Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Catchyfx.5768 said:IT Will be the same like fractals. Ppl not learning mechanics because they can Survive this And that.Of course. But the example we already have will always be ignored by the easymode crowd.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:Follow up question. For experienced players, how exactly would doing normal mode take less time than easy mode?They'd receive more time-gated resources per week.

You realize these are already irrelevant for active raiders, don't you? I have over 10k magnetite shards and no real use for them. What difference does it make if I get more or less of them?In that case, if the rewards aren't a factor to you, there won't be a point to do easy mode at all, right? If you don't care easy mode gives rewards in less quantities (because you already have too much of them), then why would you want to do easy mode encounters at all, unless you simply didn't want to experience the normal mode?(remember, the "less time" question was about reward acquisition speed, not boss kill speed)

Because there are other rewards too - exotics, ascended, gold, etc.Well, obviously those in quantity would be different as well. It's not like anyone ever suggested that both normal and easy mode should have identical rewards in both quality and quantity. And to prevent encouraging people to do both modes to maximize drops (which might cause too much pressure), we could borrow the idea from fractals and make the normal mode award both rewards.

[Sephylon.4938]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:Follow up question. For experienced players, how exactly would doing normal mode take less time than easy mode?They'd receive more time-gated resources per week.

You realize these are already irrelevant for active raiders, don't you? I have over 10k magnetite shards and no real use for them. What difference does it make if I get more or less of them?In that case, if the rewards aren't a factor to you, there won't be a point to do easy mode at all, right? If you don't care easy mode gives rewards in less quantities (because you already have too much of them), then why would you want to do easy mode encounters at all, unless you simply didn't want to experience the normal mode?(remember, the "less time" question was about reward acquisition speed, not boss kill speed)

Because there are other rewards too - exotics, ascended, gold, etc.Well, obviously those in quantity would be different as well. It's not like anyone ever suggested that both normal and easy mode should have identical rewards in both quality and quantity. And to prevent encouraging people to do both modes to maximize drops (which might cause too much pressure), we could borrow the idea from fractals and make the normal mode award both rewards.

The point is valid, however I believe we should first look at how the encounter should play then talk about the rewards as per the difficulty of said encounter. If the encounter is too easy and rewards too much, we will essentially be an on launch day istan v2.0 and will drastically be nerfed. Too liitle rewards, irregardless of ease, and we have another dungeon scenario.

Might I ask a question of you:Ohoni and I have begun a discussion of how and what an easy mode VG would look like. How would you make an easy mode vg play, look, and feel?

editSpeaking of,

Ohoni, I apologize for not addressing your points prior to how easy mode vg should play like, but I believe that it was more important. I will get to the rest of the response when I have more time.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:Follow up question. For experienced players, how exactly would doing normal mode take less time than easy mode?They'd receive more time-gated resources per week.

You realize these are already irrelevant for active raiders, don't you? I have over 10k magnetite shards and no real use for them. What difference does it make if I get more or less of them?In that case, if the rewards aren't a factor to you, there won't be a point to do easy mode at all, right? If you don't care easy mode gives rewards in less quantities (because you already have too much of them), then why would you want to do easy mode encounters at all, unless you simply didn't want to experience the normal mode?(remember, the "less time" question was about reward acquisition speed, not boss kill speed)

Because there are other rewards too - exotics, ascended, gold, etc.Well, obviously those in quantity would be different as well. It's not like anyone ever suggested that both normal and easy mode should have identical rewards in both quality and quantity. And to prevent encouraging people to do both modes to maximize drops (which might cause too much pressure), we could borrow the idea from fractals and make the normal mode award both rewards.

Do you think there would be enough players interested in this mode, under these assumptions? Enough to justify the development time and balance out the complaints about delaying the new releases?

[Grogba.6204]

@belognom.3685 said:You are missing my point. If I needed raid clearance I would buy it like ummmh, when i need my place cleaned I hire a cleaner, that agrees to do that job for me for that time and that money.I don't need raid clearance. I want to clear a raid.

No, you are missing everyones point. You want to clear a raid? Look for a raiding guild/squad/group. Take initiative and just. do. the. content.The challenge is part of the experience, if you cannot grasp that than I am not sure if raids are suited for you in the first place.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Sephylon.4938 said:Might I ask a question of you:Ohoni and I have begun a discussion of how and what an easy mode VG would look like. How would you make an easy mode vg play, look, and feel?Sure. I'll give it a shot.

First (and it's kind of important): it's better if the timing of mechanics weren't changed at all, and remained the same as in normal mode. Otherwise a change between modes might significantly throw people off.

Boss hp: could probably get a slight reduce (but, depending on other changes it might not be really necessary). Same with coloured mini-guardians. That is a general knob that can finetune all other changes, but shouldn't be used as a primary method.

Greens: leave the damage as it is, but reduce it by 25% per each person in the circle (so 100% damage when noone is at circle, 75% when one person is, down to 0% when 4 or more players are in), instead of it being binary 100% fail or succeed as it is in normal.

Seekers: cut down on aura damage (not too hard, they still need to make people want to avoid them). Maybe slow them down as well.

blues: hardest to adjust. The best would be to make them really visible, but i'm not sure how we could do that (maybe the vivid filling-in orange circles, that show timing, instead of the usual blue ones). Another option would be to cut down on teleportation range (either by limiting range, or by allowing teleportation only within the single section). If we're not touching range, then cut down on pop damage (hard).

cut down on floor damage (again, not too hard), but otherwise leave damaging floors as they are (1 on 2nd phase, 2 on third, same speed).

reduce the damage from the cc phase, maybe reduce the cc bar a bit.

you can leave the split guardians as they are (apart from the abovementioned changes to seekers, blues and greens - with the last one adjusted for 3 people, not four, so 33% damage reduction per person).

Also possibly add a visible fixate marker, so the groups that go in with random gear will see immediately should the VG aggro at someone else than a designated tank.

@Feanor.2358 said:Do you think there would be enough players interested in this mode, under these assumptions? Enough to justify the development time and balance out the complaints about delaying the new releases?Yes, obviously. I wouldn't be suggesting it otherwise, would i?Yes, i do assume that many of the easymode players would move up to normal mode eventually, because of the greater rewards. Players that would not go there otherwise.And it's not because easy mode would offer them place to learn (although that factor cannot be ignored). It's because it would offer them place to become familiar with raids in an evironment that wouldn't be as scary to them as current raids are.And no, training guilds can't really serve that function. They may offer you an environment of friendly and helpful people (if you're lucky, it does vary), but they are still people that are teaching you to swim by throwing you deep into the rapids. Shark-filled rapids.And, before you say that, Fractals cannot serve that function either. They are too different for that - in them you can at best become familar with fractals.

[Sephylon.4938]

Greens: leave the damage as it is, but reduce it by 25% per each person in the circle (so 100% damage when noone is at circle, 75% when one person is, down to 0% when 4 >or more players are in), instead of it being binary 100% fail or succeed as it is in normal.umm, greens already work like that.

Seekers: cut down on aura damage (not too hard, they still need to make people want to avoid them). Maybe slow them down as well.are we speaking damage or radius? Personally I'd prefer reducing the radius and keeping all others the same. As for the speed, reducing it any further would make them slower than a reaper.

blues: hardest to adjust. The best would be to make them really visible, but i'm not sure how we could do that (maybe the vivid filling-in orange circles, that show timing, >instead of the usual blue ones). Another option would be to cut down on teleportation range (either by limiting range, or by allowing teleportation only within the single >section). If we're not touching range, then cut down on pop damage (hard).agreed, but the only thing I can think of to fix this would be to allow us to turn off visiual effects of other players to reduce the visual clutter.

cut down on floor damage (again, not too hard), but otherwise leave damaging floors as they are (1 on 2nd phase, 2 on third, same speed).My fear for this is that it would teach people that they can just stack healers to outright ignore the lit floors.

reduce the damage from the cc phase, maybe reduce the cc bar a bit.I actually forgot about this one in my proposal. Your proposal sounds fair. Another option might be to reduce the number of obs vg releases instead of reducing the damage. I would want normal mode to have as sharp a fang as normal, but slower at closing, and much slower at following up.

you can leave the split guardians as they are (apart from the aforementioned changes to seekers, blues and greens - with the last one adjusted for 3 people, not four, so >3% damage reduction per person).we could have the green guardian only be damaged by heals XD. Jokes aside agreed.

Also possibly add a visible fixate marker, so the groups that go in with random gear will see immediately should the VG aggro at someone else than a designated tank.I like this one.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Sephylon.4938" said:

Greens: leave the damage as it is, but reduce it by 25% per each person in the circle (so 100% damage when noone is at circle, 75% when one person is, down to 0% when 4 >or more players are in), instead of it being binary 100% fail or succeed as it is in normal.umm, greens already work like that.Nope, now it's all or nothing. You're short one person, and attack hits for full damage (notice, "full damage" is not automatic oneshot. They hit for 80 or 90% - not sure - of the players full hps, so if you're fully healed you will survive, which is how the overheal tactics work)

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sephylon.4938 said:That's a fair assessment, but I believe that this way would teach the basics with a wider margin of error, while still having fangs sharp enough to punish people should they fail.

That's the disconnect though. Hard mode is already about "punishing people when they fail." That is not a goal in easy mode. Easy mode has no interest in punishing failure. It lets people know that they failed a mechanic, so that they can use that feedback to improve, but it leaves the punishment up to the player, it does not impose punishments for failures, unless such failures pile up to a degree that shows that they aren't even paying attention.

I do not believe that damage in and of itself is enough of a deterrent for people since you do not need to have full hp all the time.

Again, it's not about punishment, it's not about "deterrence," it's about feedback. Damage allows you to know that a mistake has occurred, and that's all the mode needs to communicate. If you then heal that damage back up? Great. Working as intended.

Also, I personally believe that it is impossible to avoid damage even if you are playing at 100% efficiency, as there are several factors in the game that come into play.

Perhaps, but as you played easy mode you would get used to the varying amounts of damage you could personally expect. Maybe you would expect to always be at 80-90% HP due to persistent chip damage, but if an attack dropped you to 30%, you'd notice that (if you paid attention to such things, and if not, that's your own business).

Finally, I feel that if damage is too low, then the presence of healers, and to that extent people who like to play them, would not be needed as all classes already have multiple ways to sustain themselves.

And that would be fine. Remember, this mode is optimized for completely random, casual pugs, it's not designed to require dedicated healers, although they can certainly help to keep things moving smoothly.

The green circles being as they are may be too hard for some people with low spacial awareness, which is why I wanted to increase its radius while reducing the number of required people. That way, the green would become more noticeable, even to those who get tunnel-visioned into dpsing the boss.

I feel like that is an issue with the core mechanic itself, that should maybe be changed in both modes. If it's much easier to handle those circles in easy mode, then it would give players a false sense of security, "oh, we've got this, we get them every time!" that would not translate to hard mode. On the other hand, if the mechanics were identical, just with less damage, then players would know "ok, we cleared that one, but we missed three of the green circles and took damage. We have to do better if we want to be good enough for hard mode."

Additionally, the larger radius and longer detonation time would allow for a wider margin of error by offering a smaller distance to travel, and a longer time to get there before failure, which would still result in a wipe. This would allow for people to learn that they have to do it and give them personal responsibility.

But, again, that is not a goal of easy mode. Easy mode is not hard mode.

For the orb phase, please correct me if I misunderstand, but you want it to deal less damage, and last shorter? The phrasing is a bit weird for me, I apologize. Also who is "he" that you refer to, the players, vg, or the orb, I did not want to assume.

Ok, my understanding of the fight is mostly second hand, so I understand that others could probably resolve this better than me, but my understanding is that his orbs do a lot of damage, but can already be tanked by a tanky enough party, and that at one point there was a strategy involving just keeping him in this state because it was less hassle than his other mechanics. I'm suggesting that a way to tweak this for easy mode would be to make it easier to tank through, but at the same time make it either impossible or undesirable to sustain this phase indefinitely, perhaps by making VG tankier during it, so that players would have incentive to get him out quickly and get back to faster DPS. The desired goal here is basically just to make it less likely to wipe a casual pug than the current one could be.

I feel that if the damage of the pie slices would be lowered, that any 2 healers would be more than enough to allow people to just power through it. Again, I do not believe that damage with no risk of downing is enough of a threat to people.

Working as intended.

Ohoni, I apologize for not addressing your points prior to how easy mode vg should play like, but I believe that it was more important. I will get to the rest of the response when I have more time.

Ok.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:Follow up question. For experienced players, how exactly would doing normal mode take less time than easy mode?They'd receive more time-gated resources per week.

You realize these are already irrelevant for active raiders, don't you? I have over 10k magnetite shards and no real use for them. What difference does it make if I get more or less of them?

Then why do you care what rewards easy mode offers, if the rewards of hard mode are already irrelevant to you? The whole point of this is to make it so that if you are chasing the rewards, you would view the rewards from easy mode as not being as desirable as those from hard, so that if you wanted to do hard mode, you would feel justifiably rewarded for doing so, without easy mode being complete trash.

Because there are other rewards too - exotics, ascended, gold, etc.

Which easy mode would offer less of (or hard mode would offer more than it currently does, or both).

@Feanor.2358 said:Do you think there would be enough players interested in this mode, under these assumptions? Enough to justify the development time and balance out the complaints about delaying the new releases?

Yes.

[Sephylon.4938]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:That's a fair assessment, but I believe that this way would teach the basics with a wider margin of error, while still having fangs sharp enough to punish people should they fail.

That's the disconnect though. Hard mode is already about "punishing people when they fail." That is

not

a goal in easy mode. Easy mode has no interest in punishing failure. It lets people

know

that they failed a mechanic, so that they can use that feedback to improve, but it leaves the punishment up to the player, it does not impose punishments for failures, unless such failures pile up to a degree that shows that they aren't even paying attention.I believe I'm going about this the wrong way, let me try this way. How much HP are we talking about, and is it enough in the presence of healers, self-heals, and self-sustaining traits?

I do not believe that damage in and of itself is enough of a deterrent for people since you do not need to have full hp all the time.Again, it's not about punishment, it's not about "deterrence," it's about feedback. Damage allows you to

know

that a mistake has occurred, and that's all the mode needs >to communicate. If you then heal that damage back up? Great. Working as intended.Perhaps, but as you played easy mode you would get used to the varying amounts of damage you could personally expect. Maybe you would expect to always be at >80-90% HP due to persistent chip damage, but if an attack dropped you to 30%, you'd notice that (if you paid attention to such things, and if not, that's your own >business).In open world I generally do not notice my hp bar unless I'm at the 10% or less threshold, therefore I do not believe that anything short of that would allow a person to know that they've made a mistake. What if instead of hp, we turn it into something else that would allow a person to know they've made a mistake, something like spawning extra adds perhaps? Or something similar to how vg works in bloodstone?

Finally, I feel that if damage is too low, then the presence of healers, and to that extent people who like to play them, would not be needed as all classes already have multiple ways to sustain themselves.And that would be fine. Remember, this mode is optimized for completely random, casual pugs, it's not designed to require dedicated healers, although they can certainly help to keep things moving smoothly.That assumes that they would not look for ways to allow them to do this easily does it not?

The green circles being as they are may be too hard for some people with low spacial awareness, which is why I wanted to increase its radius while reducing the number of required people. That way, the green would become more noticeable, even to those who get tunnel-visioned into dpsing the boss.I feel like that is an issue with the core mechanic itself, that should maybe be changed in both modes. If it's much easier to handle those circles in easy mode, then it would give players a false sense of security, "oh, we've got this, we get them every time!" that would not translate to hard mode. On the other hand, if the mechanics were identical, just with less damage, then players would know "ok, we cleared that one, but we missed three of the green circles and took damage. We have to do better if we want to be good enough for hard mode."

I personally believe that players who have gotten used to doing it that way would more than likely be able to adopt their acquired skills into easy mode, especially since they've been conditioned to notice green circles.

Additionally, the larger radius and longer detonation time would allow for a wider margin of error by offering a smaller distance to travel, and a longer time to get there before failure, which would still result in a wipe. This would allow for people to learn that they have to do it and give them personal responsibility.But, again, that is not a goal of easy mode. Easy mode is not hard mode.Fair enough.

For the orb phase, please correct me if I misunderstand, but you want it to deal less damage, and last shorter? The phrasing is a bit weird for me, I apologize. Also who is "he" that you refer to, the players, vg, or the orb, I did not want to assume.Ok, my understanding of the fight is mostly second hand, so I understand that others could probably resolve this better than me, but my understanding is that his orbs do a lot of damage, but can already be tanked by a tanky enough party, and that at one point there was a strategy involving just keeping him in this state because it was less hassle than his other mechanics. I'm suggesting that a way to tweak this for easy mode would be to make it

easier

to tank through, but at the same time make it either impossible or undesirable to sustain this phase indefinitely, perhaps by making VG tankier during it, so that players would have incentive to get him out quickly and get back to faster DPS. The desired goal here is basically just to make it less likely to wipe a casual pug than the current one could be.

Are you perhaps referring to the red guardian or VG? if it's the former then the phase lasts until it dies, lowered hp would make this easier and damage from the guardian itself is easily sustained even in glass gear. If it's the later, then the red circles spawn indefinitely through out the fight and isn't a phase.

I feel that if the damage of the pie slices would be lowered, that any 2 healers would be more than enough to allow people to just power through it. Again, I do not believe that damage with no risk of downing is enough of a threat to people.Working as intended.if you say so.

[Talindra.4958]

Crystal Reid dev responded once on this topic..https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/113984#Comment_113984

[Talindra.4958]

@"Crystal Reid.2481" said:We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective. Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

"Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? "

We can make li and kp go straight into wallet so it isn't item to link.

We can also make auto match search LFG system for raids where players input or tick/select their ready available search requirements, players with such requirements can join (similar to fractal tier where players won't be able to join higher tier not unless they progressed).

Provide additional reward to such LFG search that elect for lower requitement.. eg LFG for higher requirement gets normal reward however.

We can make special reward for only selected wings on weekly rotation and repeating it in lower requirements group gives reward so to encourage vet to join others and get rewarded for joining lower requirements group.

Toughen up on punishment in bad attitude players.. similar to dishonor buff in PvP that restrict player from doing raid for set hours... A few dishonors result in tougher punishment etc.

Its just a few thoughts

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Sephylon.4938" said:I believe I'm going about this the wrong way, let me try this way. How much HP are we talking about, and is it enough in the presence of healers, self-heals, and self-sustaining traits?

Getting into numerical specifics is tricky, I can't throw out a number and expect it to work. What I'm saying is a sort of "outcome goal," the outcome being that players would be unlikely to wipe completely if they miss green circles or stand in the "bad slices" too long, that it's possible that it will result in glassier or already injured players going down, but that tanky characters would survive it, and aggressive healing could mitigate it. Remember, the goal is that most random pug teams would be able to clear the encounter on their first or second attempt, it is not meant to be challenging to complete, it's meant, at most, to be challenging to perfect. Basically, whatever they tune it at, if people are attempting to complete it and yet still dropping left and right, then they need to keep tuning it down.

In open world I generally do not notice my hp bar unless I'm at the 10% or less threshold, therefore I do not believe that anything short of that would allow a person to know that they've made a mistake.

Ok, but if someone is paying attention, because they want to know how they are doing, then it is a factor.

What if instead of hp, we turn it into something else that would allow a person to know they've made a mistake, something like spawning extra adds perhaps? Or something similar to how vg works in bloodstone?

But see, that would change the encounter itself. That would make it a different encounter, and therefore teach different skills. The point is to try and not change anything at all, other than the degree of negative outcome. You seem to be looking at this as "how can we make this still difficult, but in a completely different way." Reducing the difficulty is the point of the exercise.

That assumes that they would not look for ways to allow them to do this easily does it not?

Again if they choose to go for "the easiest way possible," then that's great, that's working as intended. They are not taking advantage of the system, the system is designed for that to be their choice. It leaves it up to player responsibility as to whether they want to casually clear easy mode in the fastest and safest way possible (even if those tactics would never work in hard mode), OR whether they intend to use it as a training mode for hard mode, and only employ tactics that are known to be viable in hard mode.

It is left to the players to decide.

If they choose to take advantage of every option available to make it as easy as possible, then they will clear easy mode in relative safety, but will not learn a lot about how to improve their hard mode performance. If they choose to use easy mode for training purposes, then it will mean deliberately avoiding certain options available to them, but it would give them a good feel for how to play hard mode if they do. Up to them, neither way is "wrong."

Are you perhaps referring to the red guardian or VG?

I was talking about the phase where he moves to the center and starts raining death until you knock him out of that phase.

[Sephylon.4938]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:I believe I'm going about this the wrong way, let me try this way. How much HP are we talking about, and is it enough in the presence of healers, self-heals, and self-sustaining traits?

Getting into numerical specifics is tricky, I can't throw out a number and expect it to work. What I'm saying is a sort of "outcome goal," the outcome being that players would be unlikely to wipe completely if they miss green circles or stand in the "bad slices" too long, that it's possible that it will result in glassier or already injured players going down, but that tanky characters would survive it, and aggressive healing could mitigate it. Remember, the goal is that

most

random pug teams would be able to clear the encounter on their first or second attempt, it is

not

meant to be challenging to complete, it's meant, at most, to be challenging to

perfect.

Basically, whatever they tune it at, if people are attempting to complete it and yet still dropping left and right, then they need to keep tuning it down.

But see, that would change the encounter itself. That would make it a different encounter, and therefore teach different skills. The point is to try and not change anything at all, other than the degree of negative outcome. You seem to be looking at this as "how can we make this still difficult, but in a completely different way." Reducing the difficulty is the

point

of the exercise.

I'd prefer the goal of making mechanics almost impossible to miss/fail at while still retaining the threat of a wipe. That way the threat of failure is still present, thus necessitate that people do them instead of ignoring them and powering through, but it will be substantially harder to fail. Therefore people will learn the basics of the mechanics. IMO an instance with no fangs will just lead to an experience similar to the zaithan finale.

In open world I generally do not notice my hp bar unless I'm at the 10% or less threshold, therefore I do not believe that anything short of that would allow a person to know that they've made a mistake.

Ok, but if someone

is

paying attention, because they want to know how they are doing, then it is a factor.

Then the question is how many do pay attention

That assumes that they would not look for ways to allow them to do this easily does it not?

Again if they

choose

to go for "the easiest way possible," then that's great, that's working as intended. They are not taking advantage of the system, the system is designed for that to be their choice. It leaves it up to player responsibility as to whether they want to casually clear easy mode in the fastest and safest way possible (even if those tactics would never work in hard mode), OR whether they intend to use it as a training mode for hard mode, and only employ tactics that are known to be viable in hard mode.It is left to the players to decide. If they

choose

to take advantage of every option available to make it as easy as possible, then they will clear easy mode in relative safety, but will not learn a lot about how to improve their hard mode performance. If they choose to use easy mode for training purposes, then it will mean deliberately avoiding certain options available to them, but it would give them a good feel for how to play hard mode if they do.

Up to them, neither way is "wrong."

Fair enough.

Are you perhaps referring to the red guardian or VG?

I was talking about the phase where he moves to the center and starts raining death until you knock him out of that phase.

VG doesn't do that to my knowledge. The only time it goes to the center is to split to the 3 guardians. Raining death is something it does at random after successfully passing the first split phase. I've voiced some ideas about what can be done with this in response to Astralporing.

[Sephylon.4938]

The boss's damage would be no less of a factor than 99% of the content in the game. I know that raiders tend to give that content a lot of side-eye, but it seems to satisfy most of the game's players, and that's the target audience of this mode. And if you don't notice having chunks of health missing if you aren't actually downed, that's fine, you do you, but to a player who's looking to maximize his efficiency, taking damage, even nonlethal damage, is an indicator that he's missed a trick.

But that’s just it. You aren’t taking damage from the boss as it’s agro, and there for all of its dps, is directed towards the tank. The boss’ damage to the group is a non factor in terms of vg. Damage in that boss fight comes from the bullet hell, magic aura, seeker orbs, and teleport circles. Very rarely will vg ever hit a non tank player except when they purposefully stand in front of it. This, of course, is in reference to only vg. Other bosses may have similar agro mechanics, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Definitely, and that's intended. It's not meant to be an "urgent" mode. If you want urgency, you play hard mode. This is a mode for people who don't want urgency.

Wouldn’t that lead to 10 people that are just hitting a boss and ignoring mechanics then? Wouldn’t that be far too easy even compared to world bosses? Even the shadow behemoth asks you to do some mechanics does it not?

It might be lowered, it really depends on how big a change the mechanics changes would make. The kill times would be a bit lower for the easy modes, but they certainly wouldn't be like two minutes or anything, the balance goal would be for a standard team to take about the same time per boss, maybe one of the teams that can speedrun the existing bosses could halve their times, but that wouldn't be the average player experience. Besides, with weekly lockouts, you'd have to wait a week to do it again anyway, so which would you prefer, 40Mag and 4 LI per month per boss, or 13Mag 1.3 LI per month per boss? Up to you, I guess. Really if they removed the enrage timers and other similar "time limits" on the boss fights, I wouldn't mind if they balanced the easy mode to take longer on average, like 15-20 minutes on VG. That might be a fair compromise. Lowered chance of a wipe, but it takes longer to wear them down (or at least just as long in terms of balance, longer due to less Zerk gear).

Might I bring to your attention that one can easily purchase an instance opener for 5g and redo the entire instance multiple times in a week; the weekly lockout has never stopped anyone from doing the same boss multiple times in the same week. Assuming that the 5g was split between the 10 players, and that the gold reward of the instance remains the same, it’s a net gain for the group.

Sorry for double post, had to split this

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Sephylon.4938" said:I'd prefer the goal of making mechanics almost impossible to miss/fail at while still retaining the threat of a wipe. That way the threat of failure is still present, thus necessitate that people do them instead of ignoring them and powering through, but it will be substantially harder to fail. Therefore people will learn the basics of the mechanics. IMO an instance with no fangs will just lead to an experience similar to the zaithan finale.

Well, I mean, there are basically two ways to do it, force players to attempt the mechanics, but make them so easy that it's very difficult to fail them, which would make it practically useless as training for the real thing, OR allow players to ignore them, because ignoring them isn't likely to cause failure, but at the same time make them just as difficult to succeed at as the real thing, and reward success at them, by allowing for a faster and cleaner event completion. I just think that the second one is better, I don't see the virtue in requiring players to do the mechanics, especially if they are dumbed down to the point where they are effortless to complete, and training people to be able to complete those dumbed down mechanics would be worth practically nothing when they attempt the real thing. It's basically like Wiffle T-Ball compared to baseball.

There would be some "fang" to the event, I mean failure would be possible, and slacking off would lead to much longer cleartimes, but it would be like most other content in the game, where outright failure is unlikely.

Then the question is how many do pay attention

Whatever the answer to that question is, it's "enough." I mean, that's the point, It's presented as a tool to those that want to use it, if that turns out to be "everyone?" Fine. If that turns out to be "no one?" Also fine. My guess is it'd be closer to around 10-20%, but more or less than that? Also fine. The point is not to force anyone into doing anything they don't want to do, it's to provide options, and allow players to choose what they want.

Fair enough.

Stangely, I believe this makes you the first raider to actually understand that point. Usually I have to go back and forth a few pages before they eventually give up trying to understand. It's like trying to describe color to a blind person sometimes.

But that’s just it. You aren’t taking damage from the boss as it’s agro, and there for all of its dps, is directed towards the tank. The boss’ damage to the group is a non factor in terms of vg. Damage in that boss fight comes from the bullet hell, magic aura, seeker orbs, and teleport circles. Very rarely will vg ever hit a non tank player except when they purposefully stand in front of it. This, of course, is in reference to only vg. Other bosses may have similar agro mechanics, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there.

Well, yes, but remember that we're also talking about removing a lot of "auto-kill/auto-down" mechanics and replacing them with "decent chunk of damage" mechanics. If you're running around at full health, and suddenly you're at 30%, then someone missed a green circle, and maybe that was you. If you seem to be taking more damage than you expected, maybe a red orb has wandered too close. A really good raid team gets to the point where they can ignore these things, because someone is taking care of them, but to a team using easy mode for training, this damage is a diagnostic aid.

Wouldn’t that lead to 10 people that are just hitting a boss and ignoring mechanics then? Wouldn’t that be far too easy even compared to world bosses? Even the shadow behemoth asks you to do some mechanics does it not?

It might lead to that, particularly on certain bosses. Shadow Behemoth really doesn't have much in the way of mechanics. I forget what the original version was even like, but the modern version is "1. stand in a circle and attack as best you can for twenty seconds. 2. move in a circle around him and destroy 13 portals to stop him being invincible. If you do choose to wait for others to do this, then you might want to avoid some AoE circles, but chances are they won't kill you and someone can rez you. 3 Repeat." There are a lot of world boss fights that have interesting mechanics to them, like Golem MKII or Claw of Jormag, but there are also plenty of ways to circumvent these mechanics to just stack and shoot if you prefer. I say leave it up to the players how much they care to engage with the mechanics.

Might I bring to your attention that one can easily purchase an instance opener for 5g and redo the entire instance multiple times in a week; the weekly lockout has never stopped anyone from doing the same boss multiple times in the same week. Assuming that the 5g was split between the 10 players, and that the gold reward of the instance remains the same, it’s a net gain for the group.

Well, there are plenty of ways to resolve this though. I mean, for the more "unique" rewards, they could be capped as we discussed earlier, so you couldn't use this method to earn maximum rewards any faster. Second, perhaps they could even tie more of the direct rewards to an achievement track or something, a method that would be easier to hardlock to only once per week, no loopholes. Like maybe there could be enough rewards that doing the easy mode X times per week would be a good use of your time, but beyond that the rewards cap out in a way that makes further repetition pointless. The goal is to make people want to play this, but not to make it some sort of infinite farm. Honestly, I think it would probably be better for raids as a whole if they removed the "sneak into someone else's copy" loophole in both modes. Let people do it if they want, but have the rewards capped on a per account basis, so even if you did sneak into someone else's instance, you could help them out, but not get a reward for it.

Anyway, if players could sneak into other players' instances of easy mode to repeat it for reward, why would they do that instead of sneaking into hard mode matches and doing the same? Assuming they were capable of doing both, the hard mode would be more rewarding each repetition.

And after I posted that, further discussion with someone else led me to the conclusion that the easy mode wouldn't have to be any faster than the hard mode, keep the boss HP the same, or even higher, so that the actual clear times would be equal to or even higher than the hard modes. So long as they don't have enrage mode or auto-fail conditions after a time limit, what would it matter if easy mode took 150% as long, on average, to complete? That would both reward players on normal mode, since once they got it down they could clear faster, and reward easy mode players for playing harder than absolutely necessary, since doing easy mode VG "right" you could kill him in around 10 minutes, but if you play lazy and ignore mechanics too often, you might still clear it, but it might take twenty minutes instead.

[TexZero.7910]

@Talindra.4958 said:We can also make auto match search LFG system for raids where players input or tick/select their ready available search requirements, players with such requirements can join (similar to fractal tier where players won't be able to join higher tier not unless they progressed).

This is a horrible idea. Automated systems remove the social part of raiding and ultimately kill it off as people are no longer invested because, why interact, why care....I can just queue up again and if that one doesn't work i'll leave.

You want people invested in the mode of play, not withdrawn from it because there's no cost to their actions.

[Sephylon.4938]

The > @Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:I'd prefer the goal of making mechanics almost impossible to miss/fail at while still retaining the threat of a wipe. That way the threat of failure is still present, thus necessitate that people do them instead of ignoring them and powering through, but it will be substantially harder to fail. Therefore people will learn the basics of the mechanics. IMO an instance with no fangs will just lead to an experience similar to the zaithan finale.

Well, I mean, there are basically two ways to do it,

force

players to attempt the mechanics, but make them so easy that it's very difficult to fail them, which would make it practically useless as training for the real thing, OR

allow

players to ignore them, because ignoring them isn't likely to cause failure, but at the same time make them just as difficult to succeed at as the real thing, and

reward

success at them, by allowing for a faster and cleaner event completion. I just think that the second one is better, I don't see the virtue in requiring players to do the mechanics, especially if they are dumbed down to the point where they are effortless to complete, and training people to be able to complete those dumbed down mechanics would be worth practically nothing when they attempt the real thing. It's basically like Wiffle T-Ball compared to baseball.

That is a fair point and does lead me to consider my own bias. I personally learn through failing, adopting, and re-engaging until the desired outcome is recieved. That's not to say that the other way is wrong, it's just that I have an affinity for this way of learning. Additionally I believe that the basics, once mastered, will perfectly translate into advanced which is why I wanted to mandate them. In light if this, I believe the question now becomes: how do the majority learn, or if there is a way to integrate both methods.

Might I ask about your thouts on the other proposals for easy mode? To add a mistlock singularity esque effect to raids that can stack up to 3 or 5 times via the ley rift, reduced number of people for green/scaling reduction per player in green, a clear indication of the tank, the ability to turn off visual effects of other players to reduce visual noise, and the ability to kill the green guardian by healing it. I don't know why I keep bringing up the last point, I just feel comlelled to.

Also an apology to Astralporing. I completely misunderstood your proposal the first time.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Sephylon.4938" said:I personally learn through failing, adopting, and re-engaging until the desired outcome is recieved.

And that's fair, and that seems to be the position of a lot of the "raids are fine" people, that's how they view the world, it works for them, and I think that's great, so long as they don't assume everyone works that way.

I know that for myself, that's not how I work. I tend to get overly frustrated with failure, and the anxiety of it tends to override my common sense, leading me to perform well below my peak in high-stress situations. I actually consider myself a reasonably skilled player, under most conditions, but I really dislike doing the so-called "high skill" tasks in the game, for those reasons. For me, I tend to learn much better through repeated successes, from improving on each attempt. Rather than something being "pass/fail," and failure being highly likely, I prefer to get a "D" on the first time, then a "C", then a "B," and eventually get it down to an "A."

So that's the point of easy mode, if a player is of the sort that prefers to throw themselves at the rocks until the rocks move, then they probably should stick to hard mode, that's the mode designed to be compatible with that mentality. Easy mode is designed around the other people, who learn things in a different way.

Might I ask about your thouts on the other proposals for easy mode? To add a mistlock singularity esque effect to raids that can stack up to 3 or 5 times via the ley rift,

My first impression on this is, it would be a lot more work to implement, since these would be completely different mechanics that would need to be designed, coded, and tested, rather than just taking the existing mechanics and loosening the screws. It would also seem to be something that would make the encounters harder, which in the context of having an easy mode would mean that the defaults would need to be made easier, and I doubt having the default "normal" mode be easier would be welcomed by a lot of existing raiders. Purely as a "bonus option" for hard mode players, I don't see any problem with it, but I don't really see how it would solve anything for those looking for an easier mode.

reduced number of people for green/scaling reduction per player in green

Like we were discussing, they would make it easier to succeed, but would just teach bad habits for the real thing, and would still require the sort of roles and coordination that I'd hope to move away from when designing an easy mode. I just don't see this as an ideal solution.

a clear indication of the tank,

This seems like something that would be useful just in general to all modes, but I don't think it would add much to an easy mode specifically. The tank is the guy the enemy is facing.

the ability to turn off visual effects of other players to reduce visual noise,

Also useful in general, but this one can be tricky. Reduce too many effects and you can't even tell what useful things are going on. I also don't believe this would significantly improve the easy mode experience.

and the ability to kill the green guardian by healing it.

This also seems like an ability that would not translate to the hard mode, so it would basically be making the easy mode more complicated, not less. I think that if the "specific damage required" enemies would remain a problem, the solution is more just "increase the amount of damage that "wrong" damage can do" would be the better solution. "Doing the thing" would be more efficient, but "not doing the thing" would work too, eventually.

[Sephylon.4938]

And that's fair, and that seems to be the position of a lot of the "raids are fine" people, that's how they view the world, it works for them, and I think that's great, so long as they don't assume everyone works that way.I know that for myself, that's not how I work. I tend to get overly frustrated with failure, and the anxiety of it tends to override my common sense, leading me to perform well below my peak in high-stress situations. I actually consider myself a reasonably skilled player, under most conditions, but I really dislike doing the so-called "high skill" tasks in the game, for those reasons. For me, I tend to learn much better through repeated successes, from improving on each attempt. Rather than something being "pass/fail," and failure being highly likely, I prefer to get a "D" on the first time, then a "C", then a "B," and eventually get it down to an "A."So that's the point of easy mode, if a player is of the sort that prefers to throw themselves at the rocks until the rocks move, then they probably should stick to hard mode, that's the mode designed to be compatible with that mentality. Easy mode is designed around the other people, who learn things in a different way.

I believe we can work something out that is somewhere in between our learning preferences. As an example, reducing the number of people for greens would allow the people who do not want to do the mechanic to pass the buck to those who do and are trying to learn it. The passive damage of the auras and bullet hell could also be toned down a bit. I'm not sure what can be done about the blues, as the problem with them is that the visual mess of skills just make them extremely hard to notice.

And as long as we're sharing; I came from a country in which the education system was pass/fail: you either got 75% and got looked at as the dumbest of the smart unless you were in the 90-100 range, or got below 74 and the teachers lost all hope and interest in you.

My first impression on this is, it would be a lot more work to implement, since these would be completely different mechanics that would need to be designed, coded, and tested, rather than just taking the existing mechanics and loosening the screws. It would also seem to be something that would make the encounters harder, which in the context of having an easy mode would mean that the defaults would need to be made easier, and I doubt having the default "normal" mode be easier would be welcomed by a lot of existing raiders. Purely as a "bonus option" for hard mode players, I don't see any problem with it, but I don't really see how it would solve anything for those looking for an easier mode.How so? We already have mistlocks in fractals, now I may be underestimating the work required, but it shouldn't be that hard to move them to raids. I'm not sure how it would make encounters harder as you would essentially have 1-3 free rezes to cover mistakes. Wouldn't that make it easier and not harder to do the bosses?

Like we were discussing, they would make it easier to succeed, but would just teach bad habits for the real thing, and would still require the sort of roles and coordination that I'd hope to move away from when designing an easy mode. I just don't see this as an ideal solution.fair point, but as stated above, the reduced number of people required would allow you to pass the buck so to speak to people that actually want to do it, and I believe that it will be more than likely that you do find at least 1. At which point the damage would not down the group, but leave them with around 50% hp which is easily recoverable from imo.

This seems like something that would be useful just in general to all modes, but I don't think it would add much to an easy mode specifically. The tank is the guy the enemy is facing.Don't under estimate the power of information, especially when you're playing with pugs who will probably be in the free soldier gear that the lvl 80 boost gave them. Knowing who the tank is at any given moment in such a scenario will tell the group where they should be standing to avoid damage.

Also useful in general, but this one can be tricky. Reduce too many effects and you can't even tell what useful things are going on. I also don't believe this would significantly improve the easy mode experience.fair assessment, but easily addressed by following the basic rule of stack on the boss' butt. As it stand the visual noise has been the biggest problem for people that I've taught raids to.

This also seems like an ability that would not translate to the hard mode, so it would basically be making the easy mode more complicated, not less. I think that if the "specific damage required" enemies would remain a problem, the solution is more just "increase the amount of damage that "wrong" damage can do" would be the better solution. "Doing the thing" would be more efficient, but "not doing the thing" would work too, eventually.

That one was less of a suggestion and more of a teribad joke I can't stop myself from telling XD.

I feel that I need to make some clarifications:The reason I am adverse to some of your proposals is because I fear that it would make the encounter far too easy and essentially become either another fractal 40 farm if the liquid rewards are too high, which would then attract speed clear farmers, and scare off potential new players due to the even stricter adherence to meta tactics, or it becomes another dungeon scenario, abandoned and forgotten save for a few, making new players think that this mode is not worth getting into. This is a very fine line we are trying to make. I would like to push these thoughts aside for now though, and focus on how the fight should play out so then the rewards can be adjusted accordingly.

Also, the chest at the end of each boss, is once per week, but the liquid gold reward and magnetite rewards aren't. The magnetites are capped at 150 per week though.

Additionally, thank you for remaining civil with me despite our difference in views =)

[Solaris.2489]

The answer to this thread is no. When you are interested in raids you join a guild that specializes in raiding and practice. Eventually you see all bosses moving in slow motion and it gets boring because in PvE everything just follows a pattern you can learn.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Sephylon.4938" said:I believe we can work something out that is somewhere in between our learning preferences. As an example, reducing the number of people for greens would allow the people who do not want to do the mechanic to pass the buck to those who do and are trying to learn it. The passive damage of the auras and bullet hell could also be toned down a bit. I'm not sure what can be done about the blues, as the problem with them is that the visual mess of skills just make them extremely hard to notice.

But why split the difference? Who is the target audience of that change? If there are "people who are trying to learn it," they would be learning to do it wrong. I feel like people attempting to do a "training run" should advertise themselves as such in LFG, everyone in the party should have that goal. Meanwhile, in a more casual run, everyoneshould have that goal, to just get through it. A mix of the two would likely be unsatisfactory for both. I just don't understand the insistence that failing the green circle challenge must result in serious consequences for the entire group. I feel that one of the core design pillars of any easy mode should be one that GW2 was founded on, that other players are only there to make your game experience more fun, and to minimize the chances of "well I was doing my job, but someone else screwed up so now we have to start over."

I feel like players that thrive on "fail until you make it" are already well served with hard mode, and could continue to use that for their training, and probably get there even quicker, if that's how they work. I think it's against the philosophy of an easy mode to continue embracing that style. Consider this a response to the later point about the green circle as well.

How so? We already have mistlocks in fractals, now I may be underestimating the work required, but it shouldn't be that hard to move them to raids.

I am almost certain that the elements would not be plug and play, these are very different parts of the game. Even if they were, they would require specific testing and refinement.

I'm not sure how it would make encounters harder as you would essentially have 1-3 free rezes to cover mistakes. Wouldn't that make it easier and not harder to do the bosses?

If the other elements were left in place, and new penalties added, it would make them WAY harder for players left out by the current system.

Again, I don't oppose this idea as a completely separate concept, but I see no way that this could meaningfully relate to an "easy mode" of any sort. It's a fair discussion to be had, I just have no role in it, as this would definitely not be for me.

Don't under estimate the power of information, especially when you're playing with pugs who will probably be in the free soldier gear that the lvl 80 boost gave them. Knowing who the tank is at any given moment in such a scenario will tell the group where they should be standing to avoid damage.

Right, but like I said, this is just something they should probably add in general. It's not something that would actually mark a significant difference between an easy and a hard mode.

fair assessment, but easily addressed by following the basic rule of stack on the boss' butt. As it stand the visual noise has been the biggest problem for people that I've taught raids to.

Agreed, it's definitely a factor (though I say this not liking their previous attempts to "reduce visual clutter" which nerfed the visuals to a lot of cool effects). This needs to be done with a scalpel, not a chainsaw.

The reason I am adverse to some of your proposals is because I fear that it would make the encounter far too easy and essentially become either another fractal 40 farm if the liquid rewards are too high

Which is fair. I feel that by trying to restrict how the liquid rewards are handed out, and being careful about how much is offered, they can hopefully avoid this. I feel like it needs to offer enough rewards that players feel it is worth their time, but I would rather it be "not rewarding enough" than it being "not casual enough." The casual nature is the most essential feature. It needs to be legitimately challenging to fail it. ;) I believe they should start on the low end with the liquid rewards, so they don't need to nerf it later, and then ramp them up a bit once the system seems stable. The primary goal should not be about the liquid rewards, as a "get rich quick scheme," but rather about the play experience and raid-exclusive rewards. The liquid rewards should just be a bonus.

Also, the chest at the end of each boss, is once per week, but the liquid gold reward and magnetite rewards aren't. The magnetites are capped at 150 per week though.

Sure, but they could change these elements if they wanted. Like for example making the "drops every time" reward fairly minuscule, and shifting more of that into the weekly chest or some other regulated distribution method (like a reward track or achievement track).

Additionally, thank you for remaining civil with me despite our difference in views =)

Of course, and thank you for the same. It's sadly unusual around here.

[Sephylon.4938]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Sephylon.4938" said:I believe we can work something out that is somewhere in between our learning preferences. As an example, reducing the number of people for greens would allow the people who do not want to do the mechanic to pass the buck to those who do and are trying to learn it. The passive damage of the auras and bullet hell could also be toned down a bit. I'm not sure what can be done about the blues, as the problem with them is that the visual mess of skills just make them extremely hard to notice.

But why split the difference? Who is the target audience of that change? If there are "people who are trying to learn it," they would be learning to do it wrong. I feel like people attempting to do a "training run" should advertise themselves as such in LFG, everyone in the party should have that goal. Meanwhile, in a more casual run, everyoneshould have that goal, to just get through it. A mix of the two would likely be unsatisfactory for both. I just don't understand the insistence that failing the green circle challenge

must

result in serious consequences for the entire group. I feel that one of the core design pillars of any easy mode should be one that GW2 was founded on, that other players are only there to make your game experience

more

fun, and to minimize the chances of "well I was doing my job, but someone else screwed up so now we have to start over."As many as possible. I feel that if we factor in only one, then the other would essentially do as we are now, and a never ending cycle would occur.

I feel like players that thrive on "fail until you make it" are already well served with hard mode, and could continue to use that for their training, and probably get there even quicker,

if

that's how they work. I think it's against the

philosophy

of an easy mode to continue embracing that style. Consider this a response to the later point about the green circle as well.Fair point

How so? We already have mistlocks in fractals, now I may be underestimating the work required, but it shouldn't be that hard to move them to raids.I am almost certain that the elements would not be plug and play, these are very different parts of the game. Even if they were, they would require specific testing and refinement.I am not well versed in programing so I'll leave it to people more learnedI'm not sure how it would make encounters harder as you would essentially have 1-3 free rezes to cover mistakes. Wouldn't that make it easier and not harder to do the bosses?If the other elements were left in place, and new penalties added, it would make them WAY harder for players left out by the current system.Again, I don't oppose this idea as a completely separate concept, but I see no way that this could meaningfully relate to an "easy mode" of any sort. It's a fair discussion to >be had, I just have no role in it, as this would definitely not be for me.I'm not asking for new penalties though, just 1-3 rezes to be added to raid encounters if the player has the mastery for it, making subsequent fights easier much like how it works in fractals.

Don't under estimate the power of information, especially when you're playing with pugs who will probably be in the free soldier gear that the lvl 80 boost gave them. >Knowing who the tank is at any given moment in such a scenario will tell the group where they should be standing to avoid damage.Right, but like I said, this is just something they should probably add in general. It's not something that would actually mark a significant

difference

between an easy and >a hard mode.Agreed, it's definitely a factor (though I say this not liking their previous attempts to "reduce visual clutter" which nerfed the visuals to a lot of cool effects). This needs to >be done with a scalpel, not a chainsaw.Agreed on all accounts.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Sephylon.4938" said:I'm not asking for new penalties though, just 1-3 rezes to be added to raid encounters if the player has the mastery for it, making subsequent fights easier much like how it works in fractals.

Ah, I'm sorry, I'd thought you meant adding new optional penalties, like "Social Awkwardness" and the such. If all it's doing is allowing you to rez defeated players then that might be a positive impact, but with the caveat that it may take more than 1-3, and the people most in need of them wouldn't necessarily have those masteries unlocked, so it might be an interesting bonus, but wouldn't be a substitute for a proper easy mode.

[Silver.2076]

I like to remember the fracal meta back where you could do everything with 4 condi-reaper and 1 dudu. Easy, relatively fast, comfortable, stress-free, very easy to find matching players. That's why I played the fractal, because it was pleasant! That's exactly what I've wanted for the pve-raids for a long time. But no, it's all back to those damn speedruns and top-dps shit! It's stressing me out. Excuse me.If you ask me what we need to get more people into the raids: Exactly what there was with the former fractal meta! Play with no stress! This toxic elitism pisses me off!