Nov Balance, 2 Steps Backwards for Mesmer...

[Mevelios.4809]

37 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

And no, I don't realize that giving allies boons doesn't take them away from myself. Because that's not what it says. I am taking the skills literally as they are written.

Read again my last paragraph above please. The second quote tickled me wrong, but the last paragraph after that disambiguates what's disturbing you since such confusing wording is already present in other professions/e-specs (engineer, renegade, firebrand...).

[Teknomancer.4895]

 

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Our goal for mesmer in this update was to improve the set of tools available to support builds. We've made larger changes to the chaos and inspiration specializations to provide better access to certain boons and improve healing capabilities.

Followed by a long list of bullet points that amounted to:

• Torment
• Torment
• Torment
• Torment
• Some CD reduction
• A couple tweaks to rub our noses in the fact that even though they've backtracked on the nerfs a (very) little, Confusion still sucks.

First they took away our Fast Casting and our wealth of damaging interrupts from GW1, then they kindasorta gave Fast Casting back with Chronomancer, then they gave it to everyone because why not? They made us the "duelist" class that relies on confusing the enemy then made kitten sure we're super-fragile in melee if we want to have any damage output, the illusions don't fool anything but the trashiest of trash mobs, Confusion as a build focus isn't even worth a meme anymore, and they give us a bunch of Torment buffs that seem better suited to the Revenant.

Yes, they buffed a couple of trait lines that have been meh since launch, but beyond that I think their goal for Mesmer in this update was to finally erase the class' identity once and for all. I'll still play my oldest character, but most of what I used to think of as defining the Mesmer class is either gone or outright done better by other classes.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

2 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Why do I need regeneration when I JUST used a healing skill? That's like...more healing on my already healing. Before it was a SECOND heal that triggered when your HP ran low. The same is true of Chaotic Transference. I could use my heal OR I could heal with my 4. Or I could use them both if I was really in trouble. So yes, I'm pissed.

And no, I don't realize that giving allies boons doesn't take them away from myself. Because that's not what it says. I am taking the skills literally as they are written. And literally as they're written they screwed the mesmers. Or at least they screwed me. I get that I'm the minority here and everyone else is doing cartwheels because they'll make their group happy now when previously if you showed up as a mesmer you got the boot. And if that's the way things are going I guess I need to find something else to play. No, I'm not leaving the mesmer profession. The profession left me.

The healing skills never fully heal me. But the Chaos traitline's damage bonuses were entirely based on whether or not you had Regeneration... 

But outside of Mirage the Mesmer class only had a passive unreliable method of getting it by getting killed or using Distortion but that only provided 10 seconds with a minute long cooldown.

Currently the Mesmer only gets 3 seconds of Protection every 20 seconds IF you take the useless trait. With the November changes you lose the stacking damage reduction but playing solo you can have permanent Protection, Chaos Aura, and Regeneration giving yourself the permanent damage buff and 33% damage reduction instead of the current 25% damage reduction.

The Traits descriptions they have stated use the same verbiage as the Mesmer Shields description and the Firebrands Quickness trait.

There are MANY skill and trait descriptions where it just says it grants boons to Allies but it always grants them to you. The game considers you in the alliance.

Skills explicitly state when they do not apply to the player but if it just says grants allies a boon then it also applies to the character.

Solo mesmer is getting buffed in this patch and it is gaining support capability that it was sorely lacking.

 

I have only played Fractals 3 times and 3 strikes in my time playing after starting 1 year ago.

I play solo 95% of the time and I can see these changes just helping me out.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

3 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

And no, I don't realize that giving allies boons doesn't take them away from myself. Because that's not what it says. I am taking the skills literally as they are written. And literally as they're written they screwed the mesmers. Or at least they screwed me. I get that I'm the minority here and everyone else is doing cartwheels because they'll make their group happy now when previously if you showed up as a mesmer you got the boot. And if that's the way things are going I guess I need to find something else to play. No, I'm not leaving the mesmer profession. The profession left me.

Tides of Time: Grant boons to nearby allies as you launch a wave of temporal energy that damages and stops enemies it passes through

Chaos Vortex: Allies near you gain boons.

Firebrand Liberators Vow: Grant allies quickness when you use your heal skill.

Guardian Empower: Channel healing and might to nearby allies. Completing this channel grants more health to your allies.

Scrapper Kinetic Accelerators: Grant boons to nearby allies when you successfully combo a field 

 

The list keeps going on and on. In this game when a trait or skill says it grants boons to nearby allies it also applies to the player.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

6 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Why do I need regeneration when I JUST used a healing skill? That's like...more healing on my already healing. Before it was a SECOND heal that triggered when your HP ran low. The same is true of Chaotic Transference. I could use my heal OR I could heal with my 4. Or I could use them both if I was really in trouble. So yes, I'm pissed.

So you only play solo in open world? 

And the point of Regen in Chaos traitline was never about saving yourself, it's about maintaining Chaotic Persistence. This gives you way more control over how you can maintain it while sharing it with others. 

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And no, I don't realize that giving allies boons doesn't take them away from myself. Because that's not what it says. I am taking the skills literally as they are written. And literally as they're written they screwed the mesmers.

So you never played a support role before? Because every support skills are worded the exact same way.

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I get that I'm the minority here and everyone else is doing cartwheels because they'll make their group happy now when previously if you showed up as a mesmer you got the boot. And if that's the way things are going I guess I need to find something else to play. No, I'm not leaving the mesmer profession. The profession left me.

You do realize Mesmer was THE original support class right? The class that did it so well it broke the game in half before any of these modern support classes were an idea? Talking about Chrono btw. These changes are merely giving back what we used to be capable of, not changing because for the sake of changing. 

Sounds to me the profession never left, it's more you never got used to how it's played.

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Was it their intention to just annihilate the solo mesmer? This is all great for everyone else if you're playing in a group. Hell they don't even need you to do anything. Just throw a jumping mouse on your keyboard so it can constantly refresh their boons like the buff battery that apparently they want us to be. EXCEPT I DON'T WANT TO PLAY IN A GROUP. I am a SOLO player. I don't Party, I don't Squad, I don't Guild, and I don't need to have my entire build rebuilt to be better for all the people I'm not playing with in the first place. What is even the point of playing a mesmer at this point? Quite frankly there's already a boon build for every other profession in the game, and mesmers already had many boon builds. Now that's pretty much ALL we have.

And this confirms my suspicion you're a solo player in open world *shrugs*

Not that it's inherently a bad thing, but then what is the point of getting mad at the balance if you don't participate in group gameplay at all?

And the point of playing Mesmer has always been the same: The massive amount of utilities it has in its toolkit to offer support to groups. So you're playing the class designed for group support as a solo player, and then complain when said class is doing its job?

Edited October 31, 2023 by ZephidelGRS.9520

[aetemes.2603]

I dunnl how I feel but the break stun stability spam is all I am finding "shiny"...but will have to experience it...

My mesmer pve experience honestly has been that I feel chrono isnt super duper great at either support or dps in group settings that I always find myself feeling no super situation where I'd feel it'd shine..as everything else has zomg dps or buffs without feeling like it needs to apologise for its existence..and mirage is for soloing things...this whole mass chaos aura and stab/break stun situation might give me a vibe I find interesting enough for both pvp and pve.

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

Why do I need regeneration when I JUST used a healing skill? That's like...more healing on my already healing. Before it was a SECOND heal that triggered when your HP ran low. The same is true of Chaotic Transference. I could use my heal OR I could heal with my 4. Or I could use them both if I was really in trouble. So yes, I'm pissed.

There has been a trend across all professions to remove passively triggering traits, especially traits that trigger based on crossing health thresholds. So Metaphysical Rejuvenation was probably getting reworked either way. Under the circumstances, triggering when a heal skill is used is probably a decent option since... that's a skill you normally use when you need healing. 

[Levetty.1279]

I will say it is funny that when they finally made it easier to get regeneration they removed one of the main reasons you want regeneration. Chaos Armor up time is also going to be a problem especially on damage builds. That said as far as this effecting solo builds its a wash, Chaos was only really useful for stat padding for Mirage Staff builds. You lose a bit of defence and probably damage for better regen and protection uptime. Staff is still doing the bulk of the work anyway so you lost far more from CMC's unhinged hatred of Staff then this current patch.

Also the clone on Heal skill is an utter dogshite trait that makes the reorganizing of  Inspiration traits kind of pointless because Healing Prism, even with how mediocre it was, is better then a clone on heal so you aren't really getting anything in return. Better boon gen but I don't think the healing will be there to make the build really work. Some of the better group support stuff is also tied up to Mantras which still have an obnoxiously long cast time.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

7 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

You do realize Mesmer was THE original support class right? The class that did it so well it broke the game in half before any of these modern support classes were an idea? Talking about Chrono btw. These changes are merely giving back what we used to be capable of, not changing because for the sake of changing. 

Sounds to me the profession never left, it's more you never got used to how it's played.

DO NOT CITE TO ME THE DEEP MAGIC, WI-, I mean, I've been a mesmer since Guild Wars 1. I think I have a pretty good handle on what mesmers are and what they do. I played what I affectionately called a "Punishment" build, a combination of Shutdown and Energy Denial build with Empathy, Backfire, Chaos Storm, Energy Burn, Energy Surge, Mind Wrack, and Anuerysm (and rebirth for reusable rez). I was a dedicated boss killer, but if it works on a level 24 warrior it'll kill any level 20 trash mob. And I have played mesmer since GW2 launched. I know what I'm doing.

7 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

And this confirms my suspicion you're a solo player in open world *shrugs*

Not that it's inherently a bad thing, but then what is the point of getting mad at the balance if you don't participate in group gameplay at all?

I TOLD you I was a solo player. It wasn't a mystery wrapped in a riddle to be divined. But what's the point of getting mad if I don't play in groups? If I didn't make that clear enough, THEY TOOK AWAY THE SELF SUSTAINING OPTIONS TO GIVE THEM TO OTHER PEOPLE. As I already detailed above, they took away the staffs ability to apply vulnerability, leaving you reliant on someone else to do it. They took away the regen on low health so you could give regen to everyone else instead. And so on, I'm not writing the same thing twice.

7 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

And the point of playing Mesmer has always been the same: The massive amount of utilities it has in its toolkit to offer support to groups. So you're playing the class designed for group support as a solo player, and then complain when said class is doing its job?

     Okay, but here's the biggest kicker and if you're still here after all that I want to sit down with you and really rap for a moment. On its face, I'm going to agree with you. But you're wrong. See, back in the days of Guild Wars 1 you were absolutely right. Mesmers were never meant to go out by themselves. Very few builds could really solo. Rangers could do it decently, so could warriors. 55 monks could pull it off in most places, but otherwise you were expected to either team up with other players or take henchmen with you before you walked outside. But we're not playing Guild Wars 1 anymore. This is Guild Wars 2. You are dropped into the world naked and alone. You go through the story by yourself. You roam and complete maps by yourself. Guild Wars 2 was LITERALLY designed with the solo experience first and foremost in mind to make it more accessable to people. Guild Wars 1 was not accessable. I think it was better for that but that's a separate conversation. GW2 however made sure that every profession, and this was a major contention both then and now, was more or less the same. Each one could fight, each one could tank to varying degrees, each one could heal, each one could take care of themselves. Then if you did team up with other people it was two people who could both take care of themselves working together to make things easier. In short, there is no such thing as a group support class. There are no Monks in Guild Wars 2. We have Guardians, and they don't need a group either.
     Now, that doesn't mean I don't agree with you because it does feel like they're trying to strip all that survivability out of the mesmer and force you into playing that support role. Strip out the heal on low heath triggers, strip out the self protections, just remove most of the stuff that targets us and give that to everyone else, so now you're forced to stick close to the group if you want to live. And like that you've pigeon-holed the mesmer into just one role: Boon Battery. You're there to make everyone else better at playing the game while they keep you alive so you can make them better at playing the game. They don't actually need you though, THEY'RE still independant professions. THEY can still fight, tank, and heal themselves and they don't need you to do it for them. So mesmers are being relegated to a redundant role that was never needed in the first place.
     And you mentioned the Chrono specifically and I'm so glad you did because it's the perfect example of what I'm talking about. When HoT came out and we got our first elite specs. Mesmers got a new boon called Aclarity and when you talk about support mesmers EVERYONE wanted an Alac mesmer in their group. Mesmers were living large even if it was the only reason that anyone wanted them to come along. And then what happened? They gave it to everyone else. So they don't want you to actually provide the boons you're being build to because other people can do it themselves. ANd they don't want you solo playing because you're skills and traits either give your boos to other people or just don't function to keep you alive. So why the hell are you playing mesmer anymore other than to be the group mascot. And yes, I did read that if you apply boons to everyone else you get them yourself and I don't care. We still lost self sustain and now we just get to share in the lesser version we're distributing now.

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There has been a trend across all professions to remove passively triggering traits, especially traits that trigger based on crossing health thresholds. So Metaphysical Rejuvenation was probably getting reworked either way. Under the circumstances, triggering when a heal skill is used is probably a decent option since... that's a skill you normally use when you need healing. 

And this one is just a personal gripe of mine. I get what they're doing, and it's strange. I don't often visit the WvW forums because I don't play it but I still get curious and one of the things I see pop up regularly is people asking, nay, begging Anet for a colorblind option because they're divided into Red, Green, and Blue teams (and Red/Green colorblindness is the most common form) and if you happen to be colorblind it makes WvW very hard to play. I am not colorblind, but I am legally blind and as such this shift to a more active form of gameplay is making my life more difficult. Yes, I know that's a "me" problem, and I have to deal with that. However I've found great benefit to playing signet builds just for less things to keep track of, and using things like Metaphysical Rejuvination to help sustain me while giving me less things I need to keep track of at one time. Yes, I still need to keep track of my HP but it gave me a buffer. It helped me. But the way things are going, as with the above response I made, I'm getting the feeling that Anet would be much happier if I just kittened off and went back to playing Candy Crush.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

7 hours ago, aetemes.2603 said:

I dunnl how I feel but the break stun stability spam is all I am finding "shiny"...but will have to experience it...

My mesmer pve experience honestly has been that I feel chrono isnt super duper great at either support or dps in group settings that I always find myself feeling no super situation where I'd feel it'd shine..as everything else has zomg dps or buffs without feeling like it needs to apologise for its existence..and mirage is for soloing things...this whole mass chaos aura and stab/break stun situation might give me a vibe I find interesting enough for both pvp and pve.

Where is there "break stun stability spam"?

 

The only new stability I see with Mesmer is Bountiful Disillusion giving Stability on F4. But with a 50 second cooldown that won't be spammable.

[Sansar.1302]

Healers and support dont fit guild wars 2 it where ment to be a game without those roles.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

4 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I TOLD you I was a solo player. It wasn't a mystery wrapped in a riddle to be divined. But what's the point of getting mad if I don't play in groups? If I didn't make that clear enough, THEY TOOK AWAY THE SELF SUSTAINING OPTIONS TO GIVE THEM TO OTHER PEOPLE. As I already detailed above, they took away the staffs ability to apply vulnerability, leaving you reliant on someone else to do it. They took away the regen on low health so you could give regen to everyone else instead. And so on, I'm not writing the same thing twice. 

The more important question is why do you even need self sustain in open world in the first place?

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Okay, but here's the biggest kicker and if you're still here after all that I want to sit down with you and really rap for a moment. On its face, I'm going to agree with you. But you're wrong. See, back in the days of Guild Wars 1 you were absolutely right. Mesmers were never meant to go out by themselves. Very few builds could really solo. Rangers could do it decently, so could warriors. 55 monks could pull it off in most places, but otherwise you were expected to either team up with other players or take henchmen with you before you walked outside. But we're not playing Guild Wars 1 anymore. This is Guild Wars 2. You are dropped into the world naked and alone. You go through the story by yourself. You roam and complete maps by yourself. Guild Wars 2 was LITERALLY designed with the solo experience first and foremost in mind to make it more accessable to people. Guild Wars 1 was not accessible. I think it was better for that but that's a separate conversation. GW2 however made sure that every profession, and this was a major contention both then and now, was more or less the same. Each one could fight, each one could tank to varying degrees, each one could heal, each one could take care of themselves. In short, there is no such thing as a group support class. Then if you did team up with other people it was two people who could both take care of themselves working together to make things easier. There are no Monks in Guild Wars 2. We have Guardians, and they don't need a group either.

And each class doesn't have equal access to boon strip, condi cleanse, reflect/projectile hate, push/pull, and to a lesser extent group stealth, blink and especially portals. So that's vastly an overgeneralization. You're right that groups can go on and do stuff without these things as the game has to be balanced around all classes, but the difference of success between having them and not having them is enough for people to seriously consider them, and thus those are still considered valuable group support. A Mesmer-specific example in the open world would be that Drakkar will surely fail if there aren't at least 3 Mesmers porting. 

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Now, that doesn't mean I don't agree with you because it does feel like they're trying to strip all that survivability out of the mesmer and force you into playing that support role. Strip out the heal on low heath triggers, strip out the self protections, just remove most of the stuff that targets us and give that to everyone else, so now you're forced to stick close to the group if you want to live. You're there to make everyone else better at playing the game while they keep you alive so you can make them better at playing the game. They don't actually need you though, THEY'RE still independant professions. THEY can still fight, tank, and heal themselves and they don't need you to do it for them.

Uh, it's the DPSers that want to live are the ones who have to stick close to you, the healer, unless they want to suicide. Not the other way around, they do NEED you. There's a reason why Fractal T3 is notoriously called pug hell lol exactly because people often run away from healers, assuming they even brought a healer in.

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And like that you've pigeon-holed the mesmer into just one role: Boon Battery. So mesmers are being relegated to a redundant role that was never needed in the first place.    

No? Now you can choose to be pure power/condi DPS, alac/quick support DPS, or alac/quick healer? The latter of which Mesmer didn't have a viable build in years? In fact, what is this boon battery role?

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And you mentioned the Chrono specifically and I'm so glad you did because it's the perfect example of what I'm talking about. When HoT came out and we got our first elite specs. Mesmers got a new boon called Aclarity and when you talk about support mesmers EVERYONE wanted an Alac mesmer in their group. Mesmers were living large even if it was the only reason that anyone wanted them to come along. And then what happened? They gave it to everyone else. So they don't want you to actually provide the boons you're being build to because other people can do it themselves.

Because it was unhealthy for the game for a class to monopolize such a crucial boon? That players were tired of having a Chrono was mandatory for every squad building? Considering that nowadays there are groups that flat out refuse to run until there's Alacrity in the group, I'd say that was a very positive change. That doesn't mean I agree with how they treated Chrono afterwards, but having Chrono be the only class with Alacrity would have been a worse result. 

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And they don't want you solo playing because you're skills and traits either give your boos to other people or just don't function to keep you alive. So why the hell are you playing mesmer anymore other than to be the group mascot. And yes, I did read that if you apply boons to everyone else you get them yourself and I don't care. We still lost self sustain and now we just get to share in the lesser version we're distributing now.

And what kind of solo play that 2 dodges and a heal button isn't enough?

Edited October 31, 2023 by ZephidelGRS.9520

[Roadkizzle.2157]

5 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

 THEY TOOK AWAY THE SELF SUSTAINING OPTIONS TO GIVE THEM TO OTHER PEOPLE. As I already detailed above, they took away the staffs ability to apply vulnerability, leaving you reliant on someone else to do it. They took away the regen on low health so you could give regen to everyone else instead. And so on, I'm not writing the same thing twice.

     Okay, but here's the biggest kicker and if you're still here after all that I want to sit down with you and really rap for a moment. On its face, I'm going to agree with you. But you're wrong. See, back in the days of Guild Wars 1 you were absolutely right. Mesmers were never meant to go out by themselves. Very few builds could really solo. Rangers could do it decently, so could warriors. 55 monks could pull it off in most places, but otherwise you were expected to either team up with other players or take henchmen with you before you walked outside. But we're not playing Guild Wars 1 anymore. This is Guild Wars 2. You are dropped into the world naked and alone. You go through the story by yourself. You roam and complete maps by yourself. Guild Wars 2 was LITERALLY designed with the solo experience first and foremost in mind to make it more accessable to people. Guild Wars 1 was not accessable. I think it was better for that but that's a separate conversation. GW2 however made sure that every profession, and this was a major contention both then and now, was more or less the same. Each one could fight, each one could tank to varying degrees, each one could heal, each one could take care of themselves. Then if you did team up with other people it was two people who could both take care of themselves working together to make things easier. In short, there is no such thing as a group support class. There are no Monks in Guild Wars 2. We have Guardians, and they don't need a group either.
     Now, that doesn't mean I don't agree with you because it does feel like they're trying to strip all that survivability out of the mesmer and force you into playing that support role. Strip out the heal on low heath triggers, strip out the self protections, just remove most of the stuff that targets us and give that to everyone else, so now you're forced to stick close to the group if you want to live. And like that you've pigeon-holed the mesmer into just one role: Boon Battery. You're there to make everyone else better at playing the game while they keep you alive so you can make them better at playing the game. They don't actually need you though, THEY'RE still independant professions. THEY can still fight, tank, and heal themselves and they don't need you to do it for them. So mesmers are being relegated to a redundant role that was never needed in the first place.
     And you mentioned the Chrono specifically and I'm so glad you did because it's the perfect example of what I'm talking about. When HoT came out and we got our first elite specs. Mesmers got a new boon called Aclarity and when you talk about support mesmers EVERYONE wanted an Alac mesmer in their group. Mesmers were living large even if it was the only reason that anyone wanted them to come along. And then what happened? They gave it to everyone else. So they don't want you to actually provide the boons you're being build to because other people can do it themselves. ANd they don't want you solo playing because you're skills and traits either give your boos to other people or just don't function to keep you alive. So why the hell are you playing mesmer anymore other than to be the group mascot. And yes, I did read that if you apply boons to everyone else you get them yourself and I don't care. We still lost self sustain and now we just get to share in the lesser version we're distributing now.

And this one is just a personal gripe of mine. I get what they're doing, and it's strange. I don't often visit the WvW forums because I don't play it but I still get curious and one of the things I see pop up regularly is people asking, nay, begging Anet for a colorblind option because they're divided into Red, Green, and Blue teams (and Red/Green colorblindness is the most common form) and if you happen to be colorblind it makes WvW very hard to play. I am not colorblind, but I am legally blind and as such this shift to a more active form of gameplay is making my life more difficult. Yes, I know that's a "me" problem, and I have to deal with that. However I've found great benefit to playing signet builds just for less things to keep track of, and using things like Metaphysical Rejuvination to help sustain me while giving me less things I need to keep track of at one time. Yes, I still need to keep track of my HP but it gave me a buffer. It helped me. But the way things are going, as with the above response I made, I'm getting the feeling that Anet would be much happier if I just kittened off and went back to playing Candy Crush.

You really need to read what other people write. 

The MESMER is NOT losing self boons. 

ANYTIME the skill mentions it grants the boons to Allies it grants it to you as well.

You're losing up to 25% damage reduction sure. But it looks like it will be easy to maintain protection 100% of the time for a 33% damage reduction. Currently you only have a 33% chance to get 4 seconds of Protection if you're hit within 5 seconds of using a 25s CD skill. Or a guaranteed 3 seconds if you use the useless trait for it.

The mesmer can only keep Protection on themselves about 12% of the time. I am happy to get permanent Protection.

 

 

Regeneration is NOT an emergency heal. It is a maintenance boon that only really helps when you are taking low levels of slow damage.

It was useless as Metaphysical Rejuvenation because if it triggered you were going to need an emergency heal.

They are increasing the access to Regeneration for us Mesmers even playing solo. The boon is best when you get brought down to 90% to get you back fresh at 100% so lots of small amounts of damage don't build up before you can handle it.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

35 minutes ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

The more important question is why do you even need self sustain in open world in the first place?

And what kind of solo play that 2 dodges and a heal button isn't enough?

Playing in the expansion zones there are tons of areas where you need sustain playing solo.

Almost every single hero point in the expansion zones need sustain. With sustain you can tackle Bounties solo that aren't possible otherwise.

 

Mesmer has kitten sustain compared to any other class I play. I couldn't even complete the PoF story missions on my Chronomancer without having to start over 20ish times because there were just to many enemies that I could not sustain my health with dodging and the pitiful heals. I have virtually never died on any other class that I play but they actually have the tools to sustain.

[Teknomancer.4895]

8 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

I played what I affectionately called a "Punishment" build, a combination of Shutdown and Energy Denial build with Empathy, Backfire, Chaos Storm, Energy Burn, Energy Surge, Mind Wrack, and Anuerysm (and rebirth for reusable rez).

I mained Necro in GW1, but on Mesmer my go-to was Leech Signet, Power Drain, Tease, CoF, Mind Wrack, Cry of Pain, Ether Feast and the (Mo) Rebirth.  [OQNEAqoj+F1DkB4TlDEDYDiCITA]

Sometimes I'd go Me/Derv for some truly outrageous speed shenanigans. Illusionary Weaponry played quite well with Dervish Scythe skills.

[Mevelios.4809]

@ShadowKatt.6740 It's hard trying to get through to someone who refuses to listen (or read in this case), so it'll be my last reaction: simply through the new Illusionary inspiration, we'll be getting a 20% healing buff. That's on top of extra sources of protection and regen, including in the chaos spec. If that's taking away our self-sustain, then I'm absolutely disastrous at building my favorite character.

You also mentioned you were longing for profession exclusives - that I'll disagree with. That's the best way to go down having only one profile doing a single thing, making potential competitors useless and unwanted. What if it's a role you enjoy, but in its exclusive and single form, you just dislike its gameplay? I'd skip and leave for another game. You want to provide quickness, but dislike the chrono's wells? You can play firebrand. You dislike the chrono's wells but want to provide alacrity? There's the renegade. Back when both buffs were constantly available to the chrono, sure I liked it better but that's already been mentioned by someone else: it was toxic to the game. You play solo so you surely didn't realize it, but back then I'd be pestered (to be polite) anytime I joined a group to switch to chrono. It was just sickening at some point to be constantly told "play this thing so we have fun". That "we" didn't include me.

Don't be afraid of change, especially of this one that largely reproduces what we already had, moving it around a bit in each spec while providing new benefits - a real buff. I'm about to lose Illusionary defense in its current form, which I highly value for my survival as a melee mesmer. I'm not turning it into an opportunity for a lengthy rant as if it objectively were a disastrous loss for absolutely every mesmer, because it isn't - simply a shame for melee weapons viability... in MY opinion only, a worry nobody has openly shared so far (unless I missed it).

@Roadkizzle.2157 For what we lack in self sustain, we have a lot of dodging/blocking skills spread throughout our weapons, as well as dazes and aegis/stability/stun breaks. Which build were you having trouble with? Surely something can be worked out to make it more resilient, it'd be a nice opportunity to change gears too!

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

@Roadkizzle.2157 For what we lack in self sustain, we have a lot of dodging/blocking skills spread throughout our weapons, as well as dazes and aegis/stability/stun breaks. Which build were you having trouble with? Surely something can be worked out to make it more resilient, it'd be a nice opportunity to change gears too!

I've spent probably 80-90% of my time in the last year that I've played this game playing Chronomancer builds. I spent a few months playing Virtuoso since this summer but I've gone back to Chrono. I've played the next most of Necromancer both Scourge and Reaper. Then Guardian mostly Firebrand. 

Mesmer has a block on sword and shield only and the Sword 2 Evade. It really seems to have poor access to Aegis and Stability. Distortion is available on F4 but unless you know exactly when a one shot kill attack is coming it really isn't enough.

Other classes have much more active and passive defenses and also have much better heals.

[draxynnic.3719]

14 hours ago, Sansar.1302 said:

Healers and support dont fit guild wars 2 it where ment to be a game without those roles.

Amazing. Every word you wrote there was wrong.

Based on pre-release marketing for Guild Wars 2, support (which includes healing) was always supposed to be a role present in the game. The distinguishing factor was that unlike other MMOs, support wasn't supposed to be something that required you to play a specific profession, but something you could swap to with any profession.

The problem was that for a few years after release, they had a very fuzzy idea of what "support" actually meant. You had banners on warrior, venomshare on thief, healing on guardian (nothing by the standards of today's healers, but it was the best available at the time), mesmers dropping Time Warp - these were all viewed as the profession having a support role because you were doing something that assisted your allies. In practice, there were some forms of support that were actually worth taking (such as might stacking), while others weren't, and those that were worth taking could usually be played effectively on berserker builds so in practice it looked like full DPS groups.

HoT was the attempt at making support actually important again, and it succeeded - but, again, they missed what elements of support were actually wanted, so things like chronomancer providing quickness and alacrity was seen as equivalent to other supports. Obviously, it wasn't, which is why chronomancer became mandatory for raids until alternative sources were made available. Over time, ArenaNet figured out what it actually took to be good support in the combat and boon system of the game, and has been taking steps to reach that original goal of being able to perform every role on every profession. In an instanced PvE environment, there are essentially four: DPS, quickness, alacrity, and healer, with most builds that aren't pure DPS covering two of those roles. They're pretty close to hitting the original goal, the main shortfall being that some professions still can't really perform the healer role, and some that can are only able to perform it alongside one of the important boon roles, not both. The changes being discussed in this thread are an attempt to rectify that in mesmer's case by making it a viable healer.

TL;DR: Healer and support roles were always intended to be part of Guild Wars 2, they were just undertuned in the first few years of the game's lifespan so you didn't see them in practice during that period.

[Micah.3789]

18 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Also the clone on Heal skill is an utter dogshite trait that makes the reorganizing of  Inspiration traits kind of pointless because Healing Prism, even with how mediocre it was, is better then a clone on heal so you aren't really getting anything in return. Better boon gen but I don't think the healing will be there to make the build really work. Some of the better group support stuff is also tied up to Mantras which still have an obnoxiously long cast time.

Healing Prism wasn't replaced with the clone on heal; Illusionary Inspiration took its spot and things got moved around. While it doesn't make sense to directly compare them, I would like to point out the potential potency of the clone on heal. If it doesn't have an ICD, Mantra of Recovery will be able to proc it 3 times every ~12sec. With Illusionary Inspiration this is substantial healing, plus you get clones to shatter. You also seem to be missing the changes to Restorative Illusions. It has been moved to the Grandmaster tier and now shares its effects with allies. This amounts to a ~2-3k heal per 3 clone shatter. Even without mantras, there's a significant amount of healing here. 

11 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

You're losing up to 25% damage reduction sure. But it looks like it will be easy to maintain protection 100% of the time for a 33% damage reduction. Currently you only have a 33% chance to get 4 seconds of Protection if you're hit within 5 seconds of using a 25s CD skill. Or a guaranteed 3 seconds if you use the useless trait for it.

The mesmer can only keep Protection on themselves about 12% of the time. I am happy to get permanent Protection.

Math? 🙄 Doubt that's going to help if we can't manage basic reading comprehension. Jokes aside, I'd like to add that Illusionary Defense does not refresh duration when new stacks are applied. Therefore, you'd have to generate 5 clones every 5 sec to actually maintain the 25% damage reduction. Most builds will only maintain around 2, maybe 3 stacks for 10-15% reduction respectively. When you factor that in, consistent protection is a clear upgrade from what we have now, even for solo builds.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Micah.3789

[taara.3217]

13 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Playing in the expansion zones there are tons of areas where you need sustain playing solo. Almost every single hero point in the expansion zones need sustain. With sustain you can tackle Bounties solo that aren't possible otherwise. Mesmer has kitten sustain compared to any other class I play.

Mirage is the most suitable option for such kind of content

[dead.7638]

Being a Mesmer you learn to roll with the punches.   Tbh, the update for me doesn’t change my build but these changes are for the better.   Mesmer has had to deal with the lack of boons in an otherwise overwhelming amount boon spam meta for over a year.   

[Blur.3465]

I'm curious to see how this will affect Staff/Staff condi alac support Mirage.
It's my main build -- but seeing these changes makes me positive about it having even more support tools for the group, which is a lovely thing!

[Roadkizzle.2157]

48 minutes ago, Blur.3465 said:

I'm curious to see how this will affect Staff/Staff condi alac support Mirage.
It's my main build -- but seeing these changes makes me positive about it having even more support tools for the group, which is a lovely thing!

Alac Mirage wants to keep Clones for the ambushes but the Chaos changes will grant boons using Shatters removing the clones that would be providing Alac.

I'm interested to see how this will be balanced but I think it'll be better than it is now.

[Blur.3465]

31 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Alac Mirage wants to keep Clones for the ambushes but the Chaos changes will grant boons using Shatters removing the clones that would be providing Alac.

I'm interested to see how this will be balanced but I think it'll be better than it is now.

Even now we benefit by shattering clones for extra boons (if we pick that trait) and generating clones back up really fast.
I think it will buff up Mirage by a lot!

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

18 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Mesmer has kitten sustain compared to any other class I play. I couldn't even complete the PoF story missions on my Chronomancer without having to start over 20ish times because there were just to many enemies that I could not sustain my health with dodging and the pitiful heals. I have virtually never died on any other class that I play but they actually have the tools to sustain.

That's when I'd pull out a Greatsword and use the Illusionary Inspiration + Chronophantasma combo tbh, such a fun combo but it's a shame its only viable for guilty pleasure.

50 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Alac Mirage wants to keep Clones for the ambushes but the Chaos changes will grant boons using Shatters removing the clones that would be providing Alac.

I'm interested to see how this will be balanced but I think it'll be better than it is now.

If you take the clone on dodge trait in Dueling then Mirage can generate an infinite number of clones. We can also consider dropping Renewing Oasis for Self-Deception if the new Chaos traitline can indeed maintain Regen. The whole point of taking Renewing Oasis has been to upkeep Regen for Chaos anyway, so I'm a bit worried that it might become a useless trait now. But Shattering for boons definitely isn't going to be too difficult for Mirage.