Catalyst and Bladesworm are perfectly balanced.

[kroxx.1032]

Catalyst dumb broken not even need to explain that...

Both condi and power versions overperforming as f. Specially the signet condi version now, its just immortal, constant boons 24/7, heal 24/7, building condis easily. If you are new player and just smash skills like an ape, you can win old players if your fingers are fast enough, doesnt matter if you dont know what your skills do.

Bladesworm with the rework, the defensive build have 6 deflects, making it extremly tanky, plus de 2 heals (3 if you use elite), constant regeneration and an interrupt that can hit up to 8k on skill 3 blade. Elite that recharges you blade skills, adding a 7th aegis in case you need it asap. Basically, you just need to smash aegis skills (each skill 4 any stance), since they also deflect, charge bladesworm mode and smash that skill 2 that dashes through the whole arena. As duelist, its immortal. As team fighter, it also helps alot since you can smash shout or place a banner.

Playing it myself, the only class that can beat it its ele, rest struggle incredibly to take it down solo. And aswell, super low skill cap. A monkey can play it.

 

[Peacekid.1463]

hahaahahaahha hahahahahahaah hahahahahahaaha 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Bladesworn just as OP as cata. 

Ok

[magickthief.6492]

Yeah, but daredevil has 3 dodges. In all fairness 

[Myror.7521]

I actually wouldn't call Bladesworn OP. But still it's  "Just smash Buttons and win nearly every 1v1". However it struggles if you fight against more than Just 1 Player. Ele or specialy cata on the other hand could be Immortal to everything while dish out thousands of dmg at the same time. And No its not just "one build" its the whole e-spec or even the whole class that is like this. (Heck even a Hammer Catalyst just smashed Buttons and free eat every single hard hit Skill just by standing into it and have perma damage reductions/then there is weaver that could oneshot ya on range (its just not one button i know but it does thousands of dmg in less than a second) while also get nearly perma superspeed in Comb with ranged blinds, Blocks and a Teleport (If used))

[iminxi.8514]

If the problem is the immortality of cata they should nerf the elite into the ground. Its what allows insane uptime on the defensives, chaining them then being able to reset is too much.  Justmake it amify the effects, that would render it useless as a defensive since all the defensives are straight up "lol i dont take damage bro"

Edited July 12, 2023 by demonbeetle.2387

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, magickthief.6492 said:

Yeah, but daredevil has 3 dodges. In all fairness 

Someone will say that unironically. Don't test them.  Theres people chomping at the bit to explain to you why your thief is a curse on this plane of existence. 

Nah I'm jk test them 💀

4 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

I actually wouldn't call Bladesworn OP. But still it's  "Just smash Buttons and win nearly every 1v1". However it struggles if you fight against more than Just 1 Player. Ele or specialy cata on the other hand could be Immortal to everything while dish out thousands of dmg at the same time.

This assessment is correct.

bladesworn -is- annoying, but it crumples like a tin can 2v1. Cata can 2v1. Granted, I don't think any class should just win its 1v1s because its class mechanics make it difficult for it to lose vs competent players, but it def is no signet catalyst.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[felix.2386]

and vindi has 3 heals and rev has 2 heals

rev has 2 elite skills.

and necro has 2 life har.

i dont get what you trying to say here

also you have to get your terms right, skill cap is capping of skill, low skill cap is never good on any class, because it means it performs bad at high skill level, due to class limitation

if you mean low skill floor, the entry skill level demanded to play the class is low, sure, but tell me a build that can't be played by monkey right now?

but in terms of skill capp, BsW definitely has the highest skill cap for warrior, capping of skill that is, so you can do more for the skill you have, and not capped by the class.

Edited July 12, 2023 by felix.2386

[Terrorhuz.4695]

46 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Someone will say that unironically.

😉 😉 😉

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

30 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

😉 😉 😉

👁️👄👁️

You wouldn't.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

27 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

👁️👄👁️

You wouldn't.

*Cough* Well, actually...

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

*Cough* Well, actually...

*Gasp* 

Et Tu, Lan?!

[Terrorhuz.4695]

36 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

👁️👄👁️

You wouldn't.

You make your choice with your GM trait: either 3 normal dodges, or 2 dash\bound\whatever. Want to improve your dodges? You can either improve the quality of those dodges or the quantity of those dodges; not both.

There, I said it.

> turns notifications off

Edited July 12, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

*Gasp* 

Et Tu, Lan?!

No, I don't have a problem with the 3 evades, though I'd like for more especs to have that.

I do have a problem with stealth, but that is in part to my own hearing loss and not being able to hear all the small audio cues that are supposedly there.

[Flowki.7194]

5 hours ago, demonbeetle.2387 said:

If the problem is the immortality of cata they should nerf the elite into the ground. Its what allows insane uptime on the defensives, chaining them then being able to reset is too much.  Justmake it amify the effects, that would render it useless as a defensive since all the defensives are straight up "lol i dont take damage bro"

 

Yeah, that would solve absolutely nothing.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

37 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

No, I don't have a problem with the 3 evades, though I'd like for more especs to have that.

I do have a problem with stealth, but that is in part to my own hearing loss and not being able to hear all the small audio cues that are supposedly there.

Completely understandable. If there's a way to make the intermediary skills that would make it easier to determine where a thief started a skill from/where they may be going, I'm all for that. Maybe a more visible smoke circle/particles that linger behind the stealthed thief for a little as they enter stealth., before they go fully invisible.

38 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

You make your choice with your GM trait: either 3 normal dodges, or 2 dash\bound\whatever. Want to improve your dodges? You can either improve the quality of those dodges or the quantity of those dodges; not both.

There, I said it.

> turns notifications off

Less understandable, but class tribalism aside for like .001 seconds,

will this even fix an issue? Bound and dash have their own drawbacks (Bound risking reveal if you dodge near literally anything and being more easily trackable by channeled skills, dash turning your endurance off if you dodge with any movement impairing condition on you), but what thief have you realistically faced where if they just had one less dodge, you would have beaten them? Most of the frustration comes from not being able to engage them on terms they don't set, or keep them in a fight, no? If I had one less dodge, nothing would change besides me just leaving earlier or taking acro for additional vigor, since my damage lines are garbage anyway. Deadly Arts gives me a couple of stacks of poison for a couple seconds, and Critical Strikes gives me theoretical damage on skills. Peachy. 

Also:

Quote

Want to improve your dodges? You can either improve the quality of those dodges or the quantity of those dodges; not both.

I dunno about you, but Physical Supremacy being a blank trait because you dared to pick a GM seems like spiteful design. Your endurance is increased for taking Daredevil, but decreased for filling out your traitline all the way/using your mechanic? Sounds like that'll need a rework, it didn't work for berserker :J Nobody else has to not take a GM to benefit from a minor trait. 

Something has got to give, and there's no room to make daredevils try harder that won't cross the threshold into actively punishing them for taking daredevil, imo.

I'll play this game if Physical Supremacy, instead of being a useless trait, benefitted me in some additional way for picking a GM, but I assure you I'd be just as annoying with any reasonable benefit shelved there. The annoying is in my blood; it's in my soul. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[AlPower.2476]

Bladesworn duo with support tempest is a thing that is not fun. 

But catalyst is in a whole different level 

[Goldilock.2584]

They just need to nurf the cleanse in fire trait and boom cata has a very big weakness

[Terrorhuz.4695]

21 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

things

1) Don't call the one on dash a "drawback", please; it literally saves your kitten when you should die (try being immobilized as a mesmer; there's no drawback, you die and that is it), and it's such a long dash that it puts enough distance between you and the attacker that not regenerating endurance for a while is definitely not a problem; as thief, you can kite forever.
2) I'm all for giving daredevil back the unblockable steal, was honestly healthy for the game to have SOME TOOL to punish block spammers\res glyphers and daredevil was the right class for that. If Physical Supremacy needed a further buff after this I wouldn't oppose that in any way.
3) Yes, most thieves would be punished heavily for their mistakes if they had 2 dodges instead of 3. That's precisely the reason why they take daredevil instead of core thief; because 3 dodges matter, a lot (just like 2 instead of 1 currently matters on mirage). IDK about damage lines on thief and how effective they are, but thief doesn't lack damage; shadowshot hits for anything between 4 and 5k, I see lately thieves backstabbing for 7k, sb2 hits for 4k routinely, dagger is the AA with the highest DPS I tested -(now fire scepter on ele is likely much better). I wouldn't argue thief lacks damage; I'd argue thief lacks the explosive damage you need to oneshot someone, unlike (say) herald and willbender. But any time a thief lands something on you, you DEFINITELY feel it. I certainly do.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

21 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

1) Don't call the one on dash a "drawback", please; it literally saves your kitten when you should die (try being immobilized as a mesmer; there's no drawback, you die and that is it), and it's such a long dash that it puts enough distance between you and the attacker that not regenerating endurance for a while is definitely not a problem; as thief, you can kite forever.
2) I'm all for giving daredevil back the unblockable steal, was honestly healthy for the gave having SOME TOOL to punish block spammers and daredevil was the right class for that
3) Yes, most thieves would be punished heavily for their mistakes if they had 2 dodges instead of 3. That's precisely the reason why they take daredevil instead of core thief; because 3 dodges matter, a lot. IDK about damage lines on thief and how effective they are, but thief doesn't lack damage; shadowshot hits for anything between 4 and 5k, I see lately thieves backstabbing for 7k, sb2 hits for 4k routinely, dagger AA has the highest DPS in PvP among other AA -when I tested, some months ago; now fire scepter on ele is likely much better. I wouldn't argue thief lacks damage; I'd argue thief lacks the explosive damage you need to oneshot someone, unlike (say) herald and willbender. The damage is definitely there, tho.

1.) Iunno getting your endurance obliterated because you dodged while chilled or crippled kinda sucks 🤷‍♀️ Elusive mind should have allowed mes to dodge while stunned in exchange for the damage uptime provided by Infinite horizon.

2.) Unblockable steal is fine, but not a change before that. People did complain about that too, but hindsight is 20.20 of course.

3.) Shadowshot hits for 4-5k  and backstabs hit for 7 if the thief is glass, and at that point the thief has more concerns to worry about. See below. No thief has a chance to complete Dagger AA vs a competent player, and all the damage is shelved in the last hit.

Quote

I'd argue thief lacks the explosive damage you need to oneshot someone, unlike (say) herald and willbender. The damage is definitely there, tho.

You are correct. There is a lack of explosive damage (on daredevil anyway. Deadeye has a bit of it.) Now imagine what kind of situation you'd be in if you had 11-13k HP, two dodges, and had to be consistent with your damage to kill someone, when your main defensive mechanic requires you not do anything.

CmC says he wanted thieves to be less explosive and more grindy (because explosive thieves will delete you from stealth). Thus, you have annoying fly playstyles now. You will need to, at the end of the day, reward at least one playstyle that works. 

Blah blah blah thread hijacking, as long as I get to play my thief and not feel like a clown for logging on the class like I tend to do on warrior from time to time, I don't mind playing fair. What is fair for thief seems to always be what it's not currently doing, though. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

6 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Thus, you have annoying fly playstyles now. You will need to, at the end of the day, reward at least one playstyle that works. 

Only problem I have is thief being able to bypass downstate entirely unless some major kittenup is performed. Thief is able to survive mistakes that would kill anyone else, and that's because there's always some button you can press at the last second to save your butt, doesn't matter how badly you play.  This needs to change and daredevil in particular needs a hard counter. I don't mean "something that kills you if you're really really greedy", I don't mean "something that forces you to move on some other node"; there needs to be a class capable of taking a daredevil and straight up killing it. Thieves used to do that with mesmers, mesmers used to that with revenants, revenants used to that with necromancers and necromancers used to do that with guardian; pretty much every class had a predator, except thief which historically has never given half a kitten about these mundane issues. Nothing hard counters it, only thing you can do is to just bore them with blocks and hope they leave, because their defensive is too tight. Having your class mechanic being "you can't go into downstate" is bad, doesn't matter how much you nerf the numbers.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

21 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

something that can straight up kill the daredevil. 

Like Dragonhunter/willbender and lock-on holo? (and in some cases spellbreaker bless its heart) :J

(Also If you take the thief leave-buttons, you'll need to add die-buttons, because their init system and damage is currently balanced around the fact that they can leave. And if you add die buttons there will be S/D and pistol thieves ready to revel in the buff. )

I duel all day, I would absolutely love to forgo some mobility in order to commit to and kill one person. When you do that though, you enable (and get the associated complaining for) staff/pistol/pistolwhip thieves. 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

8 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I duel all day, I would absolutely love to forgo some mobility in order to commit to and kill one person. When you do that though, you enable (and get the associated complaining for) staff/pistol/pistolwhip thieves.

The problem with those was still the same: you could chain a metric kittenton of defensives while getting the kill. "LEMME JUST PISTOL WHIP: 8K DAMAGE WITH EVADE, WHY NOT?", "LEMME JUST VAULT: 7k DAMAGE WITH EVADE, WHY NOT?"; "LEMME JUST LARCENOUS STRIKE: 4.5k DAMAGE WITH EVADE AND I ALSO PORT BACK IF I kitten UP, WHY NOT?". It's not a class hatred thing; those builds were unhealthy because there wasn't any way to get a positive trade with them; they had the tools to deal damage while negating any returning damage (unless you had some dumb stuff to hit through evades). For example, shortbow, while being an absolute mesmer shredder, is much more balanced; there's skills to attack and skills to defend, you don't get to do everything at the same time.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

 It's not a class hatred thing

👀 HMMMM

7 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

For example, shortbow, while being an absolute mesmer shredder, is much more balanced; there's skills to attack and skills to defend, you don't get to do everything at the same time.

I hate having to spend 66% of my base init just to port, it's so bad but it stopped people from whining about it hooray I guess.

Quote

"LEMME JUST PISTOL WHIP: 8K DAMAGE WITH EVADE, WHY NOT?", "LEMME JUST VAULT: 7k DAMAGE WITH EVADE, WHY NOT?"; "LEMME JUST LARCENOUS STRIKE: 4.5k DAMAGE WITH EVADE AND I ALSO PORT BACK IF I kitten UP, WHY NOT?.

I mean, you're right.

Buff unload then :J

Jokes aside there's plenty of room for damage modification on skills you need to commit to. Staff 2 is right there. Sword Auto is right there. A lot of these skills also got their damage axed to lay the groundwork for the current incarnation of Thief-Ganondorf.  If you put the damage back I have no issue reacting and managing my endurance even more meticulously, but we both know the moment I start hitting people for worrying amounts of damage the forums will runneth over with the bolded above, just with the skill in question replaced with whatever's currently annoying. 

You cant even say "cluster bomb" without TrollingDemigod vibrating in his chair, I think we're at a real catch 22 when it comes to fair play.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

1) Don't call the one on dash a "drawback", please; it literally saves your kitten when you should die (try being immobilized as a mesmer; there's no drawback, you die and that is it), and it's such a long dash that it puts enough distance between you and the attacker that not regenerating endurance for a while is definitely not a problem; as thief, you can kite forever.
2) I'm all for giving daredevil back the unblockable steal, was honestly healthy for the gave having SOME TOOL to punish block spammers and daredevil was the right class for that
3) Yes, most thieves would be punished heavily for their mistakes if they had 2 dodges instead of 3. That's precisely the reason why they take daredevil instead of core thief; because 3 dodges matter, a lot. IDK about damage lines on thief and how effective they are, but thief doesn't lack damage; shadowshot hits for anything between 4 and 5k, I see lately thieves backstabbing for 7k, sb2 hits for 4k routinely, dagger AA has the highest DPS in PvP among other AA -when I tested, some months ago; now fire scepter on ele is likely much better. I wouldn't argue thief lacks damage; I'd argue thief lacks the explosive damage you need to oneshot someone, unlike (say) herald and willbender. The damage is definitely there, tho.

On the topic of unblockables... there are certain Classes which only survive based on having a block.  They can't spam it, they have to use it very strategically.  IF you balance DD (already a menace to glass classes) to be able to defeat the only active defence those classes have, you basically are defeating the trade-off they've made to put out the DPS they can.  

The real issue is the number of blocks certain classes have, combined with invulns, sustain, and heals... it needs to be toned down.  You don't want to escalate the problem by handing out more unblockables which disadvantages classes that is just a power creep escalation.   You want blocks to block.   But you want them to not be spammable.  So fix the spam, don't just keep escalating the large number of of things to keep track of in a mele fight that can defeat your block.   You will basically kill properly balanced classes.