why does it take 3-4 seconds for heat to start going down when leaving holo form?

[Eddie.9143]

overheating is the most punishing aspect of any class.

heat should start dropping the second you leave forge. 

you get wrecked by damage, cant use ur toolbelt for 15 seconds, and u cant use forge.

AND you can't heal if you're using med kit, because your heal is on tool kit (if anything when taking med kit, [Bandage Self] shouldn't go on cd)

Necro gets a second HP bar and never overheats

Not only that, vent exhaust does NOT lower heat enough, considering many times you're using your dodge to lower heat rather than actually dodge an ability, which leaves you to use shield blocks, or tool kit blocks, in an environment where so many abilities, ahem d-trigger, is unblockable. 

no other class has a mechanic that's even remotely as punishing. 

Edited September 29, 2023 by Eddie.9143

[SleepyBat.9034]

10 minutes ago, Eddie.9143 said:

no other class has a mechanic that's even remotely as punishing. 

Mesmer might, seems like whenever I try to play it my clones get mowed down so fast I cannot use my shatters.

[Eddie.9143]

4 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

Mesmer might, seems like whenever I try to play it my clones get mowed down so fast I cannot use my shatters.

You can give them distortion now!

[Marckan.9526]

Keep track of your heat, simple as that I'm afraid.

Yes its punishing not to, but you're also meant to, and if you cant do that then either play the GM that plays off of overheating or learn how to manage your heat.

No necros dont have overheat, but holos heat also add damage to their skills OUTSIDE of forge, shroud does not.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Marckan.9526 said:

holos heat also add damage to their skills OUTSIDE of forge

this. it also procs  Enhanced Capacity Unit Might. 

If you need fine control over it, take TRV.  Imagine you're trying to press Prime light beam and your heat dips below the tier you want while you're charging it.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Marckan.9526]

29 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

this. it also procs  Enhanced Capacity Unit Might. 

On top of that, being high on heat also empower your abilities in forge.

It makes more sense to be punished if you misbehave, if you also get rewarded for behaving. Necro does not have a reward so why should it get the punishment.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Marckan.9526

[Stand The Wall.6987]

yeah holo has way too much punishment for its mechanic. it needs some tuning

Edited September 30, 2023 by Stand The Wall.6987

[pbalint.1607]

6 hours ago, Marckan.9526 said:

Keep track of your heat, simple as that I'm afraid.

Yes its punishing not to, but you're also meant to, and if you cant do that then either play the GM that plays off of overheating or learn how to manage your heat.

No necros dont have overheat, but holos heat also add damage to their skills OUTSIDE of forge, shroud does not.

Oh wow, we get *at most* 15% extra damage: (apparently, 22.5% with ECSU)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Laser's_Edge

Untamed gets *constant* 25% (and can also change it to 25% damage reduction (and there's no clause that the damage reduction only works for strike damage), so they get a better version of  this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_Density_Amplifier)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vow_of_the_Untamed

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ferocious_Symbiosis

Where's the downside for untamed?

Edited September 30, 2023 by pbalint.1607

[Marckan.9526]

1 hour ago, pbalint.1607 said:

Oh wow, we get *at most* 15% extra damage: (apparently, 22.5% with ECSU)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Laser's_Edge

Untamed gets *constant* 25% (and can also change it to 25% damage reduction (and there's no clause that the damage reduction only works for strike damage), so they get a better version of  this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_Density_Amplifier)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vow_of_the_Untamed

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ferocious_Symbiosis

Where's the downside for untamed?

On top of those 22.5% sword also gains increased damage and boon duration depending on heat level.

Above 50% or 100% heat:

* Auto attacks gain 10% or 20% inc. damage

* Sword #2: gain 53% or 107% inc. damage

* Sword 3: gain 225% or 625% quickness duration

 

Then there are the utility skills that also gain additional bonuses for being above a certain  heat thresholds, but you can read the wiki about those in your own time.

Untamed (IMO) is the worst thought out espec ever released, it failed to deliver on every promise and has no identity - contrary to Holosmith that is perhaps the most well put together spec in terms of: traits that change fundamentally how you play with the class mechanic and a clear cut philosophy for what its suppose to be. You create heat in forge, use that heat to boost your other skills while cooling down, and repeat. Or fail to do so and get punished.

Punishment is fine if the rewards together with the ease of obtaining those rewards are worth the punishment. And considering how easy it is to manage your heat in the 100-150% range, or at the very least 50-150% range without overheating then I say it's justified.

[Zyreva.1078]

6 hours ago, pbalint.1607 said:

Oh wow, we get *at most* 15% extra damage: (apparently, 22.5% with ECSU)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Laser's_Edge

Untamed gets *constant* 25% (and can also change it to 25% damage reduction (and there's no clause that the damage reduction only works for strike damage), so they get a better version of  this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_Density_Amplifier)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vow_of_the_Untamed

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ferocious_Symbiosis

Where's the downside for untamed?

Vow of the Untamed is a 10% modifier in PvP (strike dmg only).

And the downside for Untamed is that it is reliant on pets. That can die. Meaning you can lose access to your class mechanic for up to 60 s and don't even have tools to prevent that from happening. Heat control on holo is entirely in your hands. Pet survivability on ranger is not, meaning you can get punished for something that is not in your control. So how is holo's class mechanic too punishing?

Edited September 30, 2023 by Zyreva.1078

[Kuma.1503]

Half the fun of Holo is playing as close to 100-150 heat as possible without overheating. If you do it right, you get so much more value out of the spec than someone who plays it safe. 

 

[CallousEye.5018]

I got hit with a 12.5K Photonic Blasting Module the other day, fun times.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 9/30/2023 at 12:43 AM, pbalint.1607 said:

Untamed gets *constant* 25%

🤣

[pbalint.1607]

34 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

🤣

😂

[kiwituatara.6053]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:55 PM, Zyreva.1078 said:

Vow of the Untamed is a 10% modifier in PvP (strike dmg only).

And the downside for Untamed is that it is reliant on pets. That can die. Meaning you can lose access to your class mechanic for up to 60 s and don't even have tools to prevent that from happening. Heat control on holo is entirely in your hands. Pet survivability on ranger is not, meaning you can get punished for something that is not in your control. So how is holo's class mechanic too punishing?

Yea man, any ranger that isn't soulbeast suffers from this. Pets cannot dodge and can barely cleanse condis. The 60s pet death penalty is brutal cuz its got a cascading effect on our traits and skills. Any pet swap traits, pet skills, pet-ranger interaction skills gets shut down.

Here just some of the skills/traits that become useless (unless you're a soulbeast)

• clarion bond
• shared anguish
• empathic bond
• rejuvenation
• fortifying bond
• spirited arrival
• protective ward
• invigorating bond
• almost the entire Beast Mastery traitline
• guard!
• sic em
• signet of renewal

I'm not saying ranger has the most punishing class mechanic, but I doubt holo is either.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

35 minutes ago, kiwituatara.6053 said:

Yea man, any ranger that isn't soulbeast suffers from this. Pets cannot dodge and can barely cleanse condis. The 60s pet death penalty is brutal cuz its got a cascading effect on our traits and skills. Any pet swap traits, pet skills, pet-ranger interaction skills gets shut down.

Here just some of the skills/traits that become useless (unless you're a soulbeast)

• clarion bond
• shared anguish
• empathic bond
• rejuvenation
• fortifying bond
• spirited arrival
• protective ward
• invigorating bond
• almost the entire Beast Mastery traitline
• guard!
• sic em
• signet of renewal

I'm not saying ranger has the most punishing class mechanic, but I doubt holo is either.

Agree; Druid may have the most punishing mechanic, considering you have an energy source to manage + the pet with all its downsides.  Now that staff is open to other classes it makes it hard to want to play Druid for anything unless pure heal bot...and even then...

[pbalint.1607]

You guys talk about pets dying in pvp as if it were a common thing.

Yes I've yet to see a pet die in a 1v1 situation, where any ranger or mechanist goes toe-to-toe.

And in team fights, rangers have the luxury of running longbow and staying afar, only going in for kills.

(Mechanists are scuffed, when at range, because of no weapon swap they will be always ranged and at a disadvantage)

[kiwituatara.6053]

12 minutes ago, pbalint.1607 said:

You guys talk about pets dying in pvp as if it were a common thing.

Yes I've yet to see a pet die in a 1v1 situation, where any ranger or mechanist goes toe-to-toe.

And in team fights, rangers have the luxury of running longbow and staying afar, only going in for kills.

(Mechanists are scuffed, when at range, because of no weapon swap they will be always ranged and at a disadvantage)

Pet death is very common, maybe you're just not noticing it. When pets die they don't return to their pokeballs, they hover around and do nothing.

 

We're talking about class mechanic here. If you want to talk about the entire class as a whole, then that's an entirely different argument. I'm just trying to point out there are other class mechanics that are very punishing as well.

[Kuma.1503]

33 minutes ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Agree; Druid may have the most punishing mechanic, considering you have an energy source to manage + the pet with all its downsides.  Now that staff is open to other classes it makes it hard to want to play Druid for anything unless pure heal bot...and even then...

If we're talking pet death, Mechanist is definitely punished harder since more power budget is loaded into their pet and they need to save their elite skill to revive it. 

(It's also bugged and if you use it as the pet is in the process of despawning it will fizzle and go on full CD)

[Gotejjeken.1267]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

If we're talking pet death, Mechanist is definitely punished harder since more power budget is loaded into their pet and they need to save their elite skill to revive it. 

(It's also bugged and if you use it as the pet is in the process of despawning it will fizzle and go on full CD)

Except the mech is about 100x harder to kill by default than literally every ranger pet, even if you trait BM.

We can agree to delete mech from the game though if it means getting responsiveness back on ranger pets; as mech literally is a LI spec that needed auto-attack to function and broke ranger in the process.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Gotejjeken.1267

[bethekey.8314]

Judging by even a mention of Blasting Module and all the positive reactions on some of the poorer takes, some clarity:

Laser's Edge damage boost only applies while in Photon Forge. Only 1 weapon has heat bonuses. ECSU is only 1 of 3 Grandmasters.

On 9/29/2023 at 11:28 PM, Marckan.9526 said:

And considering how easy it is to manage your heat in the 100-150% range

Let's see, it takes ~4 seconds for heat to start decreasing, and when you enter it takes another ~5 seconds for you to get out of Photon Forge. So generally in a fight without resetting, you're not losing much heat between Forge uses and you're automatically gaining ~10% heat passively when you use it (barring Elixir S, X, or some other transform to force cancel it).

If you're at high heat (to get the bonuses), you can't use Holographic Shockwave or you'll overheat.

Chill destroys holosmith flow, 66% increased cooldown on its ability to leave Forge. More likely to overheat. Holosmith cleanse is usually attached to them leaving Forge.

Since you can't use Holographic Shockwave, you have 0 access to weapon cc/blocks/evades etc. that can protect you. All you have are your utilities and kits that are also put on cooldown when entering Forge.

So no, unless you're ontop of a scared opponent that lets you just auto attack, heat isn't so easy to manage in the 100%+ range. Holosmith was completely stripped of any stability and in a meta with Untamed, Reaper, Bladesworn, Berserker, burst Chronos etc. etc. it hardly wins any exchanges in melee.

2 hours ago, pbalint.1607 said:

You guys talk about pets dying in pvp as if it were a common thing.

Yes. The Rangers in here complaining aren't even the most punished pet class. Mechanist (Engi) wins that, again.

Edited October 4, 2023 by bethekey.8314

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Except the mech is about 100x harder to kill by default than literally every ranger pet, even if you trait BM.

We can agree to delete mech from the game though if it means getting responsiveness back on ranger pets; as mech literally is a LI spec that needed auto-attack to function and broke ranger in the process.

I've been messing around with Ranger and I have an easier time keeping my ranger pets alive than the Jade Mech. 

if my pet is ever in danger, I can just swap pets. If my smokescale is in danger, I can order it to use Smokescreen which gives it invulnerability. It also starts combat with an untargetable dash and a knockdown. If my pet throws itself into a damaging AoE and gets condi bombed (Plaguelands or Zerker fire fields for example) I can just pet swap and that functions as an instant cleanse for all condis on the pet. 

So long as I have an eye on my pet's health I can just keep cycling between them and the damage my pets take doesn't stick. 

 

With the Jade mech, any damage it takes more or less sticks to it. Unless you're blowing your heal skill on CD to attempt to keep it alive. And AoE condi fields eat it alive. Especially if you're using an aggressive setup without Crisis Zone. The only way to cleanse the Mech is to use Shift signet to cleanse 2 condis, and that's your only mobility and stunbreak. 

[pbalint.1607]

Essentially, the way I see Holo as a class mechanic and Engineer in general is as follows:

Engineer is the weakest class, with absolutely trash weapons (that hit like a wet noodle) and even worse kits (what are these skill even??? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Smoke_Vent
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Box_of_Nails).

As an alternative to fixing this and not promoting paid-for ESpecs, Holo and Mechanist find other ways to make it viable:

-For mech, they have added a new channel where damage is coming from, the mech, complementing the deficiencies of the Engie class.

-For Holo, ANet added a quasi-weapon swap (by sacrificing a toolkit slot), which acts as an "I'm powerful now"-button (holo forge) and an ok weapon.
The problem is that the "I'm powerful now"-button got nerfed over and over over the years, and is not up to standards anymore:

When having less than 50 heat, you're straight-up below average. So if you're smart, you're only using the upper half or 2/3 (with ECSU) of your heat bar.
After entering Holo forge, you're supposed to weave in auto attacks, since you run out of skill cds very quickly, and can't swap for some time. 
So you're on a timer to deliver your promised damage. (Because even if you do nothing, waiting for the nth block/invuln to expire on your opponent, or chasing that elusive opponent with ports or gap openers, or waiting out the 2nd cc thrown at you, you're gaining heat)
Crystal Configuration: Eclipse used to enable the delivery of auto attacks (which usually take more time than casting power skills, because you have a chain, and AAs have in general less per-hit damage) by granting stability, but not anymore: lacking stability, you're a sitting duck to any cc (you usually run 1 stun break, have no evade frames, no % damage mitigation (I doubt anyone is running Light Density Amplifier).

So you have difficulties delivering damage against a competent opponent.

How about survivability?

By the time you've recovered any meaningful amount of health from heat therapy, the fight is pretty much over, no evade frames, no % damage mitigation (or outright ignoring damage), so you have to rely on blocks, which is pretty much photon wall in forge, only covering your front...

So to recap:

On the surface holo does good damage in a vacuum.

But in practice, you're locked in to pretty much 1 build in pvp, because even your good traits are 1 dimensional and have been nerfed, so you need to fill out the gaps with skills, to be up to standard with other classes, and can have your window of opportunity.

This is why any non-damage buff to holo would be a needed addition, because it's not damage it needs but utility, flexibility and survivability... (If pulling the class out of the selfish, one dimensional glass-cannon pigeonhole is of any consideration)

(Of course damage is always fine, but that's not what holo in pvp needs  IMHO)

Edited October 4, 2023 by pbalint.1607

[Gotejjeken.1267]

10 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I've been messing around with Ranger and I have an easier time keeping my ranger pets alive than the Jade Mech. 

if my pet is ever in danger, I can just swap pets.

This is exactly the issue--forced pet swaps are awful and the higher you get in ranked play the more you will understand why.  Players that aren't braindead will force you to pet swap like this and you lose a lot by doing that due to all the traits and interactions that are tied to it.

There's a reason that soulbeast is run for most high end play, because you can get around the entire thing by merging.  I'll agree that is easier to manage than mech for obivous reasons, but the other three specs not so much--because the pet doesn't inherit stats the way jade mech does.  

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Quote

why does it take 3-4 seconds for heat to start going down

F

Edited October 4, 2023 by Paradoxoglanis.1904