Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[zealex.9410]

@Assic.2746 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Because they enjoy the game as a whole, and would enjoy having more complete access to it. They don't want to play hard mode raids, but they do want to play through that portion of the story. They don't want to play hard mode raids,

but they do want to be able to play through other parts of the game while wearing skins that can only be found there

. You don't have to understand their reasons. You don't have to empathize with their reasons. Just understand that their reasons exist, and there's nothing you can do about that, so your only options are to help, stay out of their way, or deliberately place yourself in the way of them getting what they want out of the game.

So once again it just boils down to the shinies.

Or you can explain them that their logic will lessen the experience of others. Because obv this change will be dome for the entirety of the game not just raids because certain individual want a skin.

And that as a result will dry out modes and content.

[Tyson.5160]

@crepuscular.9047 said:Easy Mode, definitely not, don't go down the path of WoWHard Mode, not too sure, there is only a very small portion of the Raid communicate find raid too easy, anet will need to find enough financial justifications to work on it; the problem is certain builds are way too OP for PvE

I see the current GW2 raid environment like vanilla WoW's Upper Blackrock Spire, good groups can breeze through it, average groups can only progress up to a certain point, bad groups get destroyed

Honestly, Wow’s raiding have several different tiers of difficulty much like fractals, however you are rewarded for the efforts and the top tier difficulty take months to complete if at all.

I kinda feel like the reason Raids we’re added was because of Wow.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Assic.2746 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Because they enjoy the game as a whole, and would enjoy having more complete access to it. They don't want to play hard mode raids, but they do want to play through that portion of the story. They don't want to play hard mode raids,

but they do want to be able to play through other parts of the game while wearing skins that can only be found there

. You don't have to understand their reasons. You don't have to empathize with their reasons. Just understand that their reasons exist, and there's nothing you can do about that, so your only options are to help, stay out of their way, or deliberately place yourself in the way of them getting what they want out of the game.

So once again it just boils down to the shinies.

It can, if that's your motivation. Certainly no harm in that, so long as you aren't trying to keep shinies away from others out of greed or spite.

@"zealex.9410" said:I can see from their main content that the majority plays and gets priority (aka lw) how much more productive they are. 3, 4 days of content every 3 months.Or fractals and how those get content so fast...

Exactly, so if more players were playing [some form of raids], then raids in general could afford more developer attention.

If they don't care for hard content, then that could only be a good thing, because they wouldn't enjoy the hard mode anyway. Nobody could be upset about that happening.

I mean sure if the unique rewards for normal mode arent available through easy mode sure. But then whats the point of it anyways.

Well that's a complete non-sequitur. It would be a purely good thing with or without the rewards being involved. In fact, it would be significantly worse if the rewards were not in both modes, because that would mean that players doing easy mode could not earn them that way.

You do the raid for the challenge or the reward and both complement each other.

If you're doing the raid for the reward, then you should not be doing the raid. They should provide an alternative. You should only have to do the raid if you want to do the raid, not because it's the only way to earn something otherwise unrelated.

No because the easy mode isnt an accurate representation of what normal mode raids are. Fractals and cms are much closer to that.

That's your opinion, and it's wrong.

The actual question is would ppl prefer playing the easy mode for much much less rewards and ofc no li or achievement credit.

They might prefer playing it, but still not do it because it wouldn't be worth the time and energy expended. You need to balance the rewards of ANY mode for it to be worth doing. I fully support balancing the rewards of BOTH easy and hard mode verses existing content, so that "is it worth the effort" is not a factor in the discussion.

Or maybe its own skin thats not the normal raid armor skin.

That still wouldn't adequately solve the issue of "how does a player with no interest in every doing the harder raid mode get those skins?" Resolving that question should be part of the point of adding easy mode.

Or you can explain them that their logic will lessen the experience of others.

Except that this isn't true. Nobody's experience would be lessened in any way, unless it A. involves forcing others to do work for their benefit, or B. taking pleasure in other people not having things that they want.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Anvil.9230" said:The game is vast...And every body can find something adapted to his capacity and desire. Finally raids are only a small part of it, dedicated to those who want more challenge...let's leave them this pleasure.

And nobody is arguing otherwise. We're just asking for something

in addition to that.

That's what you believe. Your request, however, adds nothing to the game. The essence of what you ask for already exists - instanced group content of lower difficulty. The rest what you perceive to be "an addition" is more or less cosmetic, in the sense it wears off in a fraction of the playthroughs this content is intended for. You're not arguing about a novelty. You're arguing about rewards.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Feanor.2358" said:That's what you believe. Your request, however, adds nothing to the game.

That's what you believe, "and yet it moves."

The essence of what you ask for already exists - instanced group content of lower difficulty.

"The Essence" is irrelevant. That's not what's being asked for. An apple and an orange are both fruits, but orange pie is weird.

The rest what you perceive to be "an addition" is more or less cosmetic,

Definitely, and if it's valuable enough for you to care about keeping it sequestered, then it's more than enough for me to care about making it accessible.

in the sense it wears off in a fraction of the playthroughs this content is intended for.

As is true of all content, including the existing raids.

You're not arguing about a novelty. You're arguing about rewards.

I can walk and chew gum at the same time, and both are perfectly valid causes.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:That's what you believe. Your request, however, adds nothing to the game.

That's what you believe, "and yet it moves."

Except it doesn't. The last we've heard of ANet was they have no plans of doing it. Must be reasons for that, don't you think?

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:That's what you believe. Your request, however, adds nothing to the game.

That's what you believe, "and yet it moves."

Except it doesn't. The last we've heard of ANet was they have no plans of doing it. Must be reasons for that, don't you think?

Some reason, yes, not necessarily a good one though. Remember back when they changed how the trait systems worked, and then changed them again a little while later? (and they still aren't where they really should be). Or remember how the game didn't launch with raids in the first place? You seem to be pleased they changed their mind on that one. Remember Stronghold? No? I don't blame you. They have their reasons, I just think they could have better reasons.

[Eramonster.2718]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:Easy Mode, definitely not, don't go down the path of WoWHard Mode, not too sure, there is only a very small portion of the Raid communicate find raid too easy, anet will need to find enough financial justifications to work on it; the problem is certain builds are way too OP for PvE

I see the current GW2 raid environment like vanilla WoW's Upper Blackrock Spire, good groups can breeze through it, average groups can only progress up to a certain point, bad groups get destroyed

Honestly, Wow’s raiding have several different tiers of difficulty much like fractals, however you are rewarded for the efforts and the top tier difficulty take months to complete if at all.

I kinda feel like the reason Raids we’re added was because of Wow.

Possible I guess? Not sure if that changes anything since WoW is different game(like Gw1). There, different raid tier give different tier of rewards/gear threadmill. While here, Gw2 is more into fashion than tier rewards :lol: . Imo, WoW made a mistake that can't be undone. I'll just stop here since that's about another game.

I'm just glad there is a group content like raid. No longer need to split into 2 groups while playing together with friends & guildmates to complete dungeons/fractals. Open world can be fun during leveling, but as a content it's too random to be a group/organized play. Same goes for mapping world completion (faster by soloing).

Not sure if I mentioned this before; TLDR but raid's difficulty is adequate (w1-4 at least, haven't tried the new one). If damage is further reduced while some are already being ignored, it will just be another punchbag, stack and heal gameplay. Lowering bosses HP will result mechanics to be skipped with sufficient dps.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:That's what you believe. Your request, however, adds nothing to the game.

That's what you believe, "and yet it moves."

Except it doesn't. The last we've heard of ANet was they have no plans of doing it. Must be reasons for that, don't you think?

Some reason, yes, not necessarily a good one though.

Riiiight. Business decisions made on a whim, huh? Somehow I fail to believe that.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:That's what you believe. Your request, however, adds nothing to the game.

That's what you believe, "and yet it moves."

Except it doesn't. The last we've heard of ANet was they have no plans of doing it. Must be reasons for that, don't you think?

Some reason, yes, not necessarily a good one though.

Riiiight. Business decisions made on a whim, huh? Somehow I fail to believe that.

Again, not necessarily on a whim either, just also not necessarily the right decision to make.

They thought loot boxes would be a good idea.

In fall 2017.

Loot - boxes

And then they did it again a few months later!

Never assume.

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Assic.2746 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Because they enjoy the game as a whole, and would enjoy having more complete access to it. They don't want to play hard mode raids, but they do want to play through that portion of the story. They don't want to play hard mode raids,

but they do want to be able to play through other parts of the game while wearing skins that can only be found there

. You don't have to understand their reasons. You don't have to empathize with their reasons. Just understand that their reasons exist, and there's nothing you can do about that, so your only options are to help, stay out of their way, or deliberately place yourself in the way of them getting what they want out of the game.

So once again it just boils down to the shinies.Isn't that what this thread has been about since almost the very beginning? People who want the shinies but don't want to put in any effort?

I really have to applaud people like Feanor who somehow possess the patience to constantly refute all the falsehoods that are spread here again and again. At that rate, I would have gone mad long ago.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"CptAurellian.9537" said:Isn't that what this thread has been about since almost the very beginning? People who want the shinies but don't want to put in any effort?

Not really, but that's certainly what certain people hear when they're told "We would like to earn the items through a different method." I honestly can't explain how that could happen, but it's shockingly common.

I really have to applaud people like Feanor who somehow possess the patience to constantly refute all the falsehoods that are spread here again and again. At that rate, I would have gone mad long ago.

If you'd like some advice, it might actually help speed things up if you'd actually listen to what people tell you, rather than just assume that they're saying what you want to believe they're saying.

[Eramonster.2718]

? Actually... this will go alot faster if a Boss/encounter is being put up for discussion. Why is it hard? What needs to be balanced? Feedbacks on what went wrong/ fix. The discussion will be productive and a sense of direction.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:That's what you believe. Your request, however, adds nothing to the game.

That's what you believe, "and yet it moves."

Except it doesn't. The last we've heard of ANet was they have no plans of doing it. Must be reasons for that, don't you think?

Some reason, yes, not necessarily a good one though.

Riiiight. Business decisions made on a whim, huh? Somehow I fail to believe that.

Again, not necessarily on a whim either, just also not necessarily the right decision to make.

They thought

loot boxes

would be a good idea.

In fall 2017.

Loot - boxes

And then they did it

again

a few months later!

Never

assume.

Actually loot boxes were in the game since day 1, they're called Black Lion chests. And they apparently work well enough creating sales for the game. I recall last time BL keys went on sale there was a thread on reddit with people complaining about how they know they shouldn't, but they still buy them. These aren't assumptions, these are facts.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Eramonster.2718 said:? Actually... this will go alot faster if a Boss/encounter is being put up for discussion. Why is it hard? What needs to be balanced? Feedbacks on what went wrong/ fix. The discussion will be productive and a sense of direction.

That's a more complicated question. Nobody wants the encounters changed, the existing ones are fine for those that enjoy them. The question is whether or not an easier option should exist.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:That's what you believe. Your request, however, adds nothing to the game.

That's what you believe, "and yet it moves."

Except it doesn't. The last we've heard of ANet was they have no plans of doing it. Must be reasons for that, don't you think?

Some reason, yes, not necessarily a good one though.

Riiiight. Business decisions made on a whim, huh? Somehow I fail to believe that.

Again, not necessarily on a whim either, just also not necessarily the right decision to make.

They thought

loot boxes

would be a good idea.

In fall 2017.

Loot - boxes

And then they did it

again

a few months later!

Never

assume.

Actually loot boxes were in the game since day 1, they're called Black Lion chests. And they apparently work well enough creating sales for the game. I recall last time BL keys went on sale there was a thread on reddit with people complaining about how they know they shouldn't, but they still buy them. These aren't assumptions, these are facts.

See, you don't get why the Mount Adoption License is a problem either. It just goes to show that even if people have their reasons for doing something, that's absolutely no guarantee that it's the best decision.

[Feanor.2358]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:See, you don't get why the Mount Adoption License is a problem either. It just goes to show that even if people have their reasons for doing something, that's absolutely no guarantee that it's the best decision.

I get why mount adoption licences aren't a problem. At least they aren't when compared with BL chests. All the reasoning given by the community applies to BL chests as well, except worse. Because adoption licences have a hard cap on the maximum price, BL chests don't. Yet people kept complaining again the non-issue. I honestly found the whole drama hilarious. Now that we have more adoption licenses? I'll buy the random ones again, once I get bored with my current Branded set. But ANet did give an option to buy specific skins to address some unhappy players and squeeze out more profit. Price segmentation and all that. So you see, they adapt. They experiment, they try different things, they keep what's working and they change what isn't. And yet, they have no plans to address the "issue" discussed here. Makes one wonder how much of an issue it really is. Or does it?

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:See, you don't get why the Mount Adoption License is a problem either. It just goes to show that even if people have their reasons for doing something, that's absolutely no guarantee that it's the best decision.

I get why mount adoption licences

aren't

a problem.

Which is another way of saying that you don't see the problem, like I said. So if you can be so wrong about that, who's to say you aren't wrong about easy mode raids too?

[Grogba.6204]

But an easier option exists. It is impossible to design a boss easier than Mursaat Overseer or Cairn without the encounter turning into a copy of the testgolem. Creating easy modes for the other bosses would also completely break their design patterns. What would you even want to change about them?

The Timer? The vast majority of failed attempts are hardly because the squad hit the enrage. Even full Nomads gear wouldn't help you against a lot of bosses simply because said mechanics will kill you if you don't do them.

HP Values? Every single boss in raids is designed with HP thresholds in mind. Take a look at videos of the best raiding guilds and you can see how hilariously broken class DPS is. Certain bosses like Xera turn into a tank and spank boss because the DPS prevents her skript from using one of her deadlier attacks. Reducing Boss HP wouldn't change a thing either, only the DPS necessary to skip certain phases would be lowered but again, the encounter will kill you if you ignore the mechanics. Likewise nerfing player DPS would neither improve raids for most players nor would it decrease perceived toxicity. Pug squads would end up even more toxic as a result since players would actually need to play more efficiently than now.

Encounter Mechanics? These are for the most part "on"/"off", so to speak. Either you do them correctly and get rewarded (not taking dmg, beating a boss) or you fail them and pay, sometimes with a wipe (allowing one of the spirits at Gorseval to be consumed, reaching 100 stacks at Xera/Cairn, standing in a wrong tile at MO, etc.)Removing them is also not an option. Removing just one mechanic or changing one part of the equation that makes up a boss completely changes the encounter.

And let me say this again, it is hard to come up with an encounter design easier than Mursaat Overseer or Cairn. It is certainly possible to design encounters on a similar difficulty level in the same way it is possible to create something harder than Dhuum CM. The biggest problem of this thread, however, is a false perception of raids in the first place. We can argue that some mechanics are extremely unforgiving (Dhuum greens), others plain stupid (Deimos hands) or not working correctly (Samarog's spear pull in normal mode) but saying "We need easy mode plox!!1" without going into detail what you think is too hard is neither constructive nor will it ever lead anywhere.Ultimately because your perception or preconceived opinion about the content will clash with the experience and data of those who regularly play it.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Tyson.5160 said:I kinda feel like the reason Raids we’re added was because of Wow.

No, it was because a certain player base (me included) were bored as hell because we like/love the game but only had content that was too easy and of course for some people without any carrot to run after and therefore not fun to repeat it any longer.This player base was (and still is) one of the most active ones and was always looking for contact and communication with Anet.

---

19 pages in this thread, lots of others in previous threads. Ohoni would already have finished all three legendary armors by now + probably made some more good friends along the way if he stopped wasting his time on arguing in a forum.I have some guild mates I would rank worse in terms of Ohoni's skill and even them have finished a set by now without having to deal with elitism or hitting their head against raid bosses over and over again because today we have the best tactics available.People overestimate raid difficulty completely. Of course you don't start with Sabetha, Matt, Xera or Deimos. Commence with Escort - some open world events/metas are harder to organize and to play than that.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:See, you don't get why the Mount Adoption License is a problem either. It just goes to show that even if people have their reasons for doing something, that's absolutely no guarantee that it's the best decision.

I get why mount adoption licences

aren't

a problem.

Which is another way of saying that you don't see the problem

It would be another way of saying that had I not given argumentation. I, however, did. It is very sweet of you to try and dismiss valid points as mere opinions, but I'm not buying such cheap tricks.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:See, you don't get why the Mount Adoption License is a problem either. It just goes to show that even if people have their reasons for doing something, that's absolutely no guarantee that it's the best decision.

I get why mount adoption licences

aren't

a problem.

Which is another way of saying that you don't see the problem

It would be another way of saying that had I not given argumentation. I, however, did. It is very sweet of you to try and dismiss valid points as mere opinions, but I'm not buying such cheap tricks.

Ok.

[Hume.2876]

Leave the crappy design to WoW. We have easy raids in this game - its called bounties, and world bosses? Crappier rewards? Yup. Easier Yup.

If you go with hard/easy raids you end up with players bored of the content. They feel compelled to do both and they get bored to hell. I know. I played WoW extensively. They had this anti-elitist idea and it hurt their game. You want aspirational content. You want people who want to raid 'someday' but don't get around to it.. When they do a pickup raid or something with the guild - some raid training or whatever it will feel 'special'.

Be careful what you wish for. Players are not game designers - when designers let them act like one - their game goes to crap.

[zealex.9410]

@Eramonster.2718 said:? Actually... this will go alot faster if a Boss/encounter is being put up for discussion. Why is it hard? What needs to be balanced? Feedbacks on what went wrong/ fix. The discussion will be productive and a sense of direction.

Base gw2 went wrong.

[zealex.9410]

@"Hume.2876" said:Leave the crappy design to WoW. We have easy raids in this game - its called bounties, and world bosses? Crappier rewards? Yup. Easier Yup.

If you go with hard/easy raids you end up with players bored of the content. They feel compelled to do both and they get bored to hell. I know. I played WoW extensively. They had this anti-elitist idea and it hurt their game. You want aspirational content. You want people who want to raid 'someday' but don't get around to it.. When they do a pickup raid or something with the guild - some raid training or whatever it will feel 'special'.

Be careful what you wish for. Players are not game designers - when designers let them act like one - their game goes to crap.

"crappier rewards? yup." thats the issue with according to some ppl.

[Sephylon.4938]

@"Eramonster.2718" said:? Actually... this will go alot faster if a Boss/encounter is being put up for discussion. Why is it hard? What needs to be balanced? Feedbacks on what went wrong/ fix. The discussion will be productive and a sense of direction.

That's been asked before and the only responses that have ever come up to that question was: "nerf boss hp+damage and make 1 shot mechanics not 1 shot".VG - Turns into a dps golem, only threat here was the 1 shots that happen when you fail its mechanics.Gorz - Turns into a dps golem, only threat here was the 1 shots that happen when you fail its mechanics.Sab - Turns into a dps golem, only threat here was the 1 shots that happen when you fail its mechanics. Additionally, if dps check becomes too low that the group can ignore cannons, nothing will be learned that will prepare anyone doing this for normal mode.Sloth - Nothing of relevance changes, damage from this encounter doesn't come from the boss but from the mechanics.Trio - Nothing of relevance changes, damage from this encounter doesn't come from the boss but from the mechanics.Mat - Nothing of relevance changes, damage from this encounter doesn't come from the boss but from the mechanics.Escort - Non mobile giant red circles becomes not deadly, yay.KC - Turns into a dps golem, only threat here was the 1 shots that happen when you fail any of its mechanics.Xera - Nothing of relevance changes, damage from this encounter doesn't come from the boss but from the mechanics. (unless you're the tank or someone who thinks/acts like they're the tank)I'm not too experienced with wing 5 to comment on them so if anyone more learned than I would like to say how lowered boss dps+hp, and the removal of 1 shot mechanics would affect them, I'd appreciate it.

Back on topic; how exactly would easy mode of these bosses look like then with these bosses given what I've said? Are those bosses that now lack 1 shot mechanics supposed to just be dps golems? How would the new mechanics function with the intent of teaching them how to do normal mode? What rewards would it give and how much, would the bosses that are now essentially dps golems that hit back (with the intensity of a wet noodle) still give 2g per kill+random exotics+asc weapons, acc, and armor+magnatites+etc? Would killing easy mode bosses count towards the leg armor achievements? Would they drop the collection items for said achievements?

I'd still much rather see anet focus their resources on balancing pvp/wvw so people would stop crying for nerfs to necro (which eventually bleed into pve, hello .5 sec arming time for sades), fixing the mystic forge so I can stat swap my breathers (or making helmets count uw), updating uw combat (or land spears), and working on class balance (make scourge an actual support spec with proper heals (not just a transfusion spam), ton-o boons, and useful unique buffs, or drag druid, chrono, and all other support classes to our level). And no, I will not give up anything for these, necros have already given up too much and gained so little in return. Slight bias as a necro main, just a slight