Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[mortrialus.3062]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

The general desire in the thread from easy mode advocates is that raids should have story so everyone can see it and that all items in the game should be available from a reward track style feature that fills up no matter what style of content you're playing so you can always just play your favorite content.

That's bad design actually. It encourages grind and it burns out players faster. GW2 takes the opposite approach - it encourages players to play different kinds of content using exclusive rewards. Open world, personal story, instanced content, pvp modes, they all have their own goodies which encourage you to try new stuff. It's by far the better way to structure your rewards.

Hey I'm just quoting them.

But you're definitely right. It's almost like Arenanet knows game design better than people who look at one aspect of a game and cry "Why does this get to be cool and enjoyable?! Nerf please."

[mortrialus.3062]

@AriaFiresong.7023 said:I'd like an easier mode just to let people experience the story. No, a gutted instance does not count unless ghostly imprints appear to reveal important dialogue/events regarding every single encounter. But they don't. You just see scenery that tells no story. Something definitely probably happened between mordremoth dying and a giant rock in a completely unrelated place exploding. It's been years and we still dunno what.

Nothing happens in the raids regarding that Bloodstone. Everything you need to know about the bloodstone exploding is from the journals in Bloodstone Fen and the story missions of S3E1.

What know before the raids is that the White Mantle and Lazarus are out there plotting their return. What we know after words is that the White Mantle and Lazarus are out there plotting their return.

But if you missed it Mordremoth dying released all his magic and overcharged the already compromised Bloodstone causing it to explode. Mordremoth dying was literally the cause.

[AriaFiresong.7023]

And the journals up to 3.4 all point back to this xera chick and what she was doing as being hella important, but storywise, to reach the xera chick, you gotta know what the matthias guy (some blip in one journal, you apparently learn hella more about him beforehand which changes everything) eventually did, and you gotta know what that sabetha girl is up to and why you're even dragged into this whole mess in the first place. To say nothing of the random monsters which only make sense in context of the story. It's actually kinda sad that a whole block of White Mantle stuff is sealed behind raids, and what was presented outside of that is "Here's some enemies with no real introduction oh they're dead moving on."

[Feanor.2358]

@"AriaFiresong.7023" said:And the journals up to 3.4 all point back to this xera chick and what she was doing as being hella important, but storywise, to reach the xera chick, you gotta know what the matthias guy (some blip in one journal, you apparently learn hella more about him beforehand which changes everything) eventually did, and you gotta know what that sabetha girl is up to and why you're even dragged into this whole mess in the first place. To say nothing of the random monsters which only make sense in context of the story. It's actually kinda sad that a whole block of White Mantle stuff is sealed behind raids, and what was presented outside of that is "Here's some enemies with no real introduction oh they're dead moving on."

That's because this is a side "story" with barely any substance and of no real importance toward the main plot.

[STIHL.2489]

@Digit.1823 said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

[mortrialus.3062]

@"AriaFiresong.7023" said:And the journals up to 3.4 all point back to this xera chick and what she was doing as being hella important, but storywise, to reach the xera chick, you gotta know what the matthias guy (some blip in one journal, you apparently learn hella more about him beforehand which changes everything) eventually did, and you gotta know what that sabetha girl is up to and why you're even dragged into this whole mess in the first place. To say nothing of the random monsters which only make sense in context of the story. It's actually kinda sad that a whole block of White Mantle stuff is sealed behind raids, and what was presented outside of that is "Here's some enemies with no real introduction oh they're dead moving on."

Xera was a white mantle mesmer who wanted to bring Lazarus back. She failed because she was missing the aspect Caudecus hid. Nothing she did was of any importance and accomplished nothing of value. Thats what we know from her and it's all from LWS3. The only thing you aren't getting thats hidden in the raids is that she put up a hell of a fight before she died.

[mortrialus.3062]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Digit.1823" said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

People who quit the game because raids are a thing that happen to exist in game are probably immensely small.

The idea of someone being like "Wow I love GW2!" reading the patch notes, seeing the word raid and immediately uninstalling is a joke.

[Cyninja.2954]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Digit.1823 said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

Considering overall revenue is up, over all players playing is up, the game is being praised left and right for being one of the best available MMOs, I'd say some people left and others joined and the game is in a better state overall. Seems fine no?

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Digit.1823 said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

If someone did this because of Raids and their rewards then the rest of the game obviously wasn't good enough for them and they would've done the same anyway.

[Dante.1763]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Digit.1823 said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

If someone did this because of Raids and their rewards then the rest of the game obviously wasn't good enough for them and they would've done the same anyway.

as much as id like an easy mode..

i have to agree with Doc here. If raids drove a player out, then the game wasnt gonna hold them for long to begin with.

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Digit.1823 said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

If someone did this because of Raids and their rewards then the rest of the game obviously wasn't good enough for them and they would've done the same anyway.

If someone is only staying for raids, then the rest of the game wasn't good enough for them, why bother trying to keep them?

That logic goes both ways.

[Feanor.2358]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Digit.1823 said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

If someone did this because of Raids and their rewards then the rest of the game obviously wasn't good enough for them and they would've done the same anyway.

If someone is only staying for raids, then the rest of the game wasn't good enough for them, why bother trying to keep them?

That logic goes both ways.

Because A + B > A for all positive values of B.

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

@"Vinceman.4572" said:

No, I already mentioned it. It's just fair. Better players deserve better rewards. If you don't belong to the better ones you don't deserve them. Like in every sports.

Taking a cookie cutter build, made by someone else, into a fight that is exactly the same every time, using a rotation that was developed by someone else makes a better player? I'll grant a few, very few, players develop their own stuff but moxt do exactly this. Then you add that to a static group who knows what the others are gonna do, then its an exact repeat.I apologize for making it sound so disrespectful, because I did enjoy the raids i've been on. But, to claim "better player status" over someone who can run Havoc or zerg or solo in wvw, or ranks high in PvP is preposterous. In those areas you have to adapt on the fly and no 2 fights are ever the same.While I don't want to take away from the satisfaction of a successful raid, I will certainly call BS on a claim of raider superiority

[Tyson.5160]

@"Digit.1823" said:I think what most people debating for easy mode for raids are forgetting is developer intent.

Intent matters.

It was the intention of the developers to make raids the most challenging content found in the game. We can all agree that if you want to make content that carries the label "most challenging" it needs to meet a certain benchmark of difficulty. It cannot be "as easy" or "easier" then anything else found in the game otherwise it won't be the most challenging content. And yes that will obviously mean that at a certain level some players are going to be excluded. And that is fine.

It was the intention of the developers to also add exclusive rewards to raids, reason being of course is that with it being the most challenging content it deserved it's own set of unique rewards. A common theme among all games with diverse content, that the most challenging content gives the best (or unique) rewards. A logical thing. And that is fine.

We as players have already exceeded many intentions that the developers had when it came to raids. They intended it to be for highly organised groups using voice communication to get the job done. These days? Just join a pug group, no voice comms needed and just kill the bosses. If every member of the squad has an idea of what to do you can get the kill. And it's mostly mechanics based anyway, dps requirements are quite forgiving as we all know (or should know by now).

We as players have also exceeded expectations, as stated by the developers that raids are performing even better then what they at first calculated. Meaning that the decision behind implementing it was a very solid one. (Despite some nay-sayers rigorous attempts to state otherwise, but hey, making comments without data/proof is fun.)

I'd hate to be "that guy" but if you really want to know how accessible raids are just go look at Kitty's kill video's (You know that girl that speaks about herself in 3rd person). Although it's clear to anyone that knows how to raid that the squads she's in are painfully sub-optimal, they do get the kill.

They.Get.The.Kill.

This, along with plenty of other video's showing off meta comps/people playing in all rares or greens, is enough proof that all you need is to understand about raids are the mechanics. DPS comes second. Sure enrage timers are there to provide a measure of ensuring you do more then just auto-attack to victory but the dps requirements are pretty darn low on most bosses.

Addendum: And because this means mechanics are literally the most important thing raids wise, this is why people are arguing that if you do implement an easy mode you need to leave the mechanics intact because reasons.

And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

And if you, after all that, still feel that you are doing something you dislike so much...well...maybe raids were intended to be for other players then you. And that...is also fine.

Yes, which would be true for the most part except they slapped in Legendary Armor. Something should have stayed away from Raids in the first place and I’m sure causes the majority of issues. Hypothetically, I don’t think we would be having the 3100 messages on Raids with Oblivion being the loot.

[Tyson.5160]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Nah, using that paradigm, raids would not have been worth the dev time.

If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

Nope, you don't get to separate those, it's a package deal.

They should have stuck with these. It’s exclusive raid loot.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Raid_standalone_weapons

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"AriaFiresong.7023" said:And the journals up to 3.4 all point back to this xera chick and what she was doing as being hella important, but storywise, to reach the xera chick, you gotta know what the matthias guy (some blip in one journal, you apparently learn hella more about him beforehand which changes everything) eventually did, and you gotta know what that sabetha girl is up to and why you're even dragged into this whole mess in the first place. To say nothing of the random monsters which only make sense in context of the story. It's actually kinda sad that a whole block of White Mantle stuff is sealed behind raids, and what was presented outside of that is "Here's some enemies with no real introduction oh they're dead moving on."

That's because this is a side "story" with barely any substance and of no real importance toward the main plot.

Still a gw2 story though. If the Raids has little to no story, then Raids should look more like a gladiator ring with unique boss characters. There is the challenge.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"AriaFiresong.7023" said:And the journals up to 3.4 all point back to this xera chick and what she was doing as being hella important, but storywise, to reach the xera chick, you gotta know what the matthias guy (some blip in one journal, you apparently learn hella more about him beforehand which changes everything) eventually did, and you gotta know what that sabetha girl is up to and why you're even dragged into this whole mess in the first place. To say nothing of the random monsters which only make sense in context of the story. It's actually kinda sad that a whole block of White Mantle stuff is sealed behind raids, and what was presented outside of that is "Here's some enemies with no real introduction oh they're dead moving on."

That's because this is a side "story" with barely any substance and of no real importance toward the main plot.

Still a gw2 story though. If the Raids has little to no story, then Raids should look more like a gladiator ring with unique boss characters. There is the challenge.

It's not so much that raids have no story. On the contrary it's some of the best story ever told in GW1 or GW2. But most of the reason isn't the story itself but how it's told. Threatening characters in game are threatening in game play and this makes the character and their presence as a fictional character interesting. He can instantly kill you. He hits like a truck. He has mechanics and abilities you absolutely have to pay attention to. And you'll spend a lot of time dying to him so he'll be on your mind for a while. And it makes him a more interesting character because of the difficulty.

Can anyone without looking at the wiki tell me who High Inquisitor Victor is? He's in Living World. Can you tell me where? Probably not. Because he's just a character you vaporize as you're playing without a thought and never think about again. And he's a very similar character to Matthias. But Matthias is so much more memorable just because of the fact that he's a difficult raid boss. And it's the same with Deimos and Xera and Dhuum.

So yeah, raids have story. They have excellent story. But they've made sure to keep it side story and you don't need to know what's going on when the White Mantle or Dhuum are brought up.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:I couldn't care less if other players are impressed or not. I'm impressed myself, and that's enough for me. And I'm impressed because I walked a long path. When I started raiding, I was a clueless scrub. And I didn't even know it.

Well good, that's as it should be, and nobody can take that away from you, even it other players end up at the same destination by taking a different path. Hopefully this reflects a healthy step forward, rather than just not realizing the point you were making.

@Cyninja.2954 said:That goes completely against peoples aim to improve at tasks and pleasure derived from that. I'm not sure I would agree to this at all.

People can choose for that to be their aim, and that's fine. The important thing is that the game should not assume that aim for them.

@Digit.1823 said:I think what most people debating for easy mode for raids are forgetting is developer intent.

Developer intent is irrelevant. This is a commercial product, it's about the players, not the developers. If the developers want to make games entirely about their own intent, then they should not charge money for them.

@Cyninja.2954 said:You'll have to do a lot better than that to make your point true. In most active activities people undertake for enjoyment, taking away some knowledge or skill is a very integral part to future enjoying said activity.

If players do improve their play over time, and if they do enjoy that, then thast's fine, but it isn't some universal goal. Some people enjoy playing in the moment, and if improvement happens, it happens. The point is, improvement shouldn't be necessary. I plan to improve in easy mode. I plan to clear the encounter on the first or second try, but I expect my next attempt to be even better, and the next better still. I expect to improve, and I expect to be happy about improving, What I do NOT enjoy is to have a situation in which I fail and fail and fail and fail until such time as I, or the group I'm in, "git gud" enough that we succeed. That is not remotely fun for me in any way, shape or form, EVER. Improvement is fine, but it shouldn't be a prerequisite.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

Or, subvert their expectations, and say "you can have raids if you like, but that by no means entitles you to exclusive access to any rewards. We

also

care about our

existing

players."

Nah, using that paradigm, raids would not have been worth the dev time. And "existing" players? What a joke. ANet as a studio has always cared more about the dedicated gamer than they have about the dilettante.

Then why did they make and spent three years operating a game for dilettantes? It would be like Candy Crush suddenly complaining about all the "filthy casuals."

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

Why do you believe that they should?

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Nah, using that paradigm, raids would not have been worth the dev time.

If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

Nope, you don't get to separate those, it's a package deal.

Of course it isn't. Those are two entirely separate things. You're just choosing to insist that they cannot be separated, like insisting that it's impossible to make a sandwich that is only peanut butter without jelly.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

The general desire in the thread from easy mode advocates is that raids should have story so everyone can see it and that all items in the game should be available from a reward track style feature that fills up no matter what style of content you're playing so you can always just play your favorite content.

That's bad design actually. It encourages grind and it burns out players faster. GW2 takes the opposite approach - it encourages players to play different kinds of content using exclusive rewards. Open world, personal story, instanced content, pvp modes, they all have their own goodies which encourage you to try new stuff. It's by far the better way to structure your rewards.

Then how do you explain the WvW and PvP reward tracks?

@mortrialus.3062 said:But you're definitely right. It's almost like Arenanet knows game design better than people who look at one aspect of a game and cry "Why does this get to be cool and enjoyable?! Nerf please."

Nobody is asking anyone to nerf any cool or enjoyable parts of the game.

@Feanor.2358 said:That's because this is a side "story" with barely any substance and of no real importance toward the main plot.

That's not your call to make.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Digit.1823 said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

If someone did this because of Raids and their rewards then the rest of the game obviously wasn't good enough for them and they would've done the same anyway.

If someone is only staying for raids, then the rest of the game wasn't good enough for them, why bother trying to keep them?

That logic goes both ways.

Because A + B > A for all positive values of B.

That assumed B has a net positive value.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

I wouldn't be opposed to making them more widely available. It wouldn't lessen the worth of said episodes to me in the slightest. If the worth of the episodes depended on their rewards being exclusive, it would just mean for me that the episodes themselves were really bad.

[Sykper.6583]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:The idea of someone being like "Wow I love GW2!" reading the patch notes, seeing the word raid and immediately uninstalling is a joke.

Not to be a naysayer, this game has brought perhaps the most diverse levels of players I've ever seen in an MMO together on top of a myriad of interests. I have no doubt that a very....very small amount of players, more than the usual you would see from such a change, left literally because Raids were added as an aspect.

However, this does not remotely compare to the gain and/or the retention of current players courtesy of raids being implemented, which is exactly why raids were made.

[TexZero.7910]

@"Tyson.5160" said:Still a gw2 story though. If the Raids has little to no story, then Raids should look more like a gladiator ring with unique boss characters. There is the challenge.

They do. Infact i've yet to see a boss not in a ring or box.

Also, what little story there is isn't a "GW2" story. The majority of them are GW1 stories that happen to play out in GW2's timeline. The only thing that is "GW2" is the rescue of Bennet but everyone can see Bennets story in LS just by talking to him.

[STIHL.2489]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Digit.1823 said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

Considering overall revenue is up, over all players playing is up, the game is being praised left and right for being one of the best available MMOs, I'd say some people left and others joined and the game is in a better state overall. Seems fine no?

All of that could be vastly attributed to PoF.

That bland.. super easy.. nothing to do Expansion.. saving the game.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Digit.1823 said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

If someone did this because of Raids and their rewards then the rest of the game obviously wasn't good enough for them and they would've done the same anyway.

If someone is only staying for raids, then the rest of the game wasn't good enough for them, why bother trying to keep them?

That logic goes both ways.

Because A + B > A for all positive values of B.

That is why they should put in an Easy Mode.. to make as many of their players as happy as they can.. because A + B > A.

[STIHL.2489]

@Sykper.6583 said:However, this does not remotely compare to the gain and/or the retention of current players courtesy of raids being implemented, which is exactly why raids were made.

Anyone that would legit quit if they put in an easy mode raid, the game is better off without, and would be about the same percent that quit because they put raids in to start with.. most likely a lot less.

[mortrialus.3062]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Digit.1823 said:And anyone saying they dislike raids so much but are still forcing themselves through the content because they like the unique skins and want those, congratulations. Anet has accomplished exactly what their intent was (see there's that word again, intent). By giving unique rewards to the game mode that was intended to be the most challenging they have given you something you want so bad that you're willing to step out of your little safe space cocoon, and made you a better player for it. They made you play raids. And that is fine.

So what about all the players that opted out of resentment and anger to never spend any money on this game again, or just outright quit?

If someone did this because of Raids and their rewards then the rest of the game obviously wasn't good enough for them and they would've done the same anyway.

If someone is only staying for raids, then the rest of the game wasn't good enough for them, why bother trying to keep them?

That logic goes both ways.

Because A + B > A for all positive values of B.

That is why they should put in an Easy Mode.. to make as many of their players as happy as they can.. because A + B > A.

E is a negative value

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:I couldn't care less if other players are impressed or not. I'm impressed myself, and that's enough for me. And I'm impressed because I walked a long path. When I started raiding, I was a clueless scrub. And I didn't even know it.

Well good, that's as it should be, and nobody can take that away from you, even it

other

players end up at the same destination by taking a

different

path. Hopefully this reflects a healthy step forward, rather than just not realizing the point you were making.

@Cyninja.2954 said:That goes completely against peoples aim to improve at tasks and pleasure derived from that. I'm not sure I would agree to this at all.

People

can choose for that to be

their

aim, and that's fine. The important thing is that the game should not assume that aim

for

them.

@Digit.1823 said:I think what most people debating for easy mode for raids are forgetting is developer intent.

Developer intent is irrelevant. This is a commercial product, it's about the players, not the developers. If the developers want to make games entirely about their own intent, then they should not charge money for them.

@Cyninja.2954 said:You'll have to do a lot better than that to make your point true. In most active activities people undertake for enjoyment, taking away some knowledge or skill is a very integral part to future enjoying said activity.

If players

do

improve their play over time, and if they

do

enjoy that, then thast's fine, but it isn't some universal goal. Some people enjoy playing in the moment, and if improvement happens, it happens. The point is, improvement shouldn't be

necessary.

I plan to improve in easy mode. I plan to clear the encounter on the first or second try, but I expect my next attempt to be even better, and the next better still. I expect to improve, and I expect to be happy about improving, What I do NOT enjoy is to have a situation in which I fail and fail and fail and fail until such time as I, or the group I'm in, "git gud" enough that we succeed. That is not remotely fun for me in any way, shape or form, EVER. Improvement is fine, but it shouldn't be a prerequisite.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:It's not a rule. It's an expectation that's baked into the subculture. The only way to bypass that would be to not adopt raids, or other harder instanced content, in the first place.

Or, subvert their expectations, and say "you can have raids if you like, but that by no means entitles you to exclusive access to any rewards. We

also

care about our

existing

players."

Nah, using that paradigm, raids would not have been worth the dev time. And "existing" players? What a joke. ANet as a studio has always cared more about the dedicated gamer than they have about the dilettante.

Then why did they make and spent three years operating a game for dilettantes? It would be like Candy Crush suddenly complaining about all the "filthy casuals."

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

Why do you believe that they should?

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Nah, using that paradigm, raids would not have been worth the dev time.

If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

Nope, you don't get to separate those, it's a package deal.

Of course it isn't. Those are two entirely separate things. You're just choosing to insist that they cannot be separated, like insisting that it's impossible to make a sandwich that is

only

peanut butter without jelly.

@Feanor.2358 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:If raids without exclusive rewards aren't worth dev time, it means they exist primarily as a source of exclusivity. Not a source of challenging content.

You are saying that Living World episodes shouldn't have exclusive rewards?

The general desire in the thread from easy mode advocates is that raids should have story so everyone can see it and that all items in the game should be available from a reward track style feature that fills up no matter what style of content you're playing so you can always just play your favorite content.

That's bad design actually. It encourages grind and it burns out players faster. GW2 takes the opposite approach - it encourages players to play different kinds of content using exclusive rewards. Open world, personal story, instanced content, pvp modes, they all have their own goodies which encourage you to try new stuff. It's by far the better way to structure your rewards.

Then how do you explain the WvW and PvP reward tracks?Player vs Player like Conquest and WvW are played for fundamentally different reasons than PvE.

@mortrialus.3062 said:But you're definitely right. It's almost like Arenanet knows game design better than people who look at one aspect of a game and cry "Why does this get to be cool and enjoyable?! Nerf please."

Nobody is asking anyone to nerf any cool or enjoyable parts of the game.Easy mode is literally nerfing the content.