Heal Scourge is not doing ok in endgame content

[Shaogin.2679]

On 8/2/2023 at 3:29 AM, Nimon.7840 said:

It's definetly not bad.

But imo it's not quite on par with other healers as well.

Especially the stability application is a "problem". Can you give stability with trail of anguish? Yes you can. 

But compare that skill just in it's application to something like stand your ground.

Same stability duration, but trail needs you to run a marathon in some groups while stand your ground is just 600 range instant cast.

And there are other skills that are just way easier to apply stability. For example rev stab road.

Problem with heal-alac scourge is, that you can't keep up certain boons. You got very good might, regen and way too much alac on 100% boonduration (which let's you provide some of those boons to the other sub party in 10 people content) and you even have a very long duration aegis.

Theoretically you can even provide 100% fury, but since a lot of classes bring group fury anyways, I don't know if you want to waste one utility slot by taking dessicate.

But swiftness and protection are a "problem" and the already mentioned stability.

What's the problem with swiftness and prot? Well you don't get a 100% uptime on those.

Swiftness can only be applied by using trail of anguish, which then has the same problem I described on the stability section. And the only prot source is F5 which is missing one second of uptime 3*3+6=15 on a 16s cooldown.

Yes theoretically you could give prot with spectral ring, but that's even more impractical, because you rely on your allies to walk through it.

That being said there's boon Herold that kinda carries most of those problems.

 

 

 

I think you are playing the game wrong. Why are you comparing our stability skills first of all? So what if ours isn't some shout that easily applies the boon? Our stability skill also deals damage and converts boons to torment and cripple. Also, in 90% of fights everyone is stacked. It takes minimal effort to hit everyone with the skill.

Also, when I play I have 100% uptime on 25 might, fury, alac, regen, and prot. So it definitely sounds like you are doing something wrong there. lol

[Shuzuru.3651]

5 hours ago, Shaogin.2679 said:

I think you are playing the game wrong. Why are you comparing our stability skills first of all? So what if ours isn't some shout that easily applies the boon? Our stability skill also deals damage and converts boons to torment and cripple. Also, in 90% of fights everyone is stacked. It takes minimal effort to hit everyone with the skill.

Also, when I play I have 100% uptime on 25 might, fury, alac, regen, and prot. So it definitely sounds like you are doing something wrong there. lol

And rev road inflict weakness and do damage, on top of providing multiple stack of stab. 

Let's be real there, you're a defensive support, burning and tourment (and it no longer cripple, btw) don't matter, and you already got serpent siphon, dessicate and dagger 3 for boon removal. 

Even on a dps or offensive support, you have better skill to do damage. 

The reason you take this skill is for the stab, not the damage or boon removal component. 

[zeyeti.8347]

It lacks a real support weapon , also if you have to compare every healer of the game to a firebrand , they all seem weak compare to him , if firebrand had a free port 1200 range on a 20 sec cd like mech or mez has , it would be played 90% of the time on htcm

No other healer can spam breakstun like him , no other healers have such big aoe stab on a 24 sec cd , not even talking about aegis , it hurls out quickness , give might almost afk , fury with only 1 skill ,  2 free utility and 1 elite free slots .

I sincerly preferred the scourge where he was before , the healscourge was a fun and a hard carry for beginners , now i mostly prefer playing specter alac instead of scourge.

[Shuzuru.3651]

25 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

It lacks a real support weapon , also if you have to compare every healer of the game to a firebrand , they all seem weak compare to him , if firebrand had a free port 1200 range on a 20 sec cd like mech or mez has , it would be played 90% of the time on htcm

No other healer can spam breakstun like him , no other healers have such big aoe stab on a 24 sec cd , not even talking about aegis , it hurls out quickness , give might almost afk , fury with only 1 skill ,  2 free utility and 1 elite free slots .

I sincerly preferred the scourge where he was before , the healscourge was a fun and a hard carry for beginners , now i mostly prefer playing specter alac instead of scourge.

While they are some things right in your post, they are also a lot of wrong, 

First, about free slot on firebrand, if you take the stab/breakstun elite, you'll struggle with the quickness (and to be fair, even with the quickness one, you can also struggle a bit if the team tend to spread to often), on the free slot, if you have 2, that mean you didn't take mantra of lore, so no regen and less condi cleanse. 

About scourge, it actually got a port, less range than the mes one, but shorter cooldown. There are no struggle at all for both alac and might, even when the team tend to spread a lot. Fury on 1 button too, extreme condi cleanse, and aoe down player tp on top on revive (nerfed sure, but still potent), also, down player don't bleed out with a scourge, always nice, it give more time to save someone. Ah, boon rip, too.

Sure, it has less aegis and stab than firebrand, but it got other nice tool that may save a run.

But I think it need a better application of his stab (not much, actually,1 stack aoe on activation on trail would do fine without being too op), and maybe some aoe swiftness on warhorn 5, then it would be perfect, all rounded, with some strength and weakness compared to other support, but on par. 

[zeyeti.8347]

All what you just stated is not mandatory , they are fights without condis cleanse and without stab needed , if we make it this way then every support has no free slots as they need to put in stab and condi cleanse.

But you have fair points too , the body rally is a tool not to be forgotten for sure , the huge barrier and ability to spam a shade far away for long distance support , but scourge lack proper healing , and barrier is mostly spammed now for alacrity uptime , same problem as druid has using the big healing skills to have a good alacrity uptime , not to mention the narrow aoe for aegis/alacrity  , stability with a trail , as for the weapons i can only see warhorn being usefull , no proper mainhand support.

And for Fb , if you struggle upkeeping quickness ... , only with the mantra you can upkeep it now , giving 18 stacks of might and 20 sec of quickness while being on a 20 sec cd  (not counting with alac) and you don't need any condi cleanse on fb , he has f2 2 who is an aoe condi cleanse removing 3 condi on a 4 sec cd ... and stab is inside f3 5 who give 10 sec stab ( i am counting with 100% bd all that stuff) every 25 sec , so yes even if Fb need condi cleanse and/or stab , he can still have 3 slots free , scourge has condi cleanse too , but not as strong , if i recall it's on a 3 sec cd and only convert 1 condi.

Edited August 6, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

4 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

All what you just stated is not mandatory , they are fights without condis cleanse and without stab needed , if we make it this way then every support has no free slots as they need to put in stab and condi cleanse.

But you have fair points too , the body rally is a tool not to be forgotten for sure , the huge barrier and ability to spam a shade far away for long distance support , but scourge lack proper healing , and barrier is mostly spammed now for alacrity uptime , same problem as druid has using the big healing skills to have a good alacrity uptime , not to mention the narrow aoe for aegis/alacrity  , stability with a trail , as for the weapons i can only see warhorn being usefull , no proper mainhand support.

And for Fb , if you struggle upkeeping quickness ... , only with the mantra you can upkeep it now , giving 18 stacks of might and 20 sec of quickness while being on a 20 sec cd  (not counting with alac) and you don't need any condi cleanse on fb , he has f2 2 who is an aoe condi cleanse removing 3 condi on a 4 sec cd ... and stab is inside f3 5 who give 10 sec stab ( i am counting with 100% bd all that stuff) every 25 sec , so yes even if Fb need condi cleanse and/or stab , he can still have 3 slots free , scourge has condi cleanse too , but not as strong , if i recall it's on a 3 sec cd and only convert 1 condi.

HAB Scourge can maintain 100% alac uptime with only placing a shade and hitting F5 when F5's cooldown is up.  You have flexibility in barrier application to use when needed.  Between Well of Blood and Transfusion, Scourge can pump out meaty heals and doesn't need them as often (or as large) thanks to the barrier.  300 radius AoE isn't bad for the aegis application either.  Your hand kiter should have their own blocks anyway, and that's the only time I'm aware of someone should be that far off stack AND need an aegis.  For condi cleanse, every single barrier you apply is also a condi cleanse, so that's every time you hit F1,2,3, and 5 (x4 on 5) you get AoE condi cleanse, as well as on Serpent Siphon and, (if you took it) Sand Flare.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[Shuzuru.3651]

10 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

All what you just stated is not mandatory , they are fights without condis cleanse and without stab needed , if we make it this way then every support has no free slots as they need to put in stab and condi cleanse.

But you have fair points too , the body rally is a tool not to be forgotten for sure , the huge barrier and ability to spam a shade far away for long distance support , but scourge lack proper healing , and barrier is mostly spammed now for alacrity uptime , same problem as druid has using the big healing skills to have a good alacrity uptime , not to mention the narrow aoe for aegis/alacrity  , stability with a trail , as for the weapons i can only see warhorn being usefull , no proper mainhand support.

And for Fb , if you struggle upkeeping quickness ... , only with the mantra you can upkeep it now , giving 18 stacks of might and 20 sec of quickness while being on a 20 sec cd  (not counting with alac) and you don't need any condi cleanse on fb , he has f2 2 who is an aoe condi cleanse removing 3 condi on a 4 sec cd ... and stab is inside f3 5 who give 10 sec stab ( i am counting with 100% bd all that stuff) every 25 sec , so yes even if Fb need condi cleanse and/or stab , he can still have 3 slots free , scourge has condi cleanse too , but not as strong , if i recall it's on a 3 sec cd and only convert 1 condi.

Well, for the free slot, I was more talking about the regen uptime, who kinda required mantra of lore, but I guess you can somehow have it in a tome?

Also, I do forgot they reduced mantra cooldown recently, so it may be easier then before, so I guess you can have a free elite slot and 2 utility slot. 

Good news, because scourge can too, actually.

Also, you shouldn't underestimate scourge heal and barrier, it's actually quite potent.

Also, the alac is on a pretty good aoe (most barrier is actually on 300 and not 180 like the shade) and you can stack quite nicely (wasn't rare to have it stacked to 30sec, actually)

And condi cleanse on barrier mean permanent passive condi cleanse on the team. Didn't do the math, but it's something about 17condi every 15 sec on average, from what I heard.

But yeah, firebrand is still the king of stab and aegis, sure. 

[zeyeti.8347]

16 hours ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Scourge can pump out meaty heals

Sorry but i don't see the meaty healings anywhere , if you are referring to well of blood , vampiric presence or transfusion , thats not what i call meaty personnaly , maybe i missed something , i don't know i didn't dive very deep in the new scourge.

Kinds of matter your own preferences , but personnaly with the rework i don't enjoy any heal alacrity left , and sure the % healing downed needed to be tuned down a  bit , but not gutted from 7 to 2 for well and 4 to 1 for transfusion .

Also i can't help feeling all my weapons equiped are near useless , yeah you have cc , what else ? a handfull of might and life force generator ? you already on soul reaping , no more life force generator is needed , i  would love the new weapon to be support oriented , the off hands are ok with torch and warhorn , but two handed and 1 handed right are near useless (don't tell me you heal with blood mark from staff i would  consider it a joke).

And yeah mb , forgot scourge clean condi on barrier , that make him the king of condi cleanse , but tell me a fight were you need so much condi cleanse and not just 2-3 every 10 sec ?

Edited August 7, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Shuzuru.3651]

45 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Sorry but i don't see the meaty healings anywhere , if you are referring to well of blood , vampiric presence or transfusion , thats not what i call meaty personnaly , maybe i missed something , i don't know i didn't dive very deep in the new scourge.

Kinds of matter your own preferences , but personnaly with the rework i don't enjoy any heal alacrity left , and sure the % healing downed needed to be tuned down a  bit , but not gutted from 7 to 2 for well and 4 to 1 for transfusion .

Also i can't help feeling all my weapons equiped are near useless , yeah you have cc , what else ? a handfull of might and life force generator ? you already on soul reaping , no more life force generator is needed , i  would love the new weapon to be support oriented , the off hands are ok with torch and warhorn , but two handed and 1 handed right are near useless (don't tell me you heal with blood mark from staff i would  consider it a joke).

And yeah mb , forgot scourge clean condi on barrier , that make him the king of condi cleanse , but tell me a fight were you need so much condi cleanse and not just 2-3 every 10 sec ?

I'm curious of what you considered meaty then, as well of blood and transfusion get kinda similar number to what a firebrand can do. 

But to be honest, I raided with it, and most of the time, heal doesn't matter, most fight don't even get past your barrier, to begin with (unless thing like vg green or moment with good pressure)

I sometime didn't even touch f4 for the whole encounter unless I need to port à down player. 

[Methuselah.4376]

1 hour ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Sorry but i don't see the meaty healings anywhere 

Well, then what do you consider meaty? Also, don't forget that while Scourge is healing you you will also have barriers so:

a. You will be taking less damage to your health in general as you will have barriers absorbing a lot of damage for you

b. When damaged, your health bar will be protected from the front end with barriers while scourge is healing you, so compared to other healers who might "lose" healing as some of the healing is being lost to damage, scourge's healing will have a higher chance of being delivered in full without being "lost" as the barriers are there protecting your health. 

[Obtena.7952]

Apparently 'not doing OK in endgame' means over 9% usage and a significant usage bump since last patch according to wingman. Yup, either Scourge is so hard done by or some crystal balls are cracked. It's 'interesting' to see some people claim it doesn't have 'meaty' heals or 'good' access to support weapons. Apparently, the word didn't get out to the people using Scourge effectively so they can see the error of their way for choosing to use it. 🙄

But here is a bit of reality: instead of pretending Scourge is so deficient and bad in endgame content ... start asking yourself if it's pushing nerf territory for Anet. I don't think it is there yet but I do think a few well placed changes in effects outside of Scourge could put it there easily, ESPECAILLY if it translates to a damage increase (and pay special attention when Scourge gets access to pistol with Weapon mastery). 

What I do think it certain is that there is some complexity with number of targets depending on the scenario and we KNOW Anet is particular about how effectively the roles can impact no more than 5 targets. Watch that space closely. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

What i consider meaty i a spell or a combination of added spell able to quickly put a whole group from 10% to 100% life , being it firebrand f2 skills , druid celestial avatar or last tic of ele water overload , i have looked into numbers for the scourge and it's not really appealing , you have transfusion healing for almost 700 hp a sec for 100% of the time , but you will save this one for a fast tp rez , then well of blood normal who hits maybe 1300 hp sec but 5 ticks only (this kind of the only true consistent healing scourge has) and the passiv only occuring when you start rezzing do maybe 700 a sec and again those two are mostly used to revive so on fights where scourge shine like matthias were a lot of people go down you want to save those for quick mass revive and then vampiric presence who is hilariously weak as it heals maybe 150 hp from hits every 1/2 sec , but you need to hit the target on right timing or you gonna pass on a 1/4 sec cd lowering it even under a non healing regenration uptime.

But as i said you all have your own thoughts about scourge having enough healing , my personal thoughts is that it lacks it a bit , not i said i mind having a healscourge as healer , he get the job done , and i can't help seeing on large scale scattered squad needing healing like OLC cm pull mech his healing being not enough cause of numbers or to tiny aoes , i know there is barrier , but again barrier ptrevent damage it not heal the damage.

And btw obtena wingman refer to ALL scourges , and with a video off 8 scourge doing sloth without doing the shroom mech proves that this class as d p s is busted if you stack them , so numbers on wingman don't give you the % of healscourge played but overall scourges , same goes for druid now , people saying it has not decreased the play of druid ? ofc not , there is a dps druid now , so healdruid has indeed decreased , and scourge ramp up came just because he can add alacrity . But i know it must be difficult for you to read trough data as you simply put up some facts without any proof and now that the data favor your points you use it , how very confy of you .... 😏 i remember same discussion where you didn't even bring up any data , but now you do , sadly enough you can't read trough % so stick to your poneyworld (see ican put stupid emotes all around too) .

And were did i say Scourge is bad at endgame ? where  ? i talk about healscourge  , i just stated i personnaly felt healscourge lack a bit of sustainable true healing , also i speak about HEALSCOURGE (read between the lines plz , i stated it twice because you seem to have tunnel vision syndrome) i know really well when pistol will enter i am gonna try scourge pistol/torch , scepter/torch same goes for harbringer , even now scourge as dps and alac dps is a blast , just healscourge lack something to my own taste , did i forbid someone to play it ? so stop your sjw virtue signaling plz , you are ridiculous and read the whole before ranting about just my own personal preference. Healscourge is not horrible for sure but it could be better , do it need to be better for the game ? ofc not obliged , i personnaly will not play it thats all , end of discussion. You have the right to appreciate it , i have the right to feel it lacks something. And did i say it is not played ? bias. Why did i even clean my BL list , i ll add a note that i shoudl leave you there , not worth my time speaking with you, i prefer speaking with clear minded person as shuzuru who has fairly good points to defend.

Edited August 7, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Methuselah.4376]

52 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

What i consider meaty i a spell or a combination of added spell able to quickly put a whole group from 10% to 100% life

But healers who do not apply barrier will need that because if any more damage comes in then that's a downed player, whereas Scourge will be constantly applying barriers so it can afford to take two seconds longer. Plus, you're forgetting Life from Death for another source of healing (and technically speaking, Water Sigil). I do get your point that HPS of other healers is higher, but you must factor in the barrier output here, because that's Scourge's way of supporting. And as others have said, usually the Scourge's subgroup rarely ever take damage to their actual health, so trickling healing like from Life from Death and Water Sigil will usually be enough to keep a subgroup at 100% health. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

And btw obtena wingman refer to ALL scourges , and with a video off 8 scourge doing sloth without doing the shroom mech proves that this class as d p s is busted if you stack them , so numbers on wingman don't give you the % of healscourge played but overall scourges 

OK I never made any statement about how the usage numbers break down for Scourge. My point was that there was a big increase of Scourge use at the time Anet implemented it's healer role. That's not just a coincidence and it has nothing to do with "massive stacking DPS" (which isn't new BTW). But sure, tell me I don't know how the data works again while ignoring the fact that if ANYONE isn't using data to make their claims in this thread, it's the people that want to pretend heal scourge isn't 'OK' in endgame content

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Nimon.7840]

10 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK I never made any statement about how the usage numbers break down for Scourge. My point was that there was a big increase of Scourge use at the time Anet implemented it's healer role. That's not just a coincidence and it has nothing to do with "massive stacking DPS" (which isn't new BTW). But sure, tell me I don't know how the data works again while ignoring the fact that if ANYONE isn't using data to make their claims in this thread, it's the people that want to pretend heal scourge isn't 'OK' in endgame content

 

The problem is:

The same time anet made healscourge better again, they also improved the dps build by a large margin.

So I don't believe that this 9% increase is just in heal builds. Cause dps scourge is a little bit too good right now (imo it shouldn't be above harbinger).

But aside from that, healscourge is perfectly fine. It just needs some slight adjustments, mainly in boons it applies and the way it applies some boons, for it to be "on par" with the likes of druid, firebrand, mech and herald.

The "problem boons" being stability and swiftness.

Tested yesterday: solo heal mursaat overseer cm on cele scourge.

Fight length: 2m5s, dmg: 15,8k dps, barrier applied: 606k, dmg negated by barrier: 537k (overall 956k incoming dmg). Scholar uptime: 88% - yes could be better; regeneration uptime in sub2 could have been better to prevent that (84% uptime from other groups supports).

next tests: solo cele heal on gorseval and sabetha. 

yes they are all kinda low pressure fights, but cele scourge has only half the healing power, a full healscourge has. 

[zeyeti.8347]

7 minutes ago, Nimon.7840 said:

slight adjustments

Indeed , i have to admit i tried it yesterday on just a full run nm on strikes to get a hand of it , it is clearly not that bad , the amount of barrier is insane , might up at 25 in just 1-2 sec , condi cleanse is almost like you don't see any condi and you and do it without even noticing , but lacks real true healing , so sorry i made statement without really trying , it is not as good as hfb for me , but clearly have it sale on some encounters where you can really anticipate incoming damage , the transfusion healing can almost be up 100% of the time and is largely a 2x régénération tic , but as it is your teleport tool to gather downed ppl you will prefer save it for emergency , also i dislike that in really stacked groups the skill doesnt teleport down ppl if they are not in your subgroup , not to mention it don't pulse port anymore , but that would be largely op 9 tic teleport almost up 100% of the time.

My 5cc on healscourge , it is viable , with slight adjustement , maybe a mainhand support weapon , the f4 allowing to gather all downed ppl in 1 tic it could really be a top healer , as it is now i had my fun discovering a new healer , but i certainly won't use it on hard encounters.

[xellink.7568]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:13 AM, zeyeti.8347 said:

And btw obtena wingman refer to ALL scourges , and with a video off 8 scourge doing sloth without doing the shroom mech proves that this class as d p s is busted if you stack them , so numbers on wingman don't give you the % of healscourge played but overall scourges , same goes for druid now , people saying it has not decreased the play of druid ? ofc not , there is a dps druid now , so healdruid has indeed decreased , and scourge ramp up came just because he can add alacrity . But i know it must be difficult for you to read trough data as you simply put up some facts without any proof and now that the data favor your points you use it , how very confy of you .... 😏 i remember same discussion where you didn't even bring up any data , but now you do , sadly enough you can't read trough % so stick to your poneyworld (see ican put stupid emotes all around too) .

And were did i say Scourge is bad at endgame ? where  ? i talk about healscourge  , i just stated i personnaly felt healscourge lack a bit of sustainable true healing , also i speak about HEALSCOURGE (read between the lines plz , i stated it twice because you seem to have tunnel vision syndrome) i know really well when pistol will enter i am gonna try scourge pistol/torch , scepter/torch same goes for harbringer , even now scourge as dps and alac dps is a blast , just healscourge lack something to my own taste , did i forbid someone to play it ? so stop your sjw virtue signaling plz , you are ridiculous and read the whole before ranting about just my own personal preference. Healscourge is not horrible for sure but it could be better , do it need to be better for the game ? ofc not obliged , i personnaly will not play it thats all , end of discussion. You have the right to appreciate it , i have the right to feel it lacks something. And did i say it is not played ? bias. Why did i even clean my BL list , i ll add a note that i shoudl leave you there , not worth my time speaking with you, i prefer speaking with clear minded person as shuzuru who has fairly good points to defend.

Our guild did the same sloth run with 3 hybrid scourges and 1 healer. No deaths on sloth middle tactic and ignoring all mechanics. Scourge can place 10-man stab using trail and that is what make groups really strong. Sure, the area of effect is very small, but well stacked groups will become overpowered just because theres a scourge than can keep 10 man stab at 50% uptime. 2 scourges can do 100% group stab uptime. Do you know how powerful that is? 

I also tested it on the whole wing 1 (tank), wing 2 and wing 4. Hybrid heal scourge is really strong. We ignored greens for wing 1 too which is probably one of the toughest challenge for most non-meta healers.

[zeyeti.8347]

4 hours ago, xellink.7568 said:

Our guild did the same sloth run with 3 hybrid scourges and 1 healer. No deaths on sloth middle tactic and ignoring all mechanics. Scourge can place 10-man stab using trail and that is what make groups really strong. Sure, the area of effect is very small, but well stacked groups will become overpowered just because theres a scourge than can keep 10 man stab at 50% uptime. 2 scourges can do 100% group stab uptime. Do you know how powerful that is? 

I also tested it on the whole wing 1 (tank), wing 2 and wing 4. Hybrid heal scourge is really strong. We ignored greens for wing 1 too which is probably one of the toughest challenge for most non-meta healers.

Strong in number but as a lonely healer it doesnt reach the hfb for me , also you should read what i said just above i did some testing too , and yes the healscourge is uber strong against some encounter , i did desmina cm with it and the uber condi cleanse was great ofc , then i tryed Olc cm and did crap cause of narrow aoe healing , so it is good (near op) in some situation , where the hfb is good in near any situation , my 5cc again , if you don't agree well you can , but i feel like hfb is still the strongest healer of all , it lacks mobility but thats all .

Edited August 13, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Shuzuru.3651]

2 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Strong in number but as a lonely healer it doesnt reach the hfb for me , also you should read what i said just above i did some testing too , and yes the healscourge is uber strong against some encounter , i did desmina cm with it and the uber condi cleanse was great ofc , then i tryed Olc cm and did crap cause of narrow aoe healing , so it is good (near op) in some situation , where the hfb is good in near any situation , my 5cc again , if you don't agree well you can , but i feel like hfb is still the strongest healer of all , it lacks mobility but thats all .

Out of curiosity, how much of a pressure difference is there between olc and olc cm? 

I tried recently an olc nm, we were 2 healscourge, it's probably the smoothest run of olc I ever did. Almost no down, the pull/push were barely hitting the actual hp (the barrier tanked most of it). 

Also did a xjj cm title run, a bit rough but the pressure was mostly ok unless the group start to run like headless chicken. 

[Obtena.7952]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:41 AM, Nimon.7840 said:

The problem is:

The same time anet made healscourge better again, they also improved the dps build by a large margin.

So I don't believe that this 9% increase is just in heal builds. Cause dps scourge is a little bit too good right now (imo it shouldn't be above harbinger).

But aside from that, healscourge is perfectly fine. It just needs some slight adjustments, mainly in boons it applies and the way it applies some boons, for it to be "on par" with the likes of druid, firebrand, mech and herald.

The "problem boons" being stability and swiftness.

Tested yesterday: solo heal mursaat overseer cm on cele scourge.

Fight length: 2m5s, dmg: 15,8k dps, barrier applied: 606k, dmg negated by barrier: 537k (overall 956k incoming dmg). Scholar uptime: 88% - yes could be better; regeneration uptime in sub2 could have been better to prevent that (84% uptime from other groups supports).

next tests: solo cele heal on gorseval and sabetha. 

yes they are all kinda low pressure fights, but cele scourge has only half the healing power, a full healscourge has. 

Heal Scourge is a different sort of healing; one that I believe will benefit higher skilled teams that have some sense of their individual sustainability while still offering some needed love for not skilled ones in the form of enhanced rezzing capabilities while maintaining a good healing level. I don't see a problem with the healing side of Scourge at all. It's also more scalable on it's healing side than other healers and that has lots of value for a wider range of players that feel they can dial it in to a sweet spot for specific situations or team make ups. 

Where you touch on about the DPS is absolutely a concern, especially once you see HScourges running with pistols. That's an unfortunate situation to me because that opens up a whole range of things Anet might nerf Scourge on, including non-Scourge related items. In otherwords, there is potential for 'spill over' to non-Scourge builds if Scourge needs a DPS nerf. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[zeyeti.8347]

14 hours ago, Shuzuru.3651 said:

Out of curiosity, how much of a pressure difference is there between olc and olc cm? 

I tried recently an olc nm, we were 2 healscourge, it's probably the smoothest run of olc I ever did. Almost no down, the pull/push were barely hitting the actual hp (the barrier tanked most of it). 

Also did a xjj cm title run, a bit rough but the pressure was mostly ok unless the group start to run like headless chicken. 

Depends of your teammates , if they stack really tight on push and grab mechanic a healscourge can do , but most of my runs ends up with everybody scattered around and in need of big heals , also in cm , there will be someone afar for mechanics like greens or tank , what you don't care about in normal mode because you can phase the boss where they only happen to do there own mecanic just once per phase .

For ankka cm most of the pressure comes trough conditions so with the surpress condi on barrier application , healscourge is strong there , but as i said it is really strong on some encounters where hfb will be strong on almost every encounter (not as much condi cleanse , but let's remind f2 2 cleaning 3 condis and healing per condi cleanse on a 240 aoe range with a 4 sec cd...) , but now after playing it with more understanding i will surely run it on some encounters , like matthias or desmina , where condi cleanse and rez ability with teleportation can save the day , i just wish for a support mainhand weapon with some tic of ranged healing and with that i will certainly switch from hfb to scourge as mainhealer , some changes could do some good , hfb still has all tools in all his tomes , still is the only spec (with herald) to have an unique boon to share(+300 thougness is +- 10% damage mitigation on class with 1000 base).

Also i despite the nerf on % rez , it was indeed needed but not as much , 7 to 2 % for both wells , and 4 to 1% for transfusion , a bit too much .

[xellink.7568]

16 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Strong in number but as a lonely healer it doesnt reach the hfb for me , also you should read what i said just above i did some testing too , and yes the healscourge is uber strong against some encounter , i did desmina cm with it and the uber condi cleanse was great ofc , then i tryed Olc cm and did crap cause of narrow aoe healing , so it is good (near op) in some situation , where the hfb is good in near any situation , my 5cc again , if you don't agree well you can , but i feel like hfb is still the strongest healer of all , it lacks mobility but thats all .

I don't understand what you mean by strong in numbers.

Scourge doesn't have group mechanics like group stealth for thieves and double shadow portal, etc. You can summon multiple wells when someone dies I guess, but thats not the right way most players here play scourge anyway (I hope). Neither does scourge have skills that synergizes with other scourges. So when you talk about strength in numbers, it baffles me, because there is no such mechanic for abuse. What it does sound like though is that you do not main a necro and you are not leading as a commander to rearrange the classes as necessary. Just asking for Alac Heals, Quick DPS is not enough. The game has many boons, and scourge cannot upkeep as many as a HFb.

That doesn't mean its weaker, you can't just plop a scourge into a team without understanding the build, cater for its weakness and reading all the fine print. Scourge has its own problems but pooping green and blue numbers were never its problems. The same weaknesses apply for HFb too but learning its rotation does cover most of its weaknesses so some people will have a few combos to keep HFb pumping and the skill floor is lower simply because it has existed longer and most people are already used to what HFb and Druid provides and don't change the squad composition to manage other important boons, most of which are more important than just quickness and alac. The skill ceiling however is probably about the same as scourge but a significant amount of time investment is needed to learn the class (necro, not just scourge) and its intricacies. 

---------------

Anyway, just a quick dirty rundown so you may head back in to try again,

If you were to ask me what its weaknesses are, its
1) Poor boon uptime (especially when it comes to heal scourge, protection)
2) Bugged Serpent Siphon skill, I would avoid this skill for now, even though it makes sense on paper.
3) No channeled block

Why it is not beginner friendly
1) Requires conscious boon application (if you do not trigger the skills or weapon swaps, you do not trigger the boons) this is the case for all classes but generally most players have a rotation that applies all boons, which leads us to...
2) No fixed rotation, you need to know all your skills well and when to press it and to keep protect up at the most essential moments. Without protection and the necessary boons people will die
3) The need to pre-heal with barrier. The skills are not designed for reactive healing, therefore knowing when to pop requires you to constantly focus on the boss tells.
4) The need to swap runes when you swap stats. Bring too many celestials and you need nightmare runes. Bring too many plaguedoctors and you will need tormenting runes. Neither of these are cheap or accessible.
5) If you run mercy, then you have to also understand why the author chose to include mercy for niche fights, but you are not meant to run mercy once you are experienced enough.
6) The need to max out heal over time mechanics, which is essentially keeping siphon up all the time, you must weapon swap to warhorn. Unfortunately, you can't be lazy and camp single weapon like other healers (which is not recommended practice anyway!).

Its strengths are 
1) 10 man stab
2) Superior Barrier Healing even when running as a hybrid
3) High efficiency and Damage
4) Excellent alac uptime (with Herald of Sorrow)
5) Can run solo W3 towers (without a mesmer)

Scourge is also very strong when you use F4, but you should never use F4 unless extremely desperate because it will exhaust your lifeforce. If you have another class covering protection, you can drop Herald of Sorrow (Sandstorm Shroud) for higher DPS and then top up alac with sand flare.

This makes off-meta builds that grant boons (with prot really shine) like the one I posted on accessibility wars:
The Symbolic Avenger - Accessibility Wars Too
and herald builds in general 
https://hardstuck.gg/gw2/builds/revenant/power-quickness-herald/

Power quickness herald is essentially the best pair-up for Scourge.

[zeyeti.8347]

On 8/14/2023 at 10:50 AM, xellink.7568 said:

Scourge doesn't have group mechanics

Uuh... 8 scourge pressing f5 with herald of sorrow up make like ... 10 tons of barrier , not counting the excessiv amount of condi cleanse if you play healscourge , you sound like a wvw player , i have never seen thieves interact with stealth for each other in endgame content , also it resets AA so it needs to be with perfect coordinations. If you refer to wvw mechanics ,  i don't play that mode so i couldn't care less.

On 8/14/2023 at 10:50 AM, xellink.7568 said:

The game has many boons, and scourge cannot upkeep as many as a HFb.

Thats what i stated just above , ty to read between lines ....

 

On 8/14/2023 at 10:50 AM, xellink.7568 said:

Poor boon uptime (especially when it comes to heal scourge, protection)

As healscourge with herald of sorrow (with full bd) can maintain prot. to 100% , if you use it off cd. I am not a necro main thats right , i play almost every class in the game (beside ele) but you need to do some testing .... (i just tested it on an ally) and it upkeeks 100% prot. +- off cd , you have like 1-2secs more.

sure it has not the variety off boons the hfb has nor the range , and useless main hand weapons , and thats what i complain above , it lacks switness , vigor , and resolution (but with the insane amount of condi cleanse , resolution is really nbot needed) it's really the swiftness that is missed if it is not covered by the dps support.

Can you just clarify the bug of serpent siphon for me plz ? i did some testing and it seems to work fine.

Power herald is completely busted now , tell me one class who has 40% bd for free with only traits ? it is best paired with every alac heal off the game , with his ridiculous quickness and might uptime and especially the unique boon from f2 , 2 classes who have unique boons to share , hfb + herald , no other class has something like that .

On 8/14/2023 at 10:50 AM, xellink.7568 said:

The need to swap runes when you swap stats

Sorry i don't want to play the big boi but i have everything in leg , so i only care about stats +5 infusions , also i don't play the +- healer variations off it, it's either healscourge with healing and bd , full viper with or without blood magic  , and with some ritualist gear for alac dps ( i know you don't need ritu for alac uptime but i prefer being safe with the uptime) all the celestial , mercy and plaguedoctor stuff are , to my personal taste , trash stats.

Also what you say apply to many other class , like firebrand quickness , firebrand condi dps , firebrand healer , or hybrid dps heal quickness , with runes swapping to renegade , to firebrand , to monk ...

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[Nephalem.8921]

On 8/13/2023 at 5:11 PM, zeyeti.8347 said:

Strong in number but as a lonely healer it doesnt reach the hfb for me , also you should read what i said just above i did some testing too , and yes the healscourge is uber strong against some encounter , i did desmina cm with it and the uber condi cleanse was great ofc , then i tryed Olc cm and did crap cause of narrow aoe healing , so it is good (near op) in some situation , where the hfb is good in near any situation , my 5cc again , if you don't agree well you can , but i feel like hfb is still the strongest healer of all , it lacks mobility but thats all .

The only thing hfb has going for it is stab. it is extremely overrated outside of fractals. Hfb is a joke compared to hherald.

[zeyeti.8347]

18 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

The only thing hfb has going for it is stab. it is extremely overrated outside of fractals. Hfb is a joke compared to hherald.

Sorry i do not agree , healherald is a bit new so it's coming out step by step , but think you forgot aegis ? healherald is also very depending on his energy management , especially if you want to upkeep the boons from brill , also what does hherald has that hfb doesnt have ? cc ? 5 sec super speed ? 

Hfb has his tome that he can go in anytime in the game , hherald is hold by his energy management trough elevated compassion , meaning you will have to move from a legend to another at some point , also i doubt that they will keep this 40% boon duration for free , that is insanely overpowered , but as healer i don't see the big deal taking it instead of a hfb , he has more cc and access to superspeed , while hfb is a monster with stab and aegis and have indeed little cc , but no access to superspeed.

But i should try this one too , it seems that for tanking peculiar bosses it's quite effective with brill healing , block from staff and shield 5 , just regret there is very little stab (hard to use with good timing needing tablet special effect with ventari ult costing 35 en) and no aegis.