Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[yann.1946]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@yann.1946 said:

PVP is made in such a way to match you against people of the same skill so its not nessecarely harder depends entirly on who you're matched with and against

Not always the case, hence why people aren’t happy with the match making, that the professions attached to certain games as well.

Sure but for every person who has a hard time somebody had it easy. And if pve was so easy as some posters claim we would not have this conversation.

[Tyson.5160]

@yann.1946 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@yann.1946 said:

PVP is made in such a way to match you against people of the same skill so its not nessecarely harder depends entirly on who you're matched with and against

Not always the case, hence why people aren’t happy with the match making, that the professions attached to certain games as well.

Sure but for every person who has a hard time somebody had it easy. And if pve was so easy as some posters claim we would not have this conversation.

That’s life, I guess, some have it easier then others. Though, I must admit battling through pvp to obtain a full set of Legendary Armor was no picnic. Was very frustrating at times.

[Bladestrom.6425]

can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

[nia.4725]

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. this should not be Envoy gear.

when you look at this without the selfish hat on, Everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits.

I think even those who think an easy mode is not necessary (like me) could be ok with said easy mode, if it doesn't give the same rewards the normal mode gives. It all comes down to rewards, those should be given according to the difficulty level. If it's the case, in my opinion, even if we don't like the idea of an easy mode, we can go a little "whatever" at it. I mean, we would probably still complain a little, or be opposed to it, because we genuinely think an easy mode is a bad idea -but it would be a less fierce opposition.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who never want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it.

I get that existing raiders want to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're entitled to it.

[Feanor.2358]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. this should not be Envoy gear.

when you look at this without the selfish hat on, Everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits.

I think even those who think an easy mode is not necessary (like me) could be ok with said easy mode, if it doesn't give the same rewards the normal mode gives. It all comes down to rewards, those should be given according to the difficulty level. If it's the case, in my opinion, even if we don't like the idea of an easy mode, we can go a little "whatever" at it. I mean, we would probably still complain a little, or be opposed to it, because we genuinely think an easy mode is a bad idea -but it would be a less fierce opposition.

I'd even be OK with that. Sure, it would slow down new raid releases somewhat, but after all it would potentially benefit a lot of players. So you know... I'm not that selfish. Problem is, he's not going to convince Ohoni.

[SteepledHat.1345]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@yann.1946 said:

PVP is made in such a way to match you against people of the same skill so its not nessecarely harder depends entirly on who you're matched with and against

Not always the case, hence why people aren’t happy with the match making, that the professions attached to certain games as well.

I don't even want to bring in PvP as any relative comparison as I can firmly say without a doubt it is the mode with the MOST issues right now. I sort of feel for the PvP community as they get neglected most patches while at the very least the Raiding community on occasion gets something that has more or less enhanced our experience for those who actually raid.

I know Anet is trying to assist PvP with Swiss-Tourney and ATs, but those should have been done like 3 years ago. And that's just the ice on top.

They will adding a new tier of Glorious Armor

Oh, when and where did you hear this?

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who

never

want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it.

I get that existing raiders

want

to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're

entitled

to it.

People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too.

I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.

[nia.4725]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who

never

want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it.

I get that existing raiders

want

to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're

entitled

to it.

People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too.

I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.

2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all.

Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

No, not everyone wins. If adding raids meant ANet got enough greater revenue to hire more devs to add a type of content, sure. Before you comment, let's leave just how many devs would be needed, or would have to be taken from other content to ANet. All we can know is that the impact on other content given no additional staff would be greater than zero.

There's a demographic not represented here. It includes every player (open PvE, FotM, WvW, sPvP) who has not touched raids and would not touch raids no matter if an easier difficulty were added. With a few exceptions, those players are unlikely to participate in a raid discussion and are thus unlikely to voice an objection to any potential impact on their content of choice. As one of those players, if that means I'm putting on a selfish hat, so be it.

Despite having no interest in raids, I was happy to see that content type introduced. Those who wanted them certainly waited long enough for harder, instanced content. The way ANet implemented raids provides those players with their content choice, while leaving GW2 endgame substantially as it was. Raids filled the hole left in ANet's pre-launch design intent that explorable dungeons would be a raid-equivalent. Were ANet to funnel more resources into raids, they'd be shifting GW2 toward a more raid-centric game. That, I don't want to see.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who

never

want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it.

I get that existing raiders

want

to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're

entitled

to it.

People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too.

I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.

2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all.

Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre.

so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same.

[nia.4725]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who

never

want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it.

I get that existing raiders

want

to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're

entitled

to it.

People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too.

I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.

2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all.

Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre.

so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same.

sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who

never

want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it.

I get that existing raiders

want

to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're

entitled

to it.

People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too.

I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.

2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all.

Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre.

so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same.

sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre.

If you cant empathise there's not much that's going to persuade you is there., and you are missing the point of my initial post. The point is existing raids get something desirable, and easy mode raiders get something too. The people that gain from these raids are people just like you incidently, not 2nd class citizens because they cant commit to the existing style of raiding. Read the post from your fellow raiders above, they can appreciate and understand compromise.

[STIHL.2489]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

I think what is most likely to happen is Evony will be put in a PvP/WvW reward Track at some point in the future.. and pretty much nothing else.

If they are going to go through the effort to put in another PvE path to legendary armor, they are better off going with the Open World/AP (hellfire/radiant) armor idea that others put out, or the Fractal Idea.. then building a whole other kind of raid.. I mean .. not being rude, but making weak sauce raids is a worse idea then putting in tiers to existing raids.

[nia.4725]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who

never

want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it.

I get that existing raiders

want

to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're

entitled

to it.

People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too.

I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.

2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all.

Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre.

so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same.

sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre.

If you cant empathise there's not much that's going to persuade you is there., and you are missing the point of my initial post. The point is existing raids get something desirable, and easy mode raiders get something too. The people that gain from these raids are people just like you incidently, not 2nd class citizens because they cant commit to the existing style of raiding. Read the post from your fellow raiders above, they can appreciate and understand compromise.

You're switching arguments. This has nothing to do with claiming that " wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same".

Nope easy mode players wouldn't be 2nd class citizens, of course not. Of course they should get something. I'm not saying that, you're assuming things.

The only thing I'm saying is that easy mode shouldn't give a legendary armor. I even said that it could give the pre, and that's more than what other tiered game modes give right now. Let's be fair, it isn't normal that both easy mode and normal mode give a legendary armor. Easy mode could give ascended drops, the pre, idk, a lot of things, but not the legen.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who

never

want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it.

I get that existing raiders

want

to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're

entitled

to it.

People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too.

I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.

2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all.

Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre.

so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same.

sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre.

If you cant empathise there's not much that's going to persuade you is there., and you are missing the point of my initial post. The point is existing raids get something desirable, and easy mode raiders get something too. The people that gain from these raids are people just like you incidently, not 2nd class citizens because they cant commit to the existing style of raiding. Read the post from your fellow raiders above, they can appreciate and understand compromise.

You're switching arguments. This has nothing to do with claiming that " wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same".

Nope easy mode players wouldn't be 2nd class citizens, of course not. Of course they should get something. I'm not saying that, you're assuming things.

The only thing I'm saying is that easy mode shouldn't give a legendary armor. I even said that it could give the pre, and that's more than what other tiered game modes give right now. Let's be fair, it isn't normal that both easy mode and normal mode give a legendary armor. Easy mode could give ascended drops, the pre, idk, a lot of things, but not the legen.

No the 'only' thing you are saying is that people who raid easy mode shouldn't get the rewards that are given to wvw, spvp and raids purely because you don't want them to get them. Very odd considering quite obviously pve players would love this. You basically ignored the points above and went back to infer the old argument that PVE players either change their tastes and/or their real life commitments ( or is it 'not be lazy') or f*ck em they can make do with non legendary rewards. very fair to be sure and altruistic, especially with your 'give ascended drops' knowing fine well ascended is no longer a long term goal and are trivial to obtain.

[nia.4725]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

While I agree it's a step forward, it doesn't offer much to players who

never

want to "advance" to the harder difficulty version, and that you're still leaving out of the Envoy armor. I'm fine with Envoy armor remaining exclusive to "raids," so long as that term is inclusive of the easy mode, just as The Ascension can be earned in ranked PvP, without being exclusive to the higher rank tiers of it.

I get that existing raiders

want

to maintain exclusive access to that loot, their own little walled off garden, I just disagree that they're

entitled

to it.

People who don't want to advance, get some legendary armor, and more importantly access to 10 man they enjoy. As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here). Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too.

I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.

2 legendary armors in raids does not make sense at all.

Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor. In my opinion, it would make perfect sense for easy mode to give the pre.

so lets keep the fairness hat on. wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same.

sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.WvW does not have tiers.If easy mode exists raids would have tiers, why do they have to give 2 different legendary armors? If I keep your "fairness" hat on, and apply the model of sPvP, easy mode raids should not have anything related to a legendary armor. Not even the pre.

If you cant empathise there's not much that's going to persuade you is there., and you are missing the point of my initial post. The point is existing raids get something desirable, and easy mode raiders get something too. The people that gain from these raids are people just like you incidently, not 2nd class citizens because they cant commit to the existing style of raiding. Read the post from your fellow raiders above, they can appreciate and understand compromise.

You're switching arguments. This has nothing to do with claiming that " wvw, spvp, raiding all have legendary. This can be the same".

Nope easy mode players wouldn't be 2nd class citizens, of course not. Of course they should get something. I'm not saying that, you're assuming things.

The only thing I'm saying is that easy mode shouldn't give a legendary armor. I even said that it could give the pre, and that's more than what other tiered game modes give right now. Let's be fair, it isn't normal that both easy mode and normal mode give a legendary armor. Easy mode could give ascended drops, the pre, idk, a lot of things, but not the legen.

No the 'only' thing you are saying is that people who raid easy mode shouldn't get the rewards that are given to wvw, spvp and raids purely because you don't want them to get them. Very odd considering quite obviously pve players would love this. You basically ignored the points above and went back to infer the old argument that PVE players either change their tastes and/or their real life commitments ( or is it 'not be lazy') or f*ck em they can make do with non legendary rewards. very fair to be sure and altruistic, especially with your 'give ascended drops' knowing fine well ascended is no longer a long term goal and are trivial to obtain.

went back to infer the old argument that PVE players either change their tastes and/or their real life commitments??????????????????You're confusing people here, mate. Go back to read my posts.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we also had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. This should not be Envoy gear.

When you look at this without the selfish hat on, everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits. As a bonus, easier mode raids also give a natural training ground for people who will eventually migrate up to more difficult tuned instances.

@nia.4725 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:can you not wrap up this thread by simply saying:

• Existing raids and envoy gear should be unique as per other content types in game.
• Lots of people miss out on 10 man instances because they don't like the current tuning of raid, therefore it would be nice if we had lower tuned mode raids that they (and everyone else) can enjoy. This raid would offer legendary gear that takes as long as it takes to get legendary in say wvw. this should not be Envoy gear.

when you look at this without the selfish hat on, Everyone wins. Raids have greater take-up, meaning potential more investment by Anet to build more raids for all and everyone gets access to 10 man content at a tuning level that suits.

I think even those who think an easy mode is not necessary (like me) could be ok with said easy mode, if it doesn't give the same rewards the normal mode gives. It all comes down to rewards, those should be given according to the difficulty level. If it's the case, in my opinion, even if we don't like the idea of an easy mode, we can go a little "whatever" at it. I mean, we would probably still complain a little, or be opposed to it, because we genuinely think an easy mode is a bad idea -but it would be a less fierce opposition.

I'd even be OK with that. Sure, it would slow down new raid releases somewhat, but after all it

would

potentially benefit a lot of players. So you know... I'm not

that

selfish. Problem is, he's not going to convince Ohoni.

So basically, your opposition is entirely about the shinies.

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:As for Envoy, it has to be exclusive to 'hard' mode only to protect the investment existing raiders made (lets be fair here).

No. That is not "fair," there is no expectation that any "investment" in a game will ever be "protected." Players who went after Envoy armor, got it. That's their reward, in its entirety. Their reward is not and has never been "and nobody else will be able to have it." There is no "fairness" in them maintaining permanent monopoly over that aspect, however much they may whine about it.

Also the street goes both ways, if easy mode raids want legendary, then that should be unique too.

Well, 1. They will never make another set of Legendary armor for easy mode, so that's a strawman, and 2. Whether easy mode gets its own Legendary or not, many players will still want both, so easy mode players who want the Envoy skins would be out of luck, and hard mode players who want the easy skins would have to go through the whole new process, it's a far worse outcome for both sides.

I also think it would speed up existing raid development ultimately, as the cost/benefit improves and investment in raids will give better bang for the back for us/ Anet.

I agree, but that applies most to an easy mode that makes as few changes to normal mode as possible, including rewards.

@nia.4725 said:Easy mode would be a lower tier from raids, so the most natural thing is that it doesn't give access to legendary armor.

Only if you somehow take the view that playing normal mode is somehow "worth more/more deserving" than playing easy mode, which is, of course, preposterous, since we're discussing a game here. The "natural" thing is that everyone gets the reward for playing the way they enjoy playing.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Despite having no interest in raids, I was happy to see that content type introduced. Those who wanted them certainly waited long enough for harder, instanced content. The way ANet implemented raids provides those players with their content choice, while leaving GW2 endgame substantially as it was. Raids filled the hole left in ANet's pre-launch design intent that explorable dungeons would be a raid-equivalent. Were ANet to funnel more resources into raids, they'd be shifting GW2 toward a more raid-centric game. That, I don't want to see.

Neither do I, but I don't see that as a likely outcome here. The resources that would need to be funneled into this project would be minimal when compared to the resources they already put into raids to create what we've already seen. We don't know exactly how much it would take, just that it would be a lot less, just by the basic laws of physics.

@nia.4725 said:sPvP has something like tiers -unranked and ranked - only ranked gives legendary armor.

You cannot say "PvP has ranked and unranked, and that matters" with a straight face. It does not. Ranked is no different than unranked, it's all PvP, anyone who can "do unranked" can do ranked just as easily. If you genuinely believe that this is a distinction that matters, then maybe what they should do is nerf all the raids to meet the standards that I would consider "easy mode," and then they call that the "easy mode," and then also have the exact same content but they label it "hard mode," and that, by your definition, would make it two completely different things, deserving of different rewards. I would totally play that "hard mode."

[Sarrs.4831]

If a new legendary armor set for 'easy-mode raiding' were on the table I'd really just be thinking they should release a set of wings as relatively easy raids which has it as a reward all its own. Rehashing now-old content with an easy mode is not what the game needs. You may as well make a case for adding a hard mode for dungeons with a legendary armor set behind that. (Though now that I think about it...)

Never mind that we'd be putting two legendary armor sets behind raiding, even 'easy mode' raiding. It somewhat boggles me that making a new legendary armor set, putting it behind easy mode raiding, and then saying that's a solution to PvEers needing to raid for legendary armor has not triggered anyone else.

[Tyson.5160]

@SteepledHat.1345 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"yann.1946" said:

PVP is made in such a way to match you against people of the same skill so its not nessecarely harder depends entirly on who you're matched with and against

Not always the case, hence why people aren’t happy with the match making, that the professions attached to certain games as well.

I don't even want to bring in PvP as any relative comparison as I can firmly say without a doubt it is the mode with the MOST issues right now. I sort of feel for the PvP community as they get neglected most patches while at the very least the Raiding community on occasion gets something that has more or less enhanced our experience for those who actually raid.

I know Anet is trying to assist PvP with Swiss-Tourney and ATs, but those should have been done like 3 years ago. And that's just the ice on top.

They will adding a new tier of Glorious Armor

Oh, when and where did you hear this?

I’ll link the forum post.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/37182/pvp-armor/p1

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Sarrs.4831" said:If a new legendary armor set for 'easy-mode raiding' were on the table I'd really just be thinking they should release a set of wings as relatively easy raids which has it as a reward all its own.

What would that solve? Yes, it would be adding new content to the game, which is fine, but:

1. It would take far more time than any sort of easy mode, because it would require all the work of an easy mode PLUS hundreds of hours per encounter in art, animation, encounter design, etc., so any argument of "easy mode would take time away fro other projects" argument would be blown clear out of the water.
2. It would still not solve the problem of "players wanting to experience the content of the existing raid wings in a lower stress environment."
3. It would still not solve the problem of "players wanting access to Envoy armor even if they don't enjoy the stress of normal mode raiding."
4. Raiders would probably not like it much because it would be easier and therefore "mor grindy" to their sensibilities, but would still likely feel compelled to play it for the new rewards and content.

It basically is almost entirely downsides and resolves very little.

Never mind that we'd be putting two legendary armor sets behind raiding, even 'easy mode' raiding. It somewhat boggles me that making a new legendary armor set, putting it behind easy mode raiding, and then saying that's a solution to PvEers needing to raid for legendary armor has not triggered anyone else.

While I agree that, ideally, if they were to create a new PvE set, it would be earned via activities more like post-HoT Legendary Weapons, I do see easy mode raids as an adequate alternative to the existing raids, because while it's similar content and wouldn't appeal to everyone, it would at least be a LOT more accessible, so more players could actively pursue that route.

[Teamkiller.4315]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Sarrs.4831" said:If a new legendary armor set for 'easy-mode raiding' were on the table I'd really just be thinking they should release a set of wings as relatively easy raids which has it as a reward all its own.

What would that solve? Yes, it would be adding new content to the game, which is fine, but:

1. It would take far more time than any sort of easy mode, because it would require all the work of an easy mode PLUS hundreds of hours per encounter in art, animation, encounter design, etc., so any argument of "easy mode would take time away fro other projects" argument would be blown clear out of the water.
2. It would still not solve the problem of "players wanting to experience the content of the existing raid wings in a lower stress environment."
3. It would still not solve the problem of "players wanting access to Envoy armor even if they don't enjoy the stress of normal mode raiding."
4. Raiders would probably not like it much because it would be easier and therefore "mor grindy" to their sensibilities, but would still likely feel compelled to play it for the new rewards and content.

It basically is almost entirely downsides and resolves very little.

Well of course it would if you frame it in the very biased way that you did. Why didn't you list any of the pros of such an approach?

1. It would make raids more accessible while also not cheapening envoy armor in the eyes of many raiders
2. It would avoid ruining immersion since you would not have to defend why these easy versions of existing bosses exist from a lore standpoint.
3. It would avoid satisfying players who feel entitled to envoy armor without putting in the work to self improve.
4. It is new content, easy or hard it is new content and that is always nice to have.
5. Raiders would probably enjoy the wealth of new content and help out as is often the case when experienced players join training runs to help out (despite already having cleared the boss that week), improving instanced PvE as well as the overall health of the game.

It seems like there are a large number of upsides and it solves much.

[STIHL.2489]

@Teamkiller.4315 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Sarrs.4831" said:If a new legendary armor set for 'easy-mode raiding' were on the table I'd really just be thinking they should release a set of wings as relatively easy raids which has it as a reward all its own.

What would that solve? Yes, it would be adding new content to the game, which is fine, but:

1. It would take far more time than any sort of easy mode, because it would require all the work of an easy mode PLUS hundreds of hours per encounter in art, animation, encounter design, etc., so any argument of "easy mode would take time away fro other projects" argument would be blown clear out of the water.
2. It would still not solve the problem of "players wanting to experience the content of the existing raid wings in a lower stress environment."
3. It would still not solve the problem of "players wanting access to Envoy armor even if they don't enjoy the stress of normal mode raiding."
4. Raiders would probably not like it much because it would be easier and therefore "mor grindy" to their sensibilities, but would still likely feel compelled to play it for the new rewards and content.

It basically is almost entirely downsides and resolves very little.

Well of course it would if you frame it in the very biased way that you did. Why didn't you list any of the pros of such an approach?

1. It would make raids more accessible while also not cheapening envoy armor in the eyes of many raiders
2. It would avoid ruining immersion since you would not have to defend why these easy versions of existing bosses exist from a lore standpoint.
3. It would avoid satisfying players who feel entitled to envoy armor without putting in the work to self improve.
4. It is new content, easy or hard it is new content and that is always nice to have.
5. Raiders would probably enjoy the wealth of new content and help out as is often the case when experienced players join training runs to help out (despite already having cleared the boss that week), improving instanced PvE as well as the overall health of the game.

It seems like there are a large number of upsides and it solves much.

not a single one of these things would happen.

[STIHL.2489]

@Sarrs.4831 said:Never mind that we'd be putting two legendary armor sets behind raiding, even 'easy mode' raiding. It somewhat boggles me that making a new legendary armor set, putting it behind easy mode raiding, and then saying that's a solution to PvEers needing to raid for legendary armor has not triggered anyone else.

I totally agree with you. it's a bad idea right down to the core. Other people put out better ideas like a Hellfire/Radiant Armor upgrade System to make Legendary Armor.

But just making Weak-Sauce raids would be a total waste on every level, because that is all they would ever amount to.. weak-sauce, stupid easy, cake-walk content that has no business being called raids.

[Ohoni.6057]

@"Teamkiller.4315" said:Well of course it would if you frame it in the very biased way that you did. Why didn't you list any of the pros of such an approach?

1. It would make raids more accessible while also not cheapening envoy armor in the eyes of many raiders

It wouldn't do anything to make raids more accessible, because the raids that would be accessible would not be the ones with Envoy armor and the ones with Envoy armor would be no more accessible. Also I do not care about cheapening envoy armor in the eyes of any raiders, because they are not entitled for it to never be cheapened. Imagine if WoW were held to the standard of "nothing in Onyxia's Lair ever being lowered in relative value."

2. It would avoid ruining immersion since you would not have to defend why these easy versions of existing bosses exist from a lore standpoint.

Lol, that's not even a thing. There's tons of content in this game with easier and harder variations on them, like Challenge Motes.

3. It would avoid satisfying players who feel entitled to envoy armor without putting in the work to self improve.

That's not a positive. Those players deserve satisfaction as much as those currently raiding. Both are just people playing a game.

4. It is new content, easy or hard it is new content and that is always nice to have.

Yeah, but again it's new content that raiders would not likely enjoy, and that would take time away from creating other content in the game, more time than easy mode raids would. If easy mode raids would be a bad cost/value proposition, then this proposal would be far worse.

5. Raiders would probably enjoy the wealth of new content and help out as is often the case when experienced players join training runs to help out (despite already having cleared the boss that week), improving instanced PvE as well as the overall health of the game.

Doubtful. They would be too easy to get most raiders interested. If they had unique rewards that interested the raiders then they might still do it, but they would probably complain constantly about how boring and grindy they are.I would prefer to just let raiders keep doing the content they enjoy.

It seems like there are a large number of upsides and it solves much.

Clearly you aren't the target audience for this, perhaps you aren't the best to judge its merits.

@STIHL.2489 said:I totally agree with you. it's a bad idea right down to the core. Other people put out better ideas like a Hellfire/Radiant Armor upgrade System to make Legendary Armor.

I still don't have all of those sets, they've greatly decreased the amount of AP content provides over the past few years so it now can take 6-12 months between getting new pieces. Either way, they are particularly ugly sets, I don't really want to see a skin based off of them, unless you could trade them for Envoy skins.