The lies of the Five Human Gods

[Malus.2184]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Ah you mean in remote areas very few people went to, as by the time of GW1 Abaddon was literally an unknown being until varesh started summoning demons into the world to bring about nightfall. In GW2 he's more known, but that's only because of the above. 

 

It's almost as if they literally bring this very point up and deal with in instantly.

The gods could, in theory, beat the elder dragons. But the resulting damage of the conflict (see Desolation and crystal desert) would possibly render much of the land ruined. Plus, beings of pure magic vs beings that eat pure magic isn't a smart idea. This is quite literally, very simple.

 

You said it yourself, it happened before people lived there. Cleaning up to the level that everything is level would literally mean excessive work since there would be no difference if people came up there to an area ravaged by natural disasters.

And again, that's just what Kormir says and while Kormer is the goddess of truth have you ever heard of the phenomenon of lying by omission? The other gods needed to do nothing save that.

I can say that I do all the things and until you see me do all the things the smart thing would be to doubt my veracity. What Kormir is doing is giving an unprovable statement. We only have their word that the collateral damage would be massive and that in no way makes it true. That just means that Kormir said it and if she believes it's true then it's true as she knows nothing else. The X of Truth is the most useless domain unless it comes with omniscience since what is the truth can so easily be manipulated by keeping information away from them since that state becomes the truth.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

What? Anmoon and LA are low-situated coastal cities. They would be first in line to be affected by a tsunami, and it's consistent that the old parts of the cities are underwater. First, they got hit by tsunamis and then the mass displacement of Orr caused the water level to rise enough that those areas were drowned and permanently abandoned. the only other coastal city on the map is Garrenhoff and I think that was established after Orr rose. The same with the Skimmer place.

I'm just going to attest this because the rest is pretty much as Narcemus and Kalavier have already said.

Lion's Arch - like Garrenhoff - were built in a time of war and had cliffs surrounding their bays. This was pointed out even in Sea of Sorrows, which focusedo n Lion's Arch flooding and how people were surprised by it. But it must be noted in Sea of Sorrows, the sea water lowered after a while, as what happens when tsunamis hit, so it's weird that Old LA is still underwater. The fact that Old LA is underwater - and dozens of feet underwater at that - indicates that the very ground shifted and sunk. Which isn't out of place per se, but is weird that it only happened there in all of Kryta.

Amnoon, however, is very weird. Sure it's a "low-situated coastal city" except for the fact of its position. The waterway has to snake around to reach Amnoon, and even then there are multiple barrier islands between Orr and Amnoon - any tsunami created by Orr's rising would have been destroyed before hitting Amnoon, and would at best just be a slightly higher tide.
Just look at the world map in GW1:
https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/3/30/Tyria_unexplored_map_2.jpg
And again in GW2:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/46/Tyria_map_(clean).jpg
It makes zero sense for Amnoon to have been hit by the tsunami. There isn't enough water to build up for it to be hit, let alone with enough force to shove the coastal water dozens of feet underwater after the water level receeded back.

And the same situation holds for Droknar's - with Mount Maelstrom literally in the way, how the kitten did the tsunami even hit Droknar's Forge, let alone with enough force to displace the ground to sink it? ArenaNet did not consider the ramifications of all their geographic catastrophes with actual physics - they just went and said "you know, it'd be cool if we had it wipe out these GW1 spots".

Orr is tiny in the grand scale, tinier than the Crystal Desert by a third, it sinking and rising won't shift the entire water level of the planet by even an inch.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

14 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

You said it yourself, it happened before people lived there. Cleaning up to the level that everything is level would literally mean excessive work since there would be no difference if people came up there to an area ravaged by natural disasters.

And again, that's just what Kormir says and while Kormer is the goddess of truth have you ever heard of the phenomenon of lying by omission? The other gods needed to do nothing save that.

I can say that I do all the things and until you see me do all the things the smart thing would be to doubt my veracity. What Kormir is doing is giving an unprovable statement. We only have their word that the collateral damage would be massive and that in no way makes it true. That just means that Kormir said it and if she believes it's true then it's true as she knows nothing else. The X of Truth is the most useless domain unless it comes with omniscience since what is the truth can so easily be manipulated by keeping information away from them since that state becomes the truth.

I mean, the fact of the desolation and the crystal desert's current state being explicitly because gods went to war against each other isn't at all evidence? Also, I pointed out that the surviving statues of Abaddon exist in areas very few people would see. It's not like they kept a statue of Abaddon in the center of Arah.

 

Frankly, it sounds like you've fixated on headcanon vs actual canon and have created an entire storyline that doesn't fit with Gw at all?

[The Greyhawk.9107]

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Frankly, it sounds like you've fixated on headcanon vs actual canon and have created an entire storyline that doesn't fit with Gw at all?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[draxynnic.3719]

Not to mention that some of the alleged plotholes were explained at the time. Wanting to keep Abaddon secret, for instance, was because the more people knew about Abaddon, the more power Abaddon had to exert influence outside the Realm of Torment - a concept (that knowledge of an entity gives that entity an ability to influence you that it didn't have while you remained ignorant) which has also been hinted at also being a factor in SotO.

[Kalavier.1097]

20 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Not to mention that some of the alleged plotholes were explained at the time. Wanting to keep Abaddon secret, for instance, was because the more people knew about Abaddon, the more power Abaddon had to exert influence outside the Realm of Torment - a concept (that knowledge of an entity gives that entity an ability to influence you that it didn't have while you remained ignorant) which has also been hinted at also being a factor in SotO.

And the fact part of the whole affair was Abaddon's followers defacing statues/attacking people. Wanting to nip that by erasing him from the books makes sense.

[Malus.2184]

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I mean, the fact of the desolation and the crystal desert's current state being explicitly because gods went to war against each other isn't at all evidence? Also, I pointed out that the surviving statues of Abaddon exist in areas very few people would see. It's not like they kept a statue of Abaddon in the center of Arah.

 

Frankly, it sounds like you've fixated on headcanon vs actual canon and have created an entire storyline that doesn't fit with Gw at all?

The Desolation is the way it is due to the sulfur flowing in from the Maw of Torment and desertification happens without external damage. As I said, I do believe that the battle accelerated the process and I see nothing that shows that it caused it.

[Kalavier.1097]

2 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

The Desolation is the way it is due to the sulfur flowing in from the Maw of Torment and desertification happens without external damage. As I said, I do believe that the battle accelerated the process and I see nothing that shows that it caused it.

You do understand the Maw of Torment literally exists ONLY because Abaddon was defeated and cast down there? There was no sulfur before Abaddon was defeated and imprisoned. IIRC you can even see his mask there before Varesh finishes the ritual that breaks open the seal.

[Malus.2184]

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I'm just going to attest this because the rest is pretty much as Narcemus and Kalavier have already said.

Lion's Arch - like Garrenhoff - were built in a time of war and had cliffs surrounding their bays. This was pointed out even in Sea of Sorrows, which focusedo n Lion's Arch flooding and how people were surprised by it. But it must be noted in Sea of Sorrows, the sea water lowered after a while, as what happens when tsunamis hit, so it's weird that Old LA is still underwater. The fact that Old LA is underwater - and dozens of feet underwater at that - indicates that the very ground shifted and sunk. Which isn't out of place per se, but is weird that it only happened there in all of Kryta.

Amnoon, however, is very weird. Sure it's a "low-situated coastal city" except for the fact of its position. The waterway has to snake around to reach Amnoon, and even then there are multiple barrier islands between Orr and Amnoon - any tsunami created by Orr's rising would have been destroyed before hitting Amnoon, and would at best just be a slightly higher tide.
Just look at the world map in GW1:
https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/3/30/Tyria_unexplored_map_2.jpg
And again in GW2:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/46/Tyria_map_(clean).jpg
It makes zero sense for Amnoon to have been hit by the tsunami. There isn't enough water to build up for it to be hit, let alone with enough force to shove the coastal water dozens of feet underwater after the water level receeded back.

And the same situation holds for Droknar's - with Mount Maelstrom literally in the way, how the kitten did the tsunami even hit Droknar's Forge, let alone with enough force to displace the ground to sink it? ArenaNet did not consider the ramifications of all their geographic catastrophes with actual physics - they just went and said "you know, it'd be cool if we had it wipe out these GW1 spots".

Orr is tiny in the grand scale, tinier than the Crystal Desert by a third, it sinking and rising won't shift the entire water level of the planet by even an inch.

The barriers around LA would only act as breakers instead of fully being able to stop it. Especially if the tsunami was a lot taller than those. The LA that existed before the current one was also built by pirates on the same site as the previous LA.

I'll give you that while Amnoon never got hit by a tsunami, it would still be flooded by the displaced mass of water from Orr rising though. This explains that the flooded structures in Amnoon are more intact than Old LA that's just a few ruins.

And Caledon forest is flooded with Risen that came to shore on the tsunami. Aside from Garranhoff, there are no settlements near the open sea. This also makes sense because there are few surface water sources near the sea as the water is brackish instead of fresh. Before the invention of pumps, all cities were built near sources of fresh water, even port cities had this requirement. Old port cities, like Copenhagen and Malmö, were just lucky that there were sources of fresh water to support the cities.

And the surface of Orr, depends on the water depth, only a fraction of the total mass, like icebergs. This is also shown in-game since the edges of the maps have sudden drops down instead of sloping down like normally expected by naturally eroded geology. Your argument makes the rising of the Crystal Desert even more implausible since it's a factor of mass higher and the power required to do so would have meant that the gods could effortlessly defeat the Elder Dragons and I do think the collateral damage caused by any such a battle is a lot smaller than the existential threat of the Dragon Cycle since it would have resulted in the total eradication of all life.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

The barriers around LA would only act as breakers instead of fully being able to stop it. Especially if the tsunami was a lot taller than those. The LA that existed before the current one was also built by pirates on the same site as the previous LA.

I'll give you that while Amnoon never got hit by a tsunami, it would still be flooded by the displaced mass of water from Orr rising though. This explains that the flooded structures in Amnoon are more intact than Old LA that's just a few ruins.

And Caledon forest is flooded with Risen that came to shore on the tsunami. Aside from Garranhoff, there are no settlements near the open sea. This also makes sense because there are few surface water sources near the sea as the water is brackish instead of fresh. Before the invention of pumps, all cities were built near sources of fresh water, even port cities had this requirement. Old port cities, like Copenhagen and Malmö, were just lucky that there were sources of fresh water to support the cities.

And the surface of Orr, depends on the water depth, only a fraction of the total mass, like icebergs. This is also shown in-game since the edges of the maps have sudden drops down instead of sloping down like normally expected by naturally eroded geology. Your argument makes the rising of the Crystal Desert even more implausible since it's a factor of mass higher and the power required to do so would have meant that the gods could effortlessly defeat the Elder Dragons and I do think the collateral damage caused by any such a battle is a lot smaller than the existential threat of the Dragon Cycle since it would have resulted in the total eradication of all life.

Almost all of this is fundamentally false. To address:

1. The "pirate LA" was built in the same spot as "current LA" - which is, at most over the Lion's Arch Keep up on a high hill. The main Lion's Arch explored, the Lionguard Barracks and the Fountain Square, is all very visibly underwater and at the PoI, and that was on the upper, inside end of LA from GW1. Even then, again, waters recede.
2. About Amnoon - even if water levels rose for a bit as it struck the barrier islands before Amnoon, it would eventually recede. And within months at the longest, not 100+ years later.
3. Risen actually canonically began invading Tarnished Coast after the sylvari grew in size. It had nothing to do with the tsunami. When the sylvari first began exploring the forest around them, there was zero threat of risen. An NPC in the Grove (I'd find it but in a hurry atm) even talks about how the threat of Zhaitan is only very recent and wonders if it's in response ot the sylvari's presence. If the risen had been there since the tsunami 100 years prior to GW2, then the Grove would have been flooded with risen when the Firstborn came into existence 23 years prior to GW2.
4. I don't even know what you're trying to argue with your iceberg analogy here - or how you think my argument makes the rising of the Crystal Desert more implausible. Your statements make no coherent sense to me. And as Kavalier said, as I said, it isn't a matter of whether or not the Six could kill the Elder Dragons, it's the very fact that killing the Elder Dragons imbalance The All and that would still destroy Tyria. "We, the gods, saw that there could be no victory if we fought the Elder Dragons" does not mean "we could not kill the Elder Dragons" it means "even if we killed the Elder Dragons, Tyria would still be doomed" and that's because they didn't have an Aurene.

[mercury ranique.2170]

A quote very inspirational for my own life is "Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?" The OP takes a very atheistic approach to the Gods. If there is no proof, or if it doesn't make sense, it can not be true. I had a debate once with an atheist. I asked if he loved his wife. The answer was obviously yes, very much. I asked him to explain how this love works. I got the full explanation of neurotransmitters and the chemistry behind human feelings.  I said him he had a great understanding of the process, but it doesn't explain why he loved his wife, and not just any other woman. So he said, that she is much more to his liking. He finds her attractive and beautiful. But he had to agree he couldnt fully explain why. It is like walking through a museum, you can't explain why you find one painting beautiful and one ugly. Nor why it differs from one and another. 

I find inspiration in the bible, but as said earlier, also in Harry Potter. A good story has immersion, but this happens in your own head. We have to fill the gaps and accept the reality offered. We know Tyria is not a real world and we are actually watching a tv screen and a cpu and memory. We accept it as real. We perceive it for real and for the sake of discussion in this  channel it is real.

Gods in essence are beings that fill the gaps between what is proven sience. This is no difference in Tyria. But beside that, they are just as real as are the makers of the eye of the north.

 

[Malus.2184]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Almost all of this is fundamentally false. To address:

1. The "pirate LA" was built in the same spot as "current LA" - which is, at most over the Lion's Arch Keep up on a high hill. The main Lion's Arch explored, the Lionguard Barracks and the Fountain Square, is all very visibly underwater and at the PoI, and that was on the upper, inside end of LA from GW1. Even then, again, waters recede.
2. About Amnoon - even if water levels rose for a bit as it struck the barrier islands before Amnoon, it would eventually recede. And within months at the longest, not 100+ years later.
3. Risen actually canonically began invading Tarnished Coast after the sylvari grew in size. It had nothing to do with the tsunami. When the sylvari first began exploring the forest around them, there was zero threat of risen. An NPC in the Grove (I'd find it but in a hurry atm) even talks about how the threat of Zhaitan is only very recent and wonders if it's in response ot the sylvari's presence. If the risen had been there since the tsunami 100 years prior to GW2, then the Grove would have been flooded with risen when the Firstborn came into existence 23 years prior to GW2.
4. I don't even know what you're trying to argue with your iceberg analogy here - or how you think my argument makes the rising of the Crystal Desert more implausible. Your statements make no coherent sense to me. And as Kavalier said, as I said, it isn't a matter of whether or not the Six could kill the Elder Dragons, it's the very fact that killing the Elder Dragons imbalance The All and that would still destroy Tyria. "We, the gods, saw that there could be no victory if we fought the Elder Dragons" does not mean "we could not kill the Elder Dragons" it means "even if we killed the Elder Dragons, Tyria would still be doomed" and that's because they didn't have an Aurene.

1. If you put a large object in a body of water the water will only recede when the large object is removed. The large object is in this case Orr.

2. See 1.

3. The Grove is solid and above water levels. The tsunami would just have impåacted against it and then be done unless it was exerting more force than the Three would withstand. It is magical in nature and absolutely huge I doubt that.

4 How would the gods know that? They were aliens. It's already been shown canonically that their brand of magic mixes badly with the natural flow in how Kralk was unable to digest Balthazar properly. And again. The reason Kormir gives for leaving is that the collateral damage would be massive instead of "the world will be destroyed either way." Something we already knew and that she as the goddess of truth should have had no qualms about telling us if they knew as well. The only way this argument can be considered is if the argument is assumed to mean that Kormir lied despite having no motive at all to do so. And if she lied its just evidence that none of the gods gives a single solitary kitten about anyone of the humans on Tyria as long as they worship them and their egos.

Afaik Tyria has no fault lines. Orr could easily be risen because it had once been above water. The Crystal Desert is the constant mass it has always been. For the gods to have risen it, their power would have had to reach all the way below the crust of Tyria and push from down there. This would take several times more power than what it took to restore Orr back to its position above water.

The issue is that all of the things that some of the things the gods have taken credit for become plain impossible when taken in the context of how it would have worked.

[Malus.2184]

6 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You do understand the Maw of Torment literally exists ONLY because Abaddon was defeated and cast down there? There was no sulfur before Abaddon was defeated and imprisoned. IIRC you can even see his mask there before Varesh finishes the ritual that breaks open the seal.

Does that counter anything I've said? Even if The Desolation was a lush as The Heart of Maguuma before the death of Abbadon it would still have turned into a barren wasteland since nothing living can coexist with abundant amounts of sulfur since it effectively displaces the air that everything living breathes since it's heavier than most of the components of air.

[Kalavier.1097]

32 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Does that counter anything I've said? Even if The Desolation was a lush as The Heart of Maguuma before the death of Abbadon it would still have turned into a barren wasteland since nothing living can coexist with abundant amounts of sulfur since it effectively displaces the air that everything living breathes since it's heavier than most of the components of air.

You are acting as if the gods are lying about the destruction dealt to the crystal desert.

The fact the crystal desert and the desolation are the ways it is now, is BECAUSE Abaddon and the other gods waged war against each other.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

1. If you put a large object in a body of water the water will only recede when the large object is removed. The large object is in this case Orr.

2. See 1.

3. The Grove is solid and above water levels. The tsunami would just have impåacted against it and then be done unless it was exerting more force than the Three would withstand. It is magical in nature and absolutely huge I doubt that.

... You are now contradicting your prior statements. You earlier claimed that the Crystal Desert could not alter water levels of the ocean unless the gods burned away an insane amount of water. But Orr is enough to raise water levels by 30 ft permanently by simply being raised? I mean your very comment is contradictory - when Orr is removed (read: above water level), the water went up. By your claim, the water would go down instead.

And the Grove being impacted by the tsunami was irrelevant to the comment, you said "Caledon forest is flooded with Risen that came to shore on the tsunami." and I was pointing out this is false and now you're saying the tsunami would have just impacted and then be done, which means no effect - not even permanent flooding, which runs counter to your claim of what would happen to LA due to Orr's, uhm... addition apparently? Arbor Bay in GW1 was bit of a bog, but drained 

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

4 How would the gods know that? They were aliens. It's already been shown canonically that their brand of magic mixes badly with the natural flow in how Kralk was unable to digest Balthazar properly. And again. The reason Kormir gives for leaving is that the collateral damage would be massive instead of "the world will be destroyed either way." Something we already knew and that she as the goddess of truth should have had no qualms about telling us if they knew as well. The only way this argument can be considered is if the argument is assumed to mean that Kormir lied despite having no motive at all to do so. And if she lied its just evidence that none of the gods gives a single solitary kitten about anyone of the humans on Tyria as long as they worship them and their egos.

Afaik Tyria has no fault lines. Orr could easily be risen because it had once been above water. The Crystal Desert is the constant mass it has always been. For the gods to have risen it, their power would have had to reach all the way below the crust of Tyria and push from down there. This would take several times more power than what it took to restore Orr back to its position above water.

The issue is that all of the things that some of the things the gods have taken credit for become plain impossible when taken in the context of how it would have worked.

How did they even know of the Elder Dragons' existence when they appeared after they slept and left before they woke?

The how isn't important. The why is - and the why is exactly as stated.

And yes, the reason is the collateral. The collateral of the All being imbalanced. How do you think that collateral would take place? Kormir simply states:

Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.

Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze.

And in the Daybreak trailer, an extra line of the dialogue is played:

Quote

That conflict could only end in two ways, the ruin of the six, or the utter destruction of Tyria's magical balance.

How did Kormir know that killing the Elder Dragons would ruin Tyria's magical balance? Any many number of ways - the Forgotten, Glint, talking to Soo-Won, or the Six studying the magical system over the course of 2,000+ years.

The how isn't important, the important fact is they knew.

To answer the question "how do they know" in the way of Boticca in S4E2:

Mysterious Charr: Because I know.

 

There is no issue in this. The only issue comes because you believe that the Six Gods are not strong enough to kill the Elder Dragons but claim to be strong enough to shift landmasses. But the very premise of that belief is wrong, because the Six and Elder Dragons are of near equal power - just as Zhaitan rose Orr and Jormag shattered the Shiverpeaks on their individual merits, the Six combined rose the Crystal Desert.

If the Crystal Desert is 3x the size of Orr, roughly, one would think they'd need 3x the power than Zhaitan rising Orr. This means that even if the gods were half as strong as the Elder Dragons on a 1:1 scale, the logic works out still.

Hell that works out overall too, because 6 gods >= 1 Elder Dragons whether the gods are 1:1 the strength of Elder Dragons or 1:2 the strength of Elder Dragons.

 

[Malus.2184]

16 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

... You are now contradicting your prior statements. You earlier claimed that the Crystal Desert could not alter water levels of the ocean unless the gods burned away an insane amount of water. But Orr is enough to raise water levels by 30 ft permanently by simply being raised? I mean your very comment is contradictory - when Orr is removed (read: above water level), the water went up. By your claim, the water would go down instead.

And the Grove being impacted by the tsunami was irrelevant to the comment, you said "Caledon forest is flooded with Risen that came to shore on the tsunami." and I was pointing out this is false and now you're saying the tsunami would have just impacted and then be done, which means no effect - not even permanent flooding, which runs counter to your claim of what would happen to LA due to Orr's, uhm... addition apparently? Arbor Bay in GW1 was bit of a bog, but drained 

How did they even know of the Elder Dragons' existence when they appeared after they slept and left before they woke?

The how isn't important. The why is - and the why is exactly as stated.

And yes, the reason is the collateral. The collateral of the All being imbalanced. How do you think that collateral would take place? Kormir simply states:

Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.

Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze.

And in the Daybreak trailer, an extra line of the dialogue is played:

How did Kormir know that killing the Elder Dragons would ruin Tyria's magical balance? Any many number of ways - the Forgotten, Glint, talking to Soo-Won, or the Six studying the magical system over the course of 2,000+ years.

The how isn't important, the important fact is they knew.

To answer the question "how do they know" in the way of Boticca in S4E2:

Mysterious Charr: Because I know.

 

There is no issue in this. The only issue comes because you believe that the Six Gods are not strong enough to kill the Elder Dragons but claim to be strong enough to shift landmasses. But the very premise of that belief is wrong, because the Six and Elder Dragons are of near equal power - just as Zhaitan rose Orr and Jormag shattered the Shiverpeaks on their individual merits, the Six combined rose the Crystal Desert.

If the Crystal Desert is 3x the size of Orr, roughly, one would think they'd need 3x the power than Zhaitan rising Orr. This means that even if the gods were half as strong as the Elder Dragons on a 1:1 scale, the logic works out still.

Hell that works out overall too, because 6 gods >= 1 Elder Dragons whether the gods are 1:1 the strength of Elder Dragons or 1:2 the strength of Elder Dragons.

 

I never claimed that The Crystal Desert did, I've always claimed that Orr did. Nothing has changed there. The mass displacement of the Crystal Desert would have been negligent since it was already close enough to the surface to have islands. Most of the mass of The Crystal Desert would already have been factored in. Orr having sunk a long way down would be a huge displacement of mass that caused sea levels to drop and when it rose to the surface they rose again. Nothing is inconsistent about the laws of physics when it comes to that event.

You used the tsunami as evidence since it never affected Caledon Forest, which it most certainly did. The lack of Orr would be a displacement event that led to the coastline around Caledon Forest growing due to the preceding of water. When Orr rose again the water line diminished. And you're correct in that the Risen would have had to come later since the Tree only came into existence properly after the whole Orr debacle which was 140 years before the game began and Sylvari at that time had only been around for about 20 years. That leaves a timeline gap of 120 years during which no one lived in that area. It also puts any flooding 120 years prior to any Sylvari and 120 years is a lot when it comes to nature being able to regrow. Just look at the area where the Exxon Valdez sank. You're unable to see any impact of the oil disaster that followed.

We subconsciously choose our words to communicate a given thing when we speak habitually. She says "Waging war with...," instead of, "Killing the..." This is a sentence structure that implies that it would be a long conflict that would destroy everything.

And I'm doubtful that they could kill the Eldar Dragons since if the Elder Dragons they went after managed to weaken one of them enough then the Eldar Dragon would absorb them, regain its power, and effectively reset the fight. They would only be able to get the kill if they totally overpowered the Elder Dragons. And if they did that then there would be no war or even a need to kill them since the gods could force the Elder Dragons to continue doing what they had always done.

If they had enough power to do one thing then by consistency they would also have the power to do the next thing. What I notice is inconsistencies and the story about what supposedly happened is inconsistent with what they would be able to.

[Malus.2184]

18 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

You are acting as if the gods are lying about the destruction dealt to the crystal desert.

The fact the crystal desert and the desolation are the ways it is now, is BECAUSE Abaddon and the other gods waged war against each other.

Yes I do, I do believe they caused great damage that accelerated the events already in motion. That they caused it is inconsistent with their hypothetical actions against the Elder Dragons as their prior action would require so much power that they could easily overpower the Elder Dragons and force them to do their bidding. Yet, they flee, which is inconsistent with what they claimed to do.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

9 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Yes I do, I do believe they caused great damage that accelerated the events already in motion. That they caused it is inconsistent with their hypothetical actions against the Elder Dragons as their prior action would require so much power that they could easily overpower the Elder Dragons and force them to do their bidding. Yet, they flee, which is inconsistent with what they claimed to do.

Sure, multiple God's could maybe overpower an elder dragon but there is no way that the 6 could keep all 5 Dragon's under their thumb. Especially when you consider that the Dragon's can't be taimed. 

Imagine having to contain 5 Lions that not only hate your guts but see you as a prime snack. ONE slip up means doom. 

Kralk got the power of a fallen God and we did see how much this ducked up the whole balance of the world. Now imagine him eating a full powered God. 

Thats GG right there. Not only for tyria. But that's a multiversal threath. 

[Kalavier.1097]

29 minutes ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Sure, multiple God's could maybe overpower an elder dragon but there is no way that the 6 could keep all 5 Dragon's under their thumb. Especially when you consider that the Dragon's can't be taimed. 

Imagine having to contain 5 Lions that not only hate your guts but see you as a prime snack. ONE slip up means doom. 

Kralk got the power of a fallen God and we did see how much this ducked up the whole balance of the world. Now imagine him eating a full powered God. 

Thats GG right there. Not only for tyria. But that's a multiversal threath. 

Also the fact that even in a hypothetical "One god can match one dragon" If the god dies, the dragon absorbs their powers and abilities. Imagine Kralk but not just able to breach portals in and out of the mists, but also able to effortlessly disguise his entire self. Or a legion of branded minions.

A coastal town looks out and sees some rain clouds moving in. It's just another day, get your hats and make sure the stuff that shouldn't get wet is covered up or inside. But that is no rain storm, merely the illusion of one disguising a massive brandstorm turning everything it touches into the brand and spreading a horde of minions.

A god may be able to absorb the dragon's power as well, but it's unclear the damage that may happen. Balthazar took a little bit to absorb the bloodstone's blast, which ruined the area around the shattered bloodstone. Abaddon's death, even in the realm of torment split enough magic to start the dragon's waking up.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

58 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

I never claimed that The Crystal Desert did, I've always claimed that Orr did. Nothing has changed there.

From the very first post:

On 9/7/2023 at 12:37 PM, Malus.2184 said:

- The only way this could be true was if the battle of the gods had burned away roughly five meters of the global water level else the vacuum created in Elona when the sea evaporated would have been filled by the rest of the ocean and I think someone would have noticed if their coastline suddenly moved. Continuous burning would have required a lot of energy. Just look at all the water in the Unending Ocean and that's only 1/4th of the total landmass.

Yeah, you did.

58 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

The mass displacement of the Crystal Desert would have been negligent since it was already close enough to the surface to have islands. Most of the mass of The Crystal Desert would already have been factored in. Orr having sunk a long way down would be a huge displacement of mass that caused sea levels to drop and when it rose to the surface they rose again. Nothing is inconsistent about the laws of physics when it comes to that event.
 

So... There is no issue with them having raised the Crystal Sea surface and it wouldn't cause the massive scale of cataclysm you previously suggested because it was already close to the surface level due to the presence of islands?

Cool, looks like we solved the issue of the thread. Time to close!

58 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

You used the tsunami as evidence since it never affected Caledon Forest, which it most certainly did.

Ignoring the total lack of any evidence backing this claim, that's not what I said at all. I, in fact, never brought up the tsunami in relation to Caledon Forest - just to Kryta, Amnoon, Droknar's Forge, Istan, and Cantha. The first person to mention the Caledon Forest / Tarnished Coast was... you. And you made the claim that the tsunami flooded the area with risen "as evident in-game", but I countered this claim by pointing out NPCs say the risen presence is recent, post-sylvari, and made a logical argument for why that makes sense.

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

We subconsciously choose our words to communicate a given thing when we speak habitually. She says "Waging war with...," instead of, "Killing the..." This is a sentence structure that implies that it would be a long conflict that would destroy everything.

Issue with your logic is that this was deliberately written by someone and the developers confirmed the dialogue with Kormir went through several iterations. So there is no "subconsciously chosen words" Also a long conflict wouldn't affect the magical balance of Tyria

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

And I'm doubtful that they could kill the Eldar Dragons since if the Elder Dragons they went after managed to weaken one of them enough then the Eldar Dragon would absorb them, regain its power, and effectively reset the fight. They would only be able to get the kill if they totally overpowered the Elder Dragons. And if they did that then there would be no war or even a need to kill them since the gods could force the Elder Dragons to continue doing what they had always done.

If they had enough power to do one thing then by consistency they would also have the power to do the next thing. What I notice is inconsistencies and the story about what supposedly happened is inconsistent with what they would be able to.

By that logic the Commander should have been incapable of killing the Elder Dragons because even though they just barely managed to take down Zhaitan with an army the later Elder Dragons got supercharged.

But yet the Commander managed to take out the Void with... pretty much zero casualties, meaning it was technically easier for the Commander and co. than Zhaitan or Mordremoth were.

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

Yes I do, I do believe they caused great damage that accelerated the events already in motion. That they caused it is inconsistent with their hypothetical actions against the Elder Dragons as their prior action would require so much power that they could easily overpower the Elder Dragons and force them to do their bidding. Yet, they flee, which is inconsistent with what they claimed to do.

They didn't "flee" though. Even if their action was leaving, the mentality was not "running away" despite your insistence.

You're literally ignoring all the evidence to push your agenda, to the point of self-contradiction and blaming others for things never said.

[Kalavier.1097]

Just a question since it's come up a few times in his posts I think.

 

When did we ever hear that the crystal sea was shallow? They had leviathans and Lupis living there, as well as a sea-faring nation.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Just a question since it's come up a few times in his posts I think.

 

When did we ever hear that the crystal sea was shallow? They had leviathans and Lupis living there, as well as a sea-faring nation.

We didn't. The first time it got mentioned in this thread was draxynnic suggesting it as a possibility.

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

We didn't. The first time it got mentioned in this thread was draxynnic suggesting it as a possibility.

I didn't even do that. I suggested that it might have been at higher altitude than the regular sea level and that it was possibly slowly draining beforehand, and the war of the gods boiling off the water accelerated the process.

Something that is worth repeating, though, is that we have solid evidence that both the gods and the Elder Dragons are able to access magics capable of causing land to raise or sink. Trahearne, for instance, says "His temple was cast down to the depths as a result (of the war)." So even if the destruction of the Crystal Sea would have required an adjustment in elevation, we have independent evidence that the gods are capable of doing that.

And we know that the dragons are capable of it too, as seen with Zhaitan raising Orr, so this is not evidence that the gods could have cakewalked the dragons, but that they're on similar levels of power..

[Malus.2184]

20 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

From the very first post:

Yeah, you did.

So... There is no issue with them having raised the Crystal Sea surface and it wouldn't cause the massive scale of cataclysm you previously suggested because it was already close to the surface level due to the presence of islands?

Cool, looks like we solved the issue of the thread. Time to close!

Ignoring the total lack of any evidence backing this claim, that's not what I said at all. I, in fact, never brought up the tsunami in relation to Caledon Forest - just to Kryta, Amnoon, Droknar's Forge, Istan, and Cantha. The first person to mention the Caledon Forest / Tarnished Coast was... you. And you made the claim that the tsunami flooded the area with risen "as evident in-game", but I countered this claim by pointing out NPCs say the risen presence is recent, post-sylvari, and made a logical argument for why that makes sense.

Issue with your logic is that this was deliberately written by someone and the developers confirmed the dialogue with Kormir went through several iterations. So there is no "subconsciously chosen words" Also a long conflict wouldn't affect the magical balance of Tyria

By that logic the Commander should have been incapable of killing the Elder Dragons because even though they just barely managed to take down Zhaitan with an army the later Elder Dragons got supercharged.

But yet the Commander managed to take out the Void with... pretty much zero casualties, meaning it was technically easier for the Commander and co. than Zhaitan or Mordremoth were.

They didn't "flee" though. Even if their action was leaving, the mentality was not "running away" despite your insistence.

You're literally ignoring all the evidence to push your agenda, to the point of self-contradiction and blaming others for things never said.

You should read what I wrote properly as it was about the global effect of the water level dropping if the Crystal Desert was cleared that way. It was never about the effects of the Crystal Desert riding, which would have a significantly lower global effect.

And I did acknowledge the whole Caledon thing so, the only reason you bring it up as an own is that you never bothered to read past the initial paragraph of that reply, which to me is an indicator that at this point it's just rage-posting.

Your argument about the Elder Dragons is baffling to me that you think it's an argument. Zhaitain was defeated by technological advances, the army was just there to transport it there. And it's evidence that the technological advances are stronger than the gods when they're in the material plane. This is literally the trope of "the monster is no longer scary when it can be hurt." When you have weaponry that can damage C'Thulhu C'Thulhu is no longer as scary as it was.

Both Mordremoth and Kralk got killed where they were weakest, from the inside. It was even acknowledged in the story that killing them from the outside would be impossible for this or that reason.

Primordus and Jormag killed each other on a million-to-one chance that only worked through pure narrative convenience.

Soo-Won was defeated due to a power boost from Aurene that allowed us to fight her. She was killed voluntarily by the same device that wounded Aurene, again, technology made it possible. The monster is no longer scary when we can hurt it.

SotO is the same, Cerus is scary in the first encounter since we're unable to fight back and significantly less scary in the last encounter once we can. This is a common trope used in horror movies. The only exception is in Predator (1987) where the audience is shown early on that the monster can be hurt which somehow makes it even scarier.

And even if something goes through several iterations there's still a bias. I'm educated in the scientific method and there's a literal point in studies that you have to reflect on your own bias and write down what you did to mitigate it. It's a pure chance if the common person doing writing knows this as it falls outside of the scope of their work.

And I'm sure that their conscious mentality was "not running away" as no one ever does anything that can be interpreted as bad in their own consciousness. It still changes nothing about what they did though since if they were able to do A even by accident then they would also be able to do B if it was related.

[Malus.2184]

21 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

Sure, multiple God's could maybe overpower an elder dragon but there is no way that the 6 could keep all 5 Dragon's under their thumb. Especially when you consider that the Dragon's can't be taimed. 

Imagine having to contain 5 Lions that not only hate your guts but see you as a prime snack. ONE slip up means doom. 

Kralk got the power of a fallen God and we did see how much this ducked up the whole balance of the world. Now imagine him eating a full powered God. 

Thats GG right there. Not only for tyria. But that's a multiversal threath. 

Please use small "g" gods as that implies polytheism and a capital "G" implies monotheism.  And I never used the word "tamed" you did, I used "forced." Using tamed in this context is like saying that slavery was something people did willingly. And I think what he ate was a full-powered god, at least their full power in the mortal realm. It's a common trope that beings from another level of existence become weaker when manifesting in the mortal realm because the source of their power, in this case, Mist Essence, is in significantly lower supply than where they normally live. I've no doubt that Balthazar would have been significantly stronger in The Fissure of Woe.

Balthazar himself says that absorbing the bloodstone was for him to regain his power instead of enforcing the power he has, and while he was disguised as Lazerus at the time there's no reason to lie when the truth does a better job. He was also the god of war and given how the Domains that the gods controlled affected their behaviour I strongly doubt that he would have any time for subterfuge, that strikes me more like an Abbadon thing. If he was still below power there are ways that he could have regained them. I doubt he could have snacked on a leyline like the Elder Dragons did as he was an alien and he could still have absorbed the power from more material magic sources in a way similar to Zhaitan.