Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Sarrs.4831]

@Ohoni.6057 said:Normal mode raiders who want to be lazy and just grind easy mode instead?

Okay so I'm not sure how to really cut this one up.

On the one hand, this would be a genuine compromise between each position. It would get you drastically closer to what you want. You can grind up the gold you'd need to pay a group to carry you through the content once, which would be a one-time deal, and cost much much less than it would cost to do currently. You'd then be able to progress towards your goal in easy mode.Alternatively, if you're actually just interested in the content in an easy mode, you could just do the easy mode and not care about the rewards.

On the second hand, do you think there's a genuine problem with 'normal mode raiders who want to be lazy and just grind easy mode instead'? Do you think that normal mode raiders wouldn't go down to easy mode and grind extra LI? If the modes aren't exclusionary then there's no reason they shouldn't if the rewards are actually worth doing (and if they aren't worth doing you'll just be back here to whinge anyway).

On the third hand

@Ohoni.6057 said:want to be lazy and just grind easy modeYour words, not mine.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Ohoni.6057 said:You made a claim and then expected to not have to prove it. How the heck is mentioning burden of proof a non-sequitur?What are you even talking about? Some other conversation?

No?

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 saidBut we aren't talking about a tournament. There

is

no "first place" or "second place" here. People who like raiding are not "higher ranked" than people who don't. There is

no reason

why they should have

exclusive

access to

anything

.Pretty strong statement there man. You sure you don't want to tone it down a little? It'll be impossible to defend that.

Forget? You expected me to take on the burden of proof. Nah, you made the claim.

[Even if it was irrelevant,] [how the heck would it be a non-sequitur?]

There's a name for something "irrelevant". You could just call it 'irrelevant', or you could call it a red herring. It is not however, a non-sequitur. Again, you have demonstrated that you don't know the definitions of the logical fallacies you're accusing people of.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

Surprisingly, yes. I'm FAR better player now than I was before I started to raid. I'm not only better at executing team tactics that let me focus entirely on dps. I'm also much better at maintaining decent damage output in sub-optimal conditions. Which makes me better at handling mobs on my own, doing damage in WvW and probably PvP, if I played that. I have much better understanding of my class and I react much faster, and much more accurately. And all thanks to raiding. Because there's no other content that pushes me to improve as much as raids.

You either did not play WvW, or were a tag chaster if that content did not teach you to improve your play and build.

[STIHL.2489]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:From all this talk, it sounds to me like raids are kind of a pain in the kitten, and maybe not every players is interested in putting up with that sort of pain in the kitten nonsense all the time, and just wants a more casual, "pick up and play" experience, and maybe if that experience were available, they would be more happy playing the game than they ever would by just accepting the pain in the kitten nonsense. That sound accurate to you guys?

Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Oh wait, you actually don't care about picking up and play but only the rewards associated with it which too are heavily gated behind those remaining 95% of the PVE in form of story, legendary, collections, map rewards, adventures, etc.

I tried to explain this, but a lot of people will enjoy this game for it's pick up and play environment, so they will keep trying more of it, and eventually get to raids.. rather quickly too I might add, as there is no hard gate to that content. (another design flaw if you ask me)

And they will either be able to do it.. or they won't.

Those that won't will go like this..

Fuck that Content > Fuck the People who Do it > Fuck this Game.

anyone that thinks otherwise is living in fantasy land.

[Sarrs.4831]

@STIHL.2489 said:You either did not play WvW, or were a tag chaster if that content did not teach you to improve your play and build.

That's not what he said

[Tyson.5160]

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You made a claim and then expected to not have to prove it. How the heck is mentioning burden of proof a non-sequitur?What are you even talking about? Some other conversation?

No?

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 saidBut we aren't talking about a tournament. There

is

no "first place" or "second place" here. People who like raiding are not "higher ranked" than people who don't. There is

no reason

why they should have

exclusive

access to

anything

.Pretty strong statement there man. You sure you don't want to tone it down a little? It'll be impossible to defend that.

Forget? You expected me to take on the burden of proof. Nah, you made the claim.

[Even if it was irrelevant,] [how the heck would it be a non-sequitur?]

There's a name for something "irrelevant". You could just call it 'irrelevant', or you could call it a red herring. It is not however, a non-sequitur. Again, you have demonstrated that you don't know the definitions of the logical fallacies you're accusing people of.

I read the thread, Team, he got ya. I mean it’s literally the definition and above post showed that. You also said that you just have these arguments out of spite.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You made a claim and then expected to not have to prove it. How the heck is mentioning burden of proof a non-sequitur?What are you even talking about? Some other conversation?

No?

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 saidBut we aren't talking about a tournament. There

is

no "first place" or "second place" here. People who like raiding are not "higher ranked" than people who don't. There is

no reason

why they should have

exclusive

access to

anything

.Pretty strong statement there man. You sure you don't want to tone it down a little? It'll be impossible to defend that.

Forget? You expected me to take on the burden of proof. Nah, you made the claim.

[Even if it was irrelevant,] [how the heck would it be a non-sequitur?]

There's a name for something "irrelevant". You could just call it 'irrelevant', or you could call it a red herring. It is not however, a non-sequitur. Again, you have demonstrated that you don't know the definitions of the logical fallacies you're accusing people of.

I read the thread, Team, he got ya. I mean it’s literally the definition and above post showed that. You also said that you just have these arguments out of spite.

I see, it's a common mistake to make. Non-sequitur and red herring are not the same thing. He is thinking of a red herring when he says it's simply "irrelevant", and he is thinking of a strawman when he thinks i'm not reading his posts. What they aren't is a non-sequitur. That is when you draw a conclusion from a premise that "doesn't follow" (literal definition), i.e. just doesn't make sense.

[Tyson.5160]

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You made a claim and then expected to not have to prove it. How the heck is mentioning burden of proof a non-sequitur?What are you even talking about? Some other conversation?

No?

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 saidBut we aren't talking about a tournament. There

is

no "first place" or "second place" here. People who like raiding are not "higher ranked" than people who don't. There is

no reason

why they should have

exclusive

access to

anything

.Pretty strong statement there man. You sure you don't want to tone it down a little? It'll be impossible to defend that.

Forget? You expected me to take on the burden of proof. Nah, you made the claim.

[Even if it was irrelevant,] [how the heck would it be a non-sequitur?]

There's a name for something "irrelevant". You could just call it 'irrelevant', or you could call it a red herring. It is not however, a non-sequitur. Again, you have demonstrated that you don't know the definitions of the logical fallacies you're accusing people of.

I read the thread, Team, he got ya. I mean it’s literally the definition and above post showed that. You also said that you just have these arguments out of spite.

I see, it's a common mistake to make. Non-sequitur and red herring are not the same thing. He is thinking of a red herring when he says it's simply "irrelevant", and he is thinking of a strawman when he thinks i'm not reading his posts. What they aren't is a non-sequitur. That is when you draw a conclusion from a premise that "doesn't follow" (literal definition), i.e. just doesn't make sense.

I mean this is what this thread has come down to now and I’m guilty for it as well. It’s not a discussion regarding raids anymore. It’s a forum post about arguments and picking crap apart that at the end of the day, mean nothing.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You made a claim and then expected to not have to prove it. How the heck is mentioning burden of proof a non-sequitur?What are you even talking about? Some other conversation?

No?

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 saidBut we aren't talking about a tournament. There

is

no "first place" or "second place" here. People who like raiding are not "higher ranked" than people who don't. There is

no reason

why they should have

exclusive

access to

anything

.Pretty strong statement there man. You sure you don't want to tone it down a little? It'll be impossible to defend that.

Forget? You expected me to take on the burden of proof. Nah, you made the claim.

[Even if it was irrelevant,] [how the heck would it be a non-sequitur?]

There's a name for something "irrelevant". You could just call it 'irrelevant', or you could call it a red herring. It is not however, a non-sequitur. Again, you have demonstrated that you don't know the definitions of the logical fallacies you're accusing people of.

I read the thread, Team, he got ya. I mean it’s literally the definition and above post showed that. You also said that you just have these arguments out of spite.

I see, it's a common mistake to make. Non-sequitur and red herring are not the same thing. He is thinking of a red herring when he says it's simply "irrelevant", and he is thinking of a strawman when he thinks i'm not reading his posts. What they aren't is a non-sequitur. That is when you draw a conclusion from a premise that "doesn't follow" (literal definition), i.e. just doesn't make sense.

I mean this is what this thread has come down to now and I’m guilty for it as well. It’s not a discussion regarding raids anymore. It’s a forum post about arguments and picking crap apart that at the end of the day, mean nothing.

You're right about that and I share the blame, but i would like to point out the irony that it was Ohoni that started this whole accusing people of logical fallacies trend. And he wasn't even doing it correctly.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Sarrs.4831" said:On the one hand, this would be a genuine compromise between each position. It would get you drastically closer to what you want. You can grind up the gold you'd need to[ pay a group to carry you through the content once,]

Because buying raids is a non-starter. One thing I will NEVER do is cheat.

If you can accept the idea of a player paying to run through each normal mode encounter one time and that's all he'd need, then why would you be opposed to him beating the easy mode bosses under his own power? Is it because he didn't pay you for "permission" to have his raid armor? Are you running a tollbooth now?

If it's about the gold cost, I would rather pay twice as much gold directly to ANet than it would cost to pay a raider to carry me through the various normal mode encounters.

On the second hand, do you think there's a genuine problem with 'normal mode raiders who want to be lazy and just grind easy mode instead'?

I don't, let them play how they want, I just see that as a tertiary concern in this situation, the goal should be in providing the system needed by those who don't currenctly have any alternative.

If the modes aren't exclusionary then there's no reason they shouldn't if the rewards are actually worth doing (and if they aren't worth doing you'll just be back here to whinge anyway).

It really depends on how they handle it. My balance expectation is that easy mode fights would take just as long, and reward 1/3 as much, so unless a raider has time to do all the current encounters and the easy versions, it would not be worth his time to do the easy ones. If it was decided that they don't want players to be doing all of both, they could have a split lockout, like if you complete normal, you get no unique rewards out of easy for that week, and if you beat easy, you only get 2/3 the rewards for hard.

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:You made a claim and then expected to not have to prove it. How the heck is mentioning burden of proof a non-sequitur?What are you even talking about? Some other conversation?

No?

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 saidBut we aren't talking about a tournament. There

is

no "first place" or "second place" here. People who like raiding are not "higher ranked" than people who don't. There is

no reason

why they should have

exclusive

access to

anything

.Pretty strong statement there man. You sure you don't want to tone it down a little? It'll be impossible to defend that.

Forget? You expected me to take on the burden of proof. Nah, you made the claim.

There wasn't any statement of fact in there, therefore no "burden of proof." You can't "prove" an opinion. You said I "couldn't defend it," but then you never attacked it, so I had nothing to defend against. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[Even if it was irrelevant,] [how the heck would it be a non-sequitur?]

There's a name for something "irrelevant". You could just call it 'irrelevant', or you could call it a red herring. It is not however, a non-sequitur. Again, you have demonstrated that you don't know the definitions of the logical fallacies you're accusing people of.

Non-sequitur applied to the subject at hand, so that's the term I chose to use. You do you though.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Raid players fighting against a raid boss may not be able to kill if the first time, but they can go in over and over again, until they get it right. Because the boss doesn't change. This approach doesn't work for pvp modes, because opponents

do

change.

Yeah, no. Opponents do change

when they have to

. So long as they're winning, they'll do mostly the same. Just like a raid boss. So the same approach works equally well.Raid boss won't change his behaviour patterns because you have improved. It won't change them even when it's way past the point it's clear they aren't working anymore. Let's be honest, most of the raid bosses, if there was a player at the keys, not a script, would demolish 90% of experienced raid groups. In most cases all that would be required to massively up the fight difficulty would be for said player to be able to merely manually change boss fixate.

Neither do players, not really. Usually when one group is mostly winning - not even winning all the time - against another, they will keep applying the same tactics, because they worked. If something changes and the second group starts winning, most often the first group will disband instead of trying to figure out a new tactic on the fly. I've seen this all too often in WvW. More often than not, players just want to win easily. That's why bandwagon servers exist.

As for the second part, I actually disagree. Raid bosses are ridiculously overpowered in order to create a challenge, but their attacks have huge cooldowns and in many cases are de facto attack chains. So long as they remain like that, a player actually can't hope to defeat an experienced group, not in the long run. Sure, they'll have the element of surprise at the beginning. Sure, the raid group will definitely have to figure out a new tactic. Sure, some groups won't bother, just like in the above scenario. But those who decide to take the challenge will end up defeating it just as easily.

[Cyninja.2954]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:From all this talk, it sounds to me like raids are kind of a pain in the kitten, and maybe not every players is interested in putting up with that sort of pain in the kitten nonsense all the time, and just wants a more casual, "pick up and play" experience, and maybe if that experience were available, they would be more happy playing the game than they ever would by just accepting the pain in the kitten nonsense. That sound accurate to you guys?

Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Oh wait, you actually don't care about picking up and play but only the rewards associated with it which too are heavily gated behind those remaining 95% of the PVE in form of story, legendary, collections, map rewards, adventures, etc.

I tried to explain this, but a lot of people will enjoy this game for it's pick up and play environment, so they will keep trying more of it, and eventually get to raids.. rather quickly too I might add, as there is no hard gate to that content. (another design flaw if you ask me)

And they will either be able to do it.. or they won't.

Those that won't will go like this..

kitten that Content > kitten the People who Do it > kitten this Game.

anyone that thinks otherwise is living in fantasy land.

That's your assumption and pure speculation. You have 0 way to back this up. On the contrary, many MMOs that went the ultra casual path have reverted from this step even WoW BECAUSE of severe player hemorrhage. I'll repeat what I said multiple times by now, let Arenanet figure this out and stop pretending as though your assumptions are set in stone.

GW2 on launch was exactly what you are describing and (granted there were multiple other issues as well)and people were bored 2 weeks in. Turns out, letting people gear up in less than 1-2 weeks (that's how long it took for dedicated players to get their first exotic set together, this goes way faster now btw) was catastrophic as far as player retention goes.

Providing a balance for as many different types of players is in the best interest of a developer, unless you are specifically designing for a niche market (like Eve Online for example, but even that game has introduced many casual elements by now).

What you want is for GW2 to revert to a more niche game, which no one can blame you for, it is a valid complaint. You can't blame others though for wanting the game to reach an as big audience as possible though.

Yet all of this has been pointed out multiple times, and we are back at point 1 and round and round it goes.

[STIHL.2489]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:From all this talk, it sounds to me like raids are kind of a pain in the kitten, and maybe not every players is interested in putting up with that sort of pain in the kitten nonsense all the time, and just wants a more casual, "pick up and play" experience, and maybe if that experience were available, they would be more happy playing the game than they ever would by just accepting the pain in the kitten nonsense. That sound accurate to you guys?

Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Oh wait, you actually don't care about picking up and play but only the rewards associated with it which too are heavily gated behind those remaining 95% of the PVE in form of story, legendary, collections, map rewards, adventures, etc.

I tried to explain this, but a lot of people will enjoy this game for it's pick up and play environment, so they will keep trying more of it, and eventually get to raids.. rather quickly too I might add, as there is no hard gate to that content. (another design flaw if you ask me)

And they will either be able to do it.. or they won't.

Those that won't will go like this..

kitten that Content > kitten the People who Do it > kitten this Game.

anyone that thinks otherwise is living in fantasy land.

That's your assumption and pure speculation. You have 0 way to back this up. On the contrary, many MMOs that went the ultra casual path have reverted from this step even WoW BECAUSE of severe player hemorrhage. I'll repeat what I said multiple times by now, let Arenanet figure this out and stop pretending as though your assumptions are set in stone.

GW2 on launch was exactly what you are describing and (granted there were multiple other issues as well)and people were bored 2 weeks in. Turns out, letting people gear up in less than 1-2 weeks (that's how long it took for dedicated players to get their first exotic set together, this goes way faster now btw) was catastrophic as far as player retention goes.

Providing a balance for as many different types of players is in the best interest of a developer, unless you are specifically designing for a niche market (like Eve Online for example, but even that game has introduced many casual elements by now).

What you want is for GW2 to revert to a more niche game, which no one can blame you for, it is a valid complaint. You can't blame others though for wanting the game to reach an as big audience as possible though.

Yet all of this has been pointed out multiple times, and we are back at point 1 and round and round it goes.

I have plenty of ways to back it up.. I mean.. just look around, did you miss all the topics being made complaining about raids, this is not the only topic (hence the {Merged} at the end of it),. and I am not the only one making a point they are not good for the game, in fact, you will see new people chime in from time to time, and then the generic attack pack of raid supporters will descend upon them, like they do in reddit, shout them down or down vote their posts into oblivion, and pretend like there is no problem if they can silence any dissent. Much in the same way Anet would often try to silence posts about cheating, Wake Up Call, it does it make the actual problem go away, it makes it worse .

But you know.. believe whatever you want. WoW has it's staunch supporters that love the changes as well.

[Cyninja.2954]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:From all this talk, it sounds to me like raids are kind of a pain in the kitten, and maybe not every players is interested in putting up with that sort of pain in the kitten nonsense all the time, and just wants a more casual, "pick up and play" experience, and maybe if that experience were available, they would be more happy playing the game than they ever would by just accepting the pain in the kitten nonsense. That sound accurate to you guys?

Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Oh wait, you actually don't care about picking up and play but only the rewards associated with it which too are heavily gated behind those remaining 95% of the PVE in form of story, legendary, collections, map rewards, adventures, etc.

I tried to explain this, but a lot of people will enjoy this game for it's pick up and play environment, so they will keep trying more of it, and eventually get to raids.. rather quickly too I might add, as there is no hard gate to that content. (another design flaw if you ask me)

And they will either be able to do it.. or they won't.

Those that won't will go like this..

kitten that Content > kitten the People who Do it > kitten this Game.

anyone that thinks otherwise is living in fantasy land.

That's your assumption and pure speculation. You have 0 way to back this up. On the contrary, many MMOs that went the ultra casual path have reverted from this step even WoW BECAUSE of severe player hemorrhage. I'll repeat what I said multiple times by now, let Arenanet figure this out and stop pretending as though your assumptions are set in stone.

GW2 on launch was exactly what you are describing and (granted there were multiple other issues as well)and people were bored 2 weeks in. Turns out, letting people gear up in less than 1-2 weeks (that's how long it took for dedicated players to get their first exotic set together, this goes way faster now btw) was catastrophic as far as player retention goes.

Providing a balance for as many different types of players is in the best interest of a developer, unless you are specifically designing for a niche market (like Eve Online for example, but even that game has introduced many casual elements by now).

What you want is for GW2 to revert to a more niche game, which no one can blame you for, it is a valid complaint. You can't blame others though for wanting the game to reach an as big audience as possible though.

Yet all of this has been pointed out multiple times, and we are back at point 1 and round and round it goes.

I have plenty of ways to back it up.. I mean.. just look around, did you miss all the topics being made complaining about raids, this is not the only topic (hence the {Merged} at the end of it),. and I am not the only one making a point they are not good for the game, in fact, you will see new people chime in from time to time, and then the generic attack pack of raid supporters will descend upon them, like they do in reddit, shout them down or down vote their posts into oblivion, and pretend like there is no problem if they can silence any dissent. Much in the same way Anet would often try to silence posts about cheating, Wake Up Call,

it does it make the actual problem go away, it makes it worse

.

But you know.. believe whatever you want. WoW has it's staunch supporters that love the changes as well.

Sounds good, look at the up side, when GW2 has failed in 3-6 months you can claim moral and intellectual victory while playing your new MMO.

Until then I'll stick to my opinion, analysis and approach (that being that the game is developing great and putting my faith in Arenanet) while ignoring your very subjective view.

[STIHL.2489]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:From all this talk, it sounds to me like raids are kind of a pain in the kitten, and maybe not every players is interested in putting up with that sort of pain in the kitten nonsense all the time, and just wants a more casual, "pick up and play" experience, and maybe if that experience were available, they would be more happy playing the game than they ever would by just accepting the pain in the kitten nonsense. That sound accurate to you guys?

Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Oh wait, you actually don't care about picking up and play but only the rewards associated with it which too are heavily gated behind those remaining 95% of the PVE in form of story, legendary, collections, map rewards, adventures, etc.

I tried to explain this, but a lot of people will enjoy this game for it's pick up and play environment, so they will keep trying more of it, and eventually get to raids.. rather quickly too I might add, as there is no hard gate to that content. (another design flaw if you ask me)

And they will either be able to do it.. or they won't.

Those that won't will go like this..

kitten that Content > kitten the People who Do it > kitten this Game.

anyone that thinks otherwise is living in fantasy land.

That's your assumption and pure speculation. You have 0 way to back this up. On the contrary, many MMOs that went the ultra casual path have reverted from this step even WoW BECAUSE of severe player hemorrhage. I'll repeat what I said multiple times by now, let Arenanet figure this out and stop pretending as though your assumptions are set in stone.

GW2 on launch was exactly what you are describing and (granted there were multiple other issues as well)and people were bored 2 weeks in. Turns out, letting people gear up in less than 1-2 weeks (that's how long it took for dedicated players to get their first exotic set together, this goes way faster now btw) was catastrophic as far as player retention goes.

Providing a balance for as many different types of players is in the best interest of a developer, unless you are specifically designing for a niche market (like Eve Online for example, but even that game has introduced many casual elements by now).

What you want is for GW2 to revert to a more niche game, which no one can blame you for, it is a valid complaint. You can't blame others though for wanting the game to reach an as big audience as possible though.

Yet all of this has been pointed out multiple times, and we are back at point 1 and round and round it goes.

I have plenty of ways to back it up.. I mean.. just look around, did you miss all the topics being made complaining about raids, this is not the only topic (hence the {Merged} at the end of it),. and I am not the only one making a point they are not good for the game, in fact, you will see new people chime in from time to time, and then the generic attack pack of raid supporters will descend upon them, like they do in reddit, shout them down or down vote their posts into oblivion, and pretend like there is no problem if they can silence any dissent. Much in the same way Anet would often try to silence posts about cheating, Wake Up Call,

it does it make the actual problem go away, it makes it worse

.

But you know.. believe whatever you want. WoW has it's staunch supporters that love the changes as well.

Sounds good, look at the up side, when GW2 has failed in 3-6 months you can claim moral and intellectual victory while playing your new MMO.

Oh I am sure.. just like anyone who can't see past their nose and their own self serving rewards would listen to anyone that disagrees with them. even if they watched the same thing happen in a dozen other games.

Edit Added:

for fun sake, lets see how right I am, GW2, in not going to bottom out in 6 moths, I'd bet.. they still have at least another year of higher sales, (depending on what other games get released), and then by the end of next year.. we can expect to see a bottom out effect.. I predict, that next quarter will be closer to the HoT Post numbers (around 15) (Assuming the Bless infusion does not vault them too much), and they will step down again.. I would say to around 10 ish.. and we will return to a slow steady decline for the next few quarters. Which.. if they don't put out another expansion we can expect another drop.. if they do.. we will see a typical spike and then another drop off.

Tell you what.. save that.. and call me in a year and see if I am right.

Until then I'll stick to my opinion, analysis and approach (that being that the game is developing great and putting my faith in Arenanet while ignoring your very subjective view.

WoW still has more active Subs accounts then Anet has total sales.. so. to each their own on faith and love of their game.

[Cyninja.2954]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Ohoni.6057" said:From all this talk, it sounds to me like raids are kind of a pain in the kitten, and maybe not every players is interested in putting up with that sort of pain in the kitten nonsense all the time, and just wants a more casual, "pick up and play" experience, and maybe if that experience were available, they would be more happy playing the game than they ever would by just accepting the pain in the kitten nonsense. That sound accurate to you guys?

Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Oh wait, you actually don't care about picking up and play but only the rewards associated with it which too are heavily gated behind those remaining 95% of the PVE in form of story, legendary, collections, map rewards, adventures, etc.

I tried to explain this, but a lot of people will enjoy this game for it's pick up and play environment, so they will keep trying more of it, and eventually get to raids.. rather quickly too I might add, as there is no hard gate to that content. (another design flaw if you ask me)

And they will either be able to do it.. or they won't.

Those that won't will go like this..

kitten that Content > kitten the People who Do it > kitten this Game.

anyone that thinks otherwise is living in fantasy land.

That's your assumption and pure speculation. You have 0 way to back this up. On the contrary, many MMOs that went the ultra casual path have reverted from this step even WoW BECAUSE of severe player hemorrhage. I'll repeat what I said multiple times by now, let Arenanet figure this out and stop pretending as though your assumptions are set in stone.

GW2 on launch was exactly what you are describing and (granted there were multiple other issues as well)and people were bored 2 weeks in. Turns out, letting people gear up in less than 1-2 weeks (that's how long it took for dedicated players to get their first exotic set together, this goes way faster now btw) was catastrophic as far as player retention goes.

Providing a balance for as many different types of players is in the best interest of a developer, unless you are specifically designing for a niche market (like Eve Online for example, but even that game has introduced many casual elements by now).

What you want is for GW2 to revert to a more niche game, which no one can blame you for, it is a valid complaint. You can't blame others though for wanting the game to reach an as big audience as possible though.

Yet all of this has been pointed out multiple times, and we are back at point 1 and round and round it goes.

I have plenty of ways to back it up.. I mean.. just look around, did you miss all the topics being made complaining about raids, this is not the only topic (hence the {Merged} at the end of it),. and I am not the only one making a point they are not good for the game, in fact, you will see new people chime in from time to time, and then the generic attack pack of raid supporters will descend upon them, like they do in reddit, shout them down or down vote their posts into oblivion, and pretend like there is no problem if they can silence any dissent. Much in the same way Anet would often try to silence posts about cheating, Wake Up Call,

it does it make the actual problem go away, it makes it worse

.

But you know.. believe whatever you want. WoW has it's staunch supporters that love the changes as well.

Sounds good, look at the up side, when GW2 has failed in 3-6 months you can claim moral and intellectual victory while playing your new MMO.

Oh I am sure.. just like anyone who can't see past their nose and their own self serving rewards would listen to anyone that disagrees with them. even if they watched the same thing happen in a dozen other games.

You mean unlike your personal self serving agenda right? Sorry your doom and gloom doesn't stick on me. Game is developing great and your pessimistic view (which has been you stick for as long as you have been active on the forums) just isn't panning out so don't be suprised if we don't all take your assumptions, opinions or analysis as pure gold. According to you this game would have died years back and yet your Jehovah’s Witness scenarios haven't happened, who knows maybe next time.

@STIHL.2489 said:Edit Added:

for fun sake, lets see how right I am, GW2, in not going to bottom out in 6 moths, I'd bet.. they still have at least another year of higher sales, (depending on what other games get released), and then by the end of next year.. we can expect to see a bottom out effect.. I predict, that next quarter will be closer to the HoT Post numbers (around 15) (Assuming the Bless infusion does not vault them too much), and they will step down again.. I would say to around 10 ish.. and we will return to a slow steady decline for the next few quarters. Which.. if they don't put out another expansion we can expect another drop.. if they do.. we will see a typical spike and then another drop off.

Tell you what.. save that.. and call me in a year and see if I am right.

Considering a WoW expansion is scheduled for August, a drop in numbers is to be expected, so not sure what you want to prove?

If they have another year of solid performance that's fine, we are due to get another expansion after Living World Season 4 in about a year. What is more interesting is to look back and at those numbers, which have been absolutely solid if NCSofts earning reports are to be believed.

@STIHL.2489 said:

Until then I'll stick to my opinion, analysis and approach (that being that the game is developing great and putting my faith in Arenanet while ignoring your very subjective view.

WoW still has more active

Subs

accounts then Anet has total sales.. so. to each their own on faith and love of their game.

Sure it does, WoW has more active subs than any other MMO on the market due to multiple effects. I doubt that is going to change for a long time and I sincerely hope Arenanet doesn't go try be the bazillionth "WoW killer" with GW2. I'd rather they do a great job at GW2 and let WoW be WoW.

[maddoctor.2738]

@STIHL.2489 said:Tell you what.. save that.. and call me in a year and see if I am right.

And adding an easy mode for Raids would solve all those problems? Right?

[Astralporing.1957]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Raid players fighting against a raid boss may not be able to kill if the first time, but they can go in over and over again, until they get it right. Because the boss doesn't change. This approach doesn't work for pvp modes, because opponents

do

change.

Yeah, no. Opponents do change

when they have to

. So long as they're winning, they'll do mostly the same. Just like a raid boss. So the same approach works equally well.Raid boss won't change his behaviour patterns because you have improved. It won't change them even when it's way past the point it's clear they aren't working anymore. Let's be honest, most of the raid bosses, if there was a player at the keys, not a script, would demolish 90% of experienced raid groups. In most cases all that would be required to massively up the fight difficulty would be for said player to be able to merely manually change boss fixate.

Neither do players, not really. Usually when one group is

mostly

winning - not even winning all the time - against another, they will keep applying the same tactics, because they worked. If something changes and the second group starts winning, most often the first group will disband instead of trying to figure out a new tactic on the fly. I've seen this all too often in WvW. More often than not, players just want to win easily. That's why bandwagon servers exist.Congratulations. You have just equalled raid bosses with the

lowest

tier of pvp players.

@Feanor.2358 said:As for the second part, I actually disagree. Raid bosses are ridiculously overpowered in order to create a challenge, but their attacks have huge cooldowns and in many cases are de facto attack chains. So long as they remain like that, a player actually can't hope to defeat an experienced group, not in the long run. Sure, they'll have the element of surprise at the beginning. Sure, the raid group will definitely have to figure out a new tactic. Sure, some groups won't bother, just like in the above scenario. But those who decide to take the challenge will end up defeating it just as easily.That's why i mentioned a percentage. It may not be 90% (depending on boss), but it would still eliminate a majority of raiders. Yes, some, the best ones, those that usually create strategies for new bosses, would be able to evolve and execute new approaches. Others would

not

do so fine, though.

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Raid players fighting against a raid boss may not be able to kill if the first time, but they can go in over and over again, until they get it right. Because the boss doesn't change. This approach doesn't work for pvp modes, because opponents

do

change.

Yeah, no. Opponents do change

when they have to

. So long as they're winning, they'll do mostly the same. Just like a raid boss. So the same approach works equally well.Raid boss won't change his behaviour patterns because you have improved. It won't change them even when it's way past the point it's clear they aren't working anymore. Let's be honest, most of the raid bosses, if there was a player at the keys, not a script, would demolish 90% of experienced raid groups. In most cases all that would be required to massively up the fight difficulty would be for said player to be able to merely manually change boss fixate.

Neither do players, not really. Usually when one group is

mostly

winning - not even winning all the time - against another, they will keep applying the same tactics, because they worked. If something changes and the second group starts winning, most often the first group will disband instead of trying to figure out a new tactic on the fly. I've seen this all too often in WvW. More often than not, players just want to win easily. That's why bandwagon servers exist.Congratulations. You have just equalled raid bosses with the

lowest

tier of pvp players.

@Feanor.2358 said:As for the second part, I actually disagree. Raid bosses are ridiculously overpowered in order to create a challenge, but their attacks have huge cooldowns and in many cases are de facto attack chains. So long as they remain like that, a player actually can't hope to defeat an experienced group, not in the long run. Sure, they'll have the element of surprise at the beginning. Sure, the raid group will definitely have to figure out a new tactic. Sure, some groups won't bother, just like in the above scenario. But those who decide to take the challenge will end up defeating it just as easily.That's why i mentioned a percentage. It may not be 90% (depending on boss), but it would still eliminate a majority of raiders. Yes, some, the best ones, those that usually create strategies for new bosses, would be able to evolve and execute new approaches. Others would

not

do so fine, though.

No I didn't, and no, it wouldn't. It would eliminate the beginners only.

[STIHL.2489]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:From all this talk, it sounds to me like raids are kind of a pain in the kitten, and maybe not every players is interested in putting up with that sort of pain in the kitten nonsense all the time, and just wants a more casual, "pick up and play" experience, and maybe if that experience were available, they would be more happy playing the game than they ever would by just accepting the pain in the kitten nonsense. That sound accurate to you guys?

Absolutely, you mean how the remaining 95% of this games PVE are designed (excluding fractals too)? It's almost as though Arenanet designed the game with just that though in mind.

Oh wait, you actually don't care about picking up and play but only the rewards associated with it which too are heavily gated behind those remaining 95% of the PVE in form of story, legendary, collections, map rewards, adventures, etc.

I tried to explain this, but a lot of people will enjoy this game for it's pick up and play environment, so they will keep trying more of it, and eventually get to raids.. rather quickly too I might add, as there is no hard gate to that content. (another design flaw if you ask me)

And they will either be able to do it.. or they won't.

Those that won't will go like this..

kitten that Content > kitten the People who Do it > kitten this Game.

anyone that thinks otherwise is living in fantasy land.

That's your assumption and pure speculation. You have 0 way to back this up. On the contrary, many MMOs that went the ultra casual path have reverted from this step even WoW BECAUSE of severe player hemorrhage. I'll repeat what I said multiple times by now, let Arenanet figure this out and stop pretending as though your assumptions are set in stone.

GW2 on launch was exactly what you are describing and (granted there were multiple other issues as well)and people were bored 2 weeks in. Turns out, letting people gear up in less than 1-2 weeks (that's how long it took for dedicated players to get their first exotic set together, this goes way faster now btw) was catastrophic as far as player retention goes.

Providing a balance for as many different types of players is in the best interest of a developer, unless you are specifically designing for a niche market (like Eve Online for example, but even that game has introduced many casual elements by now).

What you want is for GW2 to revert to a more niche game, which no one can blame you for, it is a valid complaint. You can't blame others though for wanting the game to reach an as big audience as possible though.

Yet all of this has been pointed out multiple times, and we are back at point 1 and round and round it goes.

I have plenty of ways to back it up.. I mean.. just look around, did you miss all the topics being made complaining about raids, this is not the only topic (hence the {Merged} at the end of it),. and I am not the only one making a point they are not good for the game, in fact, you will see new people chime in from time to time, and then the generic attack pack of raid supporters will descend upon them, like they do in reddit, shout them down or down vote their posts into oblivion, and pretend like there is no problem if they can silence any dissent. Much in the same way Anet would often try to silence posts about cheating, Wake Up Call,

it does it make the actual problem go away, it makes it worse

.

But you know.. believe whatever you want. WoW has it's staunch supporters that love the changes as well.

Sounds good, look at the up side, when GW2 has failed in 3-6 months you can claim moral and intellectual victory while playing your new MMO.

Oh I am sure.. just like anyone who can't see past their nose and their own self serving rewards would listen to anyone that disagrees with them. even if they watched the same thing happen in a dozen other games.

You mean unlike your personal self serving agenda right? Sorry your doom and gloom doesn't stick on me. Game is developing great and your pessimistic view (which has been you stick for as long as you have been active on the forums) just isn't panning out so don't be suprised if we don't all take your assumptions, opinions or analysis as pure gold. According to you this game would have died years back and yet your Jehovah’s Witness scenarios haven't happened, who knows maybe next time.

Your memory fails you, as I bragged about how successful his game was pre-HoT.

and my Agenda? LOL.. That would require that I want something from Raids. I don't. In fact I personally have no reason to step in a raid at this point in the game, as such an Easy Mode would mean nothing to me, .as there is nothing I want that I can't get some other way.

You are mistaking me for @Ohoni.6057 , who for reasons I can't understand, actually wants some of that ugly ass evony armor.

If I had an agenda, it would be for the longevity for the game.

@STIHL.2489 said:

Edit Added:

for fun sake, lets see how right I am, GW2, in not going to bottom out in 6 moths, I'd bet.. they still have at least another year of higher sales, (depending on what other games get released), and then by the end of next year.. we can expect to see a bottom out effect.. I predict, that next quarter will be closer to the HoT Post numbers (around 15) (Assuming the Bless infusion does not vault them too much), and they will step down again.. I would say to around 10 ish.. and we will return to a slow steady decline for the next few quarters. Which.. if they don't put out another expansion we can expect another drop.. if they do.. we will see a typical spike and then another drop off.

Tell you what.. save that.. and call me in a year and see if I am right.

Considering a WoW expansion is scheduled for August, a drop in numbers is to be expected, so not sure what you want to prove?

If they have another year of solid performance that's fine, we are due to get another expansion after Living World Season 4 in about a year. What is more interesting is to look back and at those numbers, which have been absolutely solid if NCSofts earning reports are to be believed.

Another year might be fine for you., but I am sure the staff at Anet that has a 30 year mortgage, might want to be employed longer then that.

@STIHL.2489 said:

Until then I'll stick to my opinion, analysis and approach (that being that the game is developing great and putting my faith in Arenanet while ignoring your very subjective view.

WoW still has more active

Subs

accounts then Anet has total sales.. so. to each their own on faith and love of their game.

No.. WoW has more Active Subs, then Anet has total sales over it's last 6 years.

Sure it does, WoW has more active subs than any other MMO on the market due to multiple effects. I doubt that is going to change for a long time and I sincerely hope Arenanet doesn't go try be the bazillionth "WoW killer" with GW2. I'd rather they do a great job at GW2 and let WoW be WoW.

bit late for that sadly.. as they already went the WoW direction with Raids and all the bad that comes along with it.

[STIHL.2489]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:Tell you what.. save that.. and call me in a year and see if I am right.

And adding an easy mode for Raids would solve all those problems? Right?

It would be a solid stop-gap, much in the same way Revising Fractals to be more accessible or toning down HoT boosted their prospective populations. I mean, really, You watched same scenario unfold more then once in this game with other content, with success and your still not a believer? Are your glasses so tinted as to be opaque?

[Sephylon.4938]

you have an agenda: get rid of raids

[STIHL.2489]

@Sephylon.4938 said:you have an agenda: get rid of raids

LoL.. I have no idea who you are talking about, but you say that like you think it's possible at this point. I don't.

I just think we are going to be stuck with trash content.. it might as well be put in correctly.

[Sephylon.4938]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:you have an agenda: get rid of raids

LoL.. you say that like you think it's possible at this point. I don't.

and yet here you still are, at this point it's prob just something you do for the fun of it

[STIHL.2489]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:you have an agenda: get rid of raids

LoL.. you say that like you think it's possible at this point. I don't.

and yet here you still are, at this point it's prob just something you do for the fun of it

Oh you were talking about me.. explain, how am I trying to get rid of raids?