Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:They were supposed to have prestige. Hence why they all required the intended to be difficult rewards from the Explorable Dungeons and were huge gold sinks on top of it and required a large amount of work in every area of the game except SPvP. They were meant to be extreme bling to show off how much time and gold you've invested in the game. And yeah, people absolutely go for them because they're the most expensive flashy thing in the game. Kind of like how you saw way more people actually running around with the Molten Jetpack back when it was the most expensive skin in the game.

Again, it has nothing to do with being expensive, it has to do with them being

cool.

You'd see just as many people running around with them even if they all came free.Objectively, no the high monetary cost of legendary weapons absolutely keeps them out of a lot of players hands.

Who says they have all the armor sets they need? Just because they managed to get 150 LI doesn't mean they have ascended Berserker+Viper gear for all three armor weights, Magi's Gear heavy and light armor gear for Hand Kiter Herald and Healing Tempest, Harrier Gear for Druids.Getting all that would be cheaper than getting three sets of Envoy armor.

And I'd wouldn't mind having whatever the Generation 2 Legendary Scepter unlocked right now for free without having to do anything for it. I wouldn't mind walking around with a God of PvP title. But I'm aware how unhealthy that would be for the game as a whole and for my own player retention in the game and either of those happening is playing into my own worst instincts that shouldn't be indulged.

We aren't comparing that though, since nobody is asking to just be handed anything. It would still require hard work and dedication, at least as much as raiders currently put in, just in content that players would enjoy more. It would be MORE good for the game, because right now the majority of players have

no

way of meaningfully pursuing the Envoy armor, but with this change they could start. It would

add

long term goals for most players.

Objectively not true. If Raids are so easy that there's no risk of death like people here want then yes they will absolutely require less work and dedication than people who have already obtained legendary armor by definition. Dealing with wiping repeatedly on a boss and continuing to soldier on until you get the skill is more work and dedication than being guaranteed the kill in easy mode. Dealing with organizing a static group of players who can all raid at mostly the same time and day of the week is more work and dedication than quickly filling an LFG pug and clearing the raid in 15 minutes the content because it can't be challenging and everyone needs to see it.

And let me let you in on a little secret.

!A majority of players are capable of doing raids right now it's just a matter of turning their desire to do so into action. They can start right now.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Remember the Young Karka? They were much harder than any mob available at release (outside Dungeons)

Yeah, I remember people

really

did not like them.

True, those who didn't know how to dodge (or use projectile reflection). Shocking, a mob that requires some thought to fight!

Exactly, one of the most important things is to know your audience "don't like that sort of thing" is GW2's audience.

@Feanor.2358 said:See, you can either complain raids are too hard for you or claim their rewards are not trophies.

Sure you can do both. They are too hard to

enjoy,

not too hard to

achieve.

Anyone can

achieve

them. I don't have any respect for someone who grinds out a reward that they haven't enjoyed.

And while you can make a replica of the physical trophy, you cannot make a replica of its meaning. The same one you assigned to it.

But that's the thing, I have zero interest in having "the meaning," the meaning that

you

choose to ascribe to it. A replica would do me just fine, since all I want is the surface appearance of the thing. I want the item not because it means anything, but because I think it looks cool. I've straight up said that I would be fine with getting the skins without the purple armor attached.

But here's the thing. Me having a lot of fondness for the Kasmir's Staff Skin because my best friend bought it for me is me ascribing meaning to a skin that isn't necessarily there. When someone has legendary armor that means they've killed at least 150 raid bosses. That they had to get at least a certain level of skill to kill those bosses. That they probably had to deal with shitty nights where they kept wiping on a raid boss and had to call it early because they ran out of time. That they dealt with having to either organize or join a static, or organize pugs until they had the Legendary Insights needed. There's no ascribing meaning. Because that is the requirement to get it, that means that's what they had to do to get it.

[Tyson.5160]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Objectively, no the high monetary cost of legendary weapons absolutely keeps them out of a lot of players hands.

I see a lot of players with Legendary Weapons now a days, I don’t think they are as rare as people claim.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Objectively, no the high monetary cost of legendary weapons absolutely keeps them out of a lot of players hands.

I see a lot of players with Legendary Weapons now a days, I don’t think they are as rare as people claim.

Gen 1 or Gen 2?

[Tyson.5160]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Objectively, no the high monetary cost of legendary weapons absolutely keeps them out of a lot of players hands.

I see a lot of players with Legendary Weapons now a days, I don’t think they are as rare as people claim.

Gen 1 or Gen 2?

I tend to see a mixture of both on my daily travels. Though there are certain Legendary Weapon that are rarer then others like the HMS Divinity.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Objectively, no the high monetary cost of legendary weapons absolutely keeps them out of a lot of players hands.

I see a lot of players with Legendary Weapons now a days, I don’t think they are as rare as people claim.

They're not that rare, but they're at least expensive enough where most players don't have a legendary for every single weapon slot and I would say it's a safe bet that a majority don't have a legendary weapon. I wish there was some way I could see how many accounts have Tier 1 unlocked for Legendary Collector.

[Tyson.5160]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Objectively, no the high monetary cost of legendary weapons absolutely keeps them out of a lot of players hands.

I see a lot of players with Legendary Weapons now a days, I don’t think they are as rare as people claim.

They're not that rare, but they're at least expensive enough where most players don't have a legendary for every single weapon slot and I would say it's a safe bet that a majority don't have a legendary weapon. I wish there was some way I could see how many accounts have Tier 1 unlocked for Legendary Collector.

This is my goal right now actually. Legendary for every Rev weapon.

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k?

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k?

Comparing apples to Ferrari’s.

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k?

Comparing apples to Ferrari’s.

The principle is the same. Some people set some rules about their own product and you demand a change because you're too special to adhere to said rules. Cool story, huh?

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k?

Comparing apples to Ferrari’s.

The principle is the same. Some people set some rules about their own product and you demand a change because you're too special to adhere to said rules. Cool story, huh?

Some rules are meant to be broken.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:There is something that's called sunken cost fallacy. The longer people played, the higher the chance they will stay regardless what happens.

To a point, but plenty of people quit MMOs, especially ones with subscriptions. I mean if "sunk cost" was a panacea like you claim then there would be hundreds of MMOs out there with 500K+ subscribers. That alone can't cover WoW's success in the marketplace.

Sunken cost fallacy doesn't apply to games you played one month. It makes you less likely to quit the more money you invested in something. Like 8 to 10 years of WoW. It can't cover it alone but it is one of the biggest factors for WoW.

I still doubt it's that significant, especially since you can always reactivate a lapsed account. I'm sure it accounts for some of their subs, just not millions of them.

Yeah same age as WoW and pretty large userbase. WoW is not special.

That's two though, out of a hundred or more that have tried. It's kind of a big deal. It's like saying Mario "ain't no thang" because Grand Theft Auto.

For a very short amount of time and it will never cover the amount of people leaving when they start to offer skins for gems that were actual rewards for ingame activities.

I would say that the money they would make off of selling envoy skins in the gem store would more than make up for losing every single raider in the game.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Exactly, one of the most important things is to know your audience "don't like that sort of thing" is GW2's audience.

Judging by how for the next 2 years they continued adding more and improved mobs, even harder than young karka, they know their audience, but apparently you don't.

Nobody ever claimed that those were good moves.

@Miellyn.6847 said:No. We are talking about a Pandora's Box that should never be opened. Selling ingame rewards for gems. There are rewards designed for the gemstore and rewards obtainable only with ingame activities (buying materials with gems->gold is a side effect that will always happen unless everything needed is accountbound).

Numerous people in this very thread have suggested raid-buying as a viable alternative to easy mode raids. If paying to cheat is supposed to be ok, then why would buying them off the gem store somehow be worse? Is it because it wouldn't let you guys get your beaks wet?

What's next? All legendary skins? WvW skins? sPvP skins? If you ever start people will demand more. It will kill the game.

I prefer to have viable gameplay alternatives, but for lack of that, buying them off the shop is better than nothing.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Objectively, no the high monetary cost of legendary weapons absolutely keeps them out of a lot of players hands.

Right, so if they handed them out for free, more people would have them, and therefore more people would be using them.

Again, people don't chase them because they are expensive, them being expensive is an impediment, not a driver.

Objectively not true. If Raids are so easy that there's no risk of death like people here want then yes they will absolutely require less work and dedication than people who have already obtained legendary armor by definition.

Nope. They will be easier, but because the quantity of rewards would be less, it would require more work to acquire them. It's like the difference between carrying 100 bricks across a distance in 20-brick armloads, verses carrying them two at a time. The latter would be easier, but take ten times more trips. The total effort would be the same.

Dealing with wiping repeatedly on a boss and continuing to soldier on until you get the skill is more work and dedication than being guaranteed the kill in easy mode. Dealing with organizing a static group of players who can all raid at mostly the same time and day of the week is more work and dedication than quickly filling an LFG pug and clearing the raid in 15 minutes the content because it can't be challenging and everyone needs to see it.

I've been assured time and time again by raiders in this very thread that raids are very easy now and I can expect to get first time kills the first night I attempt them. Are you calling them liars?

A majority of players are capable of doing raids right now it's just a matter of turning their desire to do so into action. They can start right now.

Probably, but they aren't capable of enjoying them in their current form, because the stress level of the gameplay is not suited to their tastes.

When someone has legendary armor that means they've killed at least 150 raid bosses.

When I got my Fervid Cencer backpiece it meant that I'd farmed a bunch of Zephyrite events. Someone can now get one for log-in tokens. Conditions change, people adapt, move on.

They're not that rare, but they're at least expensive enough where most players don't have a legendary for every single weapon slot and I would say it's a safe bet that a majority don't have a legendary weapon. I wish there was some way I could see how many accounts have Tier 1 unlocked for Legendary Collector.

We can see how many are listed on Efficiency (which isn't scientific polling, but it's something). It's around 75% of 4000hr accounts, 50% of 2000h accounts.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k?

Again though, I'm willing to pay the price tag. What you're insisting is that if I want a Ferrari, that I must work as a doctor. That only doctors can be allowed to own a Ferrari. My point is that I should be able to work in other careers, and make less per year, but so long as it eventually adds up to $200K eventually, I can buy that Ferrari.

[Feanor.2358]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k?

Comparing apples to Ferrari’s.

The principle is the same. Some people set some rules about their own product and you demand a change because you're too special to adhere to said rules. Cool story, huh?

Some rules are meant to be broken.

On the basis of "I can't be bothered to move my gluteus maximus one inch"? I hardly think so.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Nobody ever claimed that those were good moves.

Nobody ever claimed that they weren't good moves.

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:We aren't talking about torphies though, we're talking about something you grind towards, Legendary armor.

So go ahead and grind it.

Again, I couldn't enjoy that. I'm trying to get them to add a method I could enjoy.

I can't enjoy a Ferrari's price tag. Care to give me a hand persuading them to sell me a new one, warranty included, for about 10k?

Comparing apples to Ferrari’s.

The principle is the same. Some people set some rules about their own product and you demand a change because you're too special to adhere to said rules. Cool story, huh?

Some rules are meant to be broken.

On the basis of "I can't be bothered to move my gluteus maximus one inch"? I hardly think so.

When the price is right.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

I would say that the money they would make off of selling envoy skins in the gem store would more than make up for losing every single raider in the game.

For a short amount of time. People leave when there is nothing left to do. Maybe take a look at WoWs population after LFR.

@Miellyn.6847 said:No. We are talking about a Pandora's Box that should never be opened. Selling ingame rewards for gems. There are rewards designed for the gemstore and rewards obtainable only with ingame activities (buying materials with gems->gold is a side effect that will always happen unless everything needed is accountbound).

Numerous people in this very thread have suggested raid-buying as a viable alternative to easy mode raids. If paying to

cheat

is supposed to be ok, then why would buying them off the gem store somehow be worse? Is it because it wouldn't let you guys get your beaks wet?It is still an ingame activity for an ingame reward and can be earned without spending any additional money.

[Tyson.5160]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

I would say that the money they would make off of selling envoy skins in the gem store would more than make up for losing every single raider in the game.

For a short amount of time. People leave when there is nothing left to do. Maybe take a look at WoWs population after LFR.

@Miellyn.6847 said:No. We are talking about a Pandora's Box that should never be opened. Selling ingame rewards for gems. There are rewards designed for the gemstore and rewards obtainable only with ingame activities (buying materials with gems->gold is a side effect that will always happen unless everything needed is accountbound).

Numerous people in this very thread have suggested raid-buying as a viable alternative to easy mode raids. If paying to

cheat

is supposed to be ok, then why would buying them off the gem store somehow be worse? Is it because it wouldn't let you guys get your beaks wet?It is still an ingame activity for an ingame reward and can be earned without spending any additional money.

Wait what? What if I pay for gems to pay to raid sellers to get me an achievement for the collection? I’m still using money, you could pay real dollars to obtain the precursor set.

How would this effect the current raiders exactly, who already have their Armor or all the sets already? The people buying the skins would buy them because they know that they would never obtain them otherwise, plus Anet gets cash in their pocket.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:There is something that's called sunken cost fallacy. The longer people played, the higher the chance they will stay regardless what happens.

To a point, but plenty of people quit MMOs, especially ones with subscriptions. I mean if "sunk cost" was a panacea like you claim then there would be hundreds of MMOs out there with 500K+ subscribers. That alone can't cover WoW's success in the marketplace.

Sunken cost fallacy doesn't apply to games you played one month. It makes you less likely to quit the more money you invested in something. Like 8 to 10 years of WoW. It can't cover it alone but it is one of the biggest factors for WoW.

I still doubt it's

that

significant, especially since you can always reactivate a lapsed account. I'm sure it accounts for some of their subs, just not millions of them.

Yeah same age as WoW and pretty large userbase. WoW is not special.

That's

two

though, out of a hundred or more that have tried. It's kind of a big deal. It's like saying Mario "ain't no thang" because Grand Theft Auto.

For a very short amount of time and it will never cover the amount of people leaving when they start to offer skins for gems that were actual rewards for ingame activities.

I would say that the money they would make off of selling envoy skins in the gem store would more than make up for losing every single raider in the game.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Exactly, one of the most important things is to know your audience "don't like that sort of thing" is GW2's audience.

Judging by how for the next 2 years they continued adding more and improved mobs, even harder than young karka, they know their audience, but apparently you don't.

Nobody ever claimed that those were

good

moves.I think they were. The game is more fun the more involved you are with the gameplay mechanics and combat system and PvE should be designed to make stuff challenging in a way that encourages people to care about their gear and build.

@Miellyn.6847 said:No. We are talking about a Pandora's Box that should never be opened. Selling ingame rewards for gems. There are rewards designed for the gemstore and rewards obtainable only with ingame activities (buying materials with gems->gold is a side effect that will always happen unless everything needed is accountbound).

Numerous people in this very thread have suggested raid-buying as a viable alternative to easy mode raids. If paying to

cheat

is supposed to be ok, then why would buying them off the gem store somehow be worse? Is it because it wouldn't let you guys get your beaks wet?

What's next? All legendary skins? WvW skins? sPvP skins? If you ever start people will demand more. It will kill the game.

I prefer to have

viable

gameplay alternatives, but for lack of that, buying them off the shop is better than nothing.

@mortrialus.3062 said:Objectively, no the high monetary cost of legendary weapons absolutely keeps them out of a lot of players hands.

Right, so if they handed them out for free, more people would have them, and therefore more people would be using them.

Again, people don't

chase

them because they are expensive, them being expensive is an

impediment,

not a

driver.

No but the fact that they are expensive, that you are likely going to need to save up over a period of time to get a legendary is what makes it more exciting to obtain one than Cobalt or something. Anticipation and work makes it more enjoyable when you get one.

Objectively not true. If Raids are so easy that there's no risk of death like people here want then yes they will absolutely require less work and dedication than people who have already obtained legendary armor by definition.

Nope. They will be

easier,

but because the quantity of rewards would be less, it would require more work to acquire them. It's like the difference between carrying 100 bricks across a distance in 20-brick armloads, verses carrying them two at a time. The latter would be easier, but take ten times more trips. The total effort would be the same.An easy mode that can be solo'd and where it's impossible to die cannot be compared to the current raid difficulty and all that entails the way you can compare moving 100 bricks. The experiences are so incomparable it's nonsense to try and compare them and make them equal in effort.

Dealing with wiping repeatedly on a boss and continuing to soldier on until you get the skill is more work and dedication than being guaranteed the kill in easy mode. Dealing with organizing a static group of players who can all raid at mostly the same time and day of the week is more work and dedication than quickly filling an LFG pug and clearing the raid in 15 minutes the content because it can't be challenging and everyone needs to see it.

I've been assured time and time again by raiders in this very thread that raids are very easy now and I can expect to get first time kills the first night I attempt them. Are you calling them liars?Nope. Raids are definitely easier than they were even a year ago. That's for a variety of reasons. To a small extent, it's power creep. While a few classes like Tempest back in the day could do really good numbers, most classes tended to hover around the 30-33k dps range before path of fire. Now there's quite a few classes capable of putting out 35-36k dps. So things like enrage timers are less of an issue, plus doing more damage means there's less time for mistakes to be made. My static went from wiping repeatedly on all the bosses in Spirit Vale to clearing 1-4 in our two hour once a week window.

But the real most important reason why raids are easier now is just that people are just better at them. Vale Guardian when it came out was a real monster. No one knew what they were doing. People didn't know what builds were good, how to do rotations on top of the boss's mechanics. Now, raids are definitely still challenging but they're much easier than they were because people are just better than they were when raids released.

It's like how even just a year ago, you'd still see organized T4 Verdant Brink, Octovine, Dragon Stand and Chak Geherent fail, especially the latter. Now players can do the events almost without fail not because they're so much weaker but because the community as a whole has learned these events so much better than when they released. Heck as long as there is a taxi Octovine will succeed without a commander or any community organization.

And just like all those old HOT Metas, raids can be tricky at first but they're learnable. They're just trickier than the Metas were.

A majority of players are capable of doing raids right now it's just a matter of turning their desire to do so into action. They can start right now.

Probably, but they aren't capable of

enjoying

them in their current form, because the stress level of the gameplay is not suited to their tastes.A lot of people don't know what they'll enjoy especially if they approach it from the wrong direction and a bad mindset. I didn't think I'd really like challenging games as much as I do until I played Demon's Souls and Dark Souls back in 2011. I didn't realize how much I missed raiding and having a static raid group like my old Pre-Cata days until I made myself join a raiding guild and learned to play.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Miellyn.6847" said:For a short amount of time. People leave when there is nothing left to do. Maybe take a look at WoWs population after LFR.

Raiders have claimed to me, in this very thread, that they would continue to raid even after having acquired the Envoy armor.

Also, there is no "WoW's population after LFR," that's just a meme. WoW's population did not change as any sort of result of LFR or other shifts towards convenience, they shifted the same as ANY game does over time, in reaction to market forces, other options in the marketplace, and general player burnout. They would be doing a LOT worse off without LFR.

It is still an ingame activity for an ingame reward and can be earned without spending any additional money.

Yes, exactly.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:No but the fact that they are expensive, that you are likely going to need to save up over a period of time to get a legendary is what makes it more exciting to obtain one than Cobalt or something. Anticipation and work makes it more enjoyable when you get one.

This is true, and Envoy armor would continue to take a long time to earn, nobody is trying to reduce that any. My point was just that even if Legendary Weapons didn't take a long time to earn, people would still want them, because they are inherently cooler than most alternatives.

An easy mode that can be solo'd and where it's impossible to die cannot be compared to the current raid difficulty and all that entails the way you can compare moving 100 bricks. The experiences are so incomparable it's nonsense to try and compare them and make them equal in effort.

Which is exactly the sort of attitude I've been dealing with this whole thread. How can there possibly be any sort of compromise when the position of the other side is "a million years of doing what you do could never add up to fifteen minutes of what I do?"

Nope. Raids are definitely easier than they were even a year ago. That's for a variety of reasons.

So they're ruined then. ANet's devalued the experience and made all Envoy armor worthless.

So what is there to lose my making them a little bit moreso?

A lot of people don't know what they'll enjoy especially if they approach it from the wrong direction and a bad mindset.

Possibly, in the abstract, but that's not the case here. Most gamers who have been doing this for decades have a pretty good handle on what they do and do not enjoy.

[Tyson.5160]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Nope. Raids are definitely easier than they were even a year ago. That's for a variety of reasons.

According to Feanor this isn’t true.

Feanor: Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

Me: Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

Feanor: No.

Or, to elaborate a bit, it does happen in games with gear treadmill where the powercreep trivializes the challenge. Since GW2 does not have this, it doesn't happen here.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Miellyn.6847" said:For a short amount of time. People leave when there is nothing left to do. Maybe take a look at WoWs population after LFR.

Raiders have claimed to me, in this very thread, that they would continue to raid even after having acquired the Envoy armor.

Also, there is no "WoW's population after LFR," that's just a meme. WoW's population did not change as any sort of result of LFR or other shifts towards convenience, they shifted the same as ANY game does over time, in reaction to market forces, other options in the marketplace, and general player burnout. They would be doing a LOT worse off without LFR.Millions of people play versions of WoW before easy mode raids, before LFR and all the other stuff they added to make sure everyone saw as much content as possible. This isn't just players moving on with the game, this is millions of players preferring older versions of the

same game

. You've never acknowledged this fact once.

So they're ruined then. ANet's devalued the experience and made all Envoy armor worthless.

So what is there to lose my making them a little bit moreso?

@Tyson.5160 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

Nope. Raids are definitely easier than they were even a year ago. That's for a variety of reasons.

According to Feanor this isn’t true.

Feanor: Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

Me: Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

Feanor: No.

Or, to elaborate a bit, it does happen in games with gear treadmill where the powercreep trivializes the challenge. Since GW2 does not have this, it doesn't happen here.Vale Guardian is still mostly the exact same fight as he was back in 2015. It's just the raiding community has gotten eons better at the game. By and large they've mastered it. Whichsomething that's difficult to learn, is punishing and has a high chance of failure but can be mastered is exactly what I want from raid content. Mission accomplished as far as I'm concerned.

Vale Guardian is pretty much the exact same fight as it was back on release. But the raid community have collectively gotten eons better at the game than when Vale Guardian was released. People who have learned to beat him, have learned to beat him with more ease than people who have not. Funny that! You guys are acting like you caught me in some gotcha when that's just an inevitable part of human intelligence to get better with practice.

[maddoctor.2738]

Leaving these here:https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/How-to-fix-the-dungeons-in-GW2https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Easy-Medium-Hard-option-in-dungeonshttps://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Adressing-a-split-in-the-communityhttps://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Why-Have-Easy-and-Hard-Mode-Dungeonshttps://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/anet-please-ignore-dungeons-are-fine-threads-by-people-that-did-1-dungeonhttps://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Guild-Wars-2-dungeons-is-like-playing-Dark-SoulsThe old days when the mods weren't merging everything...

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

I would say that the money they would make off of selling envoy skins in the gem store would more than make up for losing every single raider in the game.

You should have a wider perspective on this. Losing all raiders is losing lots of long-term customers who will keep buying your game and all things associated with it. Raiders are often loyal, highly active players who spend a lot of time and money on the game. Because we raid, and raids require some level of dedication, we give a lot of our gamer time to this game and nothing else. Plus, being dedicated to raids means that we will buy every new expansion -because new expansion means new professions and new raids. And by keeping us in the game with this, we end up buying more anet products, like gems.

We're nothing less that any other player in this game. Nothing more and nothing less, and we're definitely a chunk of the playerbase worth keeping.

[Astralporing.1957]

@nia.4725 said:We were discussing how Anet came to the decision of giving the Envoy as a reward from raids. I said that they didn't give the Envoy arbitrarily, they actually decided that was the reward they wanted to give for such a difficult content, as my quote shows. Nothing else.And that's pretty much an arbitrary decision. They might have decided to use envoy as a (for example) loyalty reward instead. Or a PvP tournament win reward. Or just went with the already existing, and working solution of legendary weapon paths. And there's nothing in their decision preventing them from actually changing their mind about it (remember, WvW and SPvP legendary sets were a result of such a change already).

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Raids were designed to give people the challenge, no? That’s what the driving factor was, yes?For some yes. For others? It was the minor part. The major part was they wanted recognition and they think that having the exclusive stuff and doing the content most people avoid like a plague somehow gives them that. And that this recognition they get for that is positive.This is why some people protest so violently. They think that if raids were really a sidemode, and there was no exclusive shiny reward to bring casuals' attention to them, nobody but them would care about raiders at all.And they are right.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

If Envoy wasn’t attached to raids, then I don’t think we would nearly have the problems we have been discussing about.

I don't think so.

Take it as a given that ANet would have had to put desirable, exclusive rewards into raids. That's part of the whole hard-content package from other games. It was way too late to wean people from that expectation before GW2 even launched. Not only has that ship sailed, it's arrived at its destination.If they decided to give raids their own unique legendary backpack, i'm pretty sure there would have been no complains. Or at least they would be much smaller. That and the white mantle/boss unique skins would have met the expectations of people at that time. Nobody would have been surprised. It's only

after

they announced legendary armor to be raid exclusive that the expectations got raised.

Yes, some people would have been complaining about exclusive skins, but it wouldn't have been any bigger than all similar complains for all the previous contents with unique skins. It would never have reached the levels it got to now.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Again, my goalposts remained fixed.

Yeah so you changed the goalposts, it's really simple. I entered the discussion debating the merits of that particular proposal; you don't dictate to me what I entered the discussion to debate. This rule:

@Ohoni.6057 said:I was saying that it had no pros within the context of this discussion. As in, the things that you listed as pros are in no way benefits to the people that were being discussed here, the people unsatisfied with the current raid options.

Was fabricated as a get-out-of-jail-free card to deflect any allegations of wrongdoing. Fabricate by the way, in this context, means making something up.

Also, let's be honest here guy; you don't actually care about people who would like something more from current raids, you want to get envoy armor via de-facto world bosses.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Yes, some people would have been complaining about exclusive skins, but it wouldn't have been any bigger than all similar complains for all the previous contents with unique skins. It would never have reached the levels it got to now.

Judging by who made half the posts in this thread, and how they'd still post if it was a backpack, I doubt that it would've never reached the "levels" it got to now. And by "levels" I mean threads like this one. If you haven't noticed it's 5-6 people posting on the official forums about this subject over and over. There is no discussion about it on reddit, or any other media, this is an "issue" seen by a handful of people on the official forums and nothing more.