Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Cyninja.2954]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:From all this talk, it sounds to me like raids are kind of a pain in the kitten, and maybe not every players is interested in putting up with that sort of pain in the kitten nonsense all the time, and just wants a more casual, "pick up and play" experience, and maybe if that experience were available, they would be more happy playing the game than they ever would by just accepting the pain in the kitten nonsense. That sound accurate to you guys?

Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Oh wait, you actually don't care about picking up and play but only the rewards associated with it which too are heavily gated behind those remaining 95% of the PVE in form of story, legendary, collections, map rewards, adventures, etc.

[nia.4725]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill

would

be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if

you

fail.

True, unless they are running a class and build which you have no chance of beating even if they were rolling their face on their keyboard singing "I'm a little teapot" (or you for that case).

Again, it's different types of skill involved. No one is denying that spvp has more dynamic due to the very nature of both sides having a human element, what does happen though in high competitive play is the same as in most other competitive games:

• you learn what and how to counter your opponent
• you learn when to use skills and patience to not burn critical skills to early
• you make modifications to your build or change class
• you repeat this process x amount of times while fine tuning it
• you hit your natural skill cap before beating your opponent thus never being able to succeed or you eventually overcome him

Notice how I could write the exact same process for raid bosses. The fact that different players have varying skill levels is insignificant. The actual fights between similar classes with similar builds have a set amount of possible outcomes and will eventually mimic each other at higher skill levels.

Again this is not me bashing spvp players or the skill involved because getting that good at your class with sufficient knowledge certainly takes time and practice but let's not pretend like every fight is a unique encounter with a huge skill ceiling to overcome. Much of spvp is practice and repetition as well as game sense.

When you are good at spvp and stomp 90% of the players you face (not accounting for playing an overpowered class) most of those fights were nothing special or dynamic besides you going through 1-2 more skills or not.

No amount of pve dps or whatever else rotation will make you a better WvW or PvP player, sorry. I am not buying that. It is one thing to burn through a PvE boss, and learn what it does, it is quite another to know where to stand in a blob, what to cast and when, which defensive utilities to use and when, to predict where you will burst depending on your warrior's bubbles/comm movement. Same is with pvp. No amount of PvE will teach you this. PvE skills/traits/utilities vary greatly in pvp or wvw. Raids make people better PvE players in instanced content, which is to be expected ( the brain is an amazing organ which can learn fast). But against human enemies? I have serious doubt about this. Knowing your skills, is one thing. Knowing why/when to cast meteor shower and summon a lightning hammer, press 4 for max dmg output against a raid boss is fine. Wont work in other gamemodes. Sometimes, you have to sacrifice dps for CC (all classes CC in wvw or pvp, in raids they dont), you have to AoE a different spot for your teammates to corner the enemy. No, raids dont teach you this.

I have to disagree, based on my own experience.

Raids not only make you learn a rotation. Raids make your learn your class, they make you be more aware of the things happening around you, and they teach you to adapt faster and more successfully, and to deal with sudden problems. That surely helps when playing PvP and WvW. Raids make you a better player, and a better player does better in other game modes.

And when I say "based on my own experience":Before I started raiding, I always got placed in silver. I played OW but I also did a lot of PvP. Always in silver. Then I got into raids, left PvP for a while, and some time after I came back and reached gold. Since then, I've always reached gold, even though I'm almost always placed in silver at the start. Obviously raiding won't make you a plat or legendary pvp player, but they do help improve as a player and that can be seen in other game modes.

Same with wvw. Through raids, I've learnt to play support firebrand. I'm very used to play support/healer roles (I'm main druid and chrono, but I also play heal herald and heal firebrand before I play DPS classes). So, when I got invited into a wvw guild raid, I used my firebrand there and I did my job fairly well. The things I was worse at were those specific to wvw (like how to move in a zerg), but the part of using my class what good. And, honestly, that's way MORE than what some know-it-all wvw players in my servers do. They think they're good just because they do a lot of wvw, and the reality is they suck. Because they don't know how to play their class.

So no, raids don't teach you certain things, but they do teach you some things that make easier for you to play some other modes successfully, or lessen the distante you have to walk to be a good player there.

All i see from several people, in this topic, is arrogance coupled with "know-it-all"ism (yourself not included). All classes are played differently in each gamemode, that is no secret. Knowing your class better means you didnt really know it too well, from the start. And what you say, although i can respect that, I can also reverse that: Knowing your wvw class well, means you will also play it well in pve, raiding included? The answer is, of course, no. Because instanced content (however hard), teaches you different stuff, stuff that have timers/you know what to expect etc. WvW teaches you different stuff, too. I know several wvwers who can play an amazing FB, they just suck horribly in pve. Same with eles/weavers, scourges (yes, skill is required there as well in wvw). I believe you (and it makes good sense) that you maybe had to dig deeper in your classes via raiding to know what synergizes with what, but it was a thing you maybe overlooked in the past (couldnt be bothered to do it). Have a good day!

Naaaaah.

Of course classes are played differently in each game mode, but when you play a lot of one class in a game mode and you go to another game mode, you'll be quicker to adapt and learn how to do well with said class in said new game mode. That's pretty obvious, in my opinion. "Knowing your class better means you didnt really know it too well, from the start."... Well, let's be honest here, and I'm sure you can see this, when you equip a class you hadn't before you gotta learn it. And you can read the skills and remember what they do as much as you want, but you won't really learn how to use it until you actually use it. That's what happens in this case and what happened to me, so it's not any case of "you didn't know it well from the start". Well, you never know a class very well from the start : D I equipped my firebrand with a wvw support build because I wanted to try zerging in wvw, but before I actually played wvw I brought it to raids, and I got comfortable with it there. And that helped a lot when I put a step into a wvw zerg.

Funnily enough tho, I know several wvws who play amazing in wvw and they have adapted very quickly and successfully to raids. My newest raid static member? He's a wvw player. He had never done a single raid. The first week with us he didn't have had time to get an explanation of the bosses... my raid leader only explained the most critical things just before we went into the boss (things like "this boss spawns a flamewall that draws a full circle, you'll see an arrow indicating the direction of it). He didn't mess up. At all. He didn't make us wipe. And he was playing SUPPORT CHAOS CHRONO. The most difficult class with the moss difficult rotation. And he did so good.

Next week, he gets some bosses explained. He continues playing good and never messes up. He continues playing chaos chrono. He gets perfect boon uptime. And when he does not play chrono, he plays DPS core warrior. And he gets good DPS numbers. WvW had teached him some important things about how to play GW2, had improved him as a player, had made him learn his classes, and that made him do better in other game modes.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Ok.

So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said?

You didn't bring anything. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Ah i see you still don't understand how burden of proof works.

[Ohoni.6057]

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative.

The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less quantity of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable path toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better.

It was just so much more optimistic. The second part made me sad. Such hate.

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Ok.

So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said?

You didn't bring anything. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Ah i see you still don't understand how burden of proof works.

But I do know how a non-sequitur works, so I see what you did there.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative.

The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less

quantity

of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable

path

toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better.

It was just so much more optimistic. The second part made me sad. Such hate.

How is it hate when I was merely stating facts? Even in this very response you are all about the rewards.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less quantity of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable path toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on.

That does not follow a logical path. The logic thing would be to have legendary armor require to play all tiers of raids. Just like the Ad Infinitum does. You start the first collection in T1, but then you have to climb and progress through tiers and you end up doing T4s in order to complete the last collection. That's why I said some time ago that, in my opinion, if easy mode was to exist it should give one of the pres, the Envoy I or the Envoy II. Easy mode should be a part of the path towards Perfected Envoy armor.

Another possible thing would be to do something similar to what WvW does. In WvW there's 2 legendary armors, one shiny shiny with shiny tentacles that requires having something like 2k WvW rank and another one that is the ascended upgraded to legendary (but it uses the ascended skin). It could be implemented in raids, like, easy mode gives Envoy II and you can upgrade it to legendary but you keep the Refined Envoy skins, or you can progress to normal mode and get the Perfected Envoy.

What does not make any sense at all is to easy mode being capable of giving the Perfected without doing anything in normal mode.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative.

The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less

quantity

of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable

path

toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better.

It was just so much more optimistic. The second part made me sad. Such hate.

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Ok.

So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said?

You didn't bring anything. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Ah i see you still don't understand how burden of proof works.

But I

do

know how a non-sequitur works, so I see what you did there.

I would've hoped you'd have learned by now that flailing in the dark accusing people of random logical fallacies you don't actually know isn't a good idea.

I suppose I was wrong

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:So, creators are not allowed to have intentions as long as some people are going to pay for the end product?

Of course not. They're

allowed

to have intentions, it's just that those intentions don't

matter.

As they say "no battleplan survives contact with the enemy." If the developers

intend

one thing, but the community

reacts

differently than expected, then the developers need to adapt to that, either by bending to that reaction, or by figuring out a way to steer the community toward where they want to go. Stubbornly insisting on the initial path is a recipe for disaster.

OK, so now we're entering the, "Give me what I want or it won't end well for you!" zone.

That's OK, though. It looks like ANet did figure out a way to steer the game where they want it to go. It's too bad (for you) that some of their decisions mean you don't get what you want. It's almost as if ANet realized that there is no single, unified community that all wants the same thing, and that the health of the game hinges on providing something for everyone.

You're talking out of context. The context was MMO fan/raider psychology, not game design principles. ANet decided to buy into the raid paradigm. They made that decision the moment they decided to tie Legendary Armor to raid participation. It is my hope they did that because they believed it was the best decision they could make for the health of the game. You, of course, are going to believe otherwise. However, if you are going to comment on something I said, please make the effort to understand what my statement meant first.

My point was, even if that is something raiders

believe,

it doesn't mean that the developers are bound to enable those beliefs. I don't disagree with you that raiders feel entitled to better rewards than everyone else, I'm just pointing out that the developers can ignore that, and I believe should have.

Again with the misrepresentation. I said "exclusive rewards" and you're trying to put "better rewards" in my mouth. Stop that.

As far as entitlement goes, you feel entitled to access to all rewards and all content while staying in your comfort zone. You are -- of course -- going to contend that enabling your entitlement is better for the game than enabling theirs. I don't think so. Absent proof to the contrary, I'm going to believe that the party that has access to data is more likely to know what's working and what isn't than the party with no data.

[Astralporing.1957]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:I'm only comparing to the PvE playerbase since raids are PvE, not PvP or WvW. But even in those two game modes, especially WvW, are many "not so skilled" players. It's fascinating how I could win duels in zerker armor in WvW because I knew my class while my opponent was trying to throw everything on me that he could. Same goes for a lot of people in PvP.Notice, how the same person with the same amount of skill

would

be eventually able to win a fight with you if you were a raid boss. Because they'd eventually learn your attack pattern and timings (since those would not change). But since you are a real player, with this skill difference they can only win with you if

you

fail.

If they're learning skills, patterns, and mechanics they're no longer the person with the same amount of skill. They're more skilled than they were when they couldn't win the fight.Why do you assume those people Vince wiped the floor with were incapable of learning those patterns? For all we know, they could have been fantastic raid players. It's just this kind of skill gives you no help in WvW, when you not only do not know the patterns of your opponents (because they can change those patterns and adjust them to your reactions), but can't even know what opponents you will get.

Raid players fighting against a raid boss may not be able to kill if the first time, but they can go in over and over again, until they get it right. Because the boss doesn't change. This approach doesn't work for pvp modes, because opponents do change.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Raid players fighting against a raid boss may not be able to kill if the first time, but they can go in over and over again, until they get it right. Because the boss doesn't change. This approach doesn't work for pvp modes, because opponents do change.

Yeah, no. Opponents do change when they have to. So long as they're winning, they'll do mostly the same. Just like a raid boss. So the same approach works equally well.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:

Raid players fighting against a raid boss may not be able to kill if the first time, but they can go in over and over again, until they get it right. Because the boss doesn't change. This approach doesn't work for pvp modes, because opponents do change.

Players in PvP will do things the same, or substantially the same, as long as what they are doing works. The demands on learning a "harder" PvE encounter stop at some point, at a peak for that encounter. The demands on learning in PvP never stop, but they do tend to plateau until balance changes shift meta play to different builds and thus different tactics.

Sure, being good at one mode is not a guarantee of being good at the other. However, some of what makes a player good in one mode will translate to success in the other mode. Willingness to put skull time into learning, willingness to practice, being able to observe what's going on, connect tells to outcomes and react appropriately, as well as good twitch reactions can serve players in both PvE and PvP. That doesn't mean that someone good at one mode is going to be good at the other, but it does mean that if someone is not good at the aspects of play the modes do share, they are not likely to be good at either.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Raid players fighting against a raid boss may not be able to kill if the first time, but they can go in over and over again, until they get it right. Because the boss doesn't change. This approach doesn't work for pvp modes, because opponents

do

change.

Yeah, no. Opponents do change

when they have to

. So long as they're winning, they'll do mostly the same. Just like a raid boss. So the same approach works equally well.Raid boss won't change his behaviour patterns because you have improved. It won't change them even when it's way past the point it's clear they aren't working anymore. Let's be honest, most of the raid bosses, if there was a player at the keys, not a script, would demolish 90% of experienced raid groups. In most cases all that would be required to massively up the fight difficulty would be for said player to be able to merely manually change boss fixate.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

Raid players fighting against a raid boss may not be able to kill if the first time, but they can go in over and over again, until they get it right. Because the boss doesn't change. This approach doesn't work for pvp modes, because opponents

do

change.

Players in PvP will do things the same, or substantially the same, as long as what they are doing works.

Sure, but, first, "the same" means something different than in case of raid bosses. Raid bosses do practically exactly the same, with only some random elements included (but those are also scripted). PvP player, unless he's really bad, won't go for that level of exact repetition while mostly ignoring what his opponent is doing. His behaviour will be more reactive. Second, it's "as long as what they're doing works". When it no longer works, behaviour will change. Raid bosses cannot do that part at all. They will continue to execute their original strategy even if it's obvious it's not working.

Sure, being good at one mode is not a guarantee of being good at the other. However, some of what makes a player good in one mode will translate to success in the other mode. Willingness to put skull time into learning, willingness to practice, being able to observe what's going on, connect tells to outcomes and react appropriately, as well as good twitch reactions can serve players in both PvE and PvP. That doesn't mean that someone good at one mode is going to be good at the other, but it does mean that if someone is not good at the aspects of play the modes do share, they are not likely to be good at either.On that i can agree. There are indeed some factors (like manual dexterity, twitch reactions and spatial awareness) that can benefit players in all modes.

[Sarrs.4831]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Why do you assume those people Vince wiped the floor with were incapable of learning those patterns? For all we know, they could have been fantastic raid players. It's just this kind of skill gives you no help in WvW, when you not only do not know the patterns of your opponents (because they can change those patterns and adjust them to your reactions), but can't even know what opponents you will get.

Not really, this is learning your matchups, and learning your matchups is almost directly analogous to learning a raid encounter.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative.

The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less

quantity

of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable

path

toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better.

It was just so much more optimistic. The second part made me sad. Such hate.

How is it hate when I was merely stating facts? Even in this very response you are all about the rewards.

I end up talking a lot about the rewards because the rewards are what most people push back against. I mean, if people are saying "NO ENVOY NO ENVOY NO ENVOY," then obviously my response would be, ". . . yes, Envoy, grow up." It is one of the things that I definitely care about, but it is not the only thing that I care about here, and I've said as much numerous times.

@nia.4725 said:That does not follow a logical path. The logic thing would be to have legendary armor require to play all tiers of raids. Just like the Ad Infinitum does. You start the first collection in T1, but then you have to climb and progress through tiers and you end up doing T4s in order to complete the last collection. That's why I said some time ago that, in my opinion, if easy mode was to exist it should give one of the pres, the Envoy I or the Envoy II. Easy mode should be a part of the path towards Perfected Envoy armor.

But that would make it impossible to earn for players who never intend to play normal mode. Normal mode is not for every player, and should not be considered as such. If this is a sticking point, if the "normal mode raids must remain a necessary part of the process, then we'll have to move away from discussions of having an "easy mode," and focus more on how we would need to nerf normal mode to make it equivalent* to an easy mode.

What does not make any sense at all is to easy mode being capable of giving the Perfected without doing anything in normal mode.

Why not?

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative.

The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less

quantity

of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable

path

toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better.

It was just so much more optimistic. The second part made me sad. Such hate.

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Ok.

So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said?

You didn't bring anything. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Ah i see you still don't understand how burden of proof works.

But I

do

know how a non-sequitur works, so I see what you did there.

I would've hoped you'd have learned by now that flailing in the dark accusing people of random logical fallacies you don't actually know isn't a good idea.

I suppose I was wrong

Again with the non-sequiturs. Maybe read what people say and actually respond to it?

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:That's OK, though. It looks like ANet did figure out a way to steer the game where they want it to go. It's too bad (for you) that some of their decisions mean you don't get what you want. It's almost as if ANet realized that there is no single, unified community that all wants the same thing, and that the health of the game hinges on providing something for everyone.

If their solution had actually worked out, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It worked for some people, but they still have a way to go for everyone else.

Again with the misrepresentation. I said "exclusive rewards" and you're trying to put "better rewards" in my mouth. Stop that.

Ok, so how about this then, in the spirit of what you just said. Put Perfected Envoy Armor in easy mode, but given normal mode exclusive access to Expirimental Envoy Armor. That way, they get something exclusive, but not "better."

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Raid players fighting against a raid boss may not be able to kill if the first time, but they can go in over and over again, until they get it right. Because the boss doesn't change. This approach doesn't work for pvp modes, because opponents

do

change.

Yeah, no. Opponents do change

when they have to

. So long as they're winning, they'll do mostly the same. Just like a raid boss. So the same approach works equally well.

Could you imagine a Vale Guardian that decided "you know, constantly going after the guy with the most Toughness makes me a chump, I'm just going to go after whoever I like." And also, when he splits, instead of hanging out in his corners, all three copies just rush to the middle (but just far enough apart that most AoEs can't multi-target them).

[Sarrs.4831]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Ok, so how about this then, in the spirit of what you just said. Put Perfected Envoy Armor in easy mode, but given normal mode exclusive access to Expirimental Envoy Armor. That way, they get something exclusive, but not "better."

Needing to clear Normal mode to complete the achievement chain, and then being able to do the rest on Easy mode, would be halfway interesting.

Though you can already do it, get your cheevos done once and then pick an easy encounter and just clear that every week

[Teamkiller.4315]

Ohoni you have demonstrated that you don't actually know what a non-sequiter is. The logical fallacy you are thinking of now is a strawman, it's not the same thing, and I didn't commit either.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sarrs.4831 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:Ok, so how about this then, in the spirit of what you just said. Put Perfected Envoy Armor in easy mode, but given normal mode

exclusive

access to Experimental Envoy Armor. That way, they get something

exclusive,

but not "better."

Needing to clear Normal mode to complete the achievement chain, and then being able to do the rest on Easy mode, would be halfway interesting.

Though you can already do it, get your cheevos done once and then pick an easy encounter and just clear that every week

I think you missed the point. No, you would never have to go into normal mode, there is no good reason for that. It would be that you could get the "Perfected Envoy" out of either mode, but the method of earning it through easy mode would not unlock the Experimental skins along the way. Those would remain exclusive to normal mode players.

@"Teamkiller.4315" said:Ohoni you have demonstrated that you don't actually know what a non-sequiter is. The logical fallacy you are thinking of now is a strawman, it's not the same thing, and I didn't commit either.

You said "Ah i see you still don't understand how burden of proof works." That was a non-sequitur, as "burden of proof" had nothing to do with our conversation that we were having. That is the correct use of the term.

[Sarrs.4831]

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I think you missed the point. No, you would never have to go into normal mode, there is no good reason for that. It would be that you could get the "Perfected Envoy" out of either mode, but the method of earning it through easy mode would not unlock the Experimental skins along the way. Those would remain exclusive to normal mode players.

I like my version better tho

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sarrs.4831 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:I think you missed the point. No, you would never

have

to go into normal mode, there is no good reason for that. It would be that you could get the "Perfected Envoy" out of either mode, but the method of earning it through easy mode would not unlock the Experimental skins along the way.

Those

would remain exclusive to normal mode players.

I like my version better tho

Who does it benefit though? Normal mode raiders who want to be lazy and just grind easy mode instead? It certainly doesn't help easy mode players, because they would still be incapable of ever getting the armor. It just seems like a malicious suggestion, "sticking it" to people that you disagree with, rather than looking to actually improve things for anyone.

[nia.4725]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative.

The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less

quantity

of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable

path

toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better.

It was just so much more optimistic. The second part made me sad. Such hate.

How is it hate when I was merely stating facts? Even in this very response you are all about the rewards.

I end up talking a lot about the rewards because the rewards are what most people push back against. I mean, if people are saying "NO ENVOY NO ENVOY NO ENVOY," then obviously my response would be, ". . . yes, Envoy, grow up." It is

one

of the things that I definitely care about, but it is not the

only

thing that I care about here, and I've said as much numerous times.

@nia.4725 said:That does not follow a logical path. The logic thing would be to have legendary armor require to play all tiers of raids. Just like the Ad Infinitum does. You start the first collection in T1, but then you have to climb and progress through tiers and you end up doing T4s in order to complete the last collection. That's why I said some time ago that, in my opinion, if easy mode was to exist it should give one of the pres, the Envoy I or the Envoy II. Easy mode should be a part of the path towards Perfected Envoy armor.

But that would make it impossible to earn for players who never intend to play normal mode. Normal mode is not for every player, and should not be considered as such. If this is a sticking point, if the "normal mode

raids must remain a necessary part of the process, then we'll have to move away from discussions of having an "easy mode," and focus more on how we would need to nerf

normal

mode to make it

equivalent* to an easy mode.

What does not make any sense at all is to easy mode being capable of giving the Perfected without doing anything in normal mode.

Why not?

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Oh, Ohoni. Most of us, even if we think an easy mode is not necessary, have not completely opposed to it. However, the real problem is that you want an easy mode PLUS normal mode rewards. You do not just want the experience and the casual alternative.

The rewards are part of the experience. It's not an alternative if it doesbn't include the rewards. As I've noted repeatedly, I would be fine with having less

quantity

of reward for easy mode, so that normal mode will remain faster and more efficient, I just see no reason whatsoever why easy mode should not have a reasonable

path

toward those rewards. It's such a weird thing to get hung up on.

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Yes, exactly! The players who enjoy that 95% of the game would also enjoy raids that feel the same way, and the devs adding that option to the game would make them much happier. Glad you're finally coming around.

Partly quoting and effectively changing the meaning of a passage is a big no no, you should know better.

It was just so much more optimistic. The second part made me sad. Such hate.

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:Ok.

So what happened to your taunting? "Bring it." I seem to recall you said?

You didn't bring anything. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Ah i see you still don't understand how burden of proof works.

But I

do

know how a non-sequitur works, so I see what you did there.

I would've hoped you'd have learned by now that flailing in the dark accusing people of random logical fallacies you don't actually know isn't a good idea.

I suppose I was wrong

Again with the non-sequiturs. Maybe read what people say and actually respond to it?

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:That's OK, though. It looks like ANet did figure out a way to steer the game where they want it to go. It's too bad (for you) that some of their decisions mean you don't get what you want. It's almost as if ANet realized that there is no single, unified community that all wants the same thing, and that the health of the game hinges on providing something for everyone.

If their solution had actually worked out, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. It worked for some people, but they still have a way to go for everyone else.

Again with the misrepresentation. I said "exclusive rewards" and you're trying to put "better rewards" in my mouth. Stop that.

Ok, so how about this then, in the spirit of what you just said. Put Perfected Envoy Armor in easy mode, but given normal mode

exclusive

access to Expirimental Envoy Armor. That way, they get something

exclusive,

but not "better."

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Raid players fighting against a raid boss may not be able to kill if the first time, but they can go in over and over again, until they get it right. Because the boss doesn't change. This approach doesn't work for pvp modes, because opponents

do

change.

Yeah, no. Opponents do change

when they have to

. So long as they're winning, they'll do mostly the same. Just like a raid boss. So the same approach works equally well.

Could you imagine a Vale Guardian that decided "you know, constantly going after the guy with the most Toughness makes me a chump, I'm just going to go after whoever I like." And also, when he splits, instead of hanging out in his corners, all three copies just rush to the middle (but just far enough apart that most AoEs can't multi-target them).

Your goal is completely illogic and it shows how selfish you are. You don't care if easy mode rewards don't have any logical structure or even follow the structure of other game modes, you just want easy! Mode! Perfected! Envoy! Nothing! Else! Maybe you're the one who has to grow up.

Pd. About the last quote where you say that about VG. Do you know Slothasor?

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Teamkiller.4315" said:Ohoni you have demonstrated that you don't actually know what a non-sequiter is. The logical fallacy you are thinking of now is a strawman, it's not the same thing, and I didn't commit either.You said "Ah i see you still don't understand how burden of proof works." That was a non-sequitur, as "burden of proof" had nothing to do with our conversation that we were having. That is the correct use of the term.

You made a claim and then expected to not have to prove it. How the heck is mentioning burden of proof a non-sequitur?

Even if it was irrelevant, how the heck would it be a non-sequitur?

Do you know what non-sequitur means?

[Ohoni.6057]

@"nia.4725" said:Your goal is completely illogic and it shows how selfish you are. You don't care if easy mode rewards don't have any logical structure or even follow the structure of other game modes, you just want easy! Mode! Perfected! Envoy! Nothing! Else! Maybe you're the one who has to grow up.

I do believe that the easy mode rewards should follow a logical structure, just that this structure should include the ability to earn Envoy armor without having to do the normal mode raids.

Again, either normal mode raiding needs to be inclusive of all players, regardless of skill level, time commitment, or interest in high-stress content, or there need to be viable alternatives to it that are that inclusive.

Alternate mode or nerf, which would you prefer?

You made a claim and then expected to not have to prove it. How the heck is mentioning burden of proof a non-sequitur?

What are you even talking about? Some other conversation?

Even if it was irrelevant, how the heck would it be a non-sequitur?

Do you know what non-sequitur means?

"noun: non sequitur; plural noun: non sequiturs; noun: nonsequitur; plural noun: nonsequitursa conclusion or statement that does not logically follow from the previous argument or statement."

[Even if it was irrelevant,] [how the heck would it be a non-sequitur?]

Do you know what non-sequitur means?