As a casual player: Virtuoso, Chronomancer or Mirage?

[Lucius.2140]

On 11/3/2023 at 12:49 PM, Panda.1967 said:

People are giving you the wrong advice left and right here… Virtuoso and Mirage are the meta picks for Mesmer but they are NOT the most casual friendly.

Virtuoso: Mesmer without clones, learn to be highly mobile as standing still will kill you.

Mirage: Turret mode mesmer, very little movement required but mistime a dodge or mirage mirror and you will die.

I think you are spot on.

To add some points(in my opinion) that could help Cookiemonster (out of specialization thematic- taste):

1: If you are going casual what you want is a build that has both a low skill floor (is less demanding in skills to work well since the start), enough sustain to make mistakes, good results wihout much focus and also (that it simplify how much you need to do (less skills to use, less to no rotation).

2: Mirage is out of question if you arent playing actively, it has both the higher skill floor and the higher skill ceiling of all mesmer elite specializations. As explained by Panda, is centered around moving and phasing (dodging) is a more dynamic build.

3: Virtuoso simplify the clone dynamics to none existent but is more depending on shatters than normal mesmer.

The point around this is simple:; if you arent going to mind much actively using shatters, then virtuoso isn't for you.

4: Clones that are present in all mesmer specs except virtuso will reduce your agro without management (casuals builds are centered in the open world were this dynamic works better ). 

5: If you arent focusing on shatters the logic goes to either mesmer or chronomancer. Chrono is better it has both a lower skill floor and a higher skill ceiling than most core mesmer builds, specially in the clone/phantom theme.

It allows doble phantom spawning which is a easy way to elevate dps without much work (the phantom skills will do damage alone twice instead of once) and also has faster clone generation.

At this point it could be either a condition build with some piece of vit/tough/ condi and others of power/prec/condi/expertise.

Or a build that has for example power/prec/ferocity/vitality (i dont know what a good set of stats could be for no EoD accounts, maybe combining stats) and centers around double phantoms.

Condition itself requires more time to build damage, so maybe power will be better.

6: Another important part here is the level of damage that is necesary in open world, that is reduced to enough that a veteran can die fast enough, the rest can go to survivality.. I will recommend to add the inspiration traitline and add some survivility traits, the idea here is that you balance enough damage and surviving /makign mistakes.

 

Note: Whatever build you add you can tweak it later according to the skill level you are and how confortable you are playing with it.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Lucius.2140

[Roadkizzle.2157]

Quote

 

54 minutes ago, Lucius.2140 said:

I think you are spot on.

To add some points(in my opinion) that could help Cookiemonster (out of specialization thematic- taste):

1: If you are going casual what you want is a build that has both a low skill floor (is less demanding in skills to work well since the start), enough sustain to make mistakes, good results wihout much focus and also (that it simplify how much you need to do (less skills to use, less to no rotation).

2: Mirage is out of question if you arent playing actively, it has both the higher skill floor and the higher skill ceiling of all mesmer elite specializations. As explained by Panda, is centered around moving and phasing (dodging) is a more dynamic build.

3: Virtuoso simplify the clone dynamics to none existent but is more depending on shatters than normal mesmer.

The point around this is simple:; if you arent going to mind much actively using shatters, then virtuoso isn't for you.

4: Clones that are present in all mesmer specs except virtuso will reduce your agro without management (casuals builds are centered in the open world were this dynamic works better ). 

5: If you arent focusing on shatters the logic goes to either mesmer or chronomancer. Chrono is better it has both a lower skill floor and a higher skill ceiling than most core mesmer builds, specially in the clone/phantom theme.

It allows doble phantom spawning which is a easy way to elevate dps without much work (the phantom skills will do damage alone twice instead of once) and also has faster clone generation.

At this point it could be either a condition build with some piece of vit/tough/ condi and others of power/prec/condi/expertise.

Or a build that has for example power/prec/ferocity/vitality (i dont know what a good set of stats could be for no EoD accounts, maybe combining stats) and centers around double phantoms.

Condition itself requires more time to build damage, so maybe power will be better.

6: Another important part here is the level of damage that is necesary in open world, that is reduced to enough that a veteran can die fast enough, the rest can go to survivality.. I will recommend to add the inspiration traitline and add some survivility traits, the idea here is that you balance enough damage and surviving /makign mistakes.

 

Note: Whatever build you add you can tweak it later according to the skill level you are and how confortable you are playing with it.

You do realize that you can play Mirage multiple ways right?

 

You are describing Axe Mirage, which is the most complicated Mesmer spec.

The recommended Mirage spec is the Staff Mirage though.

With Staff Mirage you just keybind Dodge to any key on your keyboard and you press that button every few seconds as soon as your endurance bar fills up enough.

Doing nothing more than that, maintaining some clones, and just using your movement keys will let you easily solo anything.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

1 hour ago, Lucius.2140 said:

1: If you are going casual what you want is a build that has both a low skill floor (is less demanding in skills to work well since the start), enough sustain to make mistakes, good results wihout much focus and also (that it simplify how much you need to do (less skills to use, less to no rotation).

You and I must have different games installed.

 

As I've said. I've played much more Chronomancer in GW2 than ANY other spec in the game.

The Chronomancer clearly has the highest skill floor of any Mesmer build except for the Axe Mirage which is higher.

The Chronomancer absolutely has the worst sustain of any Mesmer spec.

The Chronomancer is the piano spec with the most rigid rotation to do anything.

It fails on every count that you say a casual spec should do.

[Lucius.2140]

On 11/6/2023 at 11:17 AM, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

All things you said... 

I haven't used staff mirage much so i will pass on to opinate about it.

About the rest:

- About mirage in general, not only axe, "phasing" is more difficult than dodging, because dodging repositionate you away of damage (generally), this allows the player to get advantage in survibility. What makes "phasing" contextually better is the dps you get that doesn't interrupt and not need to reposisionate towards the enemy to attack again (if the player is interested in it).

The easier form to see this is to compare dodging an AoE area and "phasing" an AoE area, if the AoE persist the "phasing" let you to take it (the damage area continue hurting you) and the dodge put you away of it (generally).

- I'm not expecting a casual build to use rotations, that means all the complications of chrono are going to be ignored (im not counting shatters to be used) towards a game build that spawn clones or use doble phantasms and specially knows about autoattack xd. That i described alredy.

- The complicated rotations of chrono are only "necesary" in raid level content. And i put " " because at this point we do raids faster than intended because dps.

-  For not SoTo users chrono is the only one that has access to shield, which is the off hand with most sustain and a very powerfull heal in the well.

- Just saw a metabatle linked video of a staff mirage soloing a champion , that's not casual level gameplay. However i can't talk about the build in any other situation, after all soloing a champion isn't what you usually asociate with casual.

- Yeah i readed sloppily about your experience with chrono, 1 year isn't exactly a big deal for any veteran player xd

Edited November 23, 2023 by Lucius.2140

[Mell.4873]

On 11/4/2023 at 6:49 AM, Panda.1967 said:

People are giving you the wrong advice left and right here… Virtuoso and Mirage are the meta picks for Mesmer but they are NOT the most casual friendly. Both specs may be somewhat easy to learn, but they both require you to be very precise on timings and are unforgiving when you make mistakes. Chronomancer on the otherhand is not only easy to learn, but easy to play,  and very forgiving of mistakes… the reason no one has suggested Chronomancer to you is because it is not the meta pick. The only difficult part of chronomancer is mastering the use of Continuum Split, which you can actually get by just fine not even using in most content. So as a casual player learn the spec without worrying about continuum split and then when you feel comfortable with how it plays practice adding it into your routine before attempting more difficult content.

 

because I know someone out there is going to accuse me of giving bad advice on this I’ll explain exactly why Chronomancer is the most casual friendly mesmer espec.

Chronomancer is the ONLY mesmer espec that plays exactly like core mesmer. Even when you do learn how to properly use Continuum Split the playstyle is still identical to core. You don’t have to learn a new playstyle to play chronomancer. With Virtuoso you have to learn to play mesmer without clones to occasionally take damage off of you, Virtuoso is still easier to learn and play than Mirage though… Mirage is by far the least casual friendly since you have to maintain mirage cloak at as close to 100% up time as you can get it not just for survival but for damage too. One mistake on Mirage can very easily mean death. With Chronomancer the only thing you have to worry about is clone management and shattering… everything else will just happen as you do that. Exactly like core mesmer.

Chronomancer: Core Mesmer with an extra shatter and ground target AoEs.

Virtuoso: Mesmer without clones, learn to be highly mobile as standing still will kill you.

Mirage: Turret mode mesmer, very little movement required but mistime a dodge or mirage mirror and you will die.

I have to agree Chronomancer is probably the best pick for casual play especially since you get access to either Quickness or Alacrity and it is a  pure Power spec. 

Condition damage isn't very good in Casual setting except for maybe an Inspiration Virtuoso. 

[Twilightmage.8309]

I still think power mirage with a gs/dagger is the easiest to play casually because you don't really shatter much so your clones are soaking a lot, your dodge is on a low cd due to building around it, and your rotation is really simple.

[Mell.4873]

21 hours ago, Lucius.2140 said:

- I'm not expecting a casual build to use rotations, that means all the complications of chrono are going to be ignored (im not counting shatters to be used) towards a game build that spawn clones or use doble phantasms and specially knows about autoattack xd. That i described alredy.

- The complicated rotations of chrono are only "necesary" in raid level content. And i put " " because at this point we do raids faster than intended because dps.

-  For not SoTo users chrono is the only one that has access to shield, which is the off hand with most sustain and a very powerfull heal in the well.

- Just saw a metabatle linked video of a staff mirage soloing a champion , that's not casual level gameplay. However i can't talk about the build in any other situation, after all soloing a champion isn't what you usually asociate with casual.

- Yeah i readed sloppily about your experience with chrono, 1 year isn't exactly a big deal for any veteran player xd

I wouldn't say Chronomancer has a rotation most of the time you need to read between the lines of what you see on Metabattle and Snowcrows. Chronomancer is about clones management and spamming skills. 

Most of your Damage comes from Phantasms and instantly bring them off cooldown with Ether Signet plus Continuum Split.

 

Step 1: Continuum Split

Step 2: Spam Phantasms

Step 3: Signet of the Ether

Step 4: Spam Phantasms

Then repeat steps 2 to 4 after continuum split reverses. 

 

You will also be able to gauge how much of this you need. For example you might only need Continuum Split for small fights. 

[Joxer.6024]

On 11/24/2023 at 3:19 PM, Mell.4873 said:

I have to agree Chronomancer is probably the best pick for casual play especially since you get access to either Quickness or Alacrity and it is a  pure Power spec. 

Condition damage isn't very good in Casual setting except for maybe an Inspiration Virtuoso. 

OH!! Just what I wanted to see! I am wanting to play Chrono in OW, i.e. casual but keep getting told dont. Im not a fan of Virt as the just press 1 is a tad boring. I mean it does great damage but the playing of gets me down. I feel Chrono would be more engaging...as long as I am not a baby Ele, lol.  😉

So do share any info in regards to OW Chrono if you can. Thank you!

Edited December 22, 2023 by Joxer.6024

[Dadnir.5038]

As a casual player? Chrono.

Why? It got +25% movement speed baseline and that's basically all you really need to feel good as a "casual" player.

[Joxer.6024]

15 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

As a casual player? Chrono.

Why? It got +25% movement speed baseline and that's basically all you really need to feel good as a "casual" player.

sustain?

[Dadnir.5038]

3 minutes ago, Joxer.6024 said:

sustain?

Nope, you don't need sustain, only beginners need sustain.

[Joxer.6024]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Nope, you don't need sustain, only beginners need sustain.

lol, thats me in a nutshell!!!  😉

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Joxer.6024 said:

OH!! Just what I wanted to see! I am wanting to play Chrono in OW, i.e. casual but keep getting told dont. Im not a fan of Virt as the just press 1 is a tad boring. I mean it does great damage but the playing of gets me down. I feel Chrono would be more engaging...as long as I am not a baby Ele, lol.  😉

So do share any info in regards to OW Chrono if you can. Thank you!

Really anything goes but the general rule is Illusions traitline the pick Persistence of Memory, Phantasmal Haste and Phantasmal Force. This way you absorb any quickness and might your phantasms have and they are stronger.

I would also add there are way to make both Mirage and Virtuoso casual friendly but they require alot of gear. Chronomancer can just run full Berserkers. 

[Joxer.6024]

2 minutes ago, Mell.4873 said:

Really anything goes but the general rule is Illusions traitline the pick Persistence of Memory, Phantasmal Haste and Phantasmal Force. This way you absorb any quickness and might your phantasms have and they are stronger.

I would also add there are way to make both Mirage and Virtuoso casual friendly but they require alot of gear. Chronomancer can just run full Berserkers. 

I've got full cele so tend to lean in that direction. After much reading I am wondering if maybe I give my cVirt another look...

Cheers  for the info!  😉

[Mell.4873]

1 minute ago, Joxer.6024 said:

I've got full cele so tend to lean in that direction. After much reading I am wondering if maybe I give my cVirt another look...

Cheers  for the info!  😉

If you can get 100% critical chance plus Bleed duration sure. It's just not something everyone can do especially if we are taking casual.

I personally use a Chaos Condition Virtuoso with Relic of Durability for more Regeneration applications. It is also half Celestial with that double 100%.

It is more for groups through since it is higher DPS compared to Chronomancer. 

[Strider.7849]

If you only have time to play one part of the professions, I would say go with Chronomancer.

Lots of build diversity within that one elite spec. For WvW you can run boon rip/support, have a commander build, small group roaming..

For PvE you only need one set of gear to be able to run DPS/support and can provide either alac or quickness.. same set can be used to go full DPS. It also has the all new healer build which is great too. 

Overall, I personally find it more fun than say, Virtuoso, because I do like the clones and ability to use them - even though many mesmers claim to hate them. I saw similar things in the ranger forums with people who hated having a pet. To each their own, but I enjoy them because of these things.

[Lucy.3728]

On 11/3/2023 at 6:49 PM, Panda.1967 said:

Virtuoso and Mirage are the meta picks for Mesmer but they are NOT the most casual friendly. Both specs may be somewhat easy to learn, but they both require you to be very precise on timings and are unforgiving when you make mistakes. Chronomancer on the otherhand is not only easy to learn, but easy to play,  and very forgiving of mistakes… the reason no one has suggested Chronomancer to you is because it is not the meta pick.

Why shouldn't Chrono be meta?

Chrono was always too much hassle for my taste. Too much micro managing.  Bothering with time split. And the clones, all the time.

While mirage, which I started about 2-3 months ago, is casual. Right my taste. I give a kitten about timing and rotas and as Chrono that often had a bad outcome for me (downstate ahoy), while it is chillier as mirage.

Didn't try virtuoso but then again mesmer isn't any of my preferred classes but when I play it I want it easy. Easy like minion master for necro at best.
No more chrono tyvm. (I specced Chrono when it was meta, like 3 years ago)

Edited December 22, 2023 by Lucy.3728

[Panda.1967]

1 hour ago, Lucy.3728 said:

Why shouldn't Chrono be meta?

Chrono was always too much hassle for my taste. Too much micro managing.  Bothering with time split. And the clones, all the time.

While mirage, which I started about 2-3 months ago, is casual. Right my taste. I give a kitten about timing and rotas and as Chrono that often had a bad outcome for me (downstate ahoy), while it is chillier as mirage.

Didn't try virtuoso but then again mesmer isn't any of my preferred classes but when I play it I want it easy. Easy like minion master for necro at best.
No more chrono tyvm. (I specced Chrono when it was meta, like 3 years ago)

I don’t have an answer as to why it shouldn’t be meta… I main Chrono and I love it… and I think it SHOULD be meta… there also isn’t nearly as much micromanaging as people claim there is… it just seems that way when you are first trying to learn how to use continuum split. The clone management is identical to core mesmer. Scepter Shield Chrono is extremely tanky and lets you shatter spam effortlessly… you don’t need to micromanage clones at all, you just shattet them every time you have 3. Mirage has more clone micromanagement than Chrono does. Mirage actually cares about the clones’ auto attacks for their Ambush skill, so Mirage has to balance when to and when not to shatter thus being mindful of when they may waste a clone generation. Chrono doesn’t care. For Chrono, clones exist only to be shattered and provide a momentary distraction. It is a very chill and laid back espec.

Continuum Split is the only micromanagey part of Chrono, and only if you try to squeeze every last bit of utility out of it… when you stop trying to use it for a full reset and just use it as a force multiplier, it’s actually a lot easier to manage. Don’t try to use it to save you from fatal damage, you will die. Use it to start a burst damage phase and as an opener. It is one button used once every minute or so. The rest of the espec is identical playstyle to core mesmer…

 

for the record, BTW; I hate that mesmer got turned into this clone shatter mess… I love the addition of clones to mesmer, but they should have been done differently IMO… phantasms function closer to how clones should have been. Mesmer class mechanic should have been Hexes. We should have been a much more CC and condition focused profession than we turned out to be.

[Mell.4873]

6 hours ago, Lucy.3728 said:

Why shouldn't Chrono be meta?

Chrono was always too much hassle for my taste. Too much micro managing.  Bothering with time split. And the clones, all the time.

While mirage, which I started about 2-3 months ago, is casual. Right my taste. I give a kitten about timing and rotas and as Chrono that often had a bad outcome for me (downstate ahoy), while it is chillier as mirage.

Didn't try virtuoso but then again mesmer isn't any of my preferred classes but when I play it I want it easy. Easy like minion master for necro at best.
No more chrono tyvm. (I specced Chrono when it was meta, like 3 years ago)

Honestly it's down to the build templates on Snowcrows and Metabattle that are to blame. Chronomancer has so many options this means more room to have convoluted rotations.

My favourite build is to just use traited Greatsword (no weapon swapping) then run the two phantasm utilities. 

Basic rotations is to spam the 3 phantasm then throw in continuum split followed by signet of either. Hitting 3 skills is pretty easy, no need to even touch the shatters early on. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Mell.4873

[Lucy.3728]

3 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Mirage has more clone micromanagement than Chrono does. Mirage actually cares about the clones’ auto attacks for their Ambush skill, so Mirage has to balance when to and when not to shatter thus being mindful of when they may waste a clone generation.

What for do you shatter your clones as mirage?
My closes are meat to use the ambush skill, so they remain. They aren't meant to be shattered. I could shatter them because of the rather fast generation. But then again often mobs take care of them anyway. And if the mobs are on them I'm happy they aren't on me.

I don't care about wasting clone generation. Playing casual is no efficiency competition. I care about easy and not dying,

[Panda.1967]

19 hours ago, Lucy.3728 said:

What for do you shatter your clones as mirage?
My closes are meat to use the ambush skill, so they remain. They aren't meant to be shattered. I could shatter them because of the rather fast generation. But then again often mobs take care of them anyway. And if the mobs are on them I'm happy they aren't on me.

I don't care about wasting clone generation. Playing casual is no efficiency competition. I care about easy and not dying,

Thats because you personally choose to ignore the micromanagement of clones on Mirage… Mirage is the only mesmer espec that actually has micromanagement of clones. For Core, Chrono, and even technically Virtuoso there is no micromanagement of clones. Clone management is just a regular part of the rotation due to the consistency of shattering. Only on Mirage do you actually have to make decisions on what to do with them.

On mirage you regularly make decisions amongst the following:

Shatter clone for damage/interrupt/distortion

Keep clone for Ambush

Waste clone generation

 

in your Case you seem to always choose to keep clones and waste generation. Most Mirage players still utilize shatters. They are still, annoyingly, part of how the profession works.

 

claiming that mirage has no micromanagement because of a part that you choose to ignore would be like if I had said Chrono has absolutely no micromanagement because if I choose to if ore Continuum Split there is none. Also, even without clone shattering mirage has its own extra micromanagement in Mirage Mirrors.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Panda.1967

[Mell.4873]

3 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

Thats because you personally choose to ignore the micromanagement of clones on Mirage… Mirage is the only mesmer espec that actually has micromanagement of clones. For Core, Chrono, and even technically Virtuoso there is no micromanagement of clones. Clone management is just a regular part of the rotation due to the consistency of shattering. Only on Mirage do you actually have to make decisions on what to do with them.

On mirage you regularly make decisions amongst the following:

Shatter clone for damage/interrupt/distortion

Keep clone for Ambush

Waste clone generation

 

in your Case you seem to always choose to keep clones and waste generation. Most Mirage players still utilize shatters. They are still, annoyingly, part of how the profession works.

 

claiming that mirage has no micromanagement because of a part that you choose to ignore would be like if I had said Chrono has absolutely no micromanagement because if I choose to if ore Continuum Split there is none. Also, even without clone shattering mirage has its own extra micromanagement in Mirage Mirrors.

I will add even Virtuoso has its own micromanagement due the requirement to shatter at exactly 5 blades.

Positioning is another game you play with Virtuoso since there are many configurations to improve your DPS. The best example of this is there is way to hit both legs and the head for most open world Dragon bosses. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

4 hours ago, Mell.4873 said:

I will add even Virtuoso has its own micromanagement due the requirement to shatter at exactly 5 blades.

You're not required to have 5 blades, just like you're not required to have 3 clones. I mean, it would be kinda stupid NOT to, but there's nothing stopping you.

It's one of the reasons why I tell people that the mesmer is NOT hard to play. Engineer and Elementalist are technically harder to play than Mesmer is, however the mesmer is harder to play WELL because we rely on timing much more than any other profession in the game. You cannot just faceroll a mesmer and get anywhere, unlike an elementalist which has a higher skill floor, but once you have your build done you can just drop a brick on your keyboard and nuke an area.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:10 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Nope, you don't need sustain, only beginners need sustain.

You can get it if you're willing to run Inspiration rather than all DPS traitlines, though.