orc

[mandala.8507]

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I note that you've essentially conceded the argument regarding history and culture by omission

Nope, I've just lost my patience with trying to inform people of things who aren't interested in having their opinions changed and who are using very charged rhetoric. All I can really say after reading your long spiels is again:

"This community honestly just has a really bad habit of putting the game's races into little boxes and being upset when their stereotypical archetype for each race isn't followed closely enough."

9 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Which is evidenced by the big discussion regarding Braham's upbringing - we have basically no idea how typical this is.

Like, you're literally saying, "I don't know what to assume about the Norn as a whole, and that's bad." You don't have to be able to assume anything about them. That shouldn't be a vector through which the implications of a character's race are interpreted by you.

Braham's father made it seem like Braham's existence would just get in the way of his mother's life, and that stuck with him. Which is why Eir calls Borje a fool in season 2. Even if being left on your own was typical, making it seem like your child's existence is a burden should be universally understood as a huge mistake and a valid reason for that child to be angry.

"But he's Norn, and Norn shouldn't..." 🛑 nope, not how race works.

And the only reason y'all are having this conversation is because Norn do have parental dynamics. Where's the prominent Asura character who's had us learn more about their relationship with their parents, or even who their parents are? We know Taimi's died. But other than that? Nothing.

Edited October 12, 2023 by mandala.8507
typo

[Senti.2890]

2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said:

Nope, I've just lost my patience with trying to inform people of things who aren't interested in having their opinions changed and who are using very charged rhetoric.

reading these posts

the irony is palpable

[MalekithDG.6124]

At this point in the story it is very hard to introduce new races that arent: Birds, quaggans, kryptis (thats shooting a bit high), frog and skritt. Sylvari got an easy pass because they were created by mordremoth, normally they shouldnt exist as well.

To get an Orc class someone has to have mixed wrong concoctions at some highly classified inquest facility followed by huge incident. Elder Dragons are gone it is pretty hard for known people to create sentient life out of nothing now, as far as I know anyway.

Edited October 12, 2023 by MalekithDG.6124

[DarcShriek.5829]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:21 AM, Tanuki.4603 said:

I really love Guild wars 2. but i think it would gain a lot with introduction of Orc. I think GW2 misses orc, really big beffy race like orc will be perfect for the lore. the game is a little soft somtimes i know we have Norn but they are very like human. I thnk orc will add alot to the game.

I think it would lose a lot if it added orcs.  Besides, we already have asura, wouldn't orcs just be taller versions of them?

[Kalavier.1097]

On 10/11/2023 at 2:35 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I am not.

I am saying the time between Braham leaving and us meeting up with him again is irrelevant because the time was the same for both Braham going on his own and the Commander helping the hylek and getting their scouts to help out.

So if the Commander just said "sure, let's ignore the hylek and search the Maguuma ourselves", it would have taken the same amount of time, except for the 5-ish minutes taken to talk to Ibli and Tizlak before sending Braham and Rytlock off.

To make it clearer:

• Dragon's Watch searching on their own
• Helping the hylek then working with them to search

Both routes take the same time. There was no delay. We did not "catch up" to Braham. Braham did not "wait for the Commander".

The only delay was talking to Ibli and Tizlak.

You are absolutely and totally fixated on only one view of the events and completely are ignoring every single point I make with "But factually."

Factually, yes. Both groups made the same time. 

PERSPECTIVE OF BRAHAM, looking back, as explicitly shown in season 3: "I went straight for Eir but Commander delayed. Maybe if they hadn't gone off to talk to the frogs we would've been able to save Eir."

Again, you are working purely under the assumption that Braham cannot look back at these events and come to the wrong answer, and that he would understand that they couldn't save Eir anyway.

On 10/11/2023 at 2:35 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So did Braham have time to think things through or did he not and kept grieving without thought and relying solely on feelings and grief?

Because you say both are happening, but they're contradicting as per your own example of when you dealt with a robbery. Time dilutes adrenaline and emotions, yet Braham gets even worse with time and acts even more illogical?

And this is acting like a norn, how?

As said, we're just going to agree to disagree, because everything you've said is self-contradictory or just wrong. Braham acts illogically but has had time to think; Commander delayed but didn't actually delay; Braham "acts like a norn", yet nothing he does is something norn ever do with their cultural raising.

You are appearing to be completely unable to understand how Braham, after the adrenaline and focus of killing Mordremoth wore off, may have spent time looking back and thinking of it, came to the wrong answer (IE, they could've saved Eir if they were faster, which season 3 explicitly shows is what he thought), found a new focus (finding the scroll to kill Jormag) and had these grieving thoughts and feelings emerge again because the Commander was present pushing every button wrong.

A: Causing the Svanir to swarm and try to kill Braham in (his words/view) a poorly thought out plan that went bad.

B: Abandoning Destiny's Edge and forming a new guild, disrespecting Eir and Snaff in his view. Instead of continuing their legacy by being destiny's edge, the commander disrespected them by ending the guild, in Braham's view.

C : Bringing up a bunch of human politics that are pointless in the face of killing Jormag.

D : Telling him to wait a few days for Taimi's research to finish, as opposed to taking the known weapon, testing it now, then marching on Jormag. 

He very explicitly lashes out at Rox telling him his goal of "kill every dragon or die trying" is extreme by going "Talk to me after they've taken your mother".

He then lashes out with "Every moment we wait, someone else's mother dies! I won't give Jormag a few days! I won't give Jormag a few minutes."

Explicitly, beyond clearly, he has looked back at the jungle and thinks they could've saved Eir if they had rushed the prison instead of waiting.

Again,. AGAIN.  THIS IS NOT FACTUALLY TRUE OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE DELAY OR IF THEY COULD'VE SAVED EIR.

Braham had every button jabbed to bring back those emotions and thoughts, and he was alone for that year, maybe sitting in Eir's lodge or wandering the shiverpeaks. He didn't have friends or family around him to help him grieve and work through things.

He had time to think, came to the wrong answer, and got stuck in it.

 

I had a gun in my face. I came to the conclusion that i had done everything I could've done right, and nothing would've made the situation better. A coworker years back had  a gun shoved at her in a robbery, and she emerged from that unable to step back inside of the building, and terrified if anybody is too close behind her.

Just because I understood that nothing could've changed that moment does not invalidate that her reaction is that of being trapped in "What could've I done differently? What if?"

 

The commander was also plagued by Eir's Death, they just held a solid exterior compared to Braham. Just because you have time to think about the events does not mean you will result in the logical, rational answer to how things happened.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

It is suspected many creatures that live in Tyria came through the mists, which is likely true considering their overwhelmingly heterogeneous taxonomy.  
Asura and ogres could be distant relatives looking at their sharp teeth, long arms, short legs, pointy ears, lack of body hair, little gender dymorphism, etc. 
Same for humans, norn, and dwarves. They are too similar. They either have one common ancestor or come from alternate versions of the same world. 
The Mists can make things fuzzy like that. 
This means orcs or any other existing or new race could exist anywhere in Tyria. 

So it's just a case of "never say never".

 

[draxynnic.3719]

14 minutes ago, MithranArkanere.8957 said:

It is suspected many creatures that live in Tyria came through the mists, which is likely true considering their overwhelmingly heterogeneous taxonomy.  
Asura and ogres could be distant relatives looking at their sharp teeth, long arms, short legs, pointy ears, lack of body hair, little gender dymorphism, etc. 
Same for humans, norn, and dwarves. They are too similar. They either have one common ancestor or come from alternate versions of the same world. 
The Mists can make things fuzzy like that. 
This means orcs or any other existing or new race could exist anywhere in Tyria. 

So it's just a case of "never say never".

 

I think the main thing making orcs unlikely is that ArenaNet seems to prefer not to use anything too "standard". Dwarfs were introduced before they decided on that policy and they were integral enough to the story that they couldn't just write them out. As noted previously, the charr seem to have been originally invented as something that fills a similar role to orcs, but which are not orcs, although the GW2 charr are a long way from those roots (or perhaps they've come full circle, given some of Tolkein's descriptions and attitudes).

So I'd be very surprised if ArenaNet were to just add orcs, and even if they did, they'd probably have some unique twist to them.

[Kalavier.1097]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the main thing making orcs unlikely is that ArenaNet seems to prefer not to use anything too "standard". Dwarfs were introduced before they decided on that policy and they were integral enough to the story that they couldn't just write them out. As noted previously, the charr seem to have been originally invented as something that fills a similar role to orcs, but which are not orcs, although the GW2 charr are a long way from those roots (or perhaps they've come full circle, given some of Tolkein's descriptions and attitudes).

So I'd be very surprised if ArenaNet were to just add orcs, and even if they did, they'd probably have some unique twist to them.

Some of Tolkiens stuff has been twisted by people though.

But we do have a lot of "typical" fantasy stuff, just not in the typical way. Asura fill the role that some settings have goblins and gnomes in, tech/magic/business. Charr are similar to orcs *but with more intelligence*. Sylvari fit the typical human role that is the younger race curious, spreading wide, and exploring. Humans were the elf-like race of great power in decline, but now they've stabilized and are regaining strength some.

Dwarves I actually kinda like because they avoided that usual stuff of "Oh the dwarves used to have so many vast underground cities but have lost them all besides one or two". Mostly because their leaving the cities was self-imposed because of Stone and Primordus, but it was a refreshing change. Though I suppose one could say the Asura also fit that trope of dwarves as well, having lost their underground cities to Primordus.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Some of Tolkiens stuff has been twisted by people though.

But we do have a lot of "typical" fantasy stuff, just not in the typical way. Asura fill the role that some settings have goblins and gnomes in, tech/magic/business. Charr are similar to orcs *but with more intelligence*. Sylvari fit the typical human role that is the younger race curious, spreading wide, and exploring. Humans were the elf-like race of great power in decline, but now they've stabilized and are regaining strength some.

Dwarves I actually kinda like because they avoided that usual stuff of "Oh the dwarves used to have so many vast underground cities but have lost them all besides one or two". Mostly because their leaving the cities was self-imposed because of Stone and Primordus, but it was a refreshing change. Though I suppose one could say the Asura also fit that trope of dwarves as well, having lost their underground cities to Primordus.

Yeah, a lot of the same tropes are coming up, but they're in different mixes (for instance, sylvari and humans in Guild Wars are both a mix of traditional human and elf tropes, but they're contrasting mixes), and the closest to being a typical fantasy race are the dwarfs. Which were pretty much typical fantasy dwarfs in Prophecies, except that the enemy they were losing territory to was other dwarfs.

[TeeracK.3601]

The main reason tyria is popular in any regard is because its not just another unimaginative thoughtless lazy fantasy world full of orcs, elfs, goblins, gnomes, etc, Not every fantasy would needs to be the same boring things. There is already plenty of that. The return of the dawrfs is the only boring fantasy element i think people can tolerate because they were in gw1.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

we have orcs; they're called jotun, and one of them is even a main character in the latest storyline. i would like to see more of them, personally.

Edited October 23, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Jotun and grawl are pretty much GW2's equivalent of orcs, anyways.

[Luthan.5236]

Sylvari are the GW2 version of elves. Asura are the GW2 version of gnomes. And the Charr ... are the GW2 version of orcs. 😄

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Sylvari are the GW2 version of elves. Asura are the GW2 version of gnomes. And the Charr ... are the GW2 version of orcs. 😄

Technically one can say that humans are meant to be the GW2 version of elves, because they're the race who once had grand heights and have fallen, only left with their ancient histories and declining kingdoms.

Though sylvari fill the role of "close to nature race" that elves tend to do in D&D-inspired campaigns, humans fill the role of "ancient race with knowledge" that Tolkien-inspired elves fill.

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

Sylvari are the GW2 version of elves. Asura are the GW2 version of gnomes. And the Charr ... are the GW2 version of orcs. 😄

Humans hold the spot of fading empires and stubborn (at times) refusal to change. Ascalon descendants especially.

Sylvari are the classic fantasy humans, a young race curious and exploring, getting into everything.

[CETheLucid.3964]

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Technically one can say that humans are meant to be the GW2 version of elves, because they're the race who once had grand heights and have fallen, only left with their ancient histories and declining kingdoms.

Though sylvari fill the role of "close to nature race" that elves tend to do in D&D-inspired campaigns, humans fill the role of "ancient race with knowledge" that Tolkien-inspired elves fill.

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Humans hold the spot of fading empires and stubborn (at times) refusal to change. Ascalon descendants especially.

Sylvari are the classic fantasy humans, a young race curious and exploring, getting into everything.

In a sense. I get what you mean in that they fill the 'yesterdays heroes' role from GW1, but technically humans are the youngest (or newest) race in Tyria behind sylvari. And an argument can be made that since the sylvari are the spawn of an elder dragon, they're a great deal older in concept. Though our version, the sylvari as they are now, are certainly a new and unprecedented thing in the history of Tyria.

[Luthan.5236]

I think it makes more sense to compare the looks. Not the lore/background in the world/setting. There are already fantasy settings that officially call a race "elves" with them being totally different than the Tolkien or D&D version. Though I have to admit for the gnome comparison I thought of WoW.

The humans seem clearly human though. I do not see the Sylvari "new race" similar to the depiction of humans in other games. That usually comes with trying to expand by war and stuff like that. (They do not age that much compared to certain other races but because of that they are motivated to progress a lot and developing fast.) Where the Sylvari seem a lot more peacful. (With some exceptionsof course.)

Jotun that someone mentioned maybe ... could be compared to the orcs because of the mystical stuff. I think the classic orcs have shamans and the Jotun also are interested in such stuff. (The runestones and other things.)

Orcs made most sense to me though ... since we usually talk about the big playable races. And they are militarily organized - a bit similar to some orc tribe with a war chief. Just that they have a bigger nation/organization and even tech. (Reminds of Warhammer 40k lol. :D)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

10 hours ago, CETheLucid.3964 said:

but technically humans are the youngest (or newest) race in Tyria behind sylvari. And an argument can be made that since the sylvari are the spawn of an elder dragon, they're a great deal older in concept. Though our version, the sylvari as they are now, are certainly a new and unprecedented thing in the history of Tyria.

Not sure I'd agree with that.

While the humans are technically younger than many races (the five elder races, kodan, tengu, karka, charr, and presumably jotun), they may very well be younger than many others including norn, asura, quaggan, krait, naga, and largos. And could be "just as old" as Forgotten who also came from the god realms.

As to the sylvari being older in concept... mordrem don't seem to have souls while sylvari do, so while they may hold a similar point of origin, I wouldn't consider them to be the same. I would even argue it could be a situation like neanderthals and homosapiens. Similar but technically different species. Even then, their culture and history is 100% brand new.

But I guess it's all semantics.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

11 hours ago, CETheLucid.3964 said:

In a sense. I get what you mean in that they fill the 'yesterdays heroes' role from GW1, but technically humans are the youngest (or newest) race in Tyria behind sylvari. And an argument can be made that since the sylvari are the spawn of an elder dragon, they're a great deal older in concept. Though our version, the sylvari as they are now, are certainly a new and unprecedented thing in the history of Tyria.

Not "yesterday's heroes" but if one is looking at a certain view of the races, Elves are shown as the "Grand, massive empires that have fallen and the remaining ones are in decline" while humans are "New, curious, and expanding."

2 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said:

The humans seem clearly human though. I do not see the Sylvari "new race" similar to the depiction of humans in other games. That usually comes with trying to expand by war and stuff like that. (They do not age that much compared to certain other races but because of that they are motivated to progress a lot and developing fast.) Where the Sylvari seem a lot more peacful. (With some exceptionsof course.)

Humans being the curious young race that is rapidly expanding is often about them filling gaps of land that used to be other's former kingdoms, but is no longer.

The Sylvari area of control used to be Kryta, and they rapidly filled the region up. 

[draxynnic.3719]

As I think I said earlier, the sylvari and GW2 humans are a bit of a 'remix' of the traits typically associated with elves and humans in classic fantasy. Sylvari get being close to nature, a touch of feyness, and greater concern for life typically associated with elves, but have the "vibrant and curious new race" aspect typically associated with humans. Humans, meanwhile, retain the warlike quality typically associated with humans, but have deep traditions of conventional magic, have been the keepers of much of the world's known history, and have the track record of having made great sacrifices to defend the world in the past that have resulted in losses in power in the present that are often elven tropes. Humans also have a touch of otherworldliness from explicitly having come from some other realm (which makes judgements of humanity's age difficult - their history before arriving on Tyria has been lost, but all of the playable races have known histories that only go back so far).