash.
It's not about the sharing being a problem. It's about it fixing one and making the weapon better, only when not used by Untamed.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

6 minutes ago, Beddo.1907 said:

Hammer should've never been tied to unleash.
It's not about the sharing being a problem. It's about it fixing one and making the weapon better, only when not used by Untamed.

Sure, but all of it points to a studio without a compass.

Sticking with Ranger--Druid staff was designed in similar manner to Untamed hammer, but less egregiously so you can decouple it easier.  Meaning, at start the staff was designed around the control aspect of Druid something of which it still has way more of than any other Ranger spec.  

These weapons were simply never designed to be used outside the elite.  

Sure, you get 'happy accidents' like MH dagger that have a few positive options because it really relates in no way to soulbeast (even the dagger trait itself is core).  Which is also probably why soulbeast is the weakest of the specs in terms of uniqueness because it just exists more out of matter of convenience of removing the pet.  

Anyway, the short version is tying unique effects to weapons based on elite is probably way out of the scope of not only the games original intent but also the capabilities of the current direction / staffing.  

[Chyro.1462]

While I like the idea in theory, in practice it would be too convoluted I think.

I do agree that the weapon unlocks as they are planned will be messy on their own, with some specs benefitting greatly from the unlocks while others only get useless weapons not fit for any of their builds. I really hope that they will balance it well. But my biggest worry is that they'll then start nerfing weapons based on them being too strong on other specs, while ruining it for the elite spec the weapon was originally for.

[Leo G.4501]

Simplest solution is to just limit Weapon Mastery to core specs. You can even buff the weapons further in cases that it needs it and let it ride. I'm sure that will make more core-build specs have a bit of extra utility when elaborating on buildcraft.

Further still, I stand by my core-spec promotion schema where putting a core spec in the 3rd slot gives that spec a bit of an upgrade. Whether it's increased stats, upgraded minor or grandmaster traits or whatever, elite specs should remain a deliberate choice that has it's own plethora of benefits AS WELL AS limitations. This should have always been a focus on core specs because core specs have been left as add-ons to elite specs for nearly half the game's lifespan. If diversity is desired, we need to look back while also pressing forward.

[Leo G.4501]

On 7/1/2023 at 5:58 PM, Panda.1967 said:

That… is a terrible idea… you are concerned about weaponmastery breaking balance… and your solution is to guarantee that it breaks balance?

weaponmastery is a unique opportunity for them to properly balance espec weapons for once. They have deliberately maintained a above par balance on espec weapons to keep them desirable when compared to core weapons that fill the same niche… with espec weapons going core this is nolonger necessary and weapons that fill the same niche can actually be balanced for a change.

This means some espec weapons will get nerfs and some core weapons will get buffs.

Sounds like the end result will basically be, weapon choice = mostly cosmetic or merely power vs condi with more repeated skill mechanics. Boring.

[shion.2084]

On 7/1/2023 at 4:24 PM, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Making e-spec weapons core is basically folly from game balance standpoint.
Without going into high brow explanations we can already see what's happening in practice.
Very varied results from profession to profession with clear winners (engi, ranger) and losers (warrior) of this change.

If we assume that the live game is balanced at this point (I know it's a stretch), then it's obvious the balance will go right out the window after this change.

So i propose that not only do we fix this, but also remember the dead, a.k.a. core professions and start balancing things for real.
With style!

Example: GIFT OF THE REAPER

When you equip a greatsword as non reaper necromancer, part of it's power is infused into the weapon.
Each specialization awakens different effects:

1. Harbinger -  greatsword attacks heal you for 5% damage dealt with them.
2. Scourge - greatsword attacks have increased crit chance based on vulnerability stacks enemy has (1% crit chance for one stack)
3. Core - Grasping Darkness grants stack of stability for each target hit, two for defiant foes.

This is just an example. Bottom line is that the weapon would carry some parts of it's original e-specs kit that it benefitted from (here we have minor version of souleater, decimating defenses and reaper's ability to get stability overall) given to each spec to make the weapon work better for them.

Harb is squishy, Scourge sucks as a power spec due to lack of any free crit chance (unlike reaper) and core is a total cc ragdoll.
Now the gs fits into each non reaper spec much better with a bit of reaper flavor in each case!

This system could be used to make weapons that normally can't really function outside of their e-spec viable, or to provide core specs that are dragging their feet with greater benefits, bridging the clear power gap between them and elites.

Uh?  Engi is a winner?  Your not talking PvP right?   It is perhaps the biggest loser.  What is a scrapper getting out of this?   Literally we have so few weapons, and sword is only useful with a heat mechanic.    So scrapper will get nothing of value.   Holo will still want sword because of the heat synergy and access to quickness most likely (I like hammer, but then I find myself not going into forge and not feeling like a holo... at which point play scrapper).   I suppose core gets hammer... but Core isn't viable anyway in PvP so it's kind of irrelevant.

Do you honestly think anyone is going to run holo sword on core or scrapper?   Do you think mace and scrapper or holo or core is going to be a thing?   So maybe hammer... but it doesn't synergise with holo, and what it does for core won't matter because core isn't viable.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

37 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Uh?  Engi is a winner?  Your not talking PvP right?   It is perhaps the biggest loser.  What is a scrapper getting out of this?   Literally we have so few weapons, and sword is only useful with a heat mechanic.    So scrapper will get nothing of value.   Holo will still want sword because of the heat synergy and access to quickness most likely (I like hammer, but then I find myself not going into forge and not feeling like a holo... at which point play scrapper).   I suppose core gets hammer... but Core isn't viable anyway in PvP so it's kind of irrelevant.

Do you honestly think anyone is going to run holo sword on core or scrapper?   Do you think mace and scrapper or holo or core is going to be a thing?   So maybe hammer... but it doesn't synergise with holo, and what it does for core won't matter because core isn't viable.

Mace will be great for a support Scrapper. It allows you to use a Shield and the pistol didn't provide anything for Support Scrapper. The Mace can provide 100% Quickness on it's own.

 

Hammer is very fitting for a DPS Mechanist.

 

I agree that Engineer isn't the biggest winner of the feature... That honor would definitely have to go to Elementalist of course...

But it's not nearly as bad as Warrior or Thief with the change.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

I think the proposal here is way too much work.

 

The current balance devs have enough struggle getting things balanced now you're trying to add 2 more brand new mechanics for every single spec. That's just adding a nuclear bomb onto a dumpster fire.

Luckily 90% of the new weapon matches are crap and won't be used. And I don't think that's necessarily bad. Every spec shouldn't need to want to use every single weapon option available to them. 

What will need to happen is for new combinations to be toned down if they become a no-brainer overpowered pick.

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Mace will be great for a support Scrapper. It allows you to use a Shield and the pistol didn't provide anything for Support Scrapper. The Mace can provide 100% Quickness on it's own.

 

Hammer is very fitting for a DPS Mechanist.

 

I agree that Engineer isn't the biggest winner of the feature... That honor would definitely have to go to Elementalist of course...

But it's not nearly as bad as Warrior or Thief with the change.

I think I saw some sceptre use that was really interesting.  I don't play theif enough to know.... but looked like some folks were pretty keen on that as a cross over weapon.

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Mace will be great for a support Scrapper. It allows you to use a Shield and the pistol didn't provide anything for Support Scrapper. The Mace can provide 100% Quickness on it's own.

 

Hammer is very fitting for a DPS Mechanist.

 

I agree that Engineer isn't the biggest winner of the feature... That honor would definitely have to go to Elementalist of course...

But it's not nearly as bad as Warrior or Thief with the change.

Ah I couldn't figure out what you were talking about with mace and quickness.... but you're talking PVE... yeah I was talking about PvP.  You don't get quickness from your leap.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

Uh?  Engi is a winner?  Your not talking PvP right?   It is perhaps the biggest loser.  

*cry laughs in warrior*

[Roadkizzle.2157]

31 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Ah I couldn't figure out what you were talking about with mace and quickness.... but you're talking PVE... yeah I was talking about PvP.  You don't get quickness from your leap.

There are more game modes than PVP.

The Mace being available to Scrappers isn't junk just because it may not be used in PVP.

 

Likewise there are many things that I don't use in PVE but I don't say they're junk because I don't have a use for them. I'm glad that they are useful in PVP.

 

But even then. A Healscrapper may very well prefer using the Mace in PVP over a Pistol. If nothing else it provides Fury, Might, Regen, Vigor, and a Stun with Mace 3.

[shion.2084]

14 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

There are more game modes than PVP.

The Mace being available to Scrappers isn't junk just because it may not be used in PVP.

 

Likewise there are many things that I don't use in PVE but I don't say they're junk because I don't have a use for them. I'm glad that they are useful in PVP.

 

But even then. A Healscrapper may very well prefer using the Mace in PVP over a Pistol. If nothing else it provides Fury, Might, Regen, Vigor, and a Stun with Mace 3.

Did you just say heal scraper  in PvP?