Nov Balance, 2 Steps Backwards for Mesmer...

[Levetty.1279]

13 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

Healing Prism wasn't replaced with the clone on heal

Healing builds before patch:  Illusionary Inspiration, Restorative Illusions, Healing Prism

Healing builds after patch:  Illusionary Inspiration, Restorative Illusions, Clone on heal

[Roadkizzle.2157]

3 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

That's when I'd pull out a Greatsword and use the Illusionary Inspiration + Chronophantasma combo tbh, such a fun combo but it's a shame its only viable for guilty pleasure.

What? Decimate your damage so it takes twice as long to kill enemies for a measly 600 HP every 12-15 seconds? (According to Build editor without healing power Illusionary Inspiration only heals for 154 HP. Chronophantasma gives 4 Phantasms. 

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Healing builds before patch:  Illusionary Inspiration, Restorative Illusions, Healing Prism

Healing builds after patch:  Illusionary Inspiration, Restorative Illusions, Clone on heal

After patch I'll probably be using:

Medics Feedback, Temporal Enchanter, and Restorative Illusions.

I may swap it out to Sympathetic Visage, Wardens Feedback, and Restorative Illusions.

 

The clone on heal didn't replace Healing Prism because it opened the Master line to all the options.

[Micah.3789]

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Healing builds before patch:  Illusionary Inspiration, Restorative Illusions, Healing Prism

Healing builds after patch:  Illusionary Inspiration, Restorative Illusions, Clone on heal

After the patch healers will have more options than just that. Even if we use your example, it would be more accurate to compare Healing Prism to Restorative Illusions. We're trading 532(0.2) healing every 10sec for 360-936(0.77) healing and a condi cleanse every time we shatter. It's a massive upgrade for outgoing healing, especially when you include the likely 20% healing modifier we'll be gaining. It will be a very small loss on personal healing, but that's more than made up for with reliable regen and prot compared to before. 

[Roadkizzle.2157]

25 minutes ago, Micah.3789 said:

After the patch healers will have more options than just that. Even if we use your example, it would be more accurate to compare Healing Prism to Restorative Illusions. We're trading 532(0.2) healing every 10sec for 360-936(0.77) healing and a condi cleanse every time we shatter. It's a massive upgrade for outgoing healing, especially when you include the likely 20% healing modifier we'll be gaining. It will be a very small loss on personal healing, but that's more than made up for with reliable regen and prot compared to before. 

I just hope all they do to Restorative Illusions is add a Radius and move it to GM.

I really hope they don't add a Cooldown to the trait.

It could see them only giving a portion of the heal as an AOE but I still hope that they don't add a Cooldown.

 

If they just add AOE and keep the heal as it is that will greatly increase the healing output of the build. Would we even need a dedicated healing weapon then?

That would be the biggest group Healing trait that I know of.

[Mevelios.4809]

17 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Healer and support roles were always intended to be part of Guild Wars 2, they were just undertuned in the first few years of the game's lifespan so you didn't see them in practice during that period.

I do remember some saying at its release that GW2 was getting rid of the ever present triad tank/healer/damage dealer. Maybe that wasn't official marketing (yet I kinda remember the insertion of a heal skill presented as the solution to the healer role through official canals) but I'm pretty sure there were such a saying going around, so I get what @Sansar.1302 refers to.

22 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Mesmer has a block on sword and shield only and the Sword 2 Evade. It really seems to have poor access to Aegis and Stability. Distortion is available on F4 but unless you know exactly when a one shot kill attack is coming it really isn't enough.

Other classes have much more active and passive defenses and also have much better heals.

Using more than anything melee weapons, I can assure you there are solutions. The main threat largely comes from ranged attackers you can hardly pay attention to because of their spread, unlike melee enemies; both dueling & chaos specs can help, even if chrono has indeed the least ability (IMO) to endure pressure. I'll disregard chrono traits, if you've been playing mostly that e-spec, you surely know them well enough!

Dueling offers vigor on crits, Evasive mirror, or even two blindness sources in the form of Ineptitude and Blinding dissipation (for the latter, I'd rather bet on evasive mirror on this line). Using the shield offers you two blocks for two phantasms that blow themselves up in an AoE with a 10sec frame for use on Déjà vu, while Tides of time can work in pair with Ineptitude after stunning and gets rid of projectiles on its way, offering a longer survival. The sword offhand is a much more offensive option that doesn't really compare on defense against the shield, Illusionary riposte only counters a single attack then leaves a 0.5sec evade frame even if its CD is much faster. I'd resort to a sword on big game hunting; if surrounded by trash mobs however, I'd be more confident wielding a focus to pull several of them, dispatch them quickly, and resort to the Phantasmal warden to cover me from more ranged targets.

Chaos resorts rather to buffs. Illusionary defense's my favorite as a mirage when cumulated to protection out of my leap finishers for chaos armor (the Swap after Illusionary leap is one of them), but as a chrono you'd surely have more use for Master of manipulation by including skills such as Mimic (for any utility of your choice) or Arcane thievery if you notice some targets being hard on you with conditions. Blink in a smaller measure as a stunbreak if you're facing targets landing a lot of them; it can also let you reach without delay ranged targets you may find menacing. To stay on the topic of the chaos spec however, Method of madness is a largely valuable choice too - that's a Chaos storm with slightly less power damage (duh) and a shorter poison duration, but you're looking at it defensively as a daze on cast and aegis/resolution rolls - the first line is loaded with valuables. The second is your favorite pick between Chaotic transference (little use without a staff) and Auspicious anguish which you can influence with more ease if you lack tools to get rid of conditions; the third is up to you between CD reductions from interrupts (shield and focus synergy) or stability from shatters, which won't be lost in the coming update.

Then you've got the bunch of utilities. Beyond the manipulations above, humor me a bit - there are mantras for dazes, condition cleansing or stab+stunbreak. On a much more active play and disregarding the wells you know well, Feedback can provide extra safety from projectiles and the Phantasmal defender can take some heat off of you. As a chrono you've got access to alacrity, so even lengthy CDs can be shortened, as well as quickness if you want; despite mirage being my favorite, I've spent a fair amount of time playing chrono too, and very rarely have I croaked more than once during story battles (if I did go down). It's not as convenient as an extra health bar or a single instant use offering aegis on top of a healing, but we do have the tools to survive - a bit of observation on your foes will let you quickly identify which ones are the best suited for the situation!

And to be on the safe side, I'm using berserker gear, not some combination increasing vitality and/or toughness.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[Teknomancer.4895]

52 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

I do remember some saying at its release that GW2 was getting rid of the ever present triad tank/healer/damage dealer. Maybe that wasn't official marketing (yet I kinda remember the insertion of a heal skill presented as the solution to the healer role through official canals) but I'm pretty sure there were such a saying going around, so I get what @Sansar.1302 refers to.

It was indeed official:

Quote

Instead of the traditional trinity, every Guild Wars 2 profession is self reliant--not only can they all help each other by reviving in combat, but all professions have ways to build their characters differently to make them more versatile for group play.

Ultimately, DPS/heal/tank just didn't cut it in our book...er, game. Our players demand more from Guild Wars 2 and we intend to deliver on that demand instead of delivering more of the same. Not only is the trinity very formulaic, but it leaves out a lot of gameplay elements that make many other games so much fun. Instead, we break these trinity categories down into a cooler, more versatile system:

Source

Edited November 2, 2023 by Teknomancer.4895
fixed link

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

5 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

What? Decimate your damage so it takes twice as long to kill enemies for a measly 600 HP every 12-15 seconds? (According to Build editor without healing power Illusionary Inspiration only heals for 154 HP. Chronophantasma gives 4 Phantasms. 

Of course I'm talking strictly about clearing story instances and it's not a serious build. After all, it's better to take them down slowly than having to reset the whole thing.

And Illusionary Inspiration heals on clone summon too not just the phantasms, so actually it heals for 6 times (also Illusionary Inspiration heals for ~250 each, you automatically get some Healing Power due to Healing Prism. I know that it's going to go away soon, but still I'm talking about what I used to use). Combine that with Signet of the Ether (350 each) and that's quite a lot of self-heal, the Signet's active also allows you to re-trigger immediately the Inspiration-Chronophantasma combo. This is also not counting the occasional passive healing you get from Healing Prism, and the healing you get from Shattering due to Restorative Illusions.

That should be enough healing to plough through any story instances, and arguably even some HPs or Bounties.  

3 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

If they just add AOE and keep the heal as it is that will greatly increase the healing output of the build. Would we even need a dedicated healing weapon then?

That would be the biggest group Healing trait that I know of.

That's a good point, and I do think we don't need a healing weapon that much. That's never a requirement for a healer to be good anyway, comparably Heal Scourge also doesn't have a healing weapon and doesn't have as much healing output as we do, but it's currently still a very strong healing class.   

Edited November 2, 2023 by ZephidelGRS.9520

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

I do remember some saying at its release that GW2 was getting rid of the ever present triad tank/healer/damage dealer. Maybe that wasn't official marketing (yet I kinda remember the insertion of a heal skill presented as the solution to the healer role through official canals) but I'm pretty sure there were such a saying going around, so I get what @Sansar.1302 refers to.

They got rid of the standard triad, but as the link @Teknomancer.4895 gave shows, the intent was to replace it with a new, more general, triad: damage, support (including healing) and control (including tanking). Problem is that until HoT, defensive support just wasn't enough to matter, and control never managed to be a distinct role on its own, so the meta pre-HoT was making sure your group could max out on might and fury, bring Time Warp and possibly other utilities for cheesing specific fights, and go full damage.

They've since refined it, in PvE, to be damage, offensive support, and defensive support.

There's no point at which Guild Wars 2 was intended to have no healer or support roles. There was a period in the first couple of years where this happened by mistake, but the DPS-is-all-that-matters meta pre-HoT was never intended, it was just the result of the balancing at the time.

[Jitters.9401]

All I care about is how this will affect my roaming. 

I run either glass cannon virt or condi virt.

 

That change on the scepter I will wait and see. I enjoy the skill cooldown reduction for the scepter #2block to give my enemy a lot of torment with a shorter cooldown time to possibly save a life.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

12 hours ago, ZephidelGRS.9520 said:

Of course I'm talking strictly about clearing story instances and it's not a serious build. After all, it's better to take them down slowly than having to reset the whole thing.

And Illusionary Inspiration heals on clone summon too not just the phantasms, so actually it heals for 6 times (also Illusionary Inspiration heals for ~250 each, you automatically get some Healing Power due to Healing Prism. I know that it's going to go away soon, but still I'm talking about what I used to use). Combine that with Signet of the Ether (350 each) and that's quite a lot of self-heal, the Signet's active also allows you to re-trigger immediately the Inspiration-Chronophantasma combo. This is also not counting the occasional passive healing you get from Healing Prism, and the healing you get from Shattering due to Restorative Illusions.

That should be enough healing to plough through any story instances, and arguably even some HPs or Bounties.  

That's a good point, and I do think we don't need a healing weapon that much. That's never a requirement for a healer to be good anyway, comparably Heal Scourge also doesn't have a healing weapon and doesn't have as much healing output as we do, but it's currently still a very strong healing class.   

I really don't want to keep going through this because it really is not pertinent to the topic... But I feel like I need to respond.

I spent all most of my time until recently playing with Inspiration and with the Greatsword.

Even with full Exotic Berserker gear it took forever to kill trash mobs in PoF or HoT and they pile up on you like crazy especially in events or the PoF story. And Inspiration just wasn't enough to keep me alive ever.

I eventually did get a set of Bladed Armor for Celestial stats and hit more like a noodle but could at least stay alive.

I have no idea why I can't stop coming back to my mesmer when I am so much more successful on literally any of my other characters. I just can't pull myself away from the struggle.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

5 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

All I care about is how this will affect my roaming. 

I run either glass cannon virt or condi virt.

 

That change on the scepter I will wait and see. I enjoy the skill cooldown reduction for the scepter #2block to give my enemy a lot of torment with a shorter cooldown time to possibly save a life.

Well Condi Virtuoso can use either the Chaos or Duelling traitline.

Chaos was considered to be almost entirely a group oriented spec because Mesmer doesn't have good Regeneration uptime. Even with bountiful disillusion the Distortion trait has a 50 second cooldown so you have low uptime.

 

Duelling and Illusions is already the more powerful option and i know it worked very well for me. It gets decent self sustain with the Signet and the heal on condi dmg trait.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

But I think Chaos Virtuoso will likely be the casualty from this change. But some people may figure out how to get it to work still. I just haven't figured out Virtuoso will be able to get Chaos Aura uptime for the dmg buffs.

[Xaylin.1860]

13 minutes ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

But I think Chaos Virtuoso will likely be the casualty from this change. But some people may figure out how to get it to work still. I just haven't figured out Virtuoso will be able to get Chaos Aura uptime for the dmg buffs.

Funnily enough, Power Virt will probably have an easier time keeping up Chaos Armor thanks to Sword MH/OH if you bring at least some Glamours. Which, of course, doesn't really benefits from the buff while having Chaos Armor active. Still, could be a fun non-meta build.

For Condi, I personally don't like any available options/combinations due to how Jagged Mind works (or to say it differently: the total lack of synergies with core Mesmer). Unless you want to drop Jagged Mind and Dagger, you might as well run Condi Mirage (many leaps) or even Chrono if you want to focus on Shattering.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

Funnily enough, Power Virt will probably have an easier time keeping up Chaos Armor thanks to Sword MH/OH if you bring at least some Glamours. Which, of course, doesn't really benefits from the buff while having Chaos Armor active. Still, could be a fun non-meta build.

For Condi, I personally don't like any available options/combinations due to how Jagged Mind works (or to say it differently: the total lack of synergies with core Mesmer). Unless you want to drop Jagged Mind and Dagger, you might as well run Condi Mirage (many leaps) or even Chrono if you want to focus on Shattering.

I had thought about trying a Sword Virtuoso for a support build with the new change.

 

Chaos Virtuoso may work decently with Axe. But I think the standard dagger Dueling Virt will be better.

[Teknomancer.4895]

7 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

I have no idea why I can't stop coming back to my mesmer when I am so much more successful on literally any of my other characters. I just can't pull myself away from the struggle.

Right? I think it's because we know what it could be capable of, and keep trying to squeeze that out of it somehow. Even though we know it will fail, over and over. That date/time stamp in my sig is my Mesmer, and after all this time he's still my main even though almost every other character I have can handle most content more easily.

Gluttons for punishment, I guess. Even if we're not really the punishment class anymore.

[aetemes.2603]

On 10/31/2023 at 8:41 AM, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

Where is there "break stun stability spam"?

 

The only new stability I see with Mesmer is Bountiful Disillusion giving Stability on F4. But with a 50 second cooldown that won't be spammable.

looool I forgot that sword 2 is a blur...

But still with the signets give distortion trait I guess and the reset shatters..and if chrono....but that would compete with the break stun one...I dunno I was trying to be optimistic..trust me I can't stand their approach or ideas to most things it ends up somehow making everything extremley boring and worse than it ever was...so I am not holding my breath xD. I am just trying to keep it together xD.

I know for sure they want mesmer to "stay in its place"....so..shrug.

That all being said. I still feel like these changes sound more supporty than what mesmer is right now...just gotta wait and see cause it's coming regardless they don't care what anyone types.

Btw I think the compounding power condi change is a nerf to builds that are not condi geared but use condi...perhaps they are targeting bunker chrono in pvp..I dunno..just 🤮 whatever.

Edited November 3, 2023 by aetemes.2603

[Mevelios.4809]

25 minutes ago, aetemes.2603 said:

I still feel like these changes sound more supporty than what mesmer is right now...just gotta wait and see cause it's coming regardless they don't care what anyone types.

Btw I think the compounding power condi change is a nerf to builds that are not condi geared but use condi...perhaps they are targeting bunker chrono in pvp..I dunno..just 🤮 whatever.

They do care, unless it's a happy (and huge) coincidence so much of the ideas we mentioned in the linked topics were pushed for the next update. It doesn't prevent playing any current build we may have, besides a tanky one.

The new compounding power is fine with me, it brings in line the bonus with its power-based counterpart. The coming Illusionary membrane change I'm more doubtful about; I imagine it'll rather be a flat stat gain instead of the former 10% condi damage (basically both traits simply exchange the nature of their bonuses) which is fine for my personal use, but the real issue IMO after some thought is tying it to having the chaos armor. The staff will be in an even better position than it already is against other condi weapons, the axe being the only one providing a leap finisher (so you still need to source the ethereal field somehow, against the staff's fourth skill & chaos storm+phase retreat); even moreso for the mirage e-spec which will happily jaunt in any ethereal field. I worry a bit this will drive us down a single path to play - virtuoso may compete, but even if it does the staff may completely overshadow every other condi weapon.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

3 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

They do care, unless it's a happy (and huge) coincidence so much of the ideas we mentioned in the linked topics were pushed for the next update. It doesn't prevent playing any current build we may have, besides a tanky one.

The new compounding power is fine with me, it brings in line the bonus with its power-based counterpart. The coming Illusionary membrane change I'm more doubtful about; I imagine it'll rather be a flat stat gain instead of the former 10% condi damage (basically both traits simply exchange the nature of their bonuses) which is fine for my personal use, but the real issue IMO after some thought is tying it to having the chaos armor. The staff will be in an even better position than it already is against other condi weapons, the axe being the only one providing a leap finisher (so you still need to source the ethereal field somehow, against the staff's fourth skill & chaos storm+phase retreat); even moreso for the mirage e-spec which will happily jaunt in any ethereal field. I worry a bit this will drive us down a single path to play - virtuoso may compete, but even if it does the staff may completely overshadow every other condi weapon.

The builds I'm most worried about are the ones trying to use the Chaos traitline as a DPS build.

 

I'm requesting that they keep the stat bonuses from the traitline tied to Regeneration and not Chaos Armor.

The Chaos changes they made don't really touch the DPS traits otherwise.

The stacking defense is lower than that granted by Protection. In Solo play Mesmer couldn't access reliable Protection. And in group play you have the healing from the group and I am quite sure the 10% or so defense you reasonably actually had will not be noticeable in 99% of situations.

They didn't touch the DPS Master trait, and they didn't take away self boons from Bountiful Disillusion they just gave them a radius.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

4 hours ago, aetemes.2603 said:

looool I forgot that sword 2 is a blur...

But still with the signets give distortion trait I guess and the reset shatters..and if chrono....but that would compete with the break stun one...I dunno I was trying to be optimistic..trust me I can't stand their approach or ideas to most things it ends up somehow making everything extremley boring and worse than it ever was...so I am not holding my breath xD. I am just trying to keep it together xD.

I know for sure they want mesmer to "stay in its place"....so..shrug.

That all being said. I still feel like these changes sound more supporty than what mesmer is right now...just gotta wait and see cause it's coming regardless they don't care what anyone types.

Btw I think the compounding power condi change is a nerf to builds that are not condi geared but use condi...perhaps they are targeting bunker chrono in pvp..I dunno..just 🤮 whatever.

What spec do you play that you are expecting to be affected by the changes?

 

Mesmer was a strong support class from the start of GW2. It was only within the last year or two that they destroyed any supportive abilities.

This change is actually getting the Mesmer closer to what it was designed as.

 

I REALLY do not want them to kill off DPS mesmer builds to enable Support mesmer to shine. But especially if the stat buffs in Chaos remain tied to Regeneration I really don't see this change impacting any of them.

Edited November 3, 2023 by Roadkizzle.2157

[Mevelios.4809]

1 hour ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

I'm requesting that they keep the stat bonuses from the traitline tied to Regeneration and not Chaos Armor.

Though I'm not targeting that specific boon, we agree on this point - I find it disturbing as well that it's tied to having chaos armor, especially (in my view) considering the discrepancies in access to it between weapons.

1 hour ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

The stacking defense is lower than that granted by Protection. In Solo play Mesmer couldn't access reliable Protection. And in group play you have the healing from the group and I am quite sure the 10% or so defense you reasonably actually had will not be noticeable in 99% of situations.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough: they're cumulative. Protection & Illusionary defense can work hand in hand for a massive damage reduction, hence my part about reducing the attractiveness of melee weapons by removing it. It's a pain to maintain since duration of all stacks doesn't reset on acquiring a new one, still the benefit is simply colossal when you're not sitting at 1200 range but prefer bringing the fight close & personal like me. You can endure hits as well as heavy armor wielders. Most builds will indeed be able to maintain two, occasionally three stacks at most; it's still a nice reduction for any mesmer willing to play in melee despite its light armor, and as a mirage main, obviously Self-deception works wonders with it. Deceptive evasion is still an option for others, but remains the most handy for a mirage for a far higher survivability against bosses, legendaries, or champions to fight on your own.

If you know what you're doing, you can make some tanky, unkillable mirage if you want to (more than ordinary). That's why it's a huge loss for me; all users regardless of specs can benefit from it, but a mirage with high toughness can focus attention of bosses/legendaries and so on to assist friends or guildmates learning the ropes on some activities. Without it I wouldn't be as confident jumping into melee as I do currently!

Edited November 3, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[Roadkizzle.2157]

37 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Though I'm not targeting that specific boon, we agree on this point - I find it disturbing as well that it's tied to having chaos armor, especially (in my view) considering the discrepancies in access to it between weapons.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough: they're cumulative. Protection & Illusionary defense can work hand in hand for a massive damage reduction, hence my part about reducing the attractiveness of melee weapons by removing it. It's a pain to maintain since duration of all stacks doesn't reset on acquiring a new one, still the benefit is simply colossal when you're not sitting at 1200 range but prefer bringing the fight close & personal like me. You can endure hits as well as heavy armor wielders. Most builds will indeed be able to maintain two, occasionally three stacks at most; it's still a nice reduction for any mesmer willing to play in melee despite its light armor, and as a mirage main, obviously Self-deception works wonders with it. Deceptive evasion is still an option for others, but remains the most handy for a mirage for a far higher survivability against bosses, legendaries, or champions to fight on your own.

If you know what you're doing, you can make some tanky, unkillable mirage if you want to (more than ordinary). That's why it's a huge loss for me; all users regardless of specs can benefit from it, but a mirage with high toughness can focus attention of bosses/legendaries and so on to assist friends or guildmates learning the ropes on some activities. Without it I wouldn't be as confident jumping into melee as I do currently!

I agree that Protection and Illusionary Defense combine to make a tougher character...

I just think that's mostly useful in Solo gameplay but Mesmer has very low access to Protection currently. And it's hard to maintain 5 stacks of Illusionary Defense that each drop off on their own timer. So in real gameplay solo Mesmers currently only get an average of about 20% damage reduction over a fight (Illusionary Defense and low uptime on Protection). But the new change will help them maintain permanent Protection giving them 33% DR.

In groups there can be a Support providing Protection to the Mesmer so they stack. But in groups there is already more support so the additional DR isn't as impactful in the majority of content.

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Yay more condi/chaos/inspi braindeadness!

[Mevelios.4809]

2 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

I just think that's mostly useful in Solo gameplay but Mesmer has very low access to Protection currently. [...] But the new change will help them maintain permanent Protection giving them 33% DR.

I'm not denying that; it's true that I didn't detail my idea any farther. It could simply replace another trait rather than this particular one such as Master of manipulation, however I do not have a huge experience of PvP/WvW so I'd rather ask for the opinion of regulars in such content (I'd like such players' insight on this particular subject) whether they find use in it or not. Method of madness seems more popular and I definitely get why since you can already get aegis out of it alongside the rest we know of the Lesser chaos storm; still our manipulation utilities do come handy so I wouldn't blindly ask for the current master of manipulation to be removed. Having both the current & coming forms of Illusionary defense on the same line would be much fairer, otherwise on different lines they could cumulate on the chaos spec and make something excessive.

I do find the mechanic interesting (and logical) in itself for the new effect. It fits well the coming return of support mesmer; I'm really having trouble seeing it'll come at the cost of a tanky cumulative option which brings us more or less on par with heavy armor wielders for better melee survival. I could disregard it to solo champions, but much less for the sake of more challenging content while wearing toughness gear (legendary targets & instanced group content) or during meta events in open world, where I can't see a kitten thing with the visual clutter. It's really tied to what I experience in melee and the difference in how long I stay up; being at range is much safer.

2 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

it's hard to maintain 5 stacks of Illusionary Defense that each drop off on their own timer. So in real gameplay solo Mesmers currently only get an average of about 20% damage reduction over a fight (Illusionary Defense and low uptime on Protection).

It's hard indeed, yet I find it fair considering the cumulative opportunity it offers (even on a somewhat average upkeep of three stacks, it's still a reduction close to half of incoming damages, it's already huge). It can easily be compared to the catalyst's Hardened auras, which are a lot easier to maintain (duration renewal at each new stack for max 10s length), however for less effectiveness (max 10% against our hard-to-achieve 25%).

Here's the thing (at least my way of using it): I rely on Illusionary defense as some sort of defensive burst (we're used to offensive ones, so here's the opposite) whenever I find myself running low on endurance and want to build it back. That's why I find the way it works fair - a pain to maintain, but the objective isn't so much to keep it up at length; it's to provide an emergency extra defense when all other means are about to miss. An easy way to accumulate such stacks is to link Sand through glass into Jaunt back where you used the evade, so your target doesn't try to follow you. If you already had a clone up (which you definitely should playing this way) with Self-deception active (the whole point of the synergy between these respective traits) while wielding a sword to make use of its ambush attack, you get a full second of evading to generate three stacks, a very welcome help when under high pressure. Mirage advance (which despite its animation is not a leap finisher) & retreat can reliably provide two more, the advance not displacing you randomly around your target - in opposition to Illusionary ambush, though it still generates as many stacks when wielding a sword. Crystal sands does allow two stacks as well, same as the healing False oasis despite a delay.

Of course, you can already rely on every Mirage mirror-generating skill for an evened, sustained lower amount of stacks. Still, I keep thinking roles (name them in the ordinary tank/healer/DmgDealer triad on on what's closer to GW2 actual play, with strike DD/condi DD/support) shouldn't be exclusively tied to a single e-spec to allow players to find which form they enjoy the most, so there's more to consider for the sake of synergies with other e-specs.

Pulling off all five stacks of defense with chrono is harder for its lower illusion summoning ability, but there are still core clone/phantasm utilities (you don't want the Decoy because of its stealth, yet you still have the Well of precognition generating aegis on each pulse). On the opposite, virtuoso can be even more adept at maintaining all five stacks with its incredible blade output that outshines even the mirage's clones. Really, losing the current illusionary defense is a huge loss IMO for some handy tanky profile that lets you train with guildmates or friends on tougher targets! Maybe it'd even put virtuoso already on par with mirage for soloing big game targets. Gotta test it firsthand now!

In real gameplay however, making up an average %reduction as if damages always were incoming linearily is too risky a thing. This is unlike heal or damage averages; here the approach is one of a tank, for whom at the first sign of a heavy blow coming your way when all defenses are down, you simply end up out of the fight and ruin it, if it relied on you enduring the attacks.

2 hours ago, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

In groups there can be a Support providing Protection to the Mesmer so they stack. But in groups there is already more support so the additional DR isn't as impactful in the majority of content.

Hence the possibility of cumulating the effects for a profession you'd otherwise never imagine taking hits! Any boon donkey can indeed provide protection, and with the coming update, so would we. Take away these current defensive stacks, and that's for sure a tanky possibility that'll disappear with it when it could instead replace Master of manipulation - though again, I'd like the input of PvP/WvW regulars, whether they really rely on it or not (since in PvE, we clearly won't even with the coming update)!

Edited November 3, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[Levetty.1279]

I also enjoy not taking healing traits on my healing build.