Why Ranger and Warrior are jokes

[Zekent.3652]

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'd just like to add that I've been playing ranked, unranked, and ATs all day, and I haven't seen a single melee Soulbeast.

This build is already almost completely absent from representation.

Just to clarify for the rest of this discussion: We are now officially discussing annoying mechanics, not if something is OP.

 

What's really going on right now, in terms of strong classes that are good in both middle and higher tiers is:

1. Condiserks & Bladesworns
2. Guard Support & Willbender
3. Power & Condi Vindicators/Heralds
4. Nade Scrappers & Tool Holos
5. Traditional LB/GS Power Ranger variants, with mixed condi variants
6. Specter & DP Daredevil
7. Power Mirage & Chrono
8. Tempest Support & FA Catalyst
9. Scourge & Condi Reaper

Huh... i've seen a good number of soulbeast in spvp, at least in 5v5s (NA) because i'm not a fan of 2s and 3s.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 hours ago, chromodynamix.2495 said:

Very well.  I will explain the whole process in detail and the rationale behind changes to the skills, traits, and general components of competitive gameplay that I would undertake. Give me a week to articulate it and you'll have your response.  

 

No bro just pick one build where are you going 💀

[Dreams.3128]

21 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

wow I can hear the tears in your eyes as you type this.

 

Crying about "low risk specs that have moderate/high reward" while playing an ele? funny stuff.

Your assessment of build strengths, while somewhat accurate, are very surface-level and implies an unwillingness to self-reflect on how your gameplay/decision-making may be lacking.

 

^Read this again. I have zero evidence of the quality of your gameplay, but your mindset in how you talk about certain classes signals to me (and many others) that you are not a competitor.

 

Again, I'm saying this NOT because of the strengths of Soulbeasts, Warriors, & DH's (they are all indeed strong/capable at their niches). It's specifically a) your reductive attitude towards these classes and b) your tendency to lay negative judgement on fundamental things people love about this small ded game (overlapping mechanics, unique playstyles, frustrating matchups, fast-paced decision-making around do-or-die situations, complex movement, etc)

 

Gw2 is definitely "toxic". There are a lot of things that will kill you that won't make sense/happened too fast/felt unfair/required godlike timing/etc. And that's specifically why we're here. Everything else is molasses in comparison.

All in all, this game doesn't sound like it's for you. Please play something else that meets your meeker expectations.

That, or you can join the pantheon of failed gw2 pvp competitors who camp this forum instead of logging on to practice the matchups they find difficult 🤷‍♂️

 

Don't worry, the lack of a population in PvP and the lack of increase already proves that this game is clearly not for a lot of people anymore. 

[vilesoldier.9826]

22 minutes ago, Dreams.3128 said:

Don't worry, the lack of a population in PvP and the lack of increase already proves that this game is clearly not for a lot of people anymore. 

 

and y'know what?

 

🚪👈😊👋

[Dreams.3128]

12 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

and y'know what?

 

🚪👈😊👋

Lol can't tell whether to laugh or not at the fact you seem happily okay with gold 2-3 being on the leaderboards and the fact queue times are getting longer. Bu hey, guess people like floating on dying ships.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Dreams.3128

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

57 minutes ago, Dreams.3128 said:

Lol can't tell whether to laugh or not at the fact you seem happily okay with gold 2-3 being on the leaderboards and the fact queue times are getting longer. Bu hey, guess people like floating on dying ships.

Gold 2-3 being on the leaderboard and queue times getting longer are because:

• people wintrade and nobody wants to deal with that
• people that won't learn matchups successfully got the devs to suck a lot of the variety out of the game with a merry go round of nerf brigading.
• Arenanet often adjusts specs that need assistance with a scalpel, and specs that don't with a club. 

@GeneralBM.5781 is pointing out the irony of people perpetuating the bolded without understanding that it's part of why the problem exists in the first place.

Nobody but the most spiteful of us here wants the gamemode to die, but for it to be healthy we need to be willing to learn how to fight things that have very obvious ways of dealing with them instead of trying to arbitrate how much damage they should or shouldn't do, especially if that arbitration would very easily cripple other classes (perhaps the class the person with the hangup mains) if they were applied across the board.

Because if people get their way, the nerf train doesnt stop. The people recently de-powered will put the people who cried about them on the chopping block next, until we all have sticks to hit each other with.

And nobody likes the stick game.

The megapatch was an example of that balancing philosophy people tried to laser focus onto classes they don't like being applied to their pet class as well. Nobody liked it. Nobody learned anything with the increased TTK.

Learn your lesson.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Gold 2-3 being on the leaderboard and queue times getting longer are because:

• people wintrade and nobody wants to deal with that
• people that won't learn matchups successfully got the devs to suck a lot of the variety out of the game with a merry go round of nerf brigading.
• Arenanet often adjusts specs that need assistance with a scalpel, and specs that don't with a club. 

@GeneralBM.5781 is pointing out the irony of you perpetuating the bolded without understanding that it's part of why the problem exists in the first place.

 

People will hold Anet at gunpoint to listen to their scrub takes about class balance, then say "ThAt's It GuYs, I'Ve PlAyEd For 10 YeARs AnD I'm DoNe WiTh Gw2" 

 

This game was never for you. Wait you're leaving??? God it's about time. In fact, we hope to see you back here in a few months :)

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

People will hold Anet at gunpoint to listen to their scrub takes about class balance, then say "ThAt's It GuYs, I'Ve PlAyEd For 10 YeARs AnD I'm DoNe WiTh Gw2" 

This is what bothers me the most tbh.

They'll get what they want, get nuked by something else then stop playing and I'm here like:

*relearning my whole playstyle because some guy who didn't dodge it got big mad* "Excuse me? hello? Can you like... put that stuff back this year? this decade?"

 

[Downstate.4697]

6 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This is what bothers me the most tbh.

They'll get what they want, get nuked by something else then stop playing and I'm here like:

*relearning my whole playstyle because some guy who didn't dodge it got big mad* "Excuse me? hello? Can you like... put that stuff back this year? this decade?"

 

My play style is kissing your dad on the lips.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 minutes ago, Downstate.4697 said:

My play style is kissing your dad on the lips.

[potentially bannable response from another timeline goes here]

A Sword/Dagger thief, huh? I see I see

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lighter.5631]

23 hours ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I get that this is sarcasm, but as already stated and apparent to most: 1) there really isn't much "high tier" PvP anymore, so balancing purely for that is a poor argument. 2) Many other specs, now heavily nerfed, never saw serious play. 3) I titled the thread with the class titles because Warriors (Berserker, Bladesworn) and Rangers (Soulbeast OWP / Pig 1 shots, Druid) both have multiple borderline OP specs.

haha what, my statement is entirely 100% none sarcastic fact. 

warrior's OP build is always, how much self-healing/sustain you can squeeze into a build while maintaining the same performance because there's no way to increase kill/utility performance in a way that's worth the sacrifice. while other classes' OP build generally comes from what utilities/kill potential/performance it can squeeze into a build while maintaining sustain.

you will eventually feel a drag from the class because there's really little performance difference between an OP warrior build and a garbage warrior builds besides passive self healing via certain traits, not even gameplay differences. All my highest ranked ratings are not with warrior is an entirely nonsarcastic fact.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Lighter.5631

[Flowki.7194]

On 8/4/2023 at 12:31 AM, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 the question might be. What is just more Skill needed. The ele that just have many buttons to Press to be realy good but once you get how your Combos (blast finishers and stuff) are working your Killing stuff without real effort in terms of actually timing your skills. Or a Warrior that get only 2 weapon Sets with just one Main mechanic that is very easy to learn but in the end you are forced to Play around been a Full melee class that got Skills with a lot of Cast time (means very easy to Dodge) without any real punish for ranged stuff aside non dmging CC skills ( also very Telegraphed) and against blind spamy enemys that could 100%-0% effect your Telegraphed dmg just by 1 blind, Aegis, Dodge, invuln, teleport.

 

What I realy wana say is. More Buttons to Press often do not mean you need more skill than anyone Else. Its a mix between what is most effective and how hard is it to get countered Play it.

You make the same error as 99% of the players I have ever spoke to on this forum. Effectiveness is NOT the same as difficulty. Just becuase a warrior can be kited, it does not make warrior hard to play. Just becuase power cata is strong (only if you are good at it, which takes fa r more time than getting good on many other specs) it does not make power cata easy to play. Power cata has a high skill floor, it is hard to play, but it is effective. Warrior has a low skillfloor, is easier to play, but it is not as effective as power cata. Why should it be? the very fact warrior has such a low skill floor is what is holding it back. You simply cannot buff the mobility of warrior, given its current mechanics, and expect anything less than an absolute 5 button demi-god as the result. Your talk about telegraphed warrior abilitys means nothing. Dragontooth is the most telegraphed ability in the game, but was hitting many good players with it, becuase dodge is no infinate. You have more than enough leaps and stuns as warrior to exhaust dodge/mitigation in a realistic pvp situation, or else nobody would be playing it. Warrior is effective enought to warrent its current high representation, any other suggestion is a lie.

 

Ive played warrior many times, this is not about skill ceiling, its about skill floor, and general effectiveness of the given specs within that skillfloor. Being average skilled on power cata/chrono/DDthief will make you less valuble to your team than being average skilled on the likes of necro, warrior or scrapper. This is becuase the lower skill floor specs are possible due to requiring less complexity in order to achieve the same (or more) damage or sustain as the higher skill floor specs, which makes them less punishable for mistakes across ''the average situation'', which is like 70/80% of pvp thanks to this god aweful matchmaking system.

 

Playing a high skill floor spec, means you are always working harder than lower skill floor specs. Then, when they nerf specs that have higher skill floors, their effectiveness is also reduced, which acts as an indirect buff to a low skillfloor spec, and one less reason to play a higher skillfloor spec, the psychology of effort to reward is real, its not fantasy. Why play something 50% harder just to be 10% more effective (just an example). Most won't, and evidently by the spec representations in gw2.. don't. Condi cata was easy and effective, they were everywhere, powe cata is hard but effective, you rarely see them. Currently soulbeast.. go figure.

 

Here is an idea for you. Go and try revenent hybrid dps/support. It has a higher skillfloor/ceiling than anything else ive played, and requires so much concerntration. After 20 or 30 games on that rev build (I can link you one) then go jump on spellbreaker, power necro or core gaurd support. You will see exactly what I mean.

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Zyreva.1078]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Effectiveness is NOT the same as difficulty.

Not the same, but related. The stronger something is, the easier being effective tends to be.

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

this is not about skill ceiling, its about skill floor, and general effectiveness of the given specs within that skillfloor.

Balancing arround "skill floor" means balancing arround bad players and that generally makes the game less skillful and overall worse. It is impossible to properly balance a game arround l2p issues.

You also seem to equate difficult or skillful with the amount of buttons to press, which is nonsense. There are a lot of factors that determine how hard or easy something is to learn and execute and it can even vary between individual players, as everyone has different strenghts and weaknesses. The same spec and even build can be hard or easy to play, depending on balance and the overall meta, even without any mechanical changes.

The whole "class X shouldn't be good, because it is easy" is complete nonsense.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Just becuase power cata is strong (only if you are good at it, which takes fa r more time than getting good on many other specs) it does not make power cata easy to play

Except for some reason whenever Ele is strong, everyone plays it, and they have no problem figuring out how to use it.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 so you say a class that could  just Press skills rotation/Comb wise to get dmg and Defence by skills that are more than easily to hit someone with is Harder to play than a class with high animations (means easy to Dodge), hard to hit skills since all are melee, low movement speed compared to most classes, relies on big obvious Skills (Burst skills) to make dmg+Defence+heal.

 

In fact warr get a tons of Counter Play and thats its big weakness. To tell how many it got. 

Blinds: this Game is full of classes spaming this one condition around. And since warr relies on Bursty skills to do dmg, get Heal, condi cleanes, weakend enemys its a hughe hard Counter.

Aegis: Same reason as blinds

Invulnerability: Same reason as blinds

Blocks: Same reason as blinds

Dodges: Same reason as blinds

Kiting: since its a Full melee class this is also a pretty good way to counterplay

Ranged stuff: Same reason as kiting

This is also why some Defence traitlines should be (as they mentioned in a Stream) on use and not on hit

 

 

[vilesoldier.9826]

@Flowki.7194 If a class has mechanics that can be g*mped 7 different ways, but has a low skill floor, are they toxic for the game?

 

What about if a class has mechanics that interact VERY well into other classes, but has a higher skill floor?

 

Name at the top of your answer sheet, not open-book, and no peeking at your neighbors. You may begin.

Edited August 5, 2023 by GeneralBM.5781

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Flowki.7194 is typing...

Here it comes, this is happening.

 

[Flowki.7194]

6 hours ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

Not the same, but related. The stronger something is, the easier being effective tends to be.

Balancing arround "skill floor" means balancing arround bad players and that generally makes the game less skillful and overall worse. It is impossible to properly balance a game arround l2p issues.

You also seem to equate difficult or skillful with the amount of buttons to press, which is nonsense. There are a lot of factors that determine how hard or easy something is to learn and execute and it can even vary between individual players, as everyone has different strenghts and weaknesses. The same spec and even build can be hard or easy to play, depending on balance and the overall meta, even without any mechanical changes.

The whole "class X shouldn't be good, because it is easy" is complete nonsense.

They are related yes, but the stronger something is does not make it easir to be effective as a rule. It can in some cases, like condi cata, but in the case of power cata, not even close. Power cata was and is far harder than condi cata, which is why you never see many power catas, before during, or after the signet bs. I played power cata upto around gold three, and I rarely ever seen power catas. This tells me 1 thing, that those who are good enough get into plat, and most are not good enough (its hard) so move onto something else.

 

I am not talking about balancing around the skill floor, I am suggesting raising the skill floor on multiple classes/specs. Warrior has 4 second weapon swaps, and only 17 abilitys to concern itself with, gaurdian in general isnt much different. As a result, all of its dmg, utility and sustain are crammed into those 17 butons. This allows the warrior (not all ofc) to simply tunnel vision a target and just do damage, since all of its sustain is essentially linked into just that. Ele, vindi, and some of the older engi builds have the damage spread across other mechanics where litteral choices between damage or sustain have to be made. Power necro is similar to warrior ''oh kitten im taking damage'' just reap.. where you are then given free sustain, stability, mobility and dmg, all on 1 bar from 1 button press. There is no way the average DD, power cata or chrono will get away with half the things warriors/gaurds and necros can survive due to more fogiving core mechanics, which lead to the lower skill floors. I am not disprepecting players of these classes, and I realise all classes have high skill ceilings (mostly due to dodge/block usedge, universal to all) and ofc limits in effectiveness... which are too often confused with mechanical difficulty, not the same thing.

 

The simple fact of the matter is, the more skill bars you have, the more abilitys that are required to be used seperately in the realms of dps/sustain/mitigation, and the more situational those abilitys are, the higher the skill floor. Its really that simple. If you have abilitys that do 3, 4 or 5 things at once, that is GARUNTEED to lead to a lower skill floor.. because that 1 button is now applicable across many situations, no concious thought required. Warrior gets a lot of healing, sustain, dmg and stuns, from pressing the same few buttons, across most situations, tell me im wrong?

 

Class X should not be good if it is easy, sorry but there has to be a downside. Just like support have bad dps.. becuase they forgoe dps in order to offer superior utility to the team. This game is becoming back to front.. many high effort specs are now less rewarding than low effort specs, which is flat out wrong, and toxic for the longevity of a skill based game. How is the pvp population doing?

 

 

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Except for some reason whenever Ele is strong, everyone plays it, and they have no problem figuring out how to use it.

Trevor you are the most bias person on this forum, anybody who has read your dribble knows it. Tempest and power cata have been good for a while, but we both know they are far from high represented specs in ranked, aside from the highest level, which is a vast minority. The only times there has been an influx of ele players in the last few month was after the monstrosity of signet condi cata, which was very easy to play, and very effective. That took a nerf, and barely anybody is playing cata (as it was before patch). Go check the ele forum here, and you will see how many specs that were perfectly fine, which have now been destroyed becuase of condi cata nerfs. There is likely to be even less eles in the game now than ever, since power cata is evidently too hard, despite being effective (why else is it so underrepresented? unlike condi cata was?), and staff tempest is like any other support, very frustrating to solo play in this matchmaking system that constantly feeds you newb dps every other game. Scepter was the middle ground weapon for the reality of this matchmaking, it allowed temepst a hybrid build that was more optimal with RNG team mates. 

 

Lastly, when ever ANY spec is strong, people tend to flock to it, howver.. power cata is still strong, why are people not flocking to it?, over.. say... soulbeast?.... I wonder.

 

3 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Flowki.7194 so you say a class that could  just Press skills rotation/Comb wise to get dmg and Defence by skills that are more than easily to hit someone with is Harder to play than a class with high animations (means easy to Dodge), hard to hit skills since all are melee, low movement speed compared to most classes, relies on big obvious Skills (Burst skills) to make dmg+Defence+heal.

 

In fact warr get a tons of Counter Play and thats its big weakness. To tell how many it got. 

Blinds: this Game is full of classes spaming this one condition around. And since warr relies on Bursty skills to do dmg, get Heal, condi cleanes, weakend enemys its a hughe hard Counter.

Aegis: Same reason as blinds

Invulnerability: Same reason as blinds

Blocks: Same reason as blinds

Dodges: Same reason as blinds

Kiting: since its a Full melee class this is also a pretty good way to counterplay

Ranged stuff: Same reason as kiting

This is also why some Defence traitlines should be (as they mentioned in a Stream) on use and not on hit

 

 

 

Everything you are talking about here is class limitations which dictate effectiveness. It is not the same as difficulty, you have fell into the same trap once again.

 

Let me say it like this. Imagine an engineer spec that was melee range only, but it used all of the belts, gadgets etc etc. That would be something crazy like 40 buttons to use acros various situations and for various unique encounters. Do you think becuase the engi is limited to melee range (just like warrior), that it is now the same difficulty as warrior? do you see what I mean??

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

@Flowki.7194 If a class has mechanics that can be g*mped 7 different ways, but has a low skill floor, are they toxic for the game?

 

What about if a class has mechanics that interact VERY well into other classes, but has a higher skill floor?

 

Name at the top of your answer sheet, not open-book, and no peeking at your neighbors. You may begin.

 

I don't know what you are saying here sorry. Can you put it in another way?

 

28 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Flowki.7194 is typing...

Here it comes, this is happening.

 

I guess I deserve some personal insult, after giving you some.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

20 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

I guess I deserve some personal insult, after giving you some.

Hey, at least you can take what you dish with grace. More than can be said about others that dwell on the forums.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

23 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Trevor you are the most bias person on this forum, anybody who has read your dribble knows it.

lol

The psychological projection is real.

[JTGuevara.9018]

So, basically you got shellacked and +1'd by two problematic power builds with vulnerability and high might stacks. But yes, rangers and warriors are 'jokes' instead of the worst and most predictable two classes in this game. Noted. Never mind the fact that warrior requires actual skill in hitting the target. (Try to land skull crack, I dare you...)

I've watched this situation with catalyst (along with a big jumbo bag of popcorn...) and simply just nodded my head. "Yes, gw2 multiplayer has gone to the dogs and will never return ever again..." . I've quit around 2 years ago and now I'm just here for the laughs.

On 8/4/2023 at 12:57 PM, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

People will hold Anet at gunpoint to listen to their scrub takes about class balance, then say "ThAt's It GuYs, I'Ve PlAyEd For 10 YeARs AnD I'm DoNe WiTh Gw2" 

 

This game was never for you. Wait you're leaving??? God it's about time. In fact, we hope to see you back here in a few months 🙂

Imagine thinking that balance even matters in this game and totally not favoritism. And yeah...10 years. That's not a problem is it? I know it's fashionable to bash people that were here before you because they're no longer around after the fact.

[Flowki.7194]

31 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

lol

The psychological projection is real.

Your past few essays have been something like this

 

*nerf ele into the ground

*please lets not overeact and nerf ranger into the ground, soulbeast isn't even that bad

 

In reality - Every ranked and unranked game at current is 80% represented by soulbeasts, warriors and necros. The other 20% are mostly the other cheap target drop/stealth specs.

 

My post history

*Matchmaking isnt working

*Condi cata is way too easy and effective, but please don't nerf the rest of ele

*There is too much AOE damage/AOE CC/and AOE support, along with no ICD on cc in this game

*There are too many low skillfloor specs that are too usefull

*The damage in this game is too high

*There is not near enough downside on stealth/target drops

 

Its not my fault soulbeast is all over that list.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Myror.7521]

@Flowki.7194 I do understand that ele need a good knowledge of their skills and stuff. But as said the Moment you know what you need to do its just easy in higher tier to Play as an ele. How ever in higher tiers as for example a warr its harder..... ways harder simply cause its an easy to understand class but also its easy to evade its "need to hit" mechanics called burst skills.

So yes in low tier warr>ele 

But in high tier warr<ele

And the Moment ele is better in low tier than a warr you allready know the class is just too good. However as far as this goes. In a half decent balanced game this whole scenario would be something like this.

Low tier warr>ele

Mid tier warr<ele

high tier warr=ele 

Simply cause classes should still be able to somehow counter the other one in at least some way.

(All this is a scenario of 2 players on the same Skill lvl)

Edited August 6, 2023 by Myror.7521

[Sereath.1428]

It's 100% impossible to have such balance where almost everything is equally represented at "high" levels.
Ease of play is a big factor in what becomes meta, not just the reward. Why would most ever bother playing something that spreads all of its effectiveness over twice+ as many skills, including having to manage resources/energy, when it is simply way more prone to mistakes? Again, assuming everything is equally rewarding.

What many of you want from this game is an actual fantasy.
Unattainable unless you homogenise all classes to death and remove even more mmorpg elements.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Sereath.1428