Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[STIHL.2489]

@nia.4725 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:PVPers have legendary armor goalsWVWers have legendary armor goalsRaiders have legendary armor goalsPVErs who dont raid have no Legendary armor goals.

For those being selfish, get over your own needs and think about those PVERS, they are just as important as the rest of us.

The thing here, Vesica, is this:

PvPers get their legendary armor after playing PvP for a long time, dedicating a lot of time to it and trying to win and improve.WvWrs get their legendary armor after playing WvW for a long time, dedicating a lot of time to it and trying to win and improve.Raiders get their legendary armor after raiding for a "long" time, dedicating a lot of time to it and trying to learn and improve.

PvErs who don't raid want to get their legendary armor... by pressing buttons randomly and dodging red circles. ??????????

No one in PvP nor WvW get their legendary armor by pressing buttons randomly. They need to learn their game mode and how to play in it. This is what raiders also do.

The majority of open world PvErs don't do any of that. They just go and do their events and their things without actually learning anything, because open world PvE is designed to be beatable without doing a real effort to play good. It's designed for casuals to be able to do it. And it's okay! But don't expect a legendary armor for that tiny to non-existent effort and learning.

Wow.. You know, for someone that gets all upset about assumptions.. you sure like to make them.

I stand by what I first said about you.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:PVPers have legendary armor goalsWVWers have legendary armor goalsRaiders have legendary armor goalsPVErs who dont raid have no Legendary armor goals.

For those being selfish, get over your own needs and think about those PVERS, they are just as important as the rest of us.

The thing here, Vesica, is this:

PvPers get their legendary armor after playing PvP for a long time, dedicating a lot of time to it and trying to win and improve.WvWrs get their legendary armor after playing WvW for a long time, dedicating a lot of time to it and trying to win and improve.Raiders get their legendary armor after raiding for a "long" time, dedicating a lot of time to it and trying to learn and improve.

PvErs who don't raid want to get their legendary armor... by pressing buttons randomly and dodging red circles. ??????????

No one in PvP nor WvW get their legendary armor by pressing buttons randomly. They need to learn their game mode and how to play in it. This is what raiders also do.

The majority of open world PvErs don't do any of that. They just go and do their events and their things without actually learning anything, because open world PvE is designed to be beatable without doing a real effort to play good. It's designed for casuals to be able to do it. And it's okay! But don't expect a legendary armor for that tiny to non-existent effort and learning.

That foul kind of attitude is what gives raiders a bad name. Did you know you can get legendaries in WVW by simply playing the game and enjoying what you do? as with legendary weapons (good on them too for enjoying the game and committing to super long objectives) Raiders are a tiny niche segment of the PVE community, and argue against content that would expand the raiding player base - every reflect on why that is?

[STIHL.2489]

just wanted to say this.

Niche'denoting or relating to products, services, or interests that appeal to a small, specialized section of the population."other companies in this space had to adapt to being niche players"

Since around 100% of the games population gets involved in map exploration to some extent or another, I would say that is indubitably not niche' content.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:PVPers have legendary armor goalsWVWers have legendary armor goalsRaiders have legendary armor goalsPVErs who dont raid have no Legendary armor goals.

For those being selfish, get over your own needs and think about those PVERS, they are just as important as the rest of us.

Raids = PvE. The distinction you make has no other basis or meaning, aside from making your point look valid. Just like only dedicated WvW players will get their unique skin, only the dedicated PvE players will get theirs. In both cases it doesn't take any magical skill or talent that can't be acquired. It only takes dedication.

Wasn’t this what Zealox wassaying, however he stated that Wvw, Pvp doesn’t require effort it just takes dedication? Wouldn’t this dedication just mean a time investment, which you stated you don’t want people acquiring legendary armour from?

[Tyson.5160]

I would be happy if non raid pve received its own unique set of Legendary armor, I’m tired of hoping for change in raids.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:PVPers have legendary armor goalsWVWers have legendary armor goalsRaiders have legendary armor goalsPVErs who dont raid have no Legendary armor goals.

For those being selfish, get over your own needs and think about those PVERS, they are just as important as the rest of us.

Raids = PvE. The distinction you make has no other basis or meaning, aside from making your point look valid. Just like only dedicated WvW players will get their unique skin, only the dedicated PvE players will get theirs. In both cases it doesn't take any magical skill or talent that can't be acquired. It only takes dedication.

your being deliberately obtuse, you know fine well raids are a tiny subset of pve. pve <> raid IN GW. End game in GW is not raiding for all but a tiny minority.

[Tyson.5160]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:PVPers have legendary armor goalsWVWers have legendary armor goalsRaiders have legendary armor goalsPVErs who dont raid have no Legendary armor goals.

For those being selfish, get over your own needs and think about those PVERS, they are just as important as the rest of us.

Raids = PvE. The distinction you make has no other basis or meaning, aside from making your point look valid. Just like only dedicated WvW players will get their unique skin, only the dedicated PvE players will get theirs. In both cases it doesn't take any magical skill or talent that can't be acquired. It only takes dedication.

your being deliberately obtuse, you know fine well raids are a tiny subset of pve. pve <> raid IN GW. End game in GW is not raiding for all about a tiny minority.

Hell I would even take Legendary armour from fractals and just to sweeten the deal request that raids get their own Legendary back pack.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:PVPers have legendary armor goalsWVWers have legendary armor goalsRaiders have legendary armor goalsPVErs who dont raid have no Legendary armor goals.

For those being selfish, get over your own needs and think about those PVERS, they are just as important as the rest of us.

Raids = PvE. The distinction you make has no other basis or meaning, aside from making your point look valid. Just like only dedicated WvW players will get their unique skin, only the dedicated PvE players will get theirs. In both cases it doesn't take any magical skill or talent that can't be acquired. It only takes dedication.

your being deliberately obtuse, you know fine well raids are a tiny subset of pve. pve <> raid IN GW. End game in GW is not raiding for all about a tiny minority.

Hell I would even take Legendary armour from fractals and just to sweeten the deal request that raids get their own Legendary back pack.

All they got to do is make it so it takes as long as it takes for you to get wvw and pvp armor.

[zealex.9410]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:No, gear grind or gear threadmill is the hunt for statistical better equipment that gets released in cycles so the hunt never ends.

That can be a part of it, and often is, but is not necessary to the definition. if the players are motivated to unlock stats, then stats are the motivation for gear grind. If players are motivated to unlock skins, then skins are the motivation for gear grind. GW2 has cultivated a motivation to unlock skins, therefore, the gear grind in GW2 raids is about skins, not stats, but exists nontheless.

@nia.4725 said:No. I raid because I like it and because I like to raid with my friends. Shinies are cool because I make an effort to play good, so it gets rewarded accordingly. But they are not the reason.

Ok! Progress! So since you don't raid for the skins, and other people want those skins, there would clearly be no harm in allowing those players to earn those skins via other methods. That's one big stumbling block taken off the board, which makes this process a lot easier.

Its more tume and money efficient to get multiple diff ascended sets ic you are going for stat sets than crafting legendary armor.

Going for stats sets can be part of it, but its not the definition of a gear grind or gear treadmill.

[nia.4725]

The requirements for PvE legen armor are much less than PvP and WvW. Yes, sure PvP and WvW "just" require participation/dedication in time, but have you seen how much of it they actually require?

I'll quote from the wiki:

It takes 300 PvP League Ticke to obtain a full set of Legendary PvP armor. With the season cap of 100 PvP League Ticket this will take 3 seasons of reaching the season cap.

It takes 3,600 Ascended Shard of Glory to obtain a full set of Legendary PvP armor. 2,400 Ascended Shard of Glory for the  Star of Glory and 1,200 Ascended Shard of Glory for the full Ascended Glorious armor set.

All of that requires either 33 repeats of the final Byzantium reward track for most efficiency or 9 seasons worth of not repeating the reward tracks.

33 repeats of the byzantium chest is INSANE for everyone who doesn't dedicate to PvP. Last season I played a lot of matches and only repeated that chest 2 or 3 times approximately. This requirement will only get met by those who dedicate the PvP, not by PvP casuals.

Now let's look at the WvW armor:

It takes 7,880 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets to obtain a full set of Legendary Triumphant Hero's armor. With the weekly cap of 365 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets, this will take approximately 22 weeks.

It takes 10,500 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets to obtain a full set of Legendary Mistforged Triumphant Hero's armor. With the weekly cap of 365 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets, this will take approximately 29 weeks.

This is a lot, too, considering that only active WvW players will reach that skirmish ticket cap.

Now let's look at PvE armor:

It takes 150 Legendary Insights to obtain the first set of Legendary raid armor. With the weekly cap of  Legendary Insights, this will take approximately 9 weeks of reaching the required amount. Any subsequent sets of legendary armor cost 300 Legendary Insights, taking approximately 18 weeks each, because crafting additional Refined Envoy armor precursor sets costs 150 Legendary Insights.

You get the first set for free. Then you only need 150LI, which is 9 weeks of raiding. But it's not realistic to expect a noob raider to do fullclear, so realistically it would take a little more time. It's still very little time.

Now let's look at what you need for the pre (not quoting from the wiki because I already know by myself):

• Killing all bosses from W1 to W4 once, excepting Gorseval which you need to kill 5 times (but Gorseval is one of the first bosses a noob learns).
• Doing some open world PvE things, like getting an item from an NPC in Auric Basin or doing a TD meta lane for each of Gorseval's thingies (total of 5)
• Crafting a chrystalline heart which requires 100 chrystalline ingots, so, doing HoT metas and more specifically Dragon Stand.

Fairly easy. Fairly quick. It even requires open world PvE events where you won't need any kind of effort.

[Tyson.5160]

@"nia.4725" said:The requirements for PvE legen armor are much less than PvP and WvW. Yes, sure PvP and WvW "just" require participation/dedication in time, but have you seen how much of it they actually require?

I'll quote from the wiki:

It takes 300 PvP League Ticke to obtain a full set of Legendary PvP armor. With the season cap of 100 PvP League Ticket this will take 3 seasons of reaching the season cap.

It takes 3,600 Ascended Shard of Glory to obtain a full set of Legendary PvP armor. 2,400 Ascended Shard of Glory for the  Star of Glory and 1,200 Ascended Shard of Glory for the full Ascended Glorious armor set.

All of that requires either 33 repeats of the final Byzantium reward track for most efficiency or 9 seasons worth of not repeating the reward tracks.

33 repeats of the byzantium chest is INSANE for everyone who doesn't dedicate to PvP. Last season I played a lot of matches and only repeated that chest 2 or 3 times approximately. This requirement will only get met by those who dedicate the PvP, not by PvP casuals.

Now let's look at the WvW armor:

It takes 7,880 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets to obtain a full set of Legendary Triumphant Hero's armor. With the weekly cap of 365 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets, this will take approximately 22 weeks.

It takes 10,500 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets to obtain a full set of Legendary Mistforged Triumphant Hero's armor. With the weekly cap of 365 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets, this will take approximately 29 weeks.

This is a lot, too, considering that only active WvW players will reach that skirmish ticket cap.

Now let's look at PvE armor:

It takes 150 Legendary Insights to obtain the first set of Legendary raid armor. With the weekly cap of  Legendary Insights, this will take approximately 9 weeks of reaching the required amount. Any subsequent sets of legendary armor cost 300 Legendary Insights, taking approximately 18 weeks each, because crafting additional Refined Envoy armor precursor sets costs 150 Legendary Insights.

You get the first set for free. Then you only need 150LI, which is 9 weeks of raiding. But it's not realistic to expect a noob raider to do fullclear, so realistically it would take a little more time. It's still very little time.

Now let's look at what you need for the pre (not quoting from the wiki because I already know by myself):

• Killing all bosses from W1 to W4 once, excepting Gorseval which you need to kill 5 times (but Gorseval is one of the first bosses a noob learns).
• Doing some open world PvE things, like getting an item from an NPC in Auric Basin or doing a TD meta lane for each of Gorseval's thingies (total of 5)
• Crafting a chrystalline heart which requires 100 chrystalline ingots, so, doing HoT metas and more specifically Dragon Stand.

Fairly easy. Fairly quick. It even requires open world PvE events where you won't need any kind of effort.

Personally, I’m 500 ascended shards away from pvp legendary armor.

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:Hey friend, I'm not the one who said the themepark thing. I never said anything about it. You are confusing people. XD

The comment you were responding to was discussing the theme park analogy. It's your responsibility to keep up with the flow of the conversation, and I can't help you with that.

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:Also what kind if easy are we talking about?Do you mean that everyone can clear it with any composition (and non meta builds) on first try?

If so i guess you would get legendary armor after more then a year of playing.Are you ok with that?

I feel like a year is slightly long, especially since they'll be starting the process about two years after the current raiders got to start, but it would be better than nothing.

I feel like players that want easy mode will not have this kind of dedication

You say this while forgetting that "players that want easy mode" make up the bulk of the population and have been playing the game for five years already. They have more dedication than the raiders, at least.

@Feanor.2358 said:Except it is exactly the same. There are set rules for acquiring stuff. You want stuff, you don't like rules, so you want the rules changed. Some ego you have, I'll give you that.

When rules are arbitrary and pointless, the appropriate response is to seek to change them. It benefits no one to just follow rules that don't make sense. That's what got the cows in trouble.

This would sound a lot more convincing if these same people weren't spending so much time complaining in the forums.

Exactly, we're clearly dedicated and hard working, just not necessarily in the game mode you happen to love.

@nia.4725 said:You will never be able to beat a boss without a minimally decent dps rotation. Even if they cheese the boss and cut its HP to half the original one. Or even a quarter. DPS will not be enough.

As I've said, I prefer that they leave the HP intact, but leave out the "auto fail timer" mechanics, so if you lack a DPS rotation, maybe it would take you longer to finish off the boss, but since there's no hard line where the game kicks you out, you could just keep playing until you did. If you did half the DPS of a meta party, it would just take twice as long to complete, not be much more likely to fail entirely.

@Feanor.2358 said:Asking for raids - which by the way I didn't participate in, as I wasn't even actively playing GW2 back then - is asking for new content. This doesn't change any existing rules, it simply asks for the game to expand.

But why is asking for new content in any way objectively better than asking for changes to existing content? They both involve the developers doing work because you want them to do it. Implementing an easy mode raid would take a lot less work than implementing the raids in the first place, so it's a less significant demand to be making.

@nia.4725 said:You know, this month mightyteapot hosted a hardcore raiding tournament. Do you know how many people watched his stream? The number went from 4k to 5k in the grand finale. That is a lot of people watching a stream in this game.

That's not even enough to make the Twitch front page. It may be more than this game typically gets, but this is not a spectator's game. Twitch stats are irrelevant to this game.

It is undeniably true that starting in raids can be harsh -the accessibility is not quite good, but not because of the difficulty of raids. The real issue is how the game mode doesn't have more trainers and guides than those that, as me, want to help and actually take some of their time to create content that will help noobies, or train them in the actual boss. It's because of that, not because the boss per se. However, if you really want to raid you'll be able to do it and experienced raiders have said multiple times how to get started at it.

And yet, not everyone will ever enjoy raids, so what do you do to accommodate them?

@"zealex.9410" said:Its more tume and money efficient to get multiple diff ascended sets ic you are going for stat sets than crafting legendary armor.

True, but no matter how many Ascended sets you get, it won't have Envoy skins, and the skins are part of the "gear," and so long as people are grinding for the skins, they're "gear grinding."

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:Now let's look at PvE armor:

It takes 150 Legendary Insights to obtain the first set of Legendary raid armor. With the weekly cap of  Legendary Insights, this will take approximately 9 weeks of reaching the required amount. Any subsequent sets of legendary armor cost 300 Legendary Insights, taking approximately 18 weeks each, because crafting additional Refined Envoy armor precursor sets costs 150 Legendary Insights.

And how long do you expect that to take for someone who doesn't raid?

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:Now let's look at PvE armor:

It takes 150 Legendary Insights to obtain the first set of Legendary raid armor. With the weekly cap of  Legendary Insights, this will take approximately 9 weeks of reaching the required amount. Any subsequent sets of legendary armor cost 300 Legendary Insights, taking approximately 18 weeks each, because crafting additional Refined Envoy armor precursor sets costs 150 Legendary Insights.

And how long do you expect that to take for someone who doesn't raid?

Nothing. Just raid.

How much time do you expect to take to get the legen pvp armor for someone who doesn't play pvp. How much to get the wvw legen armor for someone who doesn't play wvw? How much to get the funerary armor for someone who does not play pve?

Nothing. Because every set is tied and meant for a different type of content, so pvp is only for pvp, wvw is only for wvw and raids are only for raids.

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:Now let's look at PvE armor:

It takes 150 Legendary Insights to obtain the first set of Legendary raid armor. With the weekly cap of  Legendary Insights, this will take approximately 9 weeks of reaching the required amount. Any subsequent sets of legendary armor cost 300 Legendary Insights, taking approximately 18 weeks each, because crafting additional Refined Envoy armor precursor sets costs 150 Legendary Insights.

And how long do you expect that to take for someone who doesn't raid?

Nothing. Just raid.

How much time do you expect to take to get the legen pvp armor for someone who doesn't play pvp. How much to get the wvw legen armor for someone who doesn't play wvw? How much to get the funerary armor for someone who does not play pve?

Nothing. Because every set is tied and meant for a different type of content, so pvp is only for pvp, wvw is only for wvw and raids are only for raids.

But you can just play PvP to get the PvP armor, you can just WvW to get the WvW armor. To get the only armor in PvE, you have to raid, even if raiding is something you don't enjoy at all. If the argument is to be made that "raid armor is the PvE armor, then there needs to be a PvE method of earning it that doesn't involve raiding.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:Now let's look at PvE armor:

It takes 150 Legendary Insights to obtain the first set of Legendary raid armor. With the weekly cap of  Legendary Insights, this will take approximately 9 weeks of reaching the required amount. Any subsequent sets of legendary armor cost 300 Legendary Insights, taking approximately 18 weeks each, because crafting additional Refined Envoy armor precursor sets costs 150 Legendary Insights.

And how long do you expect that to take for someone who doesn't raid?

Nothing. Just raid.

How much time do you expect to take to get the legen pvp armor for someone who doesn't play pvp. How much to get the wvw legen armor for someone who doesn't play wvw? How much to get the funerary armor for someone who does not play pve?

Nothing. Because every set is tied and meant for a different type of content, so pvp is only for pvp, wvw is only for wvw and raids are only for raids.

But you can just play PvP to get the PvP armor, you can just WvW to get the WvW armor. To get the only armor in PvE, you have to

PvE

, even if raiding is something you don't enjoy at all. If the argument is to be made that "raid armor

is

the PvE armor, then there needs to be a PvE method of earning it that doesn't involve raiding.

Fixed it for you.

To get PvE Armor all players need to do is PvE, the similar to how WvW players only have to WvW and PvP players PvP....

/thread

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:Now let's look at PvE armor:

It takes 150 Legendary Insights to obtain the first set of Legendary raid armor. With the weekly cap of  Legendary Insights, this will take approximately 9 weeks of reaching the required amount. Any subsequent sets of legendary armor cost 300 Legendary Insights, taking approximately 18 weeks each, because crafting additional Refined Envoy armor precursor sets costs 150 Legendary Insights.

And how long do you expect that to take for someone who doesn't raid?

Nothing. Just raid.

How much time do you expect to take to get the legen pvp armor for someone who doesn't play pvp. How much to get the wvw legen armor for someone who doesn't play wvw? How much to get the funerary armor for someone who does not play pve?

Nothing. Because every set is tied and meant for a different type of content, so pvp is only for pvp, wvw is only for wvw and raids are only for raids.

But you can just play PvP to get the PvP armor, you can just WvW to get the WvW armor. To get the only armor in PvE, you have to raid, even if raiding is something you don't enjoy at all. If the argument is to be made that "raid armor

is

the PvE armor, then there needs to be a PvE method of earning it that doesn't involve raiding.

That's not quite correct.

1) To get the PvP armor you have to play RANKED PvP. Unranked does not give you access to the legen armor. What if I do not enjoy ranked? To get the PvP armor you have to play ranked, even if ranked is something you don't enjoy at all.

2) Raids are PvE whether you like it or not. If it's or you consider it niche it's because the players have made it and consider it this way. Considering raids a separate thing from PvE is an opinion, a social construct.

3) There are a hell of a lot of PvE armor. You have dungeon armor, carapace armor, HoT armor, PoF armor. Didn't you want the legen armor for the skin? Well, if we are talking about skins solely, PvE has a trillion times more skins than any other game mode. If we're talking about stats, legen armor has the same stats as ascended armor and you can get ascended armor in non-raid PvE. The only thing you have left to argue is the supposed QoL attached to legen armor, the free stat swapping. But weren't you talking all the time about how you just want the skin?

[Ohoni.6057]

@"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:Fixed it for you.

No, that wasn't "fixing" anything, that was removing the primary point of it. That would be like if I said "2+2=4" and you said "2+3=4, fixed it for you!"

@nia.4725 said:1) To get the PvP armor you have to play RANKED PvP. Unranked does not give you access to the legen armor. What if I do not enjoy ranked? To get the PvP armor you have to play ranked, even if ranked is something you don't enjoy at all.

There's no difference between ranked and unranked, beyond that other players are more likely to get salty if you aren't any good at it.

2) Raids are PvE whether you like it or not. If it's or you consider it niche it's because the players have made it and consider it this way. Considering raids a separate thing from PvE is an opinion, a social construct.

Raids are no more a part of PvE than WvW is a part of PvP. Raids are PvE content in a theoretical sense, just as WvW is PvP content in that same sense, but it is a very specific niche within the PvE portion of the game, just as WvW is a specific niche within PvP. If both WvW and PvP get armors, non-raiding PvE should as well.

3) There are a hell of a lot of PvE armor. You have dungeon armor, carapace armor, HoT armor, PoF armor. Didn't you want the legen armor for the skin? Well, if we are talking about skins solely, PvE has a trillion times more skins than any other game mode.

Most skins that can be earned in PvE can also be earned in PvP and WvW, at the very least bought off the TP using currency earned from those modes. I'd be interested in seeing a list of skin that's completely impossible to collect without leaving the mists. In either case, it's not a numbers game, it's about whether or not you have the one that you want. If they provide you 99 options, and hold off 1, then that's still an issue if you prefer that 1 to the 99 options you were offered.

Again, if you don't feel that I am justified in caring about not having access to the Envoy skins, then obviously you would not be justified in caring that I can't have them. Either you feel that it's important that non-raiders never have access to Envoy skins, or you feel that non-raiders shouldn't be allowed to care that they can't have access to Envoy skins, you can't hold both positions at once and claim intellectual consistency.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:Fixed it for you.

No, that wasn't "fixing" anything, that was removing the primary point of it. That would be like if I said "2+2=4" and you said "2+3=4, fixed it for you!"

@nia.4725 said:1) To get the PvP armor you have to play RANKED PvP. Unranked does not give you access to the legen armor. What if I do not enjoy ranked? To get the PvP armor you have to play ranked, even if ranked is something you don't enjoy at all.

There's no difference between ranked and unranked, beyond that other players are more likely to get salty if you aren't any good at it.

2) Raids are PvE whether you like it or not. If it's or you consider it niche it's because the players have made it and consider it this way. Considering raids a separate thing from PvE is an opinion, a social construct.

Raids are no more a part of PvE than WvW is a part of PvP. Raids are PvE content in a theoretical sense, just as WvW is PvP content in that same sense, but it is a very specific niche within the PvE portion of the game, just as WvW is a specific niche within PvP. If both WvW and PvP get armors, non-raiding PvE should as well.

3) There are a hell of a lot of PvE armor. You have dungeon armor, carapace armor, HoT armor, PoF armor. Didn't you want the legen armor for the skin? Well, if we are talking about skins solely, PvE has a trillion times more skins than any other game mode.

Most

skins that can be earned in PvE can also be earned in PvP and WvW, at the very least bought off the TP using currency earned from those modes. I'd be interested in seeing a list of skin that's completely impossible to collect without leaving the mists. In either case, it's not a numbers game, it's about whether or not you have the one that you want. If they provide you 99 options, and hold off 1, then that's still an issue if you prefer that 1 to the 99 options you were offered.

Again, if you don't feel that I am justified in caring about not having access to the Envoy skins, then obviously you would not be justified in caring that I

can't

have them. Either you feel that it's important that non-raiders never have access to Envoy skins, or you feel that non-raiders shouldn't be allowed to care that they can't have access to Envoy skins, you can't hold both positions at once and claim intellectual consistency.

Trying to Say Raids isn’t PvE is like tryin to Say Ranked PvP isn’t apart of PvP or that EB isn’t a part of WvW....

No way around it PvErs only have to PvE to get Legendary Armor, they don’t have to do WvW or PvP to obtain Envoy Armor

[Bladestrom.6425]

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:Now let's look at PvE armor:

It takes 150 Legendary Insights to obtain the first set of Legendary raid armor. With the weekly cap of  Legendary Insights, this will take approximately 9 weeks of reaching the required amount. Any subsequent sets of legendary armor cost 300 Legendary Insights, taking approximately 18 weeks each, because crafting additional Refined Envoy armor precursor sets costs 150 Legendary Insights.

And how long do you expect that to take for someone who doesn't raid?

Nothing. Just raid.

How much time do you expect to take to get the legen pvp armor for someone who doesn't play pvp. How much to get the wvw legen armor for someone who doesn't play wvw? How much to get the funerary armor for someone who does not play pve?

Nothing. Because every set is tied and meant for a different type of content, so pvp is only for pvp, wvw is only for wvw and raids are only for raids.

But you can just play PvP to get the PvP armor, you can just WvW to get the WvW armor. To get the only armor in PvE, you have to raid, even if raiding is something you don't enjoy at all. If the argument is to be made that "raid armor

is

the PvE armor, then there needs to be a PvE method of earning it that doesn't involve raiding.

That's not quite correct.

1) To get the PvP armor you have to play RANKED PvP. Unranked does not give you access to the legen armor. What if I do not enjoy ranked? To get the PvP armor you have to play ranked, even if ranked is something you don't enjoy at all.

2) Raids are PvE whether you like it or not. If it's or you consider it niche it's because the players have made it and consider it this way. Considering raids a separate thing from PvE is an opinion, a social construct.

3) There are a hell of a lot of PvE armor. You have dungeon armor, carapace armor, HoT armor, PoF armor. Didn't you want the legen armor for the skin? Well, if we are talking about skins solely, PvE has a trillion times more skins than any other game mode. If we're talking about stats, legen armor has the same stats as ascended armor and you can get ascended armor in non-raid PvE. The only thing you have left to argue is the supposed QoL attached to legen armor, the free stat swapping. But weren't you talking all the time about how you just want the skin?

1) ranked and unranked have the same entry level.2) I Didnt say raiding wasnt PVE, People can avoid and avoid and avoid, but the fact is raiding in its current format is avoided by the majority, that's why just like every other mmorpg there are normal modes - because guess what - people love playing instanced in pve, just not the rote/pattern/wipe style that is 2 decades old now.3) Obviously skin plus ability to swap stats is attractive, but really its about long term goals for normal mode raids.

• It makes sense to have normal raids, its cheap i.e if its 8 devs to build the raids from scratch, a couple of the other 400 devs doing pve can swap over.
• Its more content for everyone
• Easier level raids have proven to be wildly successful in other AAA mmorpg. Checfk out Wildstar for what happens if you dont have different level raids.
• It will generate more interest in raids, meaning more investment for raids
• More people will learn the raids and gravitate up to high tuned raids
• Higher tuned raids still have their own unique prestigious armor

Whats the problem?

Cut to the chase, the ONLY issue is a certain proportion of the raiding community trying to keep their little niche special, which is not a good look, and is certainly not about doing the best for the game community in general.

[Ohoni.6057]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Trying to Say Raids isn’t PvE is like tryin to Say Ranked PvP isn’t apart of PvP or that EB isn’t a part of WvW....

No, it's like saying that WvW isn't a part of PvP.

No way around it PvErs only have to PvE to get Legendary Armor, they don’t have to do WvW or PvP to obtain Envoy Armor

And PvPers don't have to WvW to get Legendary armor, likewise, PvEers shouldn't have to raid.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

I’m just p> @Ohoni.6057 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Trying to Say Raids isn’t PvE is like tryin to Say Ranked PvP isn’t apart of PvP or that EB isn’t a part of WvW....

No, it's like saying that WvW isn't a part of PvP.

No way around it PvErs only have to PvE to get Legendary Armor, they don’t have to do WvW or PvP to obtain Envoy Armor

And PvPers don't have to WvW to get Legendary armor, likewise, PvEers shouldn't have to raid.

Sorry but Raids are PvE. So PvErs only have you PvE. Doesn’t matter if you don’t want to believe it or not but Raids are PvE content.

sPvP and WvW are completely different Gameodes with completely different rule sets That are applied universally within those gamemodes respectively, just like how PvE is with Raids.

Direct quote from Devs about Raid Release,

“Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to “

[Ohoni.6057]

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:PvP and WvW are completely different Gameodes with completely different rule sets That are applied universally within those gamemodes respectively, just like how PvE is with Raids.

And raids are very different from the rest of PvE. You have fixed 10 player limits, weekly reward lockouts, plenty of elements that are unique to within raids. The devs may believe that raids are just another part of PvE, but if so, they would be wrong.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:PvP and WvW are completely different Gameodes with completely different rule sets That are applied universally within those gamemodes respectively, just like how PvE is with Raids.

And raids are very different from the rest of PvE. You have fixed 10 player limits, weekly reward lockouts, plenty of elements that are unique to within raids. The devs may believe that raids are just another part of PvE, but if so, they would be wrong.

Devs created the game and determine what content is what, Sorry Raids are PvE can’t deny it no matter how hard you try, it’s like if someone tries to say Ranked sPvP isn’t sPvP, or EotM isn’t WvW( funfact they are)

[Tyson.5160]

@STIHL.2489 said:I'm doing the WvW Legendary.. because I want BiS armor for at least 1 character, as it were.

But the irony that the so-called elite need role defined and routine based scripted encounters, and the casuals head out to deal with fluid high twitch skill based encounters.. is not lost on me.

Shows who the real players are.. and it's not the ones hiding in their little clique content.

I’m almost finished the pvp armor personally and Ben from Anet advised that a set of glorious armor is being released with FX probably similar to how the Mistforged works. So I will be waiting for that.