REMOVE DUO Q

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

1 hour ago, Ellie.5913 said:

@Multicolorhipster.9751

Oh wow, I  never paid that much attention to the pvp forums since it's usually people just begging for nerfs and asking them to remove things ( amulets, runes, maps, rewards etc.) from pvp which imo makes pvp less fun, but that is really disheartening. Looks like Anet already knows the way pvp is atm is really unfair for most of the players and that's exactly how they want it to be 🙁No wonder pvp is so empty these days. 

 

its safe to hold onto a little hope. Old dev, that. Not there anymore.

At the same time, Ben P was also the coolest of them all. At least he had the spine to tell us exactly how it was. Won't hear a word from CmC, Grouch, or whoever- else they hired on.

No, they just listen to those same people you and I hate. Pop in; nerf this, delete that, and then not a word for 2-3 months. Will duoq & class-swap ever be removed? How many licks does it take to get the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

10 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

You won't find them in game because they understand that duoq makes ranked not worth playing at all

Ok seriously, at some point you've got to let go of this.

The ratio of contribution that duo queue contributes bad matches vs. sheer match manipulation is like: "duo queue 10% - sheer match manipulation 90%". We are talking general smurfing, waaaaaay too many alts, people abusing private guilds in a low population to funnel seeding, something new going on where they fresh swap map lobbies to funnel seeding, classic win trading, and god knows what else is being employed.

I also notice and have heard many other normal organic queuers say that "they actually get more difficult matches when attempting to duo queue". I can vouch that. Every single time I try to duo queue and it doesn't matter who it's with, my matches become extremely impaired, like it seriously pulls the utmost bottom barrel low players to throw as my 3 PUGs. I actually get better matches when I solo queue. Why? Absolutely no idea but this has been going on for years.

Look man this is very simple to identify. Just because you bump into these certain duo queues at the top of the leaderboard who are clearly and obviously part of the match manipulation song & dance, that does not mean that the problem is duo queue, and removing duo queue is not going to stop them from match manipulating.

You can vouch for solo queue only all you want. I don't give a ****. I'm just pointing out the reality here that it will do absolutely nothing to enhance match quality. And that it's actually misinformation if not disinformation to keep making these threads and acting as if duo queue were the main culprit of bad matches, because nothing could be further from the truth. If people want to have these conversations, they should be focusing on the real problem, and that is the extreme levels of unmoderated match manipulation. Whether you want to see massive ban phases or simply a new game mode that is designed in such a way it intrinsically eliminates so many options of manipulation, either or is fine. But fighting a hard fight for years and years to turn duo queue into solo queue is just silly when anyone who really knows the game and what's going on could tell you that isn't gonna change squat.

100% guarantee you that nothing will change with a solo queue only system. Absolutely nothing.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

"Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."🙏

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Ok seriously, at some point you've got to let go of this.

No 🗿

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The ratio of contribution that duo queue contributes bad matches vs. sheer match manipulation is like: "duo queue 10% - sheer match manipulation 90%". We are talking general smurfing, waaaaaay too many alts, people abusing private guilds in a low population to funnel seeding, something new going on where they fresh swap map lobbies to funnel seeding, classic win trading, and god knows what else is being employed.

This is why you do not grade evils, because in the event that one finds a 'lesser evil' they are immediately drawn to kinship with it despite the fact that it is still without a doubt, evil.

And yes, He does. He knows, He sees, He understands, and He will smite them with all His wonders in time, but we can't expect Him to do all the work, at least; not without acting through us.

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I also notice and have heard many other normal organic queuers say that "they actually get more difficult matches when attempting to duo queue". I can vouch that. Every single time I try to duo queue and it doesn't matter who it's with, my matches become extremely impaired, like it seriously pulls the utmost bottom barrel low players to throw as my 3 PUGs. I actually get better matches when I solo queue. Why? Absolutely no idea but this has been going on for years.

Look man this is very simple to identify. Just because you bump into these certain duo queues at the top of the leaderboard who are clearly and obviously part of the match manipulation song & dance, that does not mean that the problem is duo queue, and removing duo queue is not going to stop them from match manipulating.

Anecdotal evidence is all well and good, but it is fact and truth that ultimately build a case for your position, not personal experience. After all, your personal experience with solo/duoq may differ wildly to anyone else's.

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You can vouch for solo queue only all you want. I don't give a ****. I'm just pointing out the reality here that it will do absolutely nothing to enhance match quality. And that it's actually misinformation if not disinformation to keep making these threads and acting as if duo queue were the main culprit of bad matches, because nothing could be further from the truth.

You sound like the cartel saying things like that. How many of these threads does there have to be; from multiple different people, for you to consider for a moment that it could be you, and not everyone else who is wrong?

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

If people want to have these conversations, they should be focusing on the real problem, and that is the extreme levels of unmoderated match manipulation. Whether you want to see massive ban phases or simply a new game mode that is designed in such a way it intrinsically eliminates so many options of manipulation, either or is fine. But fighting a hard fight for years and years to turn duo queue into solo queue is just silly when anyone who really knows the game and what's going on could tell you that isn't gonna change squat.

4 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

100% guarantee you that nothing will change with a solo queue only system. Absolutely nothing.

Wym? Been doing both of those.

What's better than soloq is soloq and teamq, split into 2 completely separate ranked gamemodes with separate leaderboards for tracking individual and team ratings. The retort there has always been that "the population is too low" 🤓😭

And fighting against match manipulation is a given because all match manipulation revolves around duoq in its current state.

Don't even know what you're complaining about really. If you don't want soloq, then you have exactly what you want already. Get out there and enjoy your game, yeah?

[Dickinson.7368]

37 minutes ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Don't even know what you're complaining about really. If you don't want soloq, then you have exactly what you want already. Get out there and enjoy your game, yeah?

In fact they dont.
What's the point of premades if it doesn't give you a massive advantage vs solo/PuG's?
 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

13 minutes ago, Dickinson.7368 said:

In fact they dont.
What's the point of premades if it doesn't give you a massive advantage vs solo/PuG's?
 

I think it would be to play with friends at that point, if it were premades vs other premades. It's the same excuse the wintraders always use "we just want to play with friends" but in that context it might be legitimate because premades vs other premades is fair by design, therefore it has potential to be fun.

But premades vs solos is an abomination. It is just stupid, unfair, profane, and the "I just want to play with friends" excuse doesn't work there. If it was really about playing with friends then you would think they would want to play with more than just 1 other friend and 3 totally random strangers. Its obvious, and they aren't slick. If they really wanted to play with friends, they wouldn't be begging to be matched with and against soloqs, and they would be upset with the current system that only allows them to queue with just 1 other friend at max in 5v5 conquest.

[dead.7638]

Duo q isn’t even about playing with your friend.   It’s about getting a silver rated player to duo with a plat player.   The mmr then pulls more silver players into the match and maybe 1-2 players that might be gold t1-2.   It’s screwy af and as long as there is 1-2 duo q doing this at any given time every game you match will be wonky.   8 people from every match legit getting screwed and most don’t even know why.

[Saiyan.1704]

Having to go against a full Plat team made up of alts while you're stuck with a mixture of Gold1's and Gold3s, all because matchmaking had an aneurysm. That is a bigger issue than anything else. Yall call it wintrading I call it bad mmr algorithms. It just shouldn't happen especially mid season.

Yeah DuoQ can be a big issue especially when you can guarantee a solid side noder and/or pog dps roamer but the majority of pvp players in this game are casuals who just want to play with their friends and will most likely never experience wintrade issues if they haven't hit Gold3.

[Bast.7253]

Duo queue aside - 

 

Can’t two people just make sure their rating is equal, queue at the same time on the same class individually and likely wind up in the same match against each other?

 

 

[Deadmoose.6594]

On 9/23/2023 at 9:49 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'd also like to point out that the people who are always in here vouching to remove duo queue, are people I never see in-game queueing at all.

What the kitten does this matter? Oh yeah I forgot you are one of those hand selected by God to be a gift to GW2 pvp.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 9/23/2023 at 9:49 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'd also like to point out that the people who are always in here vouching to remove duo queue, are people I never see in-game queueing at all.

It's probably because the people that don't like duo queue don't like queueing because they're running into duo queue.  Js. People that don't like a service tend to not use it. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

7 hours ago, Bast.7253 said:

Duo queue aside - 

 

Can’t two people just make sure their rating is equal, queue at the same time on the same class individually and likely wind up in the same match against each other?

Yeah, it used to happen occasionally in soloq. Soloq is not perfect, but at least in soloq it's down to chance and far less likely to happen than with duoq where it's guaranteed.

To compare, the top 25 winrate when ranked was soloq only past plat2 was about 60-70% of games played won. As soon as duoq was brought back unrestricted(literally the very first season after, S13) that winrate jumped to what it looks like now; nearly every single game played won, 100% winrate or hella close. And they would have you believe that's a biproduct of talent and skill, and not at all related to duoq.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

What the kitten does this matter?

Because they lack the experience to really see what's going on here in this community. Their vouching against duo queue is just a hopeful reach for improvement because their lack of experience with the system disallows them from seeing where the problems really lie.

Duo queue is not the problem. The people who match manipulate are always duo queue and that makes it look like duo queue is the problem, but the truth is that even if you removed duo queue, they will still match manipulate, the same people will be at the top of the leaderboards and the same people will be riding low tier.

Absolutely nothing will change.

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It's probably because the people that don't like duo queue don't like queueing because they're running into duo queue.  Js. People that don't like a service tend to not use it. 

It's true, but there are two important thing to note in light of this fact:

1. Most of these people have not queued ranked in years or even logged in for any substantial amount of time at all. They come into this forum and speak as if they had current relevant subjective experiences that they were going through day to day with this system, but they do not. Their ideas & concerns are 4+ years old and they have no idea what queues look & feel like today. With all due respect and no offense intended, this is true.
2. The others are clearly new players/casuals on new accounts who have not spent anywhere near enough time in-game or in-forum to be able to identify patterns & functions within the algorithm, or to be able to see the tomfoolery that goes on in-game. All they see is an upper leaderboard duo in their game and that game feels impossible to win. So of course they are going to think "Every time a duo appears, I get an impossible to win game" because those players the ones who are obsessively queueing all day long every day. What these players don't see, is the match manipulation behind it, which makes duo queue look bad. And what they aren't understanding here, is that even if you remove duo queue entirely and make everyone solo, those same players will match manipulate, and the games will still be full of alts helping each other win trade. Nothing will change.

Realistically, duo queue is simply not the problem. If you talk to anyone in NA who is not suspiciously riding top 25 every season in a duo without ever falling even once, every single non suspicious organic queuer will tell you that when they duo queue, their games seem to become more difficult, not easier.

Try it, go test it, go talk to some people. And I don't mean new players under rank 30 or casuals or the guys who haven't queued ranked in 4+ years, I mean the guys who are queueing ranked every day now. I'm telling you duo queue isn't the problem. The problem is match manipulation making duo queue look like it's a problem.

 

3 hours ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Yeah, it used to happen occasionally in soloq. Soloq is not perfect, but at least in soloq it's down to chance and far less likely to happen than with duoq where it's guaranteed.

To compare, the top 25 winrate when ranked was soloq only past plat2 was about 60-70% of games played won. As soon as duoq was brought back unrestricted(literally the very first season after, S13) that winrate jumped to what it looks like now; nearly every single game played won, 100% winrate or hella close. And they would have you believe that's a biproduct of talent and skill, and not at all related to duoq.

And see this is what I mean right here ^

I've always liked @Multicolorhipster.9751 and this is why I've always had him on my contacts list. And as such, I have been able to watch his log in activity because I am a player that is online at least 3 to 4 hours a day, usually more. He is a player that I see sign into GW2 maybe once every 6 months, he stays online for an hour and then logs off again for 6 months. He has a great deal of knowledge of how things worked half a decade ago during S1 and S2 but not a lot of current updated subjective experience to relate to now. Notice he only shows up for duo queue discussions but never balance discussions on current metas, because he doesn't actually play the game anymore.

In his current response here, to a new or casual player, it would like it's worth a thumbs up in vouching for the removal of duo queue. But what is not mentioned in his post here is the  deeper look at things. During the same timeframe that he references, before Arenanet solidly chose to enable duo queue for all ratings, was the timeframe that we seen the old ESL players disappearing and new Team USA emerging. This is the exact same timeframe when old sweaty organic try-hards left, and the new cartel emerged. This is the same timeframe when win trading/boosting/selling became the thing to do. This is an inarguable truth. What Multi has noticed in his comment here, is only what things appeared as on the surface. But a deeper look shows an undeniable correlation with when win trading began.

I'm telling you, the win traders made duo queue look bad, just the same as they do today. And I'll say it again, even if you remove duo queue, they will still win trade and use w/e new methods are available to manipulate, and absolutely nothing will change.

To put it in other words: If it weren't for synch queues and other forms of manipulation, those duos that you complain about would be having much more difficult matches against the teams of solos they may be placed against. It's very true. When you run into these guys in unranked when they aren't manipulating, those same high tiered duos in ranked actually struggle and lose a lot of matches in unranked to teams of random solos, because the system actually overcompensates for duo queues. When a duo forms, you can read this in the algorithm notes, it actually does something crazy like a +50 to average MMR in the seeding. So a duo who is around 1550 is actually being counted as the same weight as two 1600 players on the opposing team. GO READ IT it's true. The fact that the high tiered duos you complain about seemingly aren't having this wielded against them IS BECAUSE OF MATCH MANIPULATION.

The problem isn't duo queue, the problem is match manipulation, and removing duo queue WILL NOT stop match manipulation. 100% guarantee you that this old song & dance of removing duo queue is a lost cause boys. If you want to get something done, rally against the unmoderated cheating.

[magickthief.6492]

15 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Because they lack the experience to really see what's going on here in this community. Their vouching against duo queue is just a hopeful reach for improvement because their lack of experience with the system disallows them from seeing where the problems really lie.

Duo queue is not the problem. The people who match manipulate are always duo queue and that makes it look like duo queue is the problem, but the truth is that even if you removed duo queue, they will still match manipulate, the same people will be at the top of the leaderboards and the same people will be riding low tier.

Absolutely nothing will change.

It's true, but there are two important thing to note in light of this fact:

1. Most of these people have not queued ranked in years or even logged in for any substantial amount of time at all. They come into this forum and speak as if they had current relevant subjective experiences that they were going through day to day with this system, but they do not. Their ideas & concerns are 4+ years old and they have no idea what queues look & feel like today. With all due respect and no offense intended, this is true.
2. The others are clearly new players/casuals on new accounts who have not spent anywhere near enough time in-game or in-forum to be able to identify patterns & functions within the algorithm, or to be able to see the tomfoolery that goes on in-game. All they see is an upper leaderboard duo in their game and that game feels impossible to win. So of course they are going to think "Every time a duo appears, I get an impossible to win game" because those players the ones who are obsessively queueing all day long every day. What these players don't see, is the match manipulation behind it, which makes duo queue look bad. And what they aren't understanding here, is that even if you remove duo queue entirely and make everyone solo, those same players will match manipulate, and the games will still be full of alts helping each other win trade. Nothing will change.

Realistically, duo queue is simply not the problem. If you talk to anyone in NA who is not suspiciously riding top 25 every season in a duo without ever falling even once, every single non suspicious organic queuer will tell you that when they duo queue, their games seem to become more difficult, not easier.

Try it, go test it, go talk to some people. And I don't mean new players under rank 30 or casuals or the guys who haven't queued ranked in 4+ years, I mean the guys who are queueing ranked every day now. I'm telling you duo queue isn't the problem. The problem is match manipulation making duo queue look like it's a problem.

 

And see this is what I mean right here ^

I've always liked @Multicolorhipster.9751 and this is why I've always had him on my contacts list. And as such, I have been able to watch his log in activity because I am a player that is online at least 3 to 4 hours a day, usually more. He is a player that I see sign into GW2 maybe once every 6 months, he stays online for an hour and then logs off again for 6 months. He has a great deal of knowledge of how things worked half a decade ago during S1 and S2 but not a lot of current updated subjective experience to relate to now. Notice he only shows up for duo queue discussions but never balance discussions on current metas, because he doesn't actually play the game anymore.

In his current response here, to a new or casual player, it would like it's worth a thumbs up in vouching for the removal of duo queue. But what is not mentioned in his post here is the  deeper look at things. During the same timeframe that he references, before Arenanet solidly chose to enable duo queue for all ratings, was the timeframe that we seen the old ESL players disappearing and new Team USA emerging. This is the exact same timeframe when old sweaty organic try-hards left, and the new cartel emerged. This is the same timeframe when win trading/boosting/selling became the thing to do. This is an inarguable truth. What Multi has noticed in his comment here, is only what things appeared as on the surface. But a deeper look shows an undeniable correlation with when win trading began.

I'm telling you, the win traders made duo queue look bad, just the same as they do today. And I'll say it again, even if you remove duo queue, they will still win trade and use w/e new methods are available to manipulate, and absolutely nothing will change.

To put it in other words: If it weren't for synch queues and other forms of manipulation, those duos that you complain about would be having much more difficult matches against the teams of solos they may be placed against. It's very true. When you run into these guys in unranked when they aren't manipulating, those same high tiered duos in ranked actually struggle and lose a lot of matches in unranked to teams of random solos, because the system actually overcompensates for duo queues. When a duo forms, you can read this in the algorithm notes, it actually does something crazy like a +50 to average MMR in the seeding. So a duo who is around 1550 is actually being counted as the same weight as two 1600 players on the opposing team. GO READ IT it's true. The fact that the high tiered duos you complain about seemingly aren't having this wielded against them IS BECAUSE OF MATCH MANIPULATION.

The problem isn't duo queue, the problem is match manipulation, and removing duo queue WILL NOT stop match manipulation. 100% guarantee you that this old song & dance of removing duo queue is a lost cause boys. If you want to get something done, rally against the unmoderated cheating.

I don't recall the usual suspects even making the LB back when duo q was removed. Seems like the single most effective way to get rid of the unmoderated cheating, just as the evidence stands. Also, once Anet stated that well more than 90% of players just solo q. Seems like that number would have only grown all things considered.

The game mode needs solo q. Sometimes to save the body, you gotta chop some stuff out. Duo q is an unregulated malady.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

And see this is what I mean right here ^

I've always liked @Multicolorhipster.9751 and this is why I've always had him on my contacts list. And as such, I have been able to watch his log in activity because I am a player that is online at least 3 to 4 hours a day, usually more. He is a player that I see sign into GW2 maybe once every 6 months, he stays online for an hour and then logs off again for 6 months. He has a great deal of knowledge of how things worked half a decade ago during S1 and S2 but not a lot of current updated subjective experience to relate to now. Notice he only shows up for duo queue discussions but never balance discussions on current metas, because he doesn't actually play the game anymore.

I like you too 💜 and I actually agree with the majority of what you have to say and I respect you for actually saying it as well as the courtesy you show here and towards your goodfellows.

This isn't an accurate representation of history though.

I start ranked in season 2. I play on and off until season 9. I got really into during seasons 9-12 and I was ending seasons with like 300 games played. I gave duoq a chance after it came back in season 13 but it made the game unfun and then I stopped ranked in s18 and then Gw2 entirely sometime this year, quitting after 10 years and just barely 11,000 logged hours the majority of which were spent in PvP either ranked or hotjoins/unranked. Would log in most days for my daily bread at least.

Took a few extended breaks but considering there are 87,660 hours in a decade and I had 11k hours, that's 12% of the entire decade spent on gw2 and pvp. Therefore the claim that I've only been on sporadically is patently false and not at all accurate and now I feel the need to go and touch grass and repent for my sins.

I've never talked about balance because game balance doesn't make people cast away almost half of their mortal lifespan, but duoq sure did.

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

In his current response here, to a new or casual player, it would like it's worth a thumbs up in vouching for the removal of duo queue. But what is not mentioned in his post here is the  deeper look at things. During the same timeframe that he references, before Arenanet solidly chose to enable duo queue for all ratings, was the timeframe that we seen the old ESL players disappearing and new Team USA emerging.

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

This is the exact same timeframe when old sweaty organic try-hards left, and the new cartel emerged. This is the same timeframe when win trading/boosting/selling became the thing to do. This is an inarguable truth. What Multi has noticed in his comment here, is only what things appeared as on the surface. But a deeper look shows an undeniable correlation with when win trading began.

Cause and effect. Anet invested a lot into trying to make PvP an esport and it failed miserably, and rather than trying to fix it they just gave up and handed over the reigns to the cartel in the form of duoq. The cartel had been around before that mind, and they're a big part of the reason ESL didn't work was because a lot of them were just cheats that most the playerbase never had any respect for. Combined with a meta that was boring to play and 10x more boring to watch; it was doomed from the very start.

They tried, they failed, and then they gave up. That's what mixed solo/duoq is, is giving up. They got nothing to gain from pvp so they gave it over to the cartel and then partnered all of them. That's the real song and dance here is Arenanet trying to convince us that pvp is still alive & well with dedicated god-tier players taking the game by storm with almost or even exactly 100% of their games played won. Just don't tell anyone they smurfed, 2v1'd, and exploited every aspect of the game; inside and out, in order to get there.

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'm telling you, the win traders made duo queue look bad, just the same as they do today. And I'll say it again, even if you remove duo queue, they will still win trade and use w/e new methods are available to manipulate, and absolutely nothing will change.

To put it in other words: If it weren't for synch queues and other forms of manipulation, those duos that you complain about would be having much more difficult matches against the teams of solos they may be placed against. It's very true.

This is a contradiction. If match manipulation becomes more difficult with more random and uncontrollable matchmaking, then something will have changed with the addition of a soloq ranked arena. Duoq doesn't even need to be removed is the funny thing. Could just make a separate soloq arena and it would sort itself out. The cartel would keep on duoqing and soloqs would have access to at least 1 no BS gamemode. And just like that, all of this would be over. No more 2v1, substantially less match manipulation (in at least one gamemode), and no more pointless bickering about what is and isn't killing off pvp.

It is what the cartel fears most of all. PvP that is actually fun, fair, and competitive. An absolute good.

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

When you run into these guys in unranked when they aren't manipulating, those same high tiered duos in ranked actually struggle and lose a lot of matches in unranked to teams of random solos, because the system actually overcompensates for duo queues. When a duo forms, you can read this in the algorithm notes, it actually does something crazy like a +50 to average MMR in the seeding. So a duo who is around 1550 is actually being counted as the same weight as two 1600 players on the opposing team. GO READ IT it's true. The fact that the high tiered duos you complain about seemingly aren't having this wielded against them IS BECAUSE OF MATCH MANIPULATION.

Yeah, it even says
"The second phase of the algorithm is the scoring phase. During this phase each player is scored against every other player being considered for matchmaking. The metrics used during this phase include: rating, rank, games played, party size, profession, and dishonor. With each metric the system is looking for players that are as close as possible to the average of those already selected. The system also attempts to keep the number of duplicate professions to a minimum."

 

But in order for that to mean anything, MMR has to mean something as well, and with duoq it doesn't. That's why duoqs roll over ranked and then get stomped in unranked.
You and I both know that in ranked, duoq's use an average of both player's ratings to contribute to an effective MMR for their party. The 50 point difference in inflated MMR means absolutely nothing when someone in plat3 is queueing up with a smurf leagues below them because their average MMR is going to be somewhere in gold regardless of the trifling weight the matchmaker tacks on to duoqs. It isn't much at all, a small facet of a larger algorithm.

Unless of course you were duoq'd with someone that was actually around your rating and skill-level; like I'm sure you do when you do duoq, in which case that 50 extra MMR could be the difference between a good match and a blowout win or loss. But with 0 limitations, that small aspect of matchmaking means absolutely nothing to a duoq seeking to commit premeditated match manipulation.

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The problem isn't duo queue, the problem is match manipulation, and removing duo queue WILL NOT stop match manipulation. 100% guarantee you that this old song & dance of removing duo queue is a lost cause boys. If you want to get something done, rally against the unmoderated cheating.

That's a hollow guarantee considering how instrumental duoq is to match manipulation. Even you were right in saying that removing duoq would do nothing; which you aren't, what then do you expect to come of "rallying against the unmoderated cheating"? Have we not been doing that for 11 years? Have we not watched as wintraders have been banned and permanently dishonored with evidence and then just immediately let off the hook?

Utterly futile. Arenanet will never ban the cartel, and if we keep mixed solo/duoq it's never going to get any harder for the cartel either. At its core mixed solo/duo is flawed and unfair. Let it die and be forgotten, and good on every modern game that has realized how monumentally stupid and ripe for abuse 2v1 really is. With some fortune, maybe this one will join them one day, and then I have one less conversation topic for my therapist and justification to the absurd amount of time and money I wasted on this. Miserere mei, Deus 🙏

[Okhu.7948]

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It's probably because the people that don't like duo queue don't like queueing because they're running into duo queue.  Js. People that don't like a service tend to not use it. 

I see this as a win. I wouldn't want to SoloQ and have them on my team. It all works out.

[Dickinson.7368]

Bump.
Doubt we'll get an official reply but doesn't hurt trying.

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 9/25/2023 at 6:44 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Because they lack the experience to really see what's going on here in this community. Their vouching against duo queue is just a hopeful reach for improvement because their lack of experience with the system disallows them from seeing where the problems really lie.

Duo queue is not the problem. The people who match manipulate are always duo queue and that makes it look like duo queue is the problem, but the truth is that even if you removed duo queue, they will still match manipulate, the same people will be at the top of the leaderboards and the same people will be riding low tier.

Absolutely nothing will change.

It's true, but there are two important thing to note in light of this fact:

1. Most of these people have not queued ranked in years or even logged in for any substantial amount of time at all. They come into this forum and speak as if they had current relevant subjective experiences that they were going through day to day with this system, but they do not. Their ideas & concerns are 4+ years old and they have no idea what queues look & feel like today. With all due respect and no offense intended, this is true.
2. The others are clearly new players/casuals on new accounts who have not spent anywhere near enough time in-game or in-forum to be able to identify patterns & functions within the algorithm, or to be able to see the tomfoolery that goes on in-game. All they see is an upper leaderboard duo in their game and that game feels impossible to win. So of course they are going to think "Every time a duo appears, I get an impossible to win game" because those players the ones who are obsessively queueing all day long every day. What these players don't see, is the match manipulation behind it, which makes duo queue look bad. And what they aren't understanding here, is that even if you remove duo queue entirely and make everyone solo, those same players will match manipulate, and the games will still be full of alts helping each other win trade. Nothing will change.

Realistically, duo queue is simply not the problem. If you talk to anyone in NA who is not suspiciously riding top 25 every season in a duo without ever falling even once, every single non suspicious organic queuer will tell you that when they duo queue, their games seem to become more difficult, not easier.

Try it, go test it, go talk to some people. And I don't mean new players under rank 30 or casuals or the guys who haven't queued ranked in 4+ years, I mean the guys who are queueing ranked every day now. I'm telling you duo queue isn't the problem. The problem is match manipulation making duo queue look like it's a problem.

 

And see this is what I mean right here ^

I've always liked @Multicolorhipster.9751 and this is why I've always had him on my contacts list. And as such, I have been able to watch his log in activity because I am a player that is online at least 3 to 4 hours a day, usually more. He is a player that I see sign into GW2 maybe once every 6 months, he stays online for an hour and then logs off again for 6 months. He has a great deal of knowledge of how things worked half a decade ago during S1 and S2 but not a lot of current updated subjective experience to relate to now. Notice he only shows up for duo queue discussions but never balance discussions on current metas, because he doesn't actually play the game anymore.

In his current response here, to a new or casual player, it would like it's worth a thumbs up in vouching for the removal of duo queue. But what is not mentioned in his post here is the  deeper look at things. During the same timeframe that he references, before Arenanet solidly chose to enable duo queue for all ratings, was the timeframe that we seen the old ESL players disappearing and new Team USA emerging. This is the exact same timeframe when old sweaty organic try-hards left, and the new cartel emerged. This is the same timeframe when win trading/boosting/selling became the thing to do. This is an inarguable truth. What Multi has noticed in his comment here, is only what things appeared as on the surface. But a deeper look shows an undeniable correlation with when win trading began.

I'm telling you, the win traders made duo queue look bad, just the same as they do today. And I'll say it again, even if you remove duo queue, they will still win trade and use w/e new methods are available to manipulate, and absolutely nothing will change.

To put it in other words: If it weren't for synch queues and other forms of manipulation, those duos that you complain about would be having much more difficult matches against the teams of solos they may be placed against. It's very true. When you run into these guys in unranked when they aren't manipulating, those same high tiered duos in ranked actually struggle and lose a lot of matches in unranked to teams of random solos, because the system actually overcompensates for duo queues. When a duo forms, you can read this in the algorithm notes, it actually does something crazy like a +50 to average MMR in the seeding. So a duo who is around 1550 is actually being counted as the same weight as two 1600 players on the opposing team. GO READ IT it's true. The fact that the high tiered duos you complain about seemingly aren't having this wielded against them IS BECAUSE OF MATCH MANIPULATION.

The problem isn't duo queue, the problem is match manipulation, and removing duo queue WILL NOT stop match manipulation. 100% guarantee you that this old song & dance of removing duo queue is a lost cause boys. If you want to get something done, rally against the unmoderated cheating.

So basically: cheating is the problem but not the very thing that enables the cheating!

(claps claps)...noted.

You know, stepping back from game and popping back in every once in a while never fails to amuse me.

[Dickinson.7368]

i.imgur.com/ZquOdii.jpeg
LE2: Literally 3 matches later.
i.imgur.com/Gfbafbo.jpg
Waiting for a-net to find a reason to delete this post. :3

Can we at least get the kittening option to not play with vs/premades?
I'm pretty sure i'm not the only one whos sick of this.
Almost 2k ranked games, not a single one being in premade and i get that.

LE: That's not the first time today either. Ofc mods will not pass our complain at the community manager/devs at best give me a warning. kitten.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Dickinson.7368

[Rap Tiger.1257]

Duo Q I think is better than 5vs5, so I don't need to carry 4 useless ones when it appears, just one

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 9/28/2023 at 2:58 PM, JTGuevara.9018 said:

So basically: cheating is the problem but not the very thing that enables the cheating!

(claps claps)...noted.

You know, stepping back from game and popping back in every once in a while never fails to amuse me.

See I don't understand why you're getting upvotes on that. It's like people seriously think that duo queue is what enables the cheating and actually believe it will go away with solo only.

It's hilariously naive, and at this point I'd love to see duo queue removed just so everyone can see that it will not make any difference at all.

[magickthief.6492]

13 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

See I don't understand why you're getting upvotes on that. It's like people seriously think that duo queue is what enables the cheating and actually believe it will go away with solo only.

It's hilariously naive, and at this point I'd love to see duo queue removed just so everyone can see that it will not make any difference at all.

It literally made a difference when it was removed for 1600+, so really just remove it all together at this point. I saw when the outcomes were posted by someone on the forums, but I also noticed. The game was more fun. Also, I think very very few people in either region passed 1700. 

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

28 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

at this point I'd love to see duo queue removed just so everyone can see that it will not make any difference at all.

Good idea, we should try it. +1 👍

[magickthief.6492]

1 hour ago, Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

Good idea, we should try it. +1 👍

+2 🤙

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

8 hours ago, magickthief.6492 said:

It literally made a difference when it was removed for 1600+

This is again what I mean about people just not recognizing what's going on at all.

You're referencing a time more than half a decade ago, when the population was literally more than 10x larger than it is now, before the beans got spilled about win trading, when the ratio of organic queues to throw queues looked like 90% organic and 10% win trade.

What you're looking at now is very diminished population that is the size of a small high school, where queues are more like 60% organic and 40% win trade on a good day, and then 10% organic and 90% win trade if you catch a bad day when they're all logged in.

These people will still win trade in a solo queue only system and it will change nothing.

[Kuma.1503]

Just move ranked gold rewards to unranked so people can have an excuse to queue with friends and not miss out on the loot. 

Lets be real. Unranked rewards suck. 

 

Then get rid of Duo-queue. 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Kuma.1503