Ele is trash

[Flowki.7194]

On 10/19/2023 at 6:37 PM, aymnad.9023 said:

Good compared to most weapons available in the game. Just take a look at what other professions have. For most professions dragon’s tooth or shatterstone is the equivalent of a heavy hitting skill on a close combat weapon. The only spell that needs direct vision is water trident when most professions need to face the target or have to face projectile reflect. There are not that many weapons as strong and flexible at the same time.

Dragontooth hangs over the players head, so even unaware players in a group fight get to see it comming, which makes it the most reliably dodged ability in the game. Its damage is not that great at all, when you have to go full glass 11-13k hp, stack might or some FA vulnerability just to hit 4k+. Plenty of specs hit that with far more hp and next to no might/vuln. SB has multiple 4k+ hitters, Blade, vindi, chrono (combined shatter) and so on.

 

Engi and rev have about turn damage, but its only of use if you outrange/out mobility the player. Scepter is matched or out ranged by a fair few specs. If I was given the choice of reverting scepter but removing about turn damage, its a no brainer.. becuase then you wouldnt have to play full glass just to do on par damage of other specs. Even thief has more hp than ele, and is also much lower risk with its mobility/stealth mechanics. The fact that their are so many LB rangers in the game now pretty much shows you there is a lack of eles, and I wonder why.

 

I don't see why power scepter cata/weaver/dps tempest, all with moderate to high skill floors, have to be so glass cannon, and so punishing for the slightest mistake just to attain avg level dmg. And tbf that also applys to dagger. Hammer is the only weapon with decent damage, but hammer cata has garbedge mobility/condi clense, and the weapon gives kitten poor sustain on other specs with no water field.

 

You can litterally play LB/staff ranger, and do as much group fight damage as the avg ele spec, with FAR less risk.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Khalisto.5780]

I think we can call the class cataclysm right now

All we got were nerfs

Ss nerf

Scepter nerfs

Off dagger nerfs

Written in stones nerfs

Signets nerfs

The only good weaver builds was nerfed cuz of scepter nerfs

And lastly we end up only with a hammer build on catalyst and staff tempest, cuz god bless catalyst didnt touch staff in pvp

[aymnad.9023]

10 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Dragontooth hangs over the players head, so even unaware players in a group fight get to see it comming, which makes it the most reliably dodged ability in the game. Its damage is not that great at all, when you have to go full glass 11-13k hp, stack might or some FA vulnerability just to hit 4k+. Plenty of specs hit that with far more hp and next to no might/vuln. SB has multiple 4k+ hitters, Blade, vindi, chrono (combined shatter) and so on.

 

Engi and rev have about turn damage, but its only of use if you outrange/out mobility the player. Scepter is matched or out ranged by a fair few specs. If I was given the choice of reverting scepter but removing about turn damage, its a no brainer.. becuase then you wouldnt have to play full glass just to do on par damage of other specs. Even thief has more hp than ele, and is also much lower risk with its mobility/stealth mechanics. The fact that their are so many LB rangers in the game now pretty much shows you there is a lack of eles, and I wonder why.

 

I don't see why power scepter cata/weaver/dps tempest, all with moderate to high skill floors, have to be so glass cannon, and so punishing for the slightest mistake just to attain avg level dmg. And tbf that also applys to dagger. Hammer is the only weapon with decent damage, but hammer cata has garbedge mobility/condi clense, and the weapon gives kitten poor sustain on other specs with no water field.

 

You can litterally play LB/staff ranger, and do as much group fight damage as the avg ele spec, with FAR less risk.

I will not deny that the tell is more obvious than Maul or shackling wave, but it also is a ranged version that does not require direct vision, will track you once casted and cannot be reflected. Still pretty good on its own if you ask me. The elementalist can also add any spells after the initial cast. Even if it just gets dodged there are still other elements / skills you can cycle with. This allows you to either try to burst with multiple skills at once or space them a little to get constant pressure. Once again I find it quite flexible.

As for about face well I kind of gave my rant about it after multishot got hit last patch because so many skills in the game have been working this way for years and are still NOT considered a bug. Ele is also guilty about it with focus. But since ele scepter does not require this technique to be fired behind it is easier to maintain distance and even more accessible to anyone.  

Since you also mention cleanses and compare it to hammer I guess I can go off topic for 1 moment and say that scepter is not played alone and that additional strengths can be found in the offhand weapon.

Edited October 21, 2023 by aymnad.9023

[Kuma.1503]

To more closely address the topic. 

Ele is not trash. It's perfectly playable right now. However, the effort/reward ratio isn't as high as it is on other classes. That's how it's been for the majority of the class's history, so any long term ele main likely won't mind this all that much. 

However. That does not excuse the atrocious balance decisions that were made in order to tone it down. Over buffing signets, then nerfing them into a state weaker than they began. Focusing nerfs on scepter isntead of catalyst, making core/weaver with scepter weaker. (Some were needed, but the last round was overkill).

Overnerfing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Conjurer, turning it into a dead trait instead of just increasing earth shield cooldowns. Funny glass lightning hammer builds did not need that nerf. 

These problems are not unique to ele. Anet loves to nerf balanced builds while toning down overtuned ones. Power berserker just got that treatment last patch. 

I don't think we need to resort to hyperbole by claming ele is trash in order to point out Anet's poor balancing choices. It makes it easy to overlook the legitimate problems with the class when someone points out the workable aspects that were left (mostly) unscathed... Like Staff Tempest and Hammer. 

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, aymnad.9023 said:

I will not deny that the tell is more obvious than Maul or shackling wave, but it also is a ranged version that does not require direct vision, will track you once casted and cannot be reflected. Still pretty good on its own if you ask me. The elementalist can also add any spells after the initial cast. Even if it just gets dodged there are still other elements / skills you can cycle with. This allows you to either try to burst with multiple skills at once or space them a little to get constant pressure. Once again I find it quite flexible.

As for about face well I kind of gave my rant about it after multishot got hit last patch because so many skills in the game have been working this way for years and are still NOT considered a bug. Ele is also guilty about it with focus. But since ele scepter does not require this technique to be fired behind it is easier to maintain distance and even more accessible to anyone.  

Since you also mention cleanses and compare it to hammer I guess I can go off topic for 1 moment and say that scepter is not played alone and that additional strengths can be found in the offhand weapon.

The combined ''burst'' of ele is very easily avoided, becuase it will most likely come after focus stun, and dragon is also a for warning. OH dagger CC is more situational, and not as reliable/safe in setting up CC. Those issues asside, the burst is not insane, Zerker does more with ONE button, SB does more, chrono does more, scrapper does more, even necro does more on power/harb. What is important to also understand is that ALL of eles immunes/blocks do not allow it to attack back, while many of the burst/high dps specs can still do their burst while immune to all, or physical damage/crits. Ele is on the back foot in almost any burst encounter because of both lower burst dmg and inferior application of it (more buttons to achieve it and not being able to attack while immune). Im not suggesting being able to attack while immune is a good thing.. I think its absolute bs, but many specs have it, thats the reality of the game. The prolonged damage of scepter is nothing to get exited about, chrono for example can spread its burst with cont split over 20 seconds, whith far superior mechanics that allow it to apply that damage, most other specs have higher sustained damage than scepter, and more hp/raw sustain. All decent condi specs have sustain damage that out does power scepter, I could go on. Ele has 11-13k hp at best to do decent damage, its immunes/blocks mean it has no real sustained damage.

 

The game now has alot more rangers, which vastly out range scepter, while rangers have some very decent mobility/sustain options. A lot more people are also resorting to bunker style condi builds, scourge, engi, rev, mesmer, warrior, ranger, even specter, all have some high sustain builds in there, which scepter ele will very unlikely be able to out dps+sustain >> have to super speed away. So, scepter ele has the lowerst HP pool in tha game, has average burst damage at best, and does not have the sustain/dps to kill decent duelist/bunker builds. The way it looks to me, scepter ele is of newb slayer status, becuase only vet eles are left playing it, and they will mostly only be succesffull against less skilled players, or players on an outright worse spec.

 

The only reason ele is remotely playable is becuase of the traits across certain lines. All of the weapons have serious issues, apart from staff, but full suport specs are naturally not fun to play due to the complete reliance on compitant team mates. Hammer is only useful with jade spheres, yet hammer cata is an immobile spec, easily kited for side noding with more risk of being +1d, struggles badly with high condi pressure/bombs, and their are multiple superior group fighters that are also not as difficult to play. I don't even know why hammer cata is even considered good? it feels more like tier B most of the time, or certainly not worth the effort compared to other comparisons.

 

 

Don't get me wrong for a second here, Im not saying ele can't kill things, it very much can, but the skill floor/risk and punishments for mistakes got higher across all ele builds. The rune changes didn't help we lost even more hp, scepter nerf killed off a lot of condi builds with sustain, power builds are doing less dmg = less pressure = you need to be even beter at mitigating in order to pressure. It is by far the hardest class for new to avg players, and its simply not worth the headache when every other class in the game has a spec that gives avg rewards for far less effort/risk. Its basicaly a gold 3 skill level requirement just to pull avg rewards out of ele.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[magickthief.6492]

Ele being weak thread didn't take off? No way! Imagine that no one believed that BS

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

give ele stealth then its balanced

[Flowki.7194]

14 hours ago, magickthief.6492 said:

Ele being weak thread didn't take off? No way! Imagine that no one believed that BS

The true ele playerbase in sPVP was small, condi cata came along and it got big, ele took massive nerfs, now the ele playerbase is tiny. The biggest playerbase seems to be necros and warrior, with ranger way up there now (ele countered LB), so why on earth do you feel this forum would have any meaningful support for fixing scepter when 90% of the players here would not directly benefit from it? free reign for warriors, rangers wanne pew pew with 2, even though double barrage? etc.

Even if they fixd scpepter it would only result in ele playerbase going back up to ''small'' representation. There are far easier ways of doing damage.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[magickthief.6492]

16 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

The true ele playerbase in sPVP was small, condi cata came along and it got big, ele took massive nerfs, now the ele playerbase is tiny. The biggest playerbase seems to be necros and warrior, with ranger way up there now (ele countered LB), so why on earth do you feel this forum would have any meaningful support for fixing scepter when 90% of the players here would not directly benefit from it? free reign for warriors, rangers wanne pew pew with 2, even though double barrage? etc.

Even if they fixd scpepter it would only result in ele playerbase going back up to ''small'' representation. There are far easier ways of doing damage.

The probem with many of the complaints on the forums, is from players who already have meta builds in their class, sometimes two. Like ele. But, it is not the role they want, which is ALL ROLES. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way atm, it did, it literally did a few months ago for a few years running, for ele, but now you will have to settle for teamfighter and support. Woe is ele.

[Flowki.7194]

48 minutes ago, magickthief.6492 said:

The probem with many of the complaints on the forums, is from players who already have meta builds in their class, sometimes two. Like ele. But, it is not the role they want, which is ALL ROLES. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way atm, it did, it literally did a few months ago for a few years running, for ele, but now you will have to settle for teamfighter and support. Woe is ele.

90% of ele builds I played were team fighter, support or +1, and all were off meta... so dunno what you are getting at?

 

Currently if I want to play ele, I am forced into power, and only 16k hp with maura, while just about all current ''team fighters'' are running condi with 20k+hp, or can get away with zerker amu with 16-18k hp, im instantly at a dps disadvantedge for the same hp, or a hp dissadvantedge for the same dmg. The only real exception is chrono at around 15.7?, but it has far better range/application of damage at a safer distance, and the ability to still atack while immune+stealth jumps. I know becuase I play it, and its FAR safer than playing current ele in group fights +more reliable burst.

 

The class took a massive hit in condi, and condi lines are where the group fight sustain is, so play those lines with no condi damage and good sustain OR play power damage and no sustain. This is with marua don't forget.. its even worse if you still have the balls to enter a group fight with zerker amu. Im litterally on the razor edge of dying trying to ''scrapper'' play my way into group fights, covering my kitten with arcane shield+armor of earth and having to be instantly ready to lightning flash out.. becuase  arc/AE gets absolutely shreded in 1 second, really, 1 second. I even tried power tempest with rebound to chain 2x arcane shield+shock aura while setting up, still razor edge gameplay.

 

Why would you justify that level of glass gameplay (it is genuinely glass gameplay) when necros, warriors, rev, rangers, mesmers.. just about every class, has a spec that can walk into a group fight with ease, do there burst/condi, with superior/easier/reliable defense mechanics to apply it. The only spec that can't walk into a group fight with any level of staying power is dps thief, but last time I checked.... ele doesnt have stealth and insane mobility to make up for it.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[magickthief.6492]

9 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

90% of ele builds I played were team fighter, support or +1, and all were

Spoiler

off meta

... so dunno what you are getting at?

 

Currently if I want to play ele, I am forced into power, and only 16k hp with maura, while just about all current ''team fighters'' are running condi with 20k+hp, or can get away with zerker amu with 16-18k hp, im instantly at a dps disadvantedge for the same hp, or a hp dissadvantedge for the same dmg. The only real exception is chrono at around 15.7?, but it has far better range/application of damage at a safer distance, and the ability to still atack while immune+stealth jumps. I know becuase I play it, and its FAR safer than playing current ele in group fights +more reliable burst.

 

The class took a massive hit in condi, and condi lines are where the group fight sustain is, so play those lines with no condi damage and good sustain OR play power damage and no sustain. This is with marua don't forget.. its even worse if you still have the balls to enter a group fight with zerker amu. Im litterally on the razor edge of dying trying to ''scrapper'' play my way into group fights, covering my kitten with arcane shield+armor of earth and having to be instantly ready to lightning flash out.. becuase  arc/AE gets absolutely shreded in 1 second, really, 1 second. I even tried power tempest with rebound to chain 2x arcane shield+shock aura while setting up, still razor edge gameplay.

 

Why would you justify that level of glass gameplay (it is genuinely glass gameplay) when necros, warriors, rev, rangers, mesmers.. just about every class, has a spec that can walk into a group fight with ease, do there burst, and not core their kitten with superior defense mechanics. The only spec that can't walk into a group fight with any level of staying power is dps thief, but last time I checked.... ele doesnt have stealth and insane mobility to make up for it.

 

 

1. Ele isn't the only 11k health class, and like the other classes that are in the same boat, and they all have some ability to balance it out.

2. You have two meta options. TWO META OPTIONs

3. YOUR own build doesn't get to META by default, it is meta or it is not. If you handicap yourself, that doesn't mean your class is poop.

4. Unless all of your utilities are dedicated to to dps, and all of your traits are dedicated to dps, without any defensive anything, it TRULY ISNT glass.

5. There are and NEED to be limitations in to what roles classes can be, otherwise, we have years of OP class doing everything, *cough" ele.

6. Ele is not an assassin class, so no, they wouldn't have the same tools. Literally, stop comparing them to thief. You should compare yourself to guardian, for fairness. That would be a closer comparison.

Edited October 25, 2023 by magickthief.6492

[Flowki.7194]

21 minutes ago, magickthief.6492 said:

1. Ele isn't the only 11k health class, and like the other classes that are in the same boat, and they all have some ability to balance it out.

2. You have two meta options. TWO META OPTIONs

3. YOUR own build doesn't get to META by default, it is meta or it is not. If you handicap yourself, that doesn't mean your class is poop.

4. Unless all of your utilities are dedicated to to dps, and all of your traits are dedicated to dps, without any defensive anything, it TRULY ISNT glass.

5. There are and NEED to be limitations in to what roles classes can be, otherwise, we have years of OP class doing everything, *cough" ele.

6. Ele is not an assassin class, so no, they wouldn't have the same tools. Literally, stop comparing them to thief. You should compare yourself to guardian, for fairness. That would be a closer comparison.

Na youre talking out your kitten mate. Hammer cata is not meta in the reality of the game for most of us, go and try it with the current side noders, and go and try it in group fights with the amount of condi spam (which hammer cata deals badly with). Staff tempest is not dps, and staff tempest, like all supports, suffers badly to incompitant team mates = its not fun = very few players use it, despite its meta status.

The problem with trying to justify the game with ''meta builds'' is that meta builds only apply to the highest level where decent support are active, and the toxic specs are not present. In the level of the game 90% of players are at, the avg mid point is full of floor condi spam, necros, DHs.. w/e else of that nature, and 0 decent support. Please, go play cata on the avg mid point and get back to me. Not even touching on how hard hammer cata is compared to nion every other group fight/side noder.

 

There is a reason I don't play meta builds on ele, its not a matter of preference, its a matter of the average teamates/enemy you go against making the meta build less efficiant than off meta.

 

Oh I missed your thief comment. Yeah youre clearly an ele hater who has never played the class apart from condi cata... the current FA power and the old FA power ele was/is far closer to thief than to gaurdian. You clearly don't have a clue. The comparable to gaurdian would be willbender and herald. But I get it, meta tempest has a staff, gaudian has a staff, 2+2.

 

Btw what specs have less hp than zerker ele? Also, what specs have less hp than maura ele?, be specific.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[magickthief.6492]

13 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

 

Btw what specs have less hp than zerker ele? Also, what specs have less hp than maura ele?, be specific.

zerker core thief has the same, but i already said stop comparing the two, the are not the same kind of class. STOP comparing ele to thief roles, they are not supposed to be in them.

[Flowki.7194]

9 minutes ago, magickthief.6492 said:

zerker core thief has the same, but i already said stop comparing the two, the are not the same kind of class. STOP comparing ele to thief roles, they are not supposed to be in them.

Why stop comparing them? when FA ele litterally has a very similar playstyle in aproaching group fights as thief? FA ele is basically all that is left to achieve half decent damage and still have the ability to get out.. which you ofc MUST have with 11-16k hp and 0 natural sustain (light class, very few passive mititgations on FA ele, etc).

 

You named 1 spec, which has FAR better ''get in and get out'' utility than ele. Any more specs?. And for the record, we all know power thief entering a group fight, even with its superior get out, is dangerous as fk for the thief, so its hardly better for the FA ele now is it?.. and by your own admition ele is now suppose to be restricted to ''group fights''.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[magickthief.6492]

14 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Why stop comparing them? when FA ele litterally has a very similar playstyle in aproaching group fights as thief? FA ele is basically all that is left to achieve half decent damage and still have the ability to get out.. which you ofc MUST have with 11-16k hp and 0 natural sustain (light class, very few passive mititgations on FA ele, etc).

 

You named 1 spec, which has FAR better ''get in and get out'' utility than ele. Any more specs?. And for the record, we all know power thief entering a group fight, even with its superior get out, is dangerous as fk for the thief, so its hardly better for the FA ele now is it?.. and by your own admition ele is now suppose to be restricted to ''group fights''.

Eles have builds that allow them to be godly and far superior in team fights and support, and you want to be able to gank and dash like a thief too? Thief doesn't compare to your classes best two roles, not even kinda close. Lightyears away even. But, FA ele is comparable to a a zerker thief, by YOUR OWN admission.  

So, yeah, stop comparing them. Ele has roles, they don't get to be great at everything, just like everyone else.

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, magickthief.6492 said:

Eles have builds that allow them to be godly and far superior in team fights and support, and you want to be able to gank and dash like a thief too? Thief doesn't compare to your classes best two roles, not even kinda close. Lightyears away even. But, FA ele is comparable to a a zerker thief, by YOUR OWN admission.  

So, yeah, stop comparing them. Ele has roles, they don't get to be great at everything, just like everyone else.

Youre completely and utterly missing the point, youve clearly never played any ele specs, ever, and you obviously had a rough time versus eles so are bias af. Its very obvious from your comments now.

 

The ''massive sustain'' specs (outside of hammer cata/shield weaver) require trait lines that favour condi damage NOT power. Condi damage was best on scepter, which has been nerfed into the ground. If you want to do good damage you now have no choice but to play power now. The power trait lines favour speed and damage, and vastly reduce mitigation and staying power (no reduced damage, protection from auras or crit immune from earth line, makes huge difference in survival). This means all condi specs are forced into lower scepter power damage builds (got nerfed also) or are forced into dagger main, which further increases the risk in group fights as its melee range. As this does not include earth line, its a big hit to survival, along with eles feeling the loss of amu HP in recent changes.

 

Tanky group fighting weavers have 0 damage, you mightaswell play blade or scourge, more damage, tank and team utility. DPS weavers are aweful group fighters, becuase the mechanics of weaver mean it is not reactive enough to adapt to the changing dynamics of group fights >> ranger just entered the group fight and targets you.. too bad you just swapped out of air, that kind of thing. Thats why weavers predominantly side node, and why I didn't play weaver so much, as I am predominantly a group fighter, it simply is not reactive enough past 2v2. Weavers will win against what current side noders? I'd hate to play weaver vs condi zerker or blade.. really would hate it. The gaping limitations of hammer cata in the majority of games I already outlined, please go and play this ''meta build'' on sides or group, and just see what I mean first hand in dealing with condi spam and much easier to play side noders. After playing bladesworn for like 2 hours, I was side noding and winning 1v2s, I also faced a half decent hammer cata and completely shredded him, it wasnt even funny. After months of playing hammer cata I never even came close to comfortably taking on 1v2's, unless they were practically afk. Condi zerker was almost as kitten, 4 chances to essentailly 1 shot people.

 

What ele builds are ''god mode''? again please be specific, becuase I can garuntee, any ele build that has god mode sustain has 0 damage, while their are plenty of other class specs that have as much sustain and far more damage (pretty much any condi build and a fair few power builds). The only ele spec that has good sustain in relation to its damage is hammer cata. Once again, go and play the meta build and see how easily kited you are by compitant players, or how much you struggle, and have to leave group fights becuase of condi spam and lack of support.

 

What is it you play?

Edited October 25, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Khalisto.5780]

i hope they unnerf signets next patch, like revert the cooldown changes or the icd or add power dmg back to scepter, or at least make signets proc any other effect that's not auras and a thousand effects aura procs, it could be literally anything lol, nothing would be as broken as auras.

[magickthief.6492]

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Youre completely and utterly missing the point, youve clearly never played any ele specs, ever, and you obviously had a rough time versus eles so are bias af. Its very obvious from your comments now.

 

The ''massive sustain'' specs (outside of hammer cata/shield weaver) require trait lines that favour condi damage NOT power. Condi damage was best on scepter, which has been nerfed into the ground. If you want to do good damage you now have no choice but to play power now. The power trait lines favour speed and damage, and vastly reduce mitigation and staying power (no reduced damage, protection from auras or crit immune from earth line, makes huge difference in survival). This means all condi specs are forced into lower scepter power damage builds (got nerfed also) or are forced into dagger main, which further increases the risk in group fights as its melee range. As this does not include earth line, its a big hit to survival, along with eles feeling the loss of amu HP in recent changes.

 

Tanky group fighting weavers have 0 damage, you mightaswell play blade or scourge, more damage, tank and team utility. DPS weavers are aweful group fighters, becuase the mechanics of weaver mean it is not reactive enough to adapt to the changing dynamics of group fights >> ranger just entered the group fight and targets you.. too bad you just swapped out of air, that kind of thing. Thats why weavers predominantly side node, and why I didn't play weaver so much, as I am predominantly a group fighter, it simply is not reactive enough past 2v2. Weavers will win against what current side noders? I'd hate to play weaver vs condi zerker or blade.. really would hate it. The gaping limitations of hammer cata in the majority of games I already outlined, please go and play this ''meta build'' on sides or group, and just see what I mean first hand in dealing with condi spam and much easier to play side noders. After playing bladesworn for like 2 hours, I was side noding and winning 1v2s, I also faced a half decent hammer cata and completely shredded him, it wasnt even funny. After months of playing hammer cata I never even came close to comfortably taking on 1v2's, unless they were practically afk. Condi zerker was almost as kitten, 4 chances to essentailly 1 shot people.

 

What ele builds are ''god mode''? again please be specific, becuase I can garuntee, any ele build that has god mode sustain has 0 damage, while their are plenty of other class specs that have as much sustain and far more damage (pretty much any condi build and a fair few power builds). The only ele spec that has good sustain in relation to its damage is hammer cata. Once again, go and play the meta build and see how easily kited you are by compitant players, or how much you struggle, and have to leave group fights becuase of condi spam and lack of support.

 

What is it you play?

Ad hominem and strawman, not even worth discussing anymore with you. Your "passion" will probably get the thread locked before you calm down and have a reasonable discussion. I'm going to decline partaking in the discussion, and will leave unswayed in my opinion.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Anyone who thinks ele is trash right now is suffering from "boosted-syndrome".

Ele was redonkulously broken a couple meta's ago, with scepter cata being one of the very few builds in the game to reach the status of being so hilariously and obviously cracked that you could run 5 of them and win top tournaments against serious teams ( Who were also likely running at least 2 of their own ).  Tempest was also top support, and hammer cata was also SS sidenode.

Guess what, Tempest is still a meta support and Power hammer is still a fantastic sidenode. Ele still has access to a ton of mechanics which allow it to dish out unavoidable damage spikes and aura spam. The difference between then and now is that these things aren't completely breaking the game. And so players who were boosted by the previous metas borked version of Ele now think the class is "bad", when in reality they just can't cope with no longer being boosted.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Master Ketsu.4569

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

51 minutes ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Anyone who thinks ele is trash right now is suffering from "boosted-syndrome"

I was going to say the same thing but you beat me to do it. This thread is yet another fine example of Ele desensitization syndrome.

Ele is still very strong. It's still arguably the best support, it's one of the best duelists in the game, and imo is the best side node/team fight hybrid. We aren't even just talking listed meta builds here. I'm seeing at least half a dozen different Ele variants being ran around NA and they all feel strong. From Support Tempest to Tempest DPS, Hammer Catas & FA Catas, and even Weaver variants are strangely powerful lately. I have no idea what changed with Weaver, maybe it's just a particular build structure some people are using, but I'm fairly convinced these Weaver builds lately are outperforming Hammer Cata at its job role.

Ele's glaring strength becomes extremely noticeable during 2v2 seasons. Ele/Necro - Ele/Guard - Ele/Ele - Ele/Anything stacks are always the most difficult teams to deal with. It's not only one of the strongest classes, but also one of the most flexible classes in pvp. If we were talking wvw, Ele is actually S++ God Tier with cele stats. Even if the Ele can't kill you, it won't die unless the person wielding it is the equivalent of a silver 3/gold 1.

I get the frustration from Ele players about hacksaw styled balancing and how they'd have rather seen different kinds of changes, but claiming that Ele as a class is bad, is just ridiculous.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Yeah, I don't see 'godmode' eles anymore.  Either the player is good and the spec appears broken like with chrono, holo, and untamed, or the player is bad and contributes little to nothing.  

If anything, your LI specs right now seem to be condi zerk, bladesworn, virt, and reaper.  

[Flowki.7194]

14 hours ago, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

Anyone who thinks ele is trash right now is suffering from "boosted-syndrome".

Ele was redonkulously broken a couple meta's ago, with scepter cata being one of the very few builds in the game to reach the status of being so hilariously and obviously cracked that you could run 5 of them and win top tournaments against serious teams ( Who were also likely running at least 2 of their own ).  Tempest was also top support, and hammer cata was also SS sidenode.

Guess what, Tempest is still a meta support and Power hammer is still a fantastic sidenode. Ele still has access to a ton of mechanics which allow it to dish out unavoidable damage spikes and aura spam. The difference between then and now is that these things aren't completely breaking the game. And so players who were boosted by the previous metas borked version of Ele now think the class is "bad", when in reality they just can't cope with no longer being boosted.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I was going to say the same thing but you beat me to do it. This thread is yet another fine example of Ele desensitization syndrome.

Ele is still very strong. It's still arguably the best support, it's one of the best duelists in the game, and imo is the best side node/team fight hybrid. We aren't even just talking listed meta builds here. I'm seeing at least half a dozen different Ele variants being ran around NA and they all feel strong. From Support Tempest to Tempest DPS, Hammer Catas & FA Catas, and even Weaver variants are strangely powerful lately. I have no idea what changed with Weaver, maybe it's just a particular build structure some people are using, but I'm fairly convinced these Weaver builds lately are outperforming Hammer Cata at its job role.

Ele's glaring strength becomes extremely noticeable during 2v2 seasons. Ele/Necro - Ele/Guard - Ele/Ele - Ele/Anything stacks are always the most difficult teams to deal with. It's not only one of the strongest classes, but also one of the most flexible classes in pvp. If we were talking wvw, Ele is actually S++ God Tier with cele stats. Even if the Ele can't kill you, it won't die unless the person wielding it is the equivalent of a silver 3/gold 1.

I get the frustration from Ele players about hacksaw styled balancing and how they'd have rather seen different kinds of changes, but claiming that Ele as a class is bad, is just ridiculous.

That is a load of bs. The similar/more damage reward you can get out of other specs for lower effort/risk is obvious to anybody who has played all ele power specs and other class specs. SB is not hard, Chrono isnt hard to do damage with, warrior specs are not hard to do well with, as with necro. Gaurd is not hard to do well with. Specs have their limitations in effectivenes, like willbender, but they are not mechanically hard to play, and many specs have lower risk ratios than power ele. You are talking about something like meme power zerker to draw ''closer'' somparisons to playing power ele atm.

 

Condi has been completely nerfed on scepter, which basically removes so many playstyles, all of which focus on the more defensive trait lines. Most, if not all other classes condi builds work like that also, and they all still have access to it. So why would you defend the fact the elementalist class has lost 50% of its viable builds, litterally now redundent? Why is that good for eles or the game in general? People are already talking about untamed condi, shall we just destroy ranger condi also? so that 50% of your builds are redundent?  Lets just go with eye for an eye attitudes to balance? rather than advocating for balance changes that allow more diverse specs, rather than pushing an entire class into nothing but glass power builds? while many classes are moving into bunker/duelist builds. The average ele has to be very good to get meaningful results out of the spec, I know this because I play it.. then I go on chrono, warrior, necro, ranger, to some degree revenent, and its so clear what are the easier things to do well with. They have more damage, or more sustain, or more hp/natural tank, or less risk.

 

I play other specs, it doesnt bother me to not play ele, but its an outright joke for people to sit here and say the class has not took a massive overnerf, making half of its builds redundent, just to deal with condi cata. Ontop of that, hp reductions and power co nerfs to scepter have lowered power damage or forced dagger main, further lowering the effectiveness of the class while symontaniously increasing the skill floor or risk. Ele genuinely feels more risky to do its damage than chrono and SB, that may be a personal opinion but at-least I am making it from the position of playing all specs I compare with. I ''main'' revenenet now, I have no real need to biasly defend ele, other than stating the facts as I see it.

 

You make a mistake on power ele you are in real trouble, just 1 mistake, I have no issue with that, the off meta power builds I played before nerfs were of that nature, really nothing new. Of the specs I play currently or have played, only chrono comes close to the same punishment for a single mistake. DD thieves I know just from vsing them, get away with multiple very clear mistakes of judgement.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[shion.2084]

1 hour ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

That is a load of bs. The similar/more damage reward you can get out of other specs for lower effort/risk is obvious to anybody who has played all ele power specs and other class specs. SB is not hard, Chrono isnt hard to do damage with, warrior specs are not hard to do well with, as with necro. Gaurd is not hard to do well with. Specs have their limitations in effectivenes, like willbender, but they are not mechanically hard to play, and many specs have lower risk ratios than power ele. You are talking about something like meme power zerker to draw ''closer'' somparisons to playing power ele atm.

 

Condi has been completely nerfed on scepter, which basically removes so many playstyles, all of which focus on the more defensive trait lines. Most, if not all other classes condi builds work like that also, and they all still have access to it. So why would you defend the fact the elementalist class has lost 50% of its viable builds, litterally now redundent? Why is that good for eles or the game in general? People are already talking about untamed condi, shall we just destroy ranger condi also? so that 50% of your builds are redundent?  Lets just go with eye for an eye attitudes to balance? rather than advocating for balance changes that allow more diverse specs, rather than pushing an entire class into nothing but glass power builds? while many classes are moving into bunker/duelist builds. The average ele has to be very good to get meaningful results out of the spec, I know this because I play it.. then I go on chrono, warrior, necro, ranger, to some degree revenent, and its so clear what are the easier things to do well with. They have more damage, or more sustain, or more hp/natural tank, or less risk.

 

I play other specs, it doesnt bother me to not play ele, but its an outright joke for people to sit here and say the class has not took a massive overnerf, making half of its builds redundent, just to deal with condi cata. Ontop of that, hp reductions and power co nerfs to scepter have lowered power damage or forced dagger main, further lowering the effectiveness of the class while symontaniously increasing the skill floor or risk. Ele genuinely feels more risky to do its damage than chrono and SB, that may be a personal opinion but at-least I am making it from the position of playing all specs I compare with. I ''main'' revenenet now, I have no real need to biasly defend ele, other than stating the facts as I see it.

 

You make a mistake on power ele you are in real trouble, just 1 mistake, I have no issue with that, the off meta power builds I played before nerfs were of that nature, really nothing new. Of the specs I play currently or have played, only chrono comes close to the same punishment for a single mistake. DD thieves I know just from vsing them, get away with multiple very clear mistakes of judgement.

If you play plat in NA you'll see a lot of solid Ele's doing very well.   You get folks like that Newholiday, grimjack's various incarnations, etc. etc.   If you take holiday, his side node can bunker and still dish out a lot of condi damage.  The CC it has basically gives it a win against glassier classes that have few stunbreaks and stab access.   It repeatedly does very well.   You get folks running glassier, burstier variants.. but the one I have the most trouble with is the one that can eat my glass burst and then CC the crap out of you while piling on stacks of burn.   It works well side node and is useful in a team fight.   It's a great option and I am always happy to have a strong player of that on my team... Maybe your in Europe and the players run different things?

[vilesoldier.9826]

37 minutes ago, shion.2084 said:

Maybe your in Europe and the players run different things?

 

Likely part of it. I mean both regions might have similar tierlists but the populations tend to value different things based on what their top players play. Probably safe to say majority of NA finally figured out that ranger can be strong, but I'm sure EU is intimately familiar with it from Boyce clones #322. Same for NA with eles

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Condi has been completely nerfed on scepter

See, right there ^ This is what I'm talking about.

You act like it was normal or standard or balanced for an Ele to be able to spam 7k burn ticks with just auto 1 spam.

I rest my case.