I know staff will be support, but Wukong inspired melee monk would be way cooler

[draxynnic.3719]

On 9/15/2023 at 12:17 AM, anbujackson.9564 said:

Just keep thinking to yourself how it has to function.

Highest support value on F1 would be horrible. A berserker F1 burst being support would be kind of goofy. Staff weapon skills would have to be ridicoulus strong to be even remotely useful.

Its hybrid at best. Might as well give it a full dps treatment and feed the memes of warrior.

I don't know, I could see it being played out as a 'get so mad at my allies getting hurt that I found a way to channel that rage into healing them' thing.

The bigger issue, though, is that putting a lot of healing on the burst skill would leave bladesworn in the lurch, and might also have implications for spellbreaker. So they might decide to keep the healing in the regular skills. The burst skills might still have some degree of support to them rather than being damage-oriented, however.

[erapago.4387]

On 9/15/2023 at 6:30 PM, Infinity.2876 said:

I already did a little bit of thinking about it already, but that post got buried.

spoilers are for keeping the post short.

Here are my thoughts:

  Reveal hidden contents

AA: range spear throw that enemies in a line and pierces and does more dmg if you have might. (I don't think that the aa should do anything supporty because that would introduce powercreep and weird balance)

2 skill: throw a banner into an enemy and dmg them allies within the radius gain might and heal, enemies gain weakness (pulsing)

3 skill: conjure a balustrade at the target location enemies in front gain damage and bleed, allies behind it gain protection (pulsing)

4 skill: call down a rain of spears at the location damaging foes and granting swiftness and fury to allies

5 skill: evade forwards, gain swiftness and adrenaline.

burst: throw a banner into the enemy dmging it and pulse alac to allies near it

berserker burst: throw spear into an enemy which pulses burning, bleeding, cripple to any of its allies in a radius around it.

spellbreaker burst: throw a spear into an enemy, the first 7 boons applied to it and then reduces any boon durations after by 25% for a few seconds

 

notes: this a rough idea and I am open to suggestions.

 

Why would the Spellbreaker burst be different than Core?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 minutes ago, erapago.4387 said:

Why would the Spellbreaker burst be different than Core?

Lack of a tier 2 and tier 3 version

[Fueki.4753]

25 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Lack of a tier 2 and tier 3 version

The proposed idea in the quote would give Spellbreaker an entirely different Burst than core. It's not just a lack of Tier scaling.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[KryTiKaL.3125]

6 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Lack of a tier 2 and tier 3 version

I think they need to lean more into the "Spellbreaker" aspect of the actual Spellbreaker class. They are insisting on adding more boons while decreasing the amount of boon strips/corrupts, which I think is a wildly foolish mistake, so that entire class is just becoming...nothing in the big picture. The entire point of it is getting stripped away because it isn't even good at what it is supposedly intended to be the "best" at doing, not even just by its namesake but by its class design.

If they really are listening to feedback, or even ideas, then they should considering extending the Disenchantment effect from Winds onto other things within Spellbreaker. Maybe attaching it to Breaching Strike as well as Full Counter, give the damage against boonless foes bonus a bump at the same time so that Disenchantment can actually facilitate that bonus actually being useful. Especially if they want to, for some weird bizarre nonsense reason, keep Breaching Strikes damage the way it is in competitive modes. Removing 3 boons amounts to nothing in WvW/PvP these days. They have another boon up and running a half second later because the amount of things that just give a boon such as traits or a skill is...a lot. The frequency of boon application compared to how often you can even tag someone with Spellbreaker's tragically limited boon stripping, does not really ever give you an opportunity to see the tiny little 5% damage bonus against boonless foes actually do anything.

Anyway, I don't anticipate Staff solving anything with Warrior and it is likely to just become yet another melee weapon that probably won't be all that good.

Edited September 20, 2023 by KryTiKaL.3125

[Myror.7521]

Still thinking more or less need a healing e-spec and not just a heal focused weapon. (Or at least a good offensive support one) besides this i would love to be able to use staff as sythe ^^ cause you know? AoE dmg in this Game is the strongest kitten you can have but also it would look realy good in warr ^^

[Fueki.4753]

10 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

I think they need to lean more into the "Spellbreaker" aspect of the actual Spellbreaker class. They are insisting on adding more boons while decreasing the amount of boon strips/corrupts, which I think is a wildly foolish mistake, so that entire class is just becoming...nothing in the big picture. The entire point of it is getting stripped away because it isn't even good at what it is supposedly intended to be the "best" at doing, not even just by its namesake but by its class design.

At this point, Spellbreaker is but an empty name. Given Warrior's treatment in its entirety, I doubt they'll ever change anything about that in the future.

Its lore got largely retconned as early as Season 4 episode 1. Its defining gameplay features have been neutered. Even its Daggers aren't its own anymore.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[draxynnic.3719]

Spellbreaker really needs better utilities. The only ones you ever see are the elite and Break Enchantments in WvW. There could be room there to really lean into the W/Me magehunter theme.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

They should left the full counter alone at release and left the damage on it and ignore all the silver rank nerf cries that whined about it. FC is splb whole identity in that one skill and given its obvious tell and the fact it promotes not spamming skills at the spellbreaker and requires attacking while it's active it should have a very significant impact when landed. Games slowly being destroyed by silver players constant and Neverending nerf cries.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

They should left the full counter alone at release and left the damage on it and ignore all the silver rank nerf cries that whined about it. FC is splb whole identity in that one skill and given its obvious tell and the fact it promotes not spamming skills at the spellbreaker and requires attacking while it's active it should have a very significant impact when landed. Games slowly being destroyed by silver players constant and Neverending nerf cries.

To be fair, the problem with 'don't hit them' is that you can still cop it if your ally hits them. For a long time, too, there was a visual bug that came up occasionally where the warrior would have the full counter graphic for the entire fight.

Could have made it a trait choice if you wanted CC or damage, though.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

9 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

To be fair, the problem with 'don't hit them' is that you can still cop it if your ally hits them. For a long time, too, there was a visual bug that came up occasionally where the warrior would have the full counter graphic for the entire fight.

Could have made it a trait choice if you wanted CC or damage, though.

The visual bug was deff a issue but bug should been squashed and call it a day, if u got hit cuz teamate hit the war thats on teamate for spamming and on u for positioning. I usually just gained some distance then activated fc on war from any ranged skill I had if war wasn't around teamates, made fc almost useless.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[draxynnic.3719]

4 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

The visual bug was deff a issue but bug should been squashed and call it a day, if u got hit cuz teamate hit the war thats on teamate for spamming and on u for positioning. I usually just gained some distance then activated fc on war from any ranged skill I had if war wasn't around teamates, made fc almost useless.

'Don't get within 300 range of the spellbreaker just in case they use Full Counter and a teammate catches them with an AoE' is a bigger ask then you're making it out to be, especially if you're contesting a point, there are several other members of the enemy team to keep track of, and/or the spellbreaker is chasing you down. If one skill is forcing an entire enemy teamfight to split up and to avoid using AoE themselves in order to avoid accidentally triggering the skill, it might be having a disproportionate effect even if it never actually triggers.

Don't get me wrong, I think it was overnerfed, but I think you're also underplaying how oppressive it could be when it was at full strength (although on release, there was also support firebrand and the brokenness of release scourge on the field).

[KryTiKaL.3125]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

'Don't get within 300 range of the spellbreaker just in case they use Full Counter and a teammate catches them with an AoE' is a bigger ask then you're making it out to be, especially if you're contesting a point, there are several other members of the enemy team to keep track of, and/or the spellbreaker is chasing you down. If one skill is forcing an entire enemy teamfight to split up and to avoid using AoE themselves in order to avoid accidentally triggering the skill, it might be having a disproportionate effect even if it never actually triggers.

Don't get me wrong, I think it was overnerfed, but I think you're also underplaying how oppressive it could be when it was at full strength (although on release, there was also support firebrand and the brokenness of release scourge on the field).

Not to mention it was also triggering things like Adrenal Health and Berserker's Power upon the counterattack being simply activated and required no actual hit upon an enemy to occur.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

'Don't get within 300 range of the spellbreaker just in case they use Full Counter and a teammate catches them with an AoE' is a bigger ask then you're making it out to be, especially if you're contesting a point, there are several other members of the enemy team to keep track of, and/or the spellbreaker is chasing you down. If one skill is forcing an entire enemy teamfight to split up and to avoid using AoE themselves in order to avoid accidentally triggering the skill, it might be having a disproportionate effect even if it never actually triggers.

Don't get me wrong, I think it was overnerfed, but I think you're also underplaying how oppressive it could be when it was at full strength (although on release, there was also support firebrand and the brokenness of release scourge on the field).

Let's not forget FC is not perma duration and has a cd. In a game where multiple classes can stealth and burst 20k outa stealth, lb slb/untamed bursts, chrono burst/design, etc etc how u guys are making FC out to be is so laughable. Like do u guys seriously just play ignorant to what kinda specs and the cheese possible with those spec that exist in this game along side FC and its FC that was op, u serious? It's easy to see how this ridiculous pvp community has kept warrior in a $hit state for so long, literally any time it's meta its gotta be op and deleted according to the pvp community. Whenever splb was meta it kept eating nerfs cuz it kept being played cuz was always still best choice, bladesworn happened and Whenever meta......nerf threads of course. Now only reason war is meta is cuz relic raised condi zerk up.

It's funny in a mmo where a lot of the specs rely on cheese mechanics to remain viable u guys sure do some work complaining so much about a class that probably has the least cheese and biggest animation tells lol, I say thos as a non war main to.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[Shagie.7612]

30 minutes ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Now only reason war is meta is cuz relic raised condi zerk up.

czerk was still meta before the expac launched, tho
like the only thing it did was make it even more nuts because akeem is busted?

lol

[KryTiKaL.3125]

1 hour ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Let's not forget FC is not perma duration and has a cd. In a game where multiple classes can stealth and burst 20k outa stealth, lb slb/untamed bursts, chrono burst/design, etc etc how u guys are making FC out to be is so laughable. Like do u guys seriously just play ignorant to what kinda specs and the cheese possible with those spec that exist in this game along side FC and its FC that was op, u serious? It's easy to see how this ridiculous pvp community has kept warrior in a $hit state for so long, literally any time it's meta its gotta be op and deleted according to the pvp community. Whenever splb was meta it kept eating nerfs cuz it kept being played cuz was always still best choice, bladesworn happened and Whenever meta......nerf threads of course. Now only reason war is meta is cuz relic raised condi zerk up.

It's funny in a mmo where a lot of the specs rely on cheese mechanics to remain viable u guys sure do some work complaining so much about a class that probably has the least cheese and biggest animation tells lol, I say thos as a non war main to.

Because while many here are Warrior mains that doesn't mean Warrior didn't have some issues that propped it up with unhealthy gimmicks just the same, but thats also just a design issue with Warrior where it literally cannot seem to do well without them. Thats sort of a design issue with the entire game, yes, with many of the examples you describe. It is a viciously one sided, weird, bizarre scenario where ANet legitimately does allow these crazy bursts to happen on other classes with very little effort, yet they will go and cut Warrior damage down to such a point that it either has tremendous difficulty or just cannot functionally kill most builds on other classes.

Its weird, genuinely weird. Now either ANet has some backroom secret upcoming balance change or addition to the game they are holding out for or they just fundamentally don't want to bother with just giving Warrior the access to tools other classes have in competitive modes, so Warrior just feels outright worse to play because the payoff to the effort expended is not equitable. Its speaks to how this "power budget" ideology they want to implement, or are implementing, is not being applied properly with Warrior, possibly due to a lack of understanding of how it feels to play it in competitive modes.

[Infinity.2876]

On 9/20/2023 at 4:24 PM, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

I think they need to lean more into the "Spellbreaker" aspect of the actual Spellbreaker class. They are insisting on adding more boons while decreasing the amount of boon strips/corrupts, which I think is a wildly foolish mistake, so that entire class is just becoming...nothing in the big picture. The entire point of it is getting stripped away because it isn't even good at what it is supposedly intended to be the "best" at doing, not even just by its namesake but by its class design.

If they really are listening to feedback, or even ideas, then they should considering extending the Disenchantment effect from Winds onto other things within Spellbreaker. Maybe attaching it to Breaching Strike as well as Full Counter, give the damage against boonless foes bonus a bump at the same time so that Disenchantment can actually facilitate that bonus actually being useful. Especially if they want to, for some weird bizarre nonsense reason, keep Breaching Strikes damage the way it is in competitive modes. Removing 3 boons amounts to nothing in WvW/PvP these days. They have another boon up and running a half second later because the amount of things that just give a boon such as traits or a skill is...a lot. The frequency of boon application compared to how often you can even tag someone with Spellbreaker's tragically limited boon stripping, does not really ever give you an opportunity to see the tiny little 5% damage bonus against boonless foes actually do anything.

Anyway, I don't anticipate Staff solving anything with Warrior and it is likely to just become yet another melee weapon that probably won't be all that good.

That was actually my bad I had a typo.

Generally What I was doing with adding a different burst to spellbreaker was because it isn't support based. (sure you can try but good luck with that) It works well as one of the only boonstrippers in the game and I thought it could use a decent ranged weapon.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Infinity.2876

[Jzaku.9765]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

'Don't get within 300 range of the spellbreaker just in case they use Full Counter and a teammate catches them with an AoE' is a bigger ask then you're making it out to be, especially if you're contesting a point, there are several other members of the enemy team to keep track of, and/or the spellbreaker is chasing you down. If one skill is forcing an entire enemy teamfight to split up and to avoid using AoE themselves in order to avoid accidentally triggering the skill, it might be having a disproportionate effect even if it never actually triggers.

Don't get me wrong, I think it was overnerfed, but I think you're also underplaying how oppressive it could be when it was at full strength (although on release, there was also support firebrand and the brokenness of release scourge on the field).

I'm of the opinion that it was a terrible idea from the start to put the entirety of the espec mechanic into ONE button. It's endemic of Warrior design honestly, it's the simple and straightforward class, so this lack of complexity also means there's no backup plan when your one good thing gets nerfed. 

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Let's not forget FC is not perma duration and has a cd. In a game where multiple classes can stealth and burst 20k outa stealth, lb slb/untamed bursts, chrono burst/design, etc etc how u guys are making FC out to be is so laughable. Like do u guys seriously just play ignorant to what kinda specs and the cheese possible with those spec that exist in this game along side FC and its FC that was op, u serious? It's easy to see how this ridiculous pvp community has kept warrior in a $hit state for so long, literally any time it's meta its gotta be op and deleted according to the pvp community. Whenever splb was meta it kept eating nerfs cuz it kept being played cuz was always still best choice, bladesworn happened and Whenever meta......nerf threads of course. Now only reason war is meta is cuz relic raised condi zerk up.

It's funny in a mmo where a lot of the specs rely on cheese mechanics to remain viable u guys sure do some work complaining so much about a class that probably has the least cheese and biggest animation tells lol, I say thos as a non war main to.

The cooldown is 8s, and the spellbreaker chooses when to use it. So if they've JUST used it, there's an 8s window during which you could pressure them... if they don't have other defenses they can use in that period. After that... FC may have a big tell, but the activation time is short enough to use it reactively. They can use when they see an attack is already coming, or a trick that I could pull even on Australian ping, if there's any persistent enemy AoE on the ground, the SB can walk into it for a guaranteed high damage 300-range unblockable CC.

The steps needed to remove that threat are oppressive enough that if you followed all of them, the SB's team still wins due to how much you're handicapping yourself against everything else. You can't use any AoE, especially persistent AoE, anywhere near the SB. You have to spread out, which limits your ability to benefit from your support and might hinder your ability to focus fire on enemy targets. You can't peel the SB off THEIR focus target, because that's likely what will give them the opportunity to FC. In short, you're having to adjust your tactics so much that you're handicapping yourself, and if you do all that, the SB might not need to FC: the very possibility has already had a big impact.

The actual counter at the time was a firebrand support: enough stability to absorb the CC and enough damage reduction and/or healing to mitigate the damage. Core support guardian can also do the job somewhat.

Again, like a lot of warrior, FC was overnerfed by the 'CC does no damage' patch. But I think you're underplaying how oppressive it could be in its heyday, especially since support FB was also around for a lot of it. Particularly when you don't have much control over what your teammates do in a solo or duoqueue league match.

33 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

I'm of the opinion that it was a terrible idea from the start to put the entirety of the espec mechanic into ONE button. It's endemic of Warrior design honestly, it's the simple and straightforward class, so this lack of complexity also means there's no backup plan when your one good thing gets nerfed. 

Yeah, putting everything in one basket is a bad idea generally. I think a large part of the problem with spellbreaker is that the utilities aren't anything to get excited about, so spellbreaker is generally pretty much exactly like core warrior with a different relationship to adrenaline and one more button to press.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I always saw Wukong as too much of a trickster type to be associated with Warrior. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

IMHO: use the GM traits to radically change FC.

Enchantment collapse: grants barrier to allies in the area per boon removed in addition to its previous effects. This gives some extra support, make it 200 barrier per boon.

Revenge counter: transfers instead of copies conditions. Full counter's coefficient is increased, 2.4/1.0 PvE/Comp. The daze is removed. Give it back the damage at the expense of the daze.

Magebane tether: now tethers up to 3 foes pulsing might and boon removal per foe per interval. Gains a flip over, that uses no adrenaline, that breaks the tether but pulls the foes to you. Warrior needs better pulls in general, an AOE pull would go a long way.

[KryTiKaL.3125]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

IMHO: use the GM traits to radically change FC.

Enchantment collapse: grants barrier to allies in the area per boon removed in addition to its previous effects. This gives some extra support, make it 200 barrier per boon.

Revenge counter: transfers instead of copies conditions. Full counter's coefficient is increased, 2.4/1.0 PvE/Comp. The daze is removed. Give it back the damage at the expense of the daze.

Magebane tether: now tethers up to 3 foes pulsing might and boon removal per foe per interval. Gains a flip over, that uses no adrenaline, that breaks the tether but pulls the foes to you. Warrior needs better pulls in general, an AOE pull would go a long way.

Having more control over the Magebane pull would be nice by itself, because you could be less predictable with it. People can very easily figure out the range threshold to stay within so they don't get pulled, giving Spellbreaker the control to do it within a limited timeframe similar to Dragonhunter's Spear of Justice would be nice, to say the least.

I also still think they should stop with the removal of boon counterplay, or the severe lessening of it while also adding more boons. I get it, they want people to be able to take advantage of the things their builds do (thats kind of a joke though considering they don't let Warrior do that), but its creating so much powercreep again and is only strengthening the classes with significant access to boons over the threshold of acceptable. There needs to be a significant enough degree of counterplay to boons that just is not present in the game anymore, and it is becoming less present.

Point being, I think they should extend the Disenchantment effect that Winds of Disenchantment has to other things Spellbreaker does; such as maybe a trait that makes burst skills apply it (including Full Counter) as well as maybe changing up some of the Spellbreaker utilities to also apply it. Featherfoot Grace, Imminent Threat and Sight Beyond Sight all basically need to be reworked because thats 3 of the 4 utilities out of Spellbreaker that do not see use because they are either wildly niche or don't do enough to ever justify taking one over the usual skills we continue to see in use today.

Making Disenchantment a unique effect that only Spellbreaker can utilize to that capacity would instantly propel its relevance. Making someone unable to apply boons for a limited duration? Means they either dump their CD or trait ICD and get nothing out of it because they are button mashing rather than being tactical or they have to play smarter so as to avoid doing that. Further removal of boon counterplay is probably one of the biggest mistakes ANet is making these days. Absolutely foolish prospect of an idea to implement and it is showing in how this boon powercreep has effectively neutered the infamous 33% damage reduction update back in 2020. We're just back to where we were pre-February 2020 patch. I'm all for accessibility for newer players and such, and lessening learning curves for classes but its not being applied equally and its butchering balance. These new incoming weapons are going to further exacerbate this too.

Edited September 22, 2023 by KryTiKaL.3125