Sword/Warhorn OP -> Nerf Kata instead of the weapon????

[WaifuJanna.9108]

So you nerfing Kata, that will make mediocore-bad builds like Staff-Kata even worse then before...

Why not nerf the Sword/Warhorn combo...

 

My Fire F5 deals 1285 dmg total now, while my Fireball Auto-Attack deals 1638 ... Autohit more dmg then Katalyst...

Or does Arena-net only want to be the Katalyst spell for an easy "Tag-Mob-Run-Away" playstile?

[Suyheuti.1732]

Nerfing traits is bad decision. Now hammer is meme weapon

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Actually I think nerfing modifiers is the good way.

Elem and elem elite specs have too much and too high modifiers. With catalyst, even it is relatively "fluid" in rotation I spend more time to look at my buff bar than the fight.
Just look at "Transcendent Tempest", +25% strike and condi and it's not even close to compete with other e-specs modifiers, it's just ridiculous .

I just hope in balance they'll buff weapon and utility skills.

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Actually I think nerfing modifiers is the good way.

Elem and elem elite specs have too much and too high modifiers. With catalyst, even it is relatively "fluid" in rotation I spend more time to look at my buff bar than the fight.
Just look at "Transcendent Tempest", +25% strike and condi and it's not even close to compete with other e-specs modifiers, it's just ridiculous .

I just hope in balance they'll buff weapon and utility skills.

It is an ok way if they buff the weapons accordingly. Spoiler: they dont and never will.

So with nerfing modifiers they nerfed all the other options like sword/d, hammer, staff. Hammer cata is trolling at this point. Ele as a whole is kinda a meme now because ht cm is not defiant and air wh5 is not attacking structures.

So we are back to all builds close to having the same benchmark which will just result in nobody playing ele because it requires much more effort, is melee, brings no boons at all and almost no utility while cvirtu is still allowed to exist. All strikes force you out of melee range but cvirtu does not care.

This is the 2nd nerf to sw/d weaver since soto release. It was clearly overperforming with its 2% playrate.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I mean in design I think it's better to nerf modifiers for Elem.

Ability to stack and keep modifiers, which go hand in hand with high APM is the reason of the huge disparity of skill and results between players in all game modes (and the low playrate so). But also between elites specs themselves and core elem :  Anet kept trying to make every e-specs "celestial and all attunements" designs by adding condi+strikes damage  modifiers everywhere, so they all compete on the same race.

But obviously the hope is to buff weapons and core skills in return.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Aelin.9317]

Disappointing to see nerfs that do not target the overperforming parts of the kit. Instead underperforming weapons are even worse. This patch was not very large I hope they tweak the weapons and traits more in a future patch. 

 

I really like hammer on catalyst, I love the idea of having every weapon be viable and they need to work on making that a reailty. I don't want really care if sword warhorn is the best, just don't have the other weapons be that far off 🙂 and honestly for having less utility available things like sword sword or hammer should ideally have the greater dmg output.

When is dps tempest going to feel better plz?

 

[Serephen.3420]

13 hours ago, Aelin.9317 said:

Disappointing to see nerfs that do not target the overperforming parts of the kit. Instead underperforming weapons are even worse. This patch was not very large I hope they tweak the weapons and traits more in a future patch. 

 

I really like hammer on catalyst, I love the idea of having every weapon be viable and they need to work on making that a reailty. I don't want really care if sword warhorn is the best, just don't have the other weapons be that far off 🙂 and honestly for having less utility available things like sword sword or hammer should ideally have the greater dmg output.

When is dps tempest going to feel better plz?

 

You mean sword/dagger right? But yeah I agree, though sword is in a much better state than hammer at the moment. 

[soulknight.9620]

37 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

You mean sword/dagger right? But yeah I agree, though sword is in a much better state than hammer at the moment. 

Although i agree, but a fun fact. Ive got 30% more dps with a hammer on my OW cele cata build than sword/dagger. I believe it has something to do with condi application and hybrid nature of the hammer. 

[peperoncino.2516]

18 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I mean in design I think it's better to nerf modifiers for Elem.

 

18 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

But obviously the hope is to buff weapons and core skills in return.

..? which brings us back to op weapon combos (ty weapon mastery) dominating everywhere... but now from a different perspective of arsefaced traits? check weavers "modifiers" - theres barely any, unless you want some vitality while running your sword that is all you will be getting is a 7% damage buff after performing clunky dual attune for 8 seconds... yeah, suffice to say, i fail to see the point.

18 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

huge disparity of skill and results between players

there are easier to play professions, and even then, easier to play fire-camping ele builds (decent too). point is, harder to master is fine, for elementalist is advertised as one of the "harder to play" professions by the game itself, meaning - high skill ceiling. its part of the draw. whats not okay, is how in gw2s reality it translates into "more work for less results".

anyhow, there is a lot to consider, aka a lot of work, to make elementalists kit as a whole make sense once again. based on warhorn fiasco, i doubt such thing will ever take place.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

11 hours ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

..? which brings us back to op weapon combos (ty weapon mastery) dominating everywhere... but now from a different perspective of arsefaced traits? check weavers "modifiers" - theres barely any, unless you want some vitality while running your sword that is all you will be getting is a 7% damage buff after performing clunky dual attune for 8 seconds... yeah, suffice to say, i fail to see the point.

Barely any ???????????????

Weaver "dps" build is all about modifiers traits
1-2(1)-1 weaver + elemental polyphony (+ weaveself) ? Barely any but still full modifiers anyway, but barely.
And yes I get it, most of e-spec have those modifiers too, but they are tied to a particular gameplay, damage type or gimmick. Elem especs have just lazy celestial/hybrid modifiers everywhere because they had no clue what to do with them after nerfing weaver and tempest so hard ~4* years ago, and they needed them to work with all attunements.
Catalyst is the purest example . "What about catalyst traits ? _Put celestial buff and basta" And everybody were like "Hey, I can't maintain 10EE with full macro mode brain, please add more" Really ? Please add less EE, remove this lazy trait and add a better gimmick.

11 hours ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

..? which brings us back to op weapon combos (ty weapon mastery) dominating everywhere...

Which bring us back to the words "balance" and "buff weapons", after the balance on traits. What's complicated to understand ?
Or you're already on the field,  according my message to the skills of the devs and the past updates about elem ... okai, I agree...  which bring us back to the words "design" "Hope".

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Sweetbread.3678]

They really need to at least change % modifiers to stack additively rather than multiplicatively. Ele must be a balance nightmare, because right now every +% bonus is worth more than the one before, and ele is basically nothing but % modifiers.

[WaifuJanna.9108]

I am actually curious how Arena-Net balance things?
If one person manage to minmax and get 100k DPS for example, but 99% of the playerbase who play that spec only get 10k DPS. will they nerf it?

Do they balance for the pro players or for the casuals/mass?

[Bladestrom.6425]

9 hours ago, WaifuJanna.9108 said:

I am actually curious how Arena-Net balance things?
If one person manage to minmax and get 100k DPS for example, but 99% of the playerbase who play that spec only get 10k DPS. will they nerf it?

Do they balance for the pro players or for the casuals/mass?

for 99% of content its irrelevant whether 1 person does 100k, and PVP has separate balancing so they should balance PVE based on something like a 95 percentile.

[peperoncino.2516]

21 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Barely any ?

as in how much they actually provide, ofc. i mean, they are there, there are one for each tier, but the whole point is to consider how they compare to other traits in the game.   

18 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Weaver "dps" build is all about modifiers traits
1-2(1)-1 weaver

lets break it down, shall we? so, "1" - Superior Elements, major adept - a 15% crit chance increase against weakened enemies, also allows your dual attune skills to weaken hit enemies for 5 sec, but has a 4 sec cd on weakening. 15% crit increase is not a stat-modifier per se, but i still want to look at the trait in-depth.

now, its important to note that weavers damage rotation outside of weave self only allows for ~30% uptime of weakened. so, and thats kind of a theme with this espec, someone has to provide it for you, else you are uncapped for crit (which is not great). also, if you are your groups only source of weakness, or are doing some mob alone, or whatever really - then the only way to maintain weakness debuff and therefore keep yourself critcapped is some combo of water and earth attunes, which kind of defeats the point for your damage is kitten in those attunes and you are mathematically better off not doing it.

moreover, crit chance buffs are actually not at all unique, lets check out what other classes have:

• Smash Brawler, major adept berserker trait, exact same placement as Superior Elements - gain 15% crit chance while berserking and berserking lasts 5 seconds longer. sure, there is a condition, but in practice berserker should stive for 100% uptime on berserking anyway, for it is not a difficult task to ask and results in more damage anyway, and more importantly completely doable with no reliance on teammates or deviating from the damage rotation, with trait even further helping by increasing berserking duration.
• Keen Observer, minor adept core thief trait - gain 15% crit chance while you are above 75% health. same 15%, both are also sameish tier and are a mandatory pick for a pve dps build if you are picking trait tree they are in. only in thiefs case, he himself can assure 100% uptime in vast majority of fights by just not facetanking big chunks of damage, or by healing back said damage, without at all taking a hit to dps... while weaver just cannot, has to rely on temmmates xD
• Death Perception, major grandmaster core necro trait, just for a change - gain 15% crit chance, also gain 15% crit damage while in shroud. kek.

all in all, most profs have such crit trait, its nothing special and some profs have it somewhat better. why does weaver has to be one getting "balanced"? out of habit?

19 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

1-2(1)-1

it already took a lot of time so i wont bother making as complete of a breakdown. tldr its nothing special or new.

"2" Swift Revenge - 10% strike damage under swiftness, give yourself 4s of swiftness on dual attacks. basically, this games definition of nothing special: Daredevils Havoc Specialist is 15%, Rangers Farsighted is 10%-15%, Bladesworns Fierce as Fire is permanent +10% past like first three seconds of a fight, Reapers Soul eater is flat 10% that also heals you based on % of damage dealt, but only works on enemies within 300 range of you ig. all of them are traits of exactly the same tier.

"1" Weavers Prowess is very similar to druids same tier trait Natural Balance, which gives 10% condi damage (compared to 5%), 10% condi duration (compared to 20%), -10% damage taken (compared to none). same as weaver, druid has 100% uptime on this trait in a group setting.

21 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

1-2(1)-1

"1" Elements of Rage - again, a 7% bonus to damage dealt after performing a dual attune, also converts 13% of vitality to precision.. on a prof with lowest vitality in the game.. yeah, right...

sorry, ill keep it short, have you checked what other profs grandmaster traits offer? if so, exactly why should 7% damage bonus with like 8% crit chance on a grandmaster trait impress anyone? 

19 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

 elemental polyphony

technically, its a flat stat increase, so not exactly a modifier. it also is a literally worse version of a trait named Aeromancers training, which is +150 ferocity unconditionally, air skills recharge 20% faster, +150 more ferocity when attuned to air, at least as long as pve dps builds are concerned.

22 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

+ weaveself

again, not part of

22 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

modifiers traits

for its not even a trait, but an elite skill. still, glyph of elementals was a widely accepted alternative for a great amount of time, providing ease of access and play for slightly less damage to a fairly complicated espec... right up until warhorns release. make you wonder, huh? even then, conjured gs still is bis for some very fast bosses

tldr game is full of modifiers as i have shown, and some are worse than weavers.. tho most are not. why is it an issue at all? imo its a good way of balancing stuff without changing the playstyle.

[xChris.8904]

They made the right decision by nerfing a combination of things. These things being wildfire (warhorn), jade spheres (catalyst), empowering auras (trait). Catalyst has been dominating as the highest dps ele build for a really long time and although weaver came close at some point, it was still lower and if they nerfed sword/warhorn it would end up being noexistent since it uses sword. They could have heavily nerfed warhorn on it's own in which case dagger works for weaver but then power tempest would be nonexistent (and it already is). also there is not much more to nerf in warhorn, widlfire is the strongest skill by far, lightning orb is good but heavily relies on hitbox size and dust storm is there just for fireworks uptime. either way the only way to nerf catalyst down from that 47k benchmark would be to involve traits/specific catalyst stuff in the mix as well. and it is still in a very good spot, higher than most builds (sword/warhorn has a ceiling of 43k). The only problem is them nerfing catalyst to hit 1 specific build and forgetting (or not caring) that other setups exist. Notably hammer, catalyst has been using hammer for around 1 and a half year and now suddenly hammer is a meme. Not that you cant play it, but it does so much lower damage that most people won't feel like it is worth it. On top of being more difficult to perform on. 

[Kozumi.5816]

On 9/26/2023 at 4:41 PM, Nephalem.8921 said:

So we are back to all builds close to having the same benchmark which will just result in nobody playing ele because it requires much more effort, is melee, brings no boons at all and almost no utility while cvirtu is still allowed to exist. All strikes force you out of melee range but cvirtu does not care.

This is the 2nd nerf to sw/d weaver since soto release. It was clearly overperforming with its 2% playrate.

It's a joke. Meanwhile ranger and condi virt are perfectly ok?

[zeyeti.8347]

3 hours ago, xChris.8904 said:

dominating as the highest dps ele build

ofc , they are so overperforming and completely op we see at least 4 cata per squad , right ? overperforming for 0,01% of the ele playerbase ! meta definign  when you represent about 5% of the playerbase 3 e-specs combined ... , cata is played at 2% in both raids and strikes , non existend in fractals , so yes it has freaking high numbers , but need to "kitten" your keyboard like a freak , meanwhile option who have better accessibility better overall damage because of range exist.

The problem here is not the numbers , it's nerfing a class who see literally no gameplay , cata needs to take care of energy (with that weird 5 sec without energy after a sphere launch) keep stacks of +x% on all stats by comboing like crazy , tempest is the only spec who has 4 sec cast time skills , weaver needs you to press the F bar like it is the movement pad, the class has the lowest hp and the lowest armor , in a pug group it's high risk , even in pre made group it's high risk , but for a lot of us we don't see the rewarding part , so does ele need to stay like that , just an élite spec for player who master it , and an average carpet body for the rest ?

it's absurd the warrior and the ele got nerf while they are the two least played class of the game in instanced content. As i said snowcrow should advertsie false benchmark so they can easily manipulate anet "so called balance" and be master of the trend cause thats all what anet is looking at : benchmarks !

It's Qol the ele need truly , but we get nerfs instead , they nerfed weapons , they nerfed traits , so now it's even less rewarding to play it for the most of us.

[xChris.8904]

48 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

ofc , they are so overperforming and completely op we see at least 4 cata per squad , right ? overperforming for 0,01% of the ele playerbase ! meta definign  when you represent about 5% of the playerbase 3 e-specs combined ... , cata is played at 2% in both raids and strikes , non existend in fractals , so yes it has freaking high numbers , but need to "kitten" your keyboard like a freak , meanwhile option who have better accessibility better overall damage because of range exist.

The problem here is not the numbers , it's nerfing a class who see literally no gameplay , cata needs to take care of energy (with that weird 5 sec without energy after a sphere launch) keep stacks of +x% on all stats by comboing like crazy , tempest is the only spec who has 4 sec cast time skills , weaver needs you to press the F bar like it is the movement pad, the class has the lowest hp and the lowest armor , in a pug group it's high risk , even in pre made group it's high risk , but for a lot of us we don't see the rewarding part , so does ele need to stay like that , just an élite spec for player who master it , and an average carpet body for the rest ?

it's absurd the warrior and the ele got nerf while they are the two least played class of the game in instanced content. As i said snowcrow should advertsie false benchmark so they can easily manipulate anet "so called balance" and be master of the trend cause thats all what anet is looking at : benchmarks !

It's Qol the ele need truly , but we get nerfs instead , they nerfed weapons , they nerfed traits , so now it's even less rewarding to play it for the most of us.

that is a really bad argument. overperforming has to be based on it's ceiling, not what each individual player can do. balance has to be based on the best players. because if it wasn't based on that, then we wouldn't need any balance at all. if balance was based on what the average casual can do, it wouldn't matter because their dps will always be low. that is no excuse to have catalyst sitting at 47k. like Anet can't (and obviously shouldn't) make every class do 50k damage so as someone like you can have a chance at being good. it simply doesn't work that way.

catalyst is not even difficult. and i am saying this as someone who knows this class as good as it is possible and plays it every day (so i have the experience to back it up and i can give an objective answer because i know it like the palm of my hand). the sword/warhorn build has a much simpler rotation and faster learning curve. so there is no excuse to say "you need to be a keyboard freak" or whatever. that is not true anymore. you just need to be somewhat good at the game and put some effort in it. catalyst should still be higher than other builds and it is. it is sitting at 43k right now. that is fair because it is a fully melee build and lacks any kind of utility (well it still has the boon extension which is good). these are factors that should be taken into account when balancing since they are reasons why someone wouldn't pick it so they need to be offset by more damage. but anything more than that would just be bad, no build should be above 45k and the ones close to 45k (between 44-45k) should be the most difficult ones like hammer catalyst, condi holo, rifle -dagger/dagger deadeye, axe mirage etc.

the class seeing no gameplay doesn't have to do with the numbers, it has to do with the players. it had a 47k benchmark after soto and still few people played it. there is not much to say there, people have a general bias against elementalist as being "difficult" and 'squishy", both of which are untrue. energy is a simple and straightfoward mechanic with a restriction behind it which is fair to exist. most class mechanics have restrictions (tempest can't instanly overload, firebrands burns initative to enter tomes etc). managing energy is part of learning it, if you could just drop spheres freely the moment you switch attunements, it would be lame. not everything needs to be handed to you freely. comboing is extremely simple and happens as part of the rotation. there is nothing crazy and every interaction can be explained. i have made guides and uploaded them on youtube going over all that. weaver and tempest have their own level of complexity but nothing that absurd. but these specs are not the topic here. overall every rotation has it's difficulty to reach high numbers and a good player will be able to outdps the average cvirt or scourge on catalyst. 

all i have to say is, if you don't feel rewarded by playing ele then don't. nobody forces you. it works that way by design but you are seriously overstating things. you don't need to master it to be able to play it. there are some simplified builds that still output pretty good damage (LI catalyst, condi weaver with fire ele for example). or just stop caring that much about your damage, it is not like you need to be doing a lot to clear any type of content. if you actually care about your damage then go to the training area and get better. it is a simple process that everyone goes through to reach that point. then after that it needs more effort and practice in actual fights. elementalist is nowhere near a "body carpet" if you are dying you are just bad at positioning yourself. that is the plain truth

i don't think Anet cares about what snowcrows is advertising. seeing that catalyst overperformed last patch was really easy. also snowcrows had a 45k benchmark with the actual build reaching up to 47k. so 2k lower if that makes you satisfied. rewarding should be first of all because you enjoy it. and after that because of it's dps. but usually these 2 are combined. if you enjoy it you will learn how to play it and be good on it. there is nothing you can't be good on no matter how much or how little damage it does. i was playing catalyst when it had a 37k benchmark on hammer at the august 2022 rebalance when noone else wanted to touch it at that state. i kept using it because i had fun and i could pull some very respectable numbers on it (top dps in pugs which doesn't say much for me but it does to most people). and you are now complaining for a class that benches 43k. i think you are a bit out of touch here. the only thing to complain about would be hammer being below 40k. 

 

[rotten.9753]

9 hours ago, xChris.8904 said:

i don't think Anet cares about what snowcrows is advertising. seeing that catalyst overperformed last patch was really easy.

They are definitely checking out some videos put on YouTube by players, otherwise they wouldn't know what to nerf. How could they otherwise, the balance team is mostly represented by people playing either dead game mode (PvP) or WvW. Shame that they base their opinions either on speedkills from the old and deprecated content (raids), mostly from the golem-like bosses, or from the literal golem encounter. They should start balancing based on the new encounters, which include tons of melee hate and no ranged hate.

[zeyeti.8347]

13 hours ago, xChris.8904 said:

that is a really bad argument. overperforming has to be based on it's ceiling, not what each individual player can do. balance has to be based on the best players. because if it wasn't based on that, then we wouldn't need any balance at all. if balance was based on what the average casual can do, it wouldn't matter because their dps will always be low. that is no excuse to have catalyst sitting at 47k. like Anet can't (and obviously shouldn't) make every class do 50k damage so as someone like you can have a chance at being good. it simply doesn't work that way.

catalyst is not even difficult. and i am saying this as someone who knows this class as good as it is possible and plays it every day (so i have the experience to back it up and i can give an objective answer because i know it like the palm of my hand). the sword/warhorn build has a much simpler rotation and faster learning curve. so there is no excuse to say "you need to be a keyboard freak" or whatever. that is not true anymore. you just need to be somewhat good at the game and put some effort in it. catalyst should still be higher than other builds and it is. it is sitting at 43k right now. that is fair because it is a fully melee build and lacks any kind of utility (well it still has the boon extension which is good). these are factors that should be taken into account when balancing since they are reasons why someone wouldn't pick it so they need to be offset by more damage. but anything more than that would just be bad, no build should be above 45k and the ones close to 45k (between 44-45k) should be the most difficult ones like hammer catalyst, condi holo, rifle -dagger/dagger deadeye, axe mirage etc.

the class seeing no gameplay doesn't have to do with the numbers, it has to do with the players. it had a 47k benchmark after soto and still few people played it. there is not much to say there, people have a general bias against elementalist as being "difficult" and 'squishy", both of which are untrue. energy is a simple and straightfoward mechanic with a restriction behind it which is fair to exist. most class mechanics have restrictions (tempest can't instanly overload, firebrands burns initative to enter tomes etc). managing energy is part of learning it, if you could just drop spheres freely the moment you switch attunements, it would be lame. not everything needs to be handed to you freely. comboing is extremely simple and happens as part of the rotation. there is nothing crazy and every interaction can be explained. i have made guides and uploaded them on youtube going over all that. weaver and tempest have their own level of complexity but nothing that absurd. but these specs are not the topic here. overall every rotation has it's difficulty to reach high numbers and a good player will be able to outdps the average cvirt or scourge on catalyst. 

all i have to say is, if you don't feel rewarded by playing ele then don't. nobody forces you. it works that way by design but you are seriously overstating things. you don't need to master it to be able to play it. there are some simplified builds that still output pretty good damage (LI catalyst, condi weaver with fire ele for example). or just stop caring that much about your damage, it is not like you need to be doing a lot to clear any type of content. if you actually care about your damage then go to the training area and get better. it is a simple process that everyone goes through to reach that point. then after that it needs more effort and practice in actual fights. elementalist is nowhere near a "body carpet" if you are dying you are just bad at positioning yourself. that is the plain truth

i don't think Anet cares about what snowcrows is advertising. seeing that catalyst overperformed last patch was really easy. also snowcrows had a 45k benchmark with the actual build reaching up to 47k. so 2k lower if that makes you satisfied. rewarding should be first of all because you enjoy it. and after that because of it's dps. but usually these 2 are combined. if you enjoy it you will learn how to play it and be good on it. there is nothing you can't be good on no matter how much or how little damage it does. i was playing catalyst when it had a 37k benchmark on hammer at the august 2022 rebalance when noone else wanted to touch it at that state. i kept using it because i had fun and i could pull some very respectable numbers on it (top dps in pugs which doesn't say much for me but it does to most people). and you are now complaining for a class that benches 43k. i think you are a bit out of touch here. the only thing to complain about would be hammer being below 40k. 

 

Your points , but isn't it sad seing almost none ele players at all in pve ? basing your balance on the best players isn't either a bad or a good thing , this kind of attitude really matters in pvp or wvw , were you face other players . Also you sound like being juicy about yourself being the 0,01% mastering this clusterf**k of a class , maybe it's me , i kind have of a sick mind sometimes triggering when i read the forum.

Also seing anet balance patch like banners rework , +5% crit put in the wrong traitline , +5% crit. only when in air , show off the balance team has a very narrow view of the game , almost no knowledge and can't face backlash (no patch preview show off anet has a fragile heart) , based on preferences and just look into what players a niche  playrate can achieve , if 0,01% of players (who you are part of maybe) are overperforming with a class and you say yourself catalyst is easy , so why isn't it played more ?

I could understand they nerf warhorn , but why has cata veen gutted from 5ù less damage , why has weaver -5% condi dalmage and -3% damage lost , thsoe aren't warhorn related ...

I have about 5000 hours on my ele , and now i haven't even touch it for a whole 6 months , just baffles me they nerf something who isn't played while anet stated they gonna more look into the % of playrate instead of the niche performance some classes have , personnaly it doesnt shock me to see an ele do 50k , for the effort ppl put into this class it should be worth it , i am not for a super easy rollface class like pew pew mech was , but being played less than 2% versus all other classes should be triggering a problem in anet's mind , that mean the class isn't appealing at all to most players , or maybe other classes are very appealing , or the most bets argument i think is : they don't know how the hell to balabnce this class. And plz basing your balance on a video were ppl basically bash a pinata raid boss (aka gorseval) ... why ...

also i don't understand why classes have so much gaping hole between their Hps , could understand at release of the game , ele , guardian were the only specs with strong passiv heals , but now seriously ? There is no reason for ele to stay at 11600 hp in pve.

You like it that way , good for you , but understand a lot of us wanted a "mage" class launching fireballs and meteor shower ... you get my point i guess , now we have a brawler glass canon (that doesnt even make sense) mostly melee , while some classes have much higher survivability , safeness , etc ... like, virtuoso blinking and attacking at 1200 range .

Arguing here has no point nor valor cause once again anet showed they only look at benchmarks of elite players , so ele will stay like that for the rest of the game spawn live , an elite class only played by a very niche playgroup. And i don't care what the forums think , we ppl reading and writing in the forum represent also 0,01% of the playrate of the game , i am pretty sure you interrogate every newbie off the game who has tried out ele in some instanced content will tell you the same : "it's garbage , i do more damage with my pew pew afk mech" and thats a quote from some players i know who had faced this situation. At least i am very comfortable with any other class because i "tried" to appreciate the ele for almost 5000 hours ... what a chore it was.

Edited October 1, 2023 by zeyeti.8347

[xChris.8904]

3 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

They are definitely checking out some videos put on YouTube by players, otherwise they wouldn't know what to nerf. How could they otherwise, the balance team is mostly represented by people playing either dead game mode (PvP) or WvW. Shame that they base their opinions either on speedkills from the old and deprecated content (raids), mostly from the golem-like bosses, or from the literal golem encounter. They should start balancing based on the new encounters, which include tons of melee hate and no ranged hate.

videos put on youtube are not just snowcrows players. also the new encounters are balanced between melee and ranged. actually the newest encounters, SotO strikes are just melee dps golems (with only dagda not allowing you to be melee for a few seconds). eod strikes are split, AH and HT are fully melee for a pure dps, ankka and ko favor range more depending on the mechanics you might get. i agree that balance should take dps uptime into account, a fully melee build should be higher than ranged ones. but that is true right now. the highest fully ranged build is probably condi virtuoso at 41k (maybe condi weaver as well at 41k but that requires closer range for primordial stance) and catalyst stands at 43k. i would argue if something needs to change here it is a nerf to virtuoso. in the end i am not sure what you want their balance to be based on.

[zeyeti.8347]

The numbers you put have no value at all , how ma,ny players are able to achieve that ? on a condi virtuoso , yeah you bet , on a weaver ... bet not.

Balance should be well thinked about the dps and the effort put in the rotation , you said yourself condi virtuoso is about 41k and weaver too , is it normal for a class who has 4000 less hp , less range , less survivability , to bench less than the other easy one ?

[Scar.1793]

3 hours ago, rotten.9753 said:

They are definitely checking out some videos put on YouTube by players, otherwise they wouldn't know what to nerf. How could they otherwise, the balance team is mostly represented by people playing either dead game mode (PvP) or WvW. Shame that they base their opinions either on speedkills from the old and deprecated content (raids), mostly from the golem-like bosses, or from the literal golem encounter. They should start balancing based on the new encounters, which include tons of melee hate and no ranged hate.

I’m pretty sure that’s it, even way back when they overnerfed Revenant sword skills because of PvP, while it wasn’t much of a threat, especially compared to Mesmers/Thieves dominating with ease.

The only complaints I saw back then were a few forum posts from people who just had no idea how to deal with the class and never checked/played it to have some basic understanding.

It’s always been mindless nerf bats here and there because they saw something they consider “bad”, while you still have abominations on the side that are left untouched for years.

How can you keep players with this behavior ? If they had to come out to pretend they’ll change their philosophy you know and they know it’s terrible. And it is, literally the worst one I’ve ever seen in gaming in my eyes. The decisions often have nor heads or tails.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Scar.1793

[xChris.8904]

5 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

Your points , but isn't it sad seing almost none ele players at all in pve ? basing your balance on the best players isn't either a bad or a good thing , this kind of attitude really matters in pvp or wvw , were you face other players .

Also seing anet balance patch like banners rework , +5% crit put in the wrong traitline , +5% crit. only when in air , show off the balance team has a very narrow view of the game , based on preferences and just look into what players can achieve , if 0,01% of players (who you are part of maybe) are overperforming with a class and you say yourself catalyst is easy , so why isn't it played more ?

I have about 5000 hours on my ele , and now i haven't even touch it for a whole 6 months , just baffles me they nerf something who isn't played while anet stated they gonna more look into the % of playrate instead of the niche performance some classes have , personnaly it doesnt shock me to see an ele do 50k , for the effort ppl put into this class it should be worth it , i am not for a super easy rollface class like pew pew mech was , but being played less than 2% versus all other classes should be triggering a problem in anet's mind , that mean the class isn't appealing at all to most players , or maybe other classes are very appealing.

also i don't understand why classes have so much gaping hole between their Hps , could understand at release of the game , ele , guardian were the only specs with strong passiv heals , but now seriously ? There is no reason for ele to stay at 11600 hp in pve.

You like it that way , good for you , but understand a lot of us wanted a "mage" class launching fireballs and meteor shower ... you get my point i guess , now we have a brawler glass canon (that doesnt even make sense) mostly melee , while some classes have much higher survivability , safeness , etc ... like, virtuoso blinking and attacking at 1200 range .

Arguing here has no point nor valor cause once again anet showed they only look at benchmarks of elite players , so ele will stay like that for the rest of the game spawn live , an elite class only played by a very niche playgroup. And i don't care what the forums think , we ppl reading and writing in the forum represent also 0,01% of the playrate of the game , i am pretty sure you interrogate every newbie off the game who has tried out ele in some instanced content will tell you the same : "it's garbage , i do more damage with my pew pew afk mech" and thats a quote from some players i know who had faced this situation. At least i am very comfortable with any other class because i "tried" to appreciate the ele for almost 5000 hours ... what a chore it was.

almost none ele players at all in pve isn't true. many people play elementalist and there is no reason not to play it. there are multiple efficient builds and not everyone cares about mix maxing and being able to get benchmark dps. heal tempest, condi alac tempest, condi weaver, power weaver, power catalyst, power quickness catalyst. there is no way you won't be able to find something to use and making it work is up to you and your personal skill level. 

are you sure you know what you are talking about? because the +5% crit only when in air was changed a long time ago. yes i agree that the balance team doesn't seem to have on hands experience regarding what is going on in each game mode which puts them at a disadvantage when it comes to making the correct balance choices, but the latest patch was quite on point (most builds ending up between 40-43k). catalyst has definitely been played more than you think. check this (and it obviously represents only a part of the raid community, i am pretty sure there were even more not shown there) https://gw2wingman.nevermindcreations.de/patch (go to soto release august 2023)

i might be in the 0,01% that overperforms on elementalist, but you don't need to overperform to use it. as i said previously, many people don't reach high numbers on any class, it is just that elementalist requires a bit more effort. so i guess that is why it is picked less. but the sword/warhorn build is much simpler than hammer. so i am pretty sure it is gonna be more popular eventually. if you have 5k hours on ele and you can't play it in raids then you are doing something wrong. no balance patch has ever stopped me from playing my favorite class. the nerf was 100% justified, there is no question in a 47k build ever being balanced. we needed a general nerf because powercreep has gone way overboard. if you think any build should be doing 50k then you don't know what you are talking about. no effort should be rewarded with that kind of number and like seriously, sword/warhorn doesn't require much effort. have you actually played that build? you switch between 3 attunements, fire-air-earth, use damaging skills off cd and finish auto attack chains. like it really isn't that difficult. any competent player can get 85% of the bench with 1 hour in the training area.

11600 hp? catalyst has 17k hp. t10 jade bot core, the reinforcement buff and 10 EE stacks which you should be able to maintain effortlessly in actual fights, put you up there. also you get extra toughness. if you have survivalbility issues you are doing something wrong. your positioning is bad, you don't know how to anticipate attacks etc. there is no endgame content where you should have trouble staying alive with a healer in your group. and if something kills you, it is gonna kill everyone, not just you. if you want to roleplay as a mage then slot a staff. i am not sure what you are complaining about. you don't seem like someone who cares about their performance so just play however you want. nothing and noone stops you. you are the one putting restrictions to yourself. if you want to be doing high damage then you will have to go with specific setups. i am all for every weapon being viable but knowing Anet that won't happen. well the only weapons not viable as dps right now are staff and hammer. Also the whole "range throwing fireballs and stuff" sounds like a joke to me because i am not sure if you have realized it but you are always gonna be melee. even if your build has 1200 range, 90% of the time you are gonna be stacked on the boss with the rest of the group.

i am arguing because your whole perception is skewed. you are a casual i get that, but there is nothing "elitist" in people making benchmarks. that word is wrong to begin with. you have 2 options: 1) either get better at the game by putting effort in it and practicing, something that everyone is capable off 2) or stop whining about elementalist's state and play it without caring about your dps. i wouldn't recommend elementalist as a first choice for a beginner in endgame content but you can certainly go with it after you are comfortable with the content. it is a simple skill issue if you get outdpsed by a power mechanist, a build that is completely nonexistent atm. at some point you will realize that outdpsing other people is so easy once you actually try, as opposed to them putting the bare minimum effort because they only want to clear. 

 

[xChris.8904]

22 minutes ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

The numbers you put have no value at all , how ma,ny players are able to achieve that ? on a condi virtuoso , yeah you bet , on a weaver ... bet not.

Balance should be well thinked about the dps and the effort put in the rotation , you said yourself condi virtuoso is about 41k and weaver too , is it normal for a class who has 4000 less hp , less range , less survivability , to bench less than the other easy one ?

condi virtuoso should be nerfed i agree. should be around 39k. but weaver/cata shouldn't be buffed. because balance is about dps everywhere across the board and the ceiling should be 45k. i think you have a hard time understanding that because you lack endgame content experience but that is how it should be. they will never be able to balance the game that way because the gap in skill level between players is just too big. some people will always be doing low dps no matter what the benchmark is, that can't be fixed by balancing