It is unbearable

[KryTiKaL.3125]

33 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK maybe, but I'm pretty sure Anet isn't just going to take players word for that before there is even a chance for people to experience it right? They are going to watch how players interact with the game as they make changes. If usage is affected too much, we know Anet ALSO makes changes to improve that as well because they told us they care about how much people play all the classes. 

Yes, but they also know that player feedback is important to this process and have stated as much yet also still seem to ignore it or neglect it.

ANet may have a "vision" as to what they define as "in a good place" but that doesn't mean it is correct and that doesn't mean that the playerbase does not have a say in how that plays out or how it is received. Routinely dev studios do get it wrong up to a certain extent and data may be present but data is not the only piece of the equation when it comes to these sorts of things, it is also player perception and reception of these aspects of gameplay that are important.

Take Lost Ark for instance; data showed that the Berserker class was used quite a lot and certain abilities, due to being meta, were used a lot as well in important content due to their damage and function. However two of these widely and heavily used abilities were not fun to use in gameplay so the studio changed them to actually be more enjoyable to use in gameplay.

By data metrics alone they would have been perceived, by the devs, as being fine but player feedback clued the developers in on while they were used almost as mandatory they were not enjoyable to use and made playing the class feel not fun.

So ANet can go by data metrics all they want, but that is never the whole piece of the puzzle and player feedback on how these things interact in the game as a whole and how they feel to use in any number of capacities or situations is something that players can reliably give feedback on and are equally important to consider when ANet is looking to make changes and adjustments.

 

You routinely try to diminish peoples perspectives and opinions and valid concerns with simply "Well this is clearly not what ANet thinks" and it is entirely reductive and disrespectful to the overall conversation being conducted, all I ask is that you try to understand the perspectives being presented rather than what looks to be just dismissing them.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Yes, but they also know that player feedback is important to this process and have stated as much yet also still seem to ignore it or neglect it.

Sure, player feedback is important and we do have instances where Anetmakes adjustments to some balance patch changes to address player concerns before they are released. It's simply nonsense to think Anet is going to do EVERY time people don't like something. It's also nonsense to conclude if they don't make some adjustment because of feedback, it's just because they are ignoring it or being neglective. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Widebody.5071]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants?

2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you. 

So since Anet decides it should be so, there should be no arguments about anything happening in game. Stealth, boonball, condi vomit, celestial, power creep, roaming... everything off the table, Because it's all working the way Anet intended, done. 

Now there shouldn't won't be so many complaint's being posted going forward.

[Treacy.4067]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place.

Players can absolutely see if something is working or not. This is common sense. If this weren't the case then companies wouldn't ask for feedback, aka, player opinions.

But again you keep talking about irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with my original point, which was a counter to this:

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants?

2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you. 

I was simply saying that this argument makes no sense, it's a bad premise. Their goals have no bearing on whether something actually is in a good place as you put it. There are countless examples of companies meeting their internal goals that ended up negatively impacting their customers and/or the company itself.  Companies do make mistakes. This isn't a difficult concept to understand. 

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Widebody.5071 said:

So since Anet decides it should be so, there should be no arguments about anything happening in game.

Maybe you think that ... I certainly don't. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

18 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

Players can absolutely see if something is working or not. This is common sense. If this weren't the case then companies wouldn't ask for feedback, aka, player opinions.

Sure. I'm not arguing if players can't see if something is working or not. That has nothing to do with the truth of what I said. If something doesn't work, it's logical players use it less. If players use it less, Anet will probably be able to see that happen. Again ... what you describe is already part of how Anet monitors the game. They aren't just going to ignore their process and assume angry, biased players are accurately reading their crystal balls to abandon their changes. 

18 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

But again you keep talking about irrelevant stuff that has nothing to do with my original point,

Probably because your goal is to have some argument with me about something that there isn't any reason to argue about. Again, I'm not giving you my opinion about if something is in a good place or not; it's not an 'argument' with a 'bad premise'. I'm simply stating some of the criteria we KNOW Anet is using to determine if the changes they are making are putting things in what they think is a good direction. If people aren't going to put themselves into that same mindset, there isn't much they are going to say that will impact the decision for Anet to make that change. 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[voltaicbore.8012]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

UNLESS someone has some REALLY GOOD technical reason why the change was bad. Here is a opportunity ... what's the argument here for reverting the change other than 'don't like it"?

Not sure this qualifies as REALLY GOOD, but one such explanation I've seen (though not yet in this thread) is the all-or-nothing nature of reverting arc divider back to it's pre-2019 form of doing one massive strike. In competitive nodes, a single blind, or single stack of aegis is enough to negate the capstone attack of the power GS berserker spec, which to add insult to injury isn't just a single button press with CD but instead requires a much higher level of commitment from the warrior (resource buildup, berserker status window, and CD). On the flip side, defending against the last 2 hits of the 3-hit arc divider could be done with movement instead of burning a dodge. Rather than getting deleted in a small window (which was exactly the sort of thing the Feb 2020 omeganerf was designed to prevent), there's always a reasonable window for counterplay on the 3-hit arc divider.

As much as I personally preferred the 3-hit arc divider in all 3 game modes, I can also see that perhaps Anet wants arc divider to be that all-or-nothing sort of move. I think that if Anet truly does think this, it's not the right call. In my opinion, bladesworn's dragon trigger already occupies the "extremely high commitment" niche for warrior... except they're unblockable, apply cc, and can ignore blind as well. As arc divider requires relatively less commitment, I think the 3-hit version of arc divider was a more intelligent tradeoff; a good proportion of the damage can be counterplayed, but a persistent berserker still has a chance of at least pushing some of the remaining damage through.

The only circumstance I think the one-hit arc divider feels good is in pve, where blind and aegis are far less of a threat. If Anet wants to make arc divider shine only in pve and be reduced to merely situational in spvp and wvw, I guess they've succeeded there.

Edited July 30, 2023 by voltaicbore.8012

[Treacy.4067]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Probably because your goal is to have some argument with me about something that there isn't any reason to argue about. Again, I'm not giving you my opinion about if something is in a good place or not; it's not an 'argument' with a 'bad premise'. I'm simply stating some of the criteria we KNOW Anet is using to determine if the changes they are making are putting things in what they think is a good direction. If people aren't going to put themselves into that same mindset, there isn't much they are going to say that will impact the decision for Anet to make that change. 

 

You edit every single post for some reason, keep contradicting yourself, and haven't actually address my point about your faulty logic which, according to you, is that if Anet is happy with their results (which obviously we do not know) that it means things are in a good place so to speak.  That makes absolutely no sense. But again, it's irrelevant anyway because players can and do have opinions and can tell when things aren't going well, regardless of whether a company says it is or not.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

haven't actually address my point about your faulty logic 

Because it's not faulty logic. It's simply how Anet's process works. Either you ignore that process at your own folly or you learn what it is and do your best to make meaningful suggestions within that process. Whether I think that process is good or bad is irrelevant and I've made no claim either way, so there isn't some argument with me to be had here. 

It doesn't matter if we think Anet being happy with the results of their changes based on their criteria and game measurements is sensical or not. It's the process they use; it's actually a very common process lots of MMO game devs use. That being said, it IS completely nonsensical for Anet to simply base their decision to implement a change to the game on angry forum posts. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Widebody.5071]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Maybe you think that ... I certainly don't. 

I was just following your line of logic, is that not what you were implying when I quoted you? You reply is way out of context and you contradicted your own argument.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Widebody.5071

[Treacy.4067]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Because it's not faulty logic. It's simply how Anet's process works. Either you ignore that process at your own folly or you learn what it is and do your best to make meaningful suggestions within that process. Whether I think that process is good or bad is irrelevant and I've made no claim either way, so there isn't some argument with me to be had here. 

It has nothing to do with Anet's process, it's not a logically sound lol. To give you an infamous example of what I'm trying to explain to you, substitute the Coca-Cola Company in place of Arenanet in your two points when they came out with New Coke:

Quote

1. Do people play the class the amount Anet wants?

2. Does the class work the way Anet wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place'. Stop convincing yourself it's about you.

1. Do people enjoy the product in testing in the amount Coca-Cola wants?

2. Does the marketing and rollout go as Coca-Cola wants it?

If the answer is yes to those questions ... then we are in a 'good place' 

Narrator: "We were not in a good place." 😄

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

It has nothing to do with Anet's process, it's not a logically sound lol. 

That doesn't make sense. ALL of these changes has EVERYTHING to do with Anet's process for making those changes. That's not something to argue about. That's simply how it works. That process includes player feedback as well and we have examples of when that did affect the changes they implemented. Just not this time. 

If you are going to argue that Anet's process isn't logical, then you are actually implying that in the cases where Anet's changes were affected by player feedback, they shouldn't have listened to players. You simply don't get to argue one side of the coin here because it didn't work out the way you wanted it to this time. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

10 minutes ago, Widebody.5071 said:

I was just following your line of logic, is that not what you were implying when I quoted you? You reply is way out of context and you contradicted your own argument.

I'm not making an argument though.  I'm simply describing some of the reasons Anet has to make changes to the game to direct classes to the 'good place'. We know those reasons because they have told us these reasons in past changes.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Widebody.5071]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. ALL of these changes has EVERYTHING to do with Anet's process for making those changes. That's not something to argue about. That's simply how it works. 

To be honest some of the suggestions just looks like someone pissed off and feeling bitter and is trying to screw someone else's enjoyment. Just my opinion. I hope that's not the case but if it is, it coincides with the goings-on I've been reading about in online gaming. I've seen my share in this game over the years.

[Treacy.4067]

2 minutes ago, Widebody.5071 said:

I was just following your line of logic, I is that not what you were implying when I quoted you? You reply is way out of context.

That person keeps editing their post and I do remember originally their initial reply to you was completely different.

 

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense. ALL of these changes has EVERYTHING to do with Anet's process for making those changes. That's not something to argue about. That's simply how it works. That process includes player feedback as well and we have examples of when that did affect the changes they implemented. Just not this time. 

It makes perfect sense. You literally said that things are good simply because Anet said so and that people's opinions don't matter. You straight up said that's how it is and that it's the truth. I am telling you that argument has a bad premise and just gave you an example as to why it's bad.

[Widebody.5071]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not making an argument though.  I'm simply describing some of the reasons Anet has to make changes to the game to direct classes to the 'good place'. We know those reasons because they have told us these reasons in past changes.

Okay.

[Widebody.5071]

1 minute ago, Treacy.4067 said:

That person keeps editing their post and I do remember originally their initial reply to you was completely different.

 

It makes perfect sense. You literally said that things are good simply because Anet said so and that people's opinions don't matter. You straight up said that's how it is and that it's the truth. I am telling you that argument has a bad premise and just gave you an example as to why it's bad.

If you say so.

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, Treacy.4067 said:

It makes perfect sense. You literally said that things are good simply because Anet said so and that people's opinions don't matter. You straight up said that's how it is and that it's the truth. I am telling you that argument has a bad premise and just gave you an example as to why it's bad.

No ...  that's not what I said. I gave a few criteria that Anet use to make changes and if things meet those criteria, then the class is moving to a good place for them. That's not my opinion to have an argument with me about, that's just how it works. I didn't say people's opinions didn't matter at all, not once. You're just making up stuff now. In fact I believe the opposite because again, repeating myself here ... Anet has adjusted changes based on player feedback, so I KNOW people opinion's matter. 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Treacy.4067]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The fact is that players opinions do not determine if something is in a good place.

8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 I didn't say people's opinions didn't matter at all, not once. You're just making up stuff now.

I don't make stuff up and I sure as heck don't ninja edit every single one of my posts like you do. You seemed to imply it doesn't matter in other comments not just that one. It's not my fault if you phrase things in a manner that is confusing or contradictory, even that other person said as much. 

I need to start making sure I fully quote you in replies and not partially. I really don't like people going back and changing things they've already said in the middle of a discussion. That's shady.

 

[Obtena.7952]

9 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

 You seemed to imply it doesn't matter in other comments not just that one. 

See, that's the problem here. You are basing some argument you are attempting to have with me off of what you think I'm implying instead of what I'm actually saying 🤷‍♂️

Me saying players opinions do not determine if classes are in a good place is NOT the same thing as saying people's opinions don't matter. I know opinions matter because I can see the impact those opinions have on some adjustments Anet makes to their changes. I've stated this many times to you. 

So again, I NEVER said player's opinions don't matter, not once. I can't be more clear for you.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

You edit every single post for some reason, keep contradicting yourself, and haven't actually address my point about your faulty logic which, according to you, is that if Anet is happy with their results (which obviously we do not know) that it means things are in a good place so to speak.  That makes absolutely no sense. But again, it's irrelevant anyway because players can and do have opinions and can tell when things aren't going well, regardless of whether a company says it is or not.

 

 

First time engaging with Obtena?

[Fueki.4753]

9 hours ago, Treacy.4067 said:

That person keeps editing their post and I do remember originally their initial reply to you was completely different.

Just don't bother "arguing" against the wall. This kind of "discussion" will just go on and on in circles until a moderator decides the thread has run its course and locks it.

It's significantly more meaningful to walk around the wall and reply to people who have an actual interest in the topic.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Treacy.4067]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 I can't be more clear for you.

That's the problem, you are not clear and you keep changing your previous arguments.  You said player opinions don't factor in then try to argue you didn't say it lol.

55 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

First time engaging with Obtena?

38 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Just don't bother "arguing" against the wall. This kind of "discussion" will just go on and on in circles until a moderator decides the thread has run its course and locks it.

It's significantly more meaningful to walk around the wall and reply to people who have an actual interest in the topic.

Actually I do remember this happening once before but in that case I had copied everything they said and was able to call them out on it. You're right I will avoid this person so I don't derail someone's thread. Thanks for the tip.

 

 

 

[Super Hayes.6890]

Whatever criteria Anet is using, warrior simply isn't fun to play anymore. Am I the only one that feels this way? Are you folks still having fun with it? If so, please tell me what you are running. I want to use this class again. It is my main. I haven't run greatsword in years. I did try it since the arc divider change and immediately shelved it again 🤷‍♂️ I had a little fun with the gun flame build for a bit but that is not melee. I have no interest in healing others through yelling builds. There must be something?

[voltaicbore.8012]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

First time engaging with Obtena?

lol I even threw in an actual, honest-to-goodness response to Obtena, just to "give them a chance" to address the actual issue at hand, instead of the usual useless Obtena-brand pedantry. Oh well.