Rifle will be a support weapon

[dead.7638]

I am 100% x 100% so happy!   That I didn’t make a legendary rifle before this news.

[Puck.3697]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Then there'll be no bard theme for mesmer, and weapon choices shouldn't be decided on the basis of catering for something that doesn't exist. While there is the odd skill that has a reference to music, neither core mesmer nor any of the current elite specialisations have the utility skills or mechanics to support a bard playstyle. Chronomancer is probably closest but is explicitly its own, distinct theme

Well tbh, these weapons their adding. They seem to being adding unique mechanics too. Which is wild imho. 

And tbh I'm aware, but also, how many elites can u throw on a class before the core concepts completely lost, espically now with weapons master now. 

I'd like to of seen bard, I just question at this point if it'd be better seeing bard as a seperate class More then seeing it heaped into cluster 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Puck.3697

[Puck.3697]

7 hours ago, dead.7638 said:

I am 100% x 100% so happy!   That I didn’t make a legendary rifle before this news

Eh let's wait and see before declaration. 

Spectres scepter is a good example that anet can make a weapon that fills both a DPS and healing role. 

Also while we know its a support weapon. We don't know exactly how it's going to mesh, just because it's aimed to introduce support options, doesnt mean the weapon won't be able to be used in a dps role. 

[draxynnic.3719]

8 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

Well tbh, these weapons their adding. They seem to being adding unique mechanics too. Which is wild imho. 

And tbh I'm aware, but also, how many elites can u throw on a class before the core concepts completely lost, espically now with weapons master now. 

I'd like to of seen bard, I just question at this point if it'd be better seeing bard as a seperate class More then seeing it heaped into cluster 

More than we have now, I think. Mesmer's actually had a fairly decent set, but there are some professions that I think need at least one more because all of the elite specialisations are ones that have pulled it away from the core concept, while an elite specialisation that does encourage returning to the core concept would strengthen it.

I really don't see more elites being something that could cause the core concept to be lost, since they're all building on that core concept - a much bigger problem is having all the elite specialisations pushing in the same direction as happened to warrior and elementalist.

Where bard might fit... I could see it on mesmer, I can kinda see it on thief, firebrand can already be viewed as a weird kind of oratory bard, and theoretically I could see it being its own thing (although I'm sceptical on the likelihood of a new profession being introduced at this stage of the game).

[Puck.3697]

10 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

More than we have now, I think. Mesmer's actually had a fairly decent set, but there are some professions that I think need at least one more because all of the elite specialisations are ones that have pulled it away from the core concept, while an elite specialisation that does encourage returning to the core concept would strengthen it.

I really don't see more elites being something that could cause the core concept to be lost, since they're all building on that core concept - a much bigger problem is having all the elite specialisations pushing in the same direction as happened to warrior and elementalist.

Where bard might fit... I could see it on mesmer, I can kinda see it on thief, firebrand can already be viewed as a weird kind of oratory bard, and theoretically I could see it being its own thing (although I'm sceptical on the likelihood of a new profession being introduced at this stage of the game).

It's possible, but i suspose it'd create a issue where 1 armour type will have four, and I'm pretty sure they said when launching rev they wanted it to be equal across all. 

And catching it up. 

Bard would need core traitlines core utility and weapons, then 3 elites thought up and put ontop of it, then weapon mastery applied. 

So it'd be a undertaking to create a new class, it'd be hype and nice to see, but your likely right, its extremely unlikely, you'd need to see a real outcry to get this under consideration 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Puck.3697

[Mevelios.4809]

As much as I care about how the rifle would perform as a support weapon, I'm completely unable to tell which way should it go about damages. It's likely to include only healing skills IMO since it's what we're completely missing in our arsenal for an obvious healer profile. A weapon centered around buffing is also largely missing; doing so with the staff is largely tied to a single e-spec for its ambush, still the bouncing prevent it from being that reliable because it needs an enemy target to be used on first, then the priority bouncing makes it jump to the nearest ally before heading back to the enemy (hence my suggestion elsewhere of revising a trait to make bounces target primarily allies, surely adding also extra jumps so it benefits more than only two allies). Still, it's there for the sake of buffing.

But I digress; back to the subject of damages, if it were condi-based, it'd come in competition with our many options already. A power-based tool would be more handy for balance IMO, especially since there'll be clone considerations: will they be able to benefit from our healing power? If they do, a clone healing & adding to condi damages would likely be excessive; if they don't, then it could be anything. However a healing, power-based damaging weapon from range...? We've got the GS, we've got dagger+offhand, it'd start to become redundant when I'd rather have more one-handed options (three power offhand options, but only one melee and one ranged main hand).

I'm just waiting for the beta to make myself a firmer opinion about it, especially towards clones & auto-attack.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Seems they are doing weapon reveal blog posts per profession with dual-mace Ranger being revealed first, and the supportive abilities are insane. I'm even more excited what's waiting for Rifle Mesmer now.

[Gesbo.6420]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:58 PM, Puck.3697 said:

Well thats obvious

I just feel bows abit more multifunctional then rifle. It maybe good, I aint bashing it. Just in my mind I feel bow can be kinda be bled into the support fantasy alot easier. 

Don't get me wrong, tbh I prolly wont like either concept, as I'm pretty sure its gonna be quite litterally a healing weapon. We just gonna be the next Druid / tempest. 

So my say has very little meaning here, I think chrono thematically fits a healer under the concept of reversing time. Then a rifle or other speccs of mesmer look to achieve. 

But I'm happy for all who wanted to be a healer with mesmer. 

Shame they deleted alac from chrono

Rifle / Staff Alac/might healing chrono woulda been a cool concept lol

Mesmer weapons have always been a bit outside of the box. I'm buzzing to see what we will have in place!

[Panda.1967]

On 11/7/2023 at 3:58 PM, Puck.3697 said:

Shame they deleted alac from chrono

Rifle / Staff Alac/might healing chrono woulda been a cool concept lol

They didn’t delete Alac from Chrono… it wad just moved from Wells to Shatters… You can still very easily maintain 100% uptime on Alac as Chrono, I do it every day. When rifle hits, if you wanna play a Rifle/Staff Alac/Might Heal Chrono, go right ahead and do so, it’s perfectly doable… and who knows it might just end up being the Meta Heal Mesmer…

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Panda.1967 said:

They didn’t delete Alac from Chrono… it wad just moved from Wells to Shatters… You can still very easily maintain 100% uptime on Alac as Chrono, I do it every day. When rifle hits, if you wanna play a Rifle/Staff Alac/Might Heal Chrono, go right ahead and do so, it’s perfectly doable… and who knows it might just end up being the Meta Heal Mesmer

I play mainly dps I doubt I'ma ever use the rifle 😂😂 although aa they seem to be adding unique mechanics to the weapons. It seems like its gonna be a power creep for anyone getting dps orintated ones lol 

[Micah.3789]

Seems a lot of y'all are convinced rifle's going to lean heavy into healing, but I think and hope not. A healing weapon would basically only be useful on chrono, since heal mirage is effectively locked into using 2x staff and virtuoso lacks boons. I think the upcoming support focused mesmer changes shine a bit of light on the direction the devs seem to be going in. The trait line overhauls will likely bring both mirage and chrono pve heal builds out of obscurity, but many of the benefits were tied to staff which is a dramatically better weapon for mirage than chrono. They also increase mesmer raw healing significantly; likely to the point that a healing weapon would be excessive. Even with these changes, chrono (not mirage) will lack access to might, fury, and chaos aura. I suspect the rifle will be used to address this disparity, while bringing decent damage for potential boon dps. I could see some barrier and/or modest healing, but I doubt it's going to be the 'shoot your friends to life' weapon that many are predicting. It may also have higher than typical clone production to benefit support builds that rely on clones/shatters for effects.

As a heal mirage enjoyer, I'd be concerned if rifle was a heavy healing weapon. As already mentioned, a mirage providing alacrity can't effectively use a different weapon without additional boon extension (maybe rifle will have?). So if rifle healing is significant, there will be a large disparity between chrono and mirage healing output. Not necessarily an issue if mirage has enough healing, but what if core healing is nerfed to balance chrono healing with rifle? On a personal note, guns completely break my support/heal fantasy, so I really hope that support mesmers aren't balanced with the assumption that they're using one.

[Mevelios.4809]

38 minutes ago, Micah.3789 said:

A healing weapon would basically only be useful on chrono, since heal mirage is effectively locked into using 2x staff and virtuoso lacks boons. [...] The trait line overhauls will likely bring both mirage and chrono pve heal builds out of obscurity, but many of the benefits were tied to staff which is a dramatically better weapon for mirage than chrono. They also increase mesmer raw healing significantly; likely to the point that a healing weapon would be excessive. Even with these changes, chrono (not mirage) will lack access to might, fury, and chaos aura. I suspect the rifle will be used to address this disparity, while bringing decent damage for potential boon dps.

Chrono already has All's well that ends well though, and sure won't lack access to might/fury through chaos' Bountiful disillusionment, Well of action & the continuum split. Access to chaos aura remains the same issue for all classes (tied primarily to the staff, then to leap finishers with the future Chaotic transference meaning more staff, otherwise sword/axe which have no support purposes).

Virtuoso will indeed lack boons in comparison to chrono but will be in line with mirage as long as the latter doesn't use a staff (clearly, it's all about the staff and mirage mantle on this e-spec; let's see what they'll make on the rifle's ambush & mantle). Virtuoso instead has a massive blade output to support healing on illusion/blade summoning +full shatters (the latter could've been reinforced by Bladeturn refrain, not the case for now but maybe worth considering in the future for PvE - though if it happens, competitive split for PvP hopefully to avoid an easy zone aegis). It guarantees however room for utilities such as mantras, glamour skills, Signet of inspiration and possibly Blade renewal on emergencies (associated to Inspiring distortion) against chrono wells and mirage mirror skills. I'd hope however Bountiful disillusionment's durations would scale with the number of shattered clones/blades, that way virtuoso would be able to compensate its lack of buffs with higher durations from its five blades against three clones!

I think you're also overestimating the numbers; a good heal should be at least 5K strong without buffs. Our illusion summoning currently is nearly ten times lower than that while we still lack a healing weapon; a full shatter cycle the way it is intended soon would ramp up to 4K with all related skills going under a CD (and while maintaining current numbers). It's clearly insufficient without extra sources of healing in competitive content, even moreso as our own healing skills do not heal allies directly (it'll take the new Metaphysical rejuvenation to apply regen, chaos spec will be mandatory). And since it isn't enough, shatters will also be the source of condition cleansing & protection (from the new Illusionary defense which I won't repeat my gripes about). A lot competes on these two core mechanics when you'd wish you had illusion spec's Shatter storm & Master of misdirection to have more leeway with shatters!

Maybe the modifiers/base numbers will change, but with the clear lack of a proper heal weapon I really can't imagine them making it a buffing tool. Chrono already has a bunch of built-in buffs, mirage finds them in the staff+mantle.

2 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

I could see some barrier and/or modest healing, but I doubt it's going to be the 'shoot your friends to life' weapon that many are predicting.

Barriers would be definitely worthwhile to keep building them when healing isn't necessary, a healing currently underperforming to compete with other healer specs. Having a rifle could also have another purpose though... "Shoot your friends", end of the story; no more healing needed! 😆

[ShadowKatt.6740]

So they're drip feeding the teasers. They gave page on the mace ranger, and today a page on the axe thief. Soon we'll get the page for our rifle and MY ANXIETY CANNOT BE HIGHER.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

Seems a lot of y'all are convinced rifle's going to lean heavy into healing, but I think and hope not. A healing weapon would basically only be useful on chrono, since heal mirage is effectively locked into using 2x staff and virtuoso lacks boons. I think the upcoming support focused mesmer changes shine a bit of light on the direction the devs seem to be going in. The trait line overhauls will likely bring both mirage and chrono pve heal builds out of obscurity, but many of the benefits were tied to staff which is a dramatically better weapon for mirage than chrono. They also increase mesmer raw healing significantly; likely to the point that a healing weapon would be excessive. Even with these changes, chrono (not mirage) will lack access to might, fury, and chaos aura. I suspect the rifle will be used to address this disparity, while bringing decent damage for potential boon dps. I could see some barrier and/or modest healing, but I doubt it's going to be the 'shoot your friends to life' weapon that many are predicting. It may also have higher than typical clone production to benefit support builds that rely on clones/shatters for effects.

As a heal mirage enjoyer, I'd be concerned if rifle was a heavy healing weapon. As already mentioned, a mirage providing alacrity can't effectively use a different weapon without additional boon extension (maybe rifle will have?). So if rifle healing is significant, there will be a large disparity between chrono and mirage healing output. Not necessarily an issue if mirage has enough healing, but what if core healing is nerfed to balance chrono healing with rifle? On a personal note, guns completely break my support/heal fantasy, so I really hope that support mesmers aren't balanced with the assumption that they're using one.

A lot of your concern here appears based on the assumption that rifle won't be able to contribute to alacrity. If ArenaNet wants heal mirage to be a thing, they can put alacrity on rifle's ambush skill. Might not even require Mirage Mantle since if rifle isn't a high-DPS weapon, they'll be less afraid of it turning into the next staxe build.

[Gesbo.6420]

5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

A lot of your concern here appears based on the assumption that rifle won't be able to contribute to alacrity. If ArenaNet wants heal mirage to be a thing, they can put alacrity on rifle's ambush skill. Might not even require Mirage Mantle since if rifle isn't a high-DPS weapon, they'll be less afraid of it turning into the next staxe build.

That won't happen. They won't risk weapons giving alacrity or quickness on their own. But I'm excited to see what will be the special mechanic of the rifle. So far the weapons themselves have a interesting mechanic tied to it - Axes lingering and then returning them to you and doubling their effects. 

I haven't been so excited for an update in a long while! 

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 11/8/2023 at 11:25 AM, Roadkizzle.2157 said:

The rifle WILL have damaging abilities even though it probably won't have the DPS of the dagger or the greatsword.

I just hope the approach to its skills is more shotgun and less rifle. I don't think we really need any more single-target stuff, we need more AoE.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Gesbo.6420 said:

That won't happen. They won't risk weapons giving alacrity or quickness on their own. But I'm excited to see what will be the special mechanic of the rifle. So far the weapons themselves have a interesting mechanic tied to it - Axes lingering and then returning them to you and doubling their effects. 

I haven't been so excited for an update in a long while! 

If it's on the ambush skill, it will only be available to mirage, so it won't create an alacquickness build. And if rifle is set up as a low-DPS support weapon, then simply having it will be a DPS loss, so it won't create the staxe situation where two staxes could provide alacrity between them while also doing top-tier DPS.

So I could see it be something they'd throw in just so that they don't have two identical Mirage Mantle effects.

[Mevelios.4809]

1 hour ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

I just hope the approach to its skills is more shotgun and less rifle. I don't think we really need any more single-target stuff, we need more AoE.

I agree, but what I'm afraid is that we'd get some copy of engi kits this way:

• an auto-attack like Med blaster (without pulses),
• a clone-generating skill offering regen or cleansing a condition or two the way Fumigate works,
• a Jump shot (as an ammo skill with two charges) to move around and relying on a blast finisher rather than leap,
• a phantasm of some nature healing & buffing around,
• finally a field skill like Super elixir with a water field rather than light.

With our heals and buffs taking effect in a small radius around our characters, I can hardly see it work otherwise: it wouldn't be coherent with the coming design of our skills. I was joking elsewhere about a vacuum cleaner and the Goatbusters theme (oh wait...) but reverse the air flow and it's like your shotgun idea or the Med blaster I linked here! We'll see during the beta. Two weeks and some to wait! 😊

[Teknomancer.4895]

5 minutes ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

With our heals and buffs taking effect in a small radius around our characters, I can hardly see it work otherwise: it wouldn't be coherent with the coming design of our skills.

And since when has "coherent" been much of a factor when they decide to start tinkering with Mesmer stuff? 😆

[ShadowKatt.6740]

5 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

I just hope the approach to its skills is more shotgun and less rifle. I don't think we really need any more single-target stuff, we need more AoE.

And I want the exact opposite. Give me a rifle with 1500 range or something that shoots through portals to reach its target.

I'm not getting anything I want anyway, so just let me dream.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

4 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

I agree, but what I'm afraid is that we'd get some copy of engi kits this way:

• an auto-attack like Med blaster (without pulses),
• a clone-generating skill offering regen or cleansing a condition or two the way Fumigate works,
• a Jump shot (as an ammo skill with two charges) to move around and relying on a blast finisher rather than leap,
• a phantasm of some nature healing & buffing around,
• finally a field skill like Super elixir with a water field rather than light.

With our heals and buffs taking effect in a small radius around our characters, I can hardly see it work otherwise: it wouldn't be coherent with the coming design of our skills. I was joking elsewhere about a vacuum cleaner and the Goatbusters theme (oh wait...) but reverse the air flow and it's like your shotgun idea or the Med blaster I linked here! We'll see during the beta. Two weeks and some to wait! 😊

Less, kinda. They already revealed the Rangers Maces, the Thief's Axes, and today the Warriors Staff. We'll get more info on our rifle in less than a week I think. Then we wait for the beta to actually try it.

[Micah.3789]

On 11/9/2023 at 6:58 PM, Mevelios.4809 said:

Chrono already has All's well that ends well though, and sure won't lack access to might/fury through chaos' Bountiful disillusionment, Well of action & the continuum split. Access to chaos aura remains the same issue for all classes (tied primarily to the staff, then to leap finishers with the future Chaotic transference meaning more staff, otherwise sword/axe which have no support purposes).

Assuming Bountiful Disillusionment will have the same values after the patch, Chrono will only be able to maintain 13 stacks of might without shield or Mantra of Pain spam. With shield, that increases to 21 stacks which is much more serviceable, but then would force a choice between staff and rifle. I was mistaken about the lack of fury, but I'll note that 100% uptime will require using Time Sink nearly on CD which wastes valuable CC and healing/cleansing. Simply put: staff is a poor option on anything but Mirage, but it's the only way available to utilize the upcoming trait changes . Rather than force the other Especs to take staff, I suspect rifle will offer the chaos aura needed, but with support options those specs are lacking instead. So rather than Staff/Rifle, I think the intention will be X+Shield/Rifle for Chrono. As for the Chaos Aura disparity , Mirage can Jaunt in ethereal fields for additional applications.

On 11/9/2023 at 6:58 PM, Mevelios.4809 said:

I think you're also overestimating the numbers; a good heal should be at least 5K strong without buffs. Our illusion summoning currently is nearly ten times lower than that while we still lack a healing weapon; a full shatter cycle the way it is intended soon would ramp up to 4K with all related skills going under a CD (and while maintaining current numbers). It's clearly insufficient without extra sources of healing in competitive content, even moreso as our own healing skills do not heal allies directly (it'll take the new Metaphysical rejuvenation to apply regen, chaos spec will be mandatory). And since it isn't enough, shatters will also be the source of condition cleansing & protection (from the new Illusionary defense which I won't repeat my gripes about). A lot competes on these two core mechanics when you'd wish you had illusion spec's Shatter storm & Master of misdirection to have more leeway with shatters!

I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here. It seems like you made up an arbitrary amount that heal skills should do and then compared it to a modest sustain heal. What does that prove? Most healers accumulate multiple effects to heal. It's actually pretty uncommon to have single large heals like you describe. As a build crafter, I've crunched healing numbers for most classes in the game, and tested their output myself while analyzing my own arcdps logs. I can assure you, even in it's current form, Mesmer does competitive healing (though kinda uncomfortably with the reliance on mantras). In fact, the actual hps output is even higher than some meta healers. While it's true we lack a healing weapon, the Inspiration trait line is the most loaded trait line in the game for raw healing output and the upcoming changes seem to be improving upon that even further. 

In full heal gear, Illusionary Inspiration heals for just over 1k with outgoing healing buffs. This adds a significant amount of supplemental healing, many sources of which don't even have cast times. I'll give an example of a burst heal rotation I use on Mirage: cast Phantasmal Warlock for an instant 2x illusions, while simultaneously using Phase Retreat, Jaunt, and Mirage Cloak (with Deceptive Evasion) for an additional 3x clones. That's 5k healing in an instant; plus I can be casting Mantra of Recovery for an additional 8k+ 1.5sec later, while the phantasms turn into clones for the final 2k. 15k healing total in just a couple seconds, and you can repeat it approximately every 10 seconds other than Jaunt. If you still need more healing, you can use Mantra of Pain in-between for an extra ~5k per cast. With the upcoming patch we'll be gaining regen, protection, and an outgoing healing bonus to further augment this rotation. Not to mention Restorative Illusions becoming an ally heal, which adds another 2.4-3.2k healing per shatter depending on the number of clones (assuming the values stay the same). I could go on, but I think my point is clear that there is an incredibly substantial amount of healing available to mesmers without a healing weapon. 

On 11/9/2023 at 9:44 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

A lot of your concern here appears based on the assumption that rifle won't be able to contribute to alacrity. If ArenaNet wants heal mirage to be a thing, they can put alacrity on rifle's ambush skill. Might not even require Mirage Mantle since if rifle isn't a high-DPS weapon, they'll be less afraid of it turning into the next staxe build.

I think you've misunderstood me. My main point was that many commenters are misrepresenting mesmer as a spec that lacks raw healing and therefore needs a healing weapon. Many of the current issues are being addressed in the upcoming trait changes, but I identified in my original comment what I think the remaining weaknesses are that I hope rifle will address. While the spec doesn't need a healing weapon, I can understand why some would like the option; especially to avoid reliance on Restorative Mantras. I'm excited about the spec as is, and have no interest in using rifle. So I just hope that whatever they do with rifle, it doesn't lead to nerfing other parts of the mesmer's healing output.

[Mevelios.4809]

11 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

Assuming Bountiful Disillusionment will have the same values after the patch, Chrono will only be able to maintain 13 stacks of might without shield or Mantra of Pain spam. With shield, that increases to 21 stacks which is much more serviceable, but then would force a choice between staff and rifle. I was mistaken about the lack of fury, but I'll note that 100% uptime will require using Time Sink nearly on CD which wastes valuable CC and healing/cleansing. [...] Rather than force the other Especs to take staff, I suspect rifle will offer the chaos aura needed, but with support options those specs are lacking instead. So rather than Staff/Rifle, I think the intention will be X+Shield/Rifle for Chrono. As for the Chaos Aura disparity , Mirage can Jaunt in ethereal fields for additional applications.

I disagree (surprised? 😆). Let's remain in this precise example of chrono only; Split second (shatter 1) under Bountiful disillusionment and Improved alacrity let you make use of it twice in the ordinary 12s CD cycle, regardless of the number of clones shattered. That's 10 starting stacks, only delayed in the opening phase of the fight for 6s so the second cast can be performed.

Next in line is indeed the Well of action for 18 stacks, which can be completed with the shield's Tides of time for a reliable max might stacks (virtually 26). The mainhand weapon can be the sword (for Swap's leap finisher in an ethereal field to get chaos armor, and a power-based weapon to match chrono's power profile) or the scepter for its illusion summoning ability, which is clearly welcome on chrono (damages aren't really worth considering but you can get a clone on each full auto-attack chain, and two on a block - or one if you interrupt the block yourself).

However, remember how improved alacrity turns the tables around; to ensure consistency, it forces you to couple it with Stretched time. Well of action then goes on a 10s CD instead of its usual 20, so with some concentration you can get merely out of split second & well of action all 25 might stacks & fury. You can already disregard the shield, might/fury buffing is tied to one shatter and one utility; remember as well the shield provides twice in an area, on successful blocks, protection & two phantasms to feed your improved alacrity.

Note also that spamming blindly Split second (shatter 1) is very likely to ruin your clones for the main chrono feature: Continuum split. Well, actually it's more of a matter of anticipation: you can hold back with shatter 1 so you just cast it right after continuum split, because the buffing is merely tied to the shatter use, not the amount of clones shattered. That's one specific that players may need a bit of time to adjust to.

11 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

Simply put: staff is a poor option on anything but Mirage, but it's the only way available to utilize the upcoming trait changes . [...]

As for the Chaos Aura disparity , Mirage can Jaunt in ethereal fields for additional applications.

On this we agree; that's what I'm pointing out as a risk to effectively restrict gameplay in another post (linking to avoid repeating it).

11 hours ago, Micah.3789 said:

I'm not really sure what you're trying to argue here. It seems like you made up an arbitrary amount that heal skills should do and then compared it to a modest sustain heal. What does that prove? Most healers accumulate multiple effects to heal. It's actually pretty uncommon to have single large heals like you describe. As a build crafter, I've crunched healing numbers for most classes in the game, and tested their output myself while analyzing my own arcdps logs. I can assure you, even in it's current form, Mesmer does competitive healing (though kinda uncomfortably with the reliance on mantras). In fact, the actual hps output is even higher than some meta healers. While it's true we lack a healing weapon, the Inspiration trait line is the most loaded trait line in the game for raw healing output and the upcoming changes seem to be improving upon that even further. 

In full heal gear, Illusionary Inspiration heals for just over 1k with outgoing healing buffs. This adds a significant amount of supplemental healing, many sources of which don't even have cast times. I'll give an example of a burst heal rotation I use on Mirage: cast Phantasmal Warlock for an instant 2x illusions, while simultaneously using Phase Retreat, Jaunt, and Mirage Cloak (with Deceptive Evasion) for an additional 3x clones. That's 5k healing in an instant; plus I can be casting Mantra of Recovery for an additional 8k+ 1.5sec later, while the phantasms turn into clones for the final 2k. 15k healing total in just a couple seconds, and you can repeat it approximately every 10 seconds other than Jaunt. If you still need more healing, you can use Mantra of Pain in-between for an extra ~5k per cast. With the upcoming patch we'll be gaining regen, protection, and an outgoing healing bonus to further augment this rotation. Not to mention Restorative Illusions becoming an ally heal, which adds another 2.4-3.2k healing per shatter depending on the number of clones (assuming the values stay the same). I could go on, but I think my point is clear that there is an incredibly substantial amount of healing available to mesmers without a healing weapon.

"Seems like you made up an arbitrary amount". I'll be honest, that one rubbed me wrong (you also could've asked how did I find that number, a question I'll be asking below on one of your own numbers) but I don't care for conflict, so let's stay on the real topic at hand and explain things in a civil way:

• First of all, it seems you misread my intent though I probably wasn't clear enough - takes time to put down the reasoning, time I'd rather spend doing something else. I wrote "full shatter cycle the way it is intended soon": this implies the coming changes while using current numbers, meaning the resort to three clones/phantasms then their shattering (something all mesmers can relate to). It is not about simply summoning as many clones as possible for exclusively triggering Illusionary inspiration.

 

• Second, the values: I'm using them based on a full weapon+armor set only, I set aside runes/sigils/relics/buffs as most work on a % base which can quickly be calculated by head by anyone (I mean, most are +5% or +10% on the values after calculation from weapon/armor stats). It's misleading for others since I was focused on my reasoning, that I'll admit; still, the 5K healing amount I "seem to make up" merely comes out of experience, a necessary step to give theory meaning (just sitting before a build editor isn't enough, I put it into practice in competitive content).

I'm primarily a melee player, so I know well the ordinary boss slaps at 6 or 8K when wearing light armor, spikes at 12K, and AoEs pulsing at 2 or 3K/sec. I've played for a good while healer rev, so I know which values I'm getting out of it; I've played healer engi during some time as well, which I ended giving up because I never met a satisfying efficiency on my builds and tracking CDs across all kits was growing into an annoyance.

Anyway, as such the end values I'm displaying refer to the individual "big heal" I mentioned: a full shatter cycle detailed in the previous point thus implies a 4K and some amount in the base I use to start reasoning (that is, armor+weapons only) where ordinary "big heal" single skills or short-timed combinations (1.5s window) are on a 5K amount. That falls 20% short and might prove a limitation to chrono/core mesmer, which do not have the output of mirage/virtuoso in clones/blades to feed their healing with illusionary inspiration. I went down the reasoning farther to mitigate the conclusion in another topic, but I don't remember when did I write it so I'll avoid looking for and linking it (unless you care to read it and debate).

 

• Third, the point of the two previous ones is to identify, in the nature of our coming sustained type of healing, the lack of a "oh sh*t" rescue (I'll avoid linking all wiki entries for convenience, there's a lot) despite being so close to having such a move in the shattering cycle, the very shatters being our future core buffing tools.

Single skills with large amounts of instant healing are not so rare; druids have such big heals in staff 3, celestial avatar 3, both forms of the healing glyph, the glyph of alignment in its celestial form. Revenants have the centaur's natural harmony, centaur's energy expulsion or renegade's heal skill. Engineers much less since their design is based on sustain and combos (blast finishers on water fields). Several of the scourge's barriers have strong amounts instead of direct healing. Specter's on its own for its half-healing, half-barrier skills. Guardian I can't tell - I don't like the profession so I never cared. Elementalists have water staff 3, ice elemental, tempest's rebound & wash the pain away, and probably other options but I didn't dabble much in this class (something I intended to look at later... but it was already the case at weaver's release 😆).

 

• Fourth, question time: how are you getting a 1K heal on illusionary inspiration? My numbers stagnate around 850. Going farther would be replacing concentration/boon duration sources with healing power, which isn't what players are looking for when making a group - they want a support character with constant boon uptime and either some healing either some damages, not a pure healer who's occasionally buffing on the side!

 

• Fifth and final point, your mirage rotation about summoning as many illusions as you can, again, is not what's asked for in practice. Besides, targetting jaunt takes a short amount of time; casting staff warlocks takes 0.75s; phase retreat takes you 1200 units away from whoever you were trying to heal and will ask (again) for time to walk back in place (jaunt won't solve it, the healing happens on the jumping point where the clone appears - not the landing point you're aiming for with the skill).

All of this is conditioned by your latency; these are not instant heals, because in the 5s you spend dishing out all illusion-summoning skills for 15K, that's enough of a window to deliver three blows - each at 8K on light armors, for a total of 24K damages against your 15K healing. You won't make it in any competitive content, much less if you remove boons! Your demonstration relies on a dueling/inspiration/mirage build, which would disregard the future boons from chaos - so it isn't what groups are looking for today, and it won't be what works best tomorrow! Be assured I know well how to summon illusions out of mirage - it is my favorite spec since PoF, after all. Enough to keep me playing a power interrupt build on zerk gear when so many traits incite you to play with viper gear!

If you really want to dish out as much healing as possible, switch to virtuoso; the blade summoning frequency is even higher than mirage's. You can also switch to minstrel gear for toughness to attract boss' attention on you, so you can reliably use the blocks on scepter (+its auto-attack) & shield!

As a conclusion to disambiguate, note that I'm not belittling your gameplay. I'm only saying it isn't what the majority of groups are looking for; in competitive PvE it won't be interesting, in PvP it's only good at feeding the unhealthy blurred inscriptions build, in WvW I can't tell since I don't play it. I spend time theorycrafting too, I am a main mesmer too; however in my experience, in practice the current healer build doesn't hold up to any competitive content, but if you have counter-examples - please tell me what I've missed for so long!

Edited November 11, 2023 by Mevelios.4809

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

Fingers crossed the ambush skill is super supporty on mirage. Would be a shame if rifle support was pigeon-holed to chronomancer. Well spam is so BORING. 

[Micah.3789]

12 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

I disagree (surprised? 😆)

I've read your comments considerately and have been amenable to your perspective; and while I did learn a few things, your ignorance and hubris have proven to be an obstacle to mutual understanding. I could try to clear up ALL the misunderstandings, but at this point that would mostly be for the benefit of other readers. I'd rather just take a moment to correct some misinformation. 

13 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Split second (shatter 1) under Bountiful disillusionment and Improved alacrity let you make use of it twice in the ordinary 12s CD cycle, regardless of the number of clones shattered. That's 10 starting stacks, only delayed in the opening phase of the fight for 6s so the second cast can be performed [...]

This isn't how alacrity works. The value given is an increase in the rate at which skills recharge, as opposed to a reduction in CD time. With normal alacrity, a 25% increase in recharge rate translates to a 20% reduction in CD time. Similarly, the improved alacrity rate of 50% translates to a 33.3% reduction in CD time. This results in an 8s CD on Split Second for 16s of 5x might with 100% boon duration. This combo can still technically, barely maintain 10 stacks of might, so you are right. I concede on that, but it only provides even more proof of my original point: chrono struggles to provide might without shield. Reducing your own alacrity uptime, taking 100% boon duration, using Split Second on CD, and sacrificing Illusionary Reversion (when support will depend on clones and shatters) all to narrowly provide 26 stacks of might is not reasonable or sustainable. Meanwhile, Mirage is dumping out 40+ stacks with just Chaos Vortex and 50% boon duration. So I'll repeat, I think and hope rifle will remedy this disparity and discomfort. Why is that even controversial?

13 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

• still, the 5K healing amount I "seem to make up" merely comes out of experience, a necessary step to give theory meaning (just sitting before a build editor isn't enough, I put it into practice in competitive content).

I'm primarily a melee player, so I know well the ordinary boss slaps at 6 or 8K when wearing light armor, spikes at 12K, and AoEs pulsing at 2 or 3K/sec. [...] because in the 5s you spend dishing out all illusion-summoning skills for 15K, that's enough of a window to deliver three blows - each at 8K on light armors, for a total of 24K damages against your 15K healing.

You know, if you're in disbelief that my build works in competitive content, you could just ask me. First of all, the rotation I detailed before heals 13k in the first ~2s. Without Deceptive Evasion, it drops to 12k. I didn't add Restorative Illusions, as that doesn't provide group healing yet. If I did, this rotation could manage a 3 clone shatter (assuming pre-existing) and a 2 clone shatter in those first few seconds: as fast as you can press those instant casts. They add 3.2k and 3k healing respectively. Hence my excitement about upcoming changes. 

You claim to be experienced in competitive content, and then describe 24k damage per 5s as an ordinary scenario? Against a squad of 5, that amounts to 24k hps. Even terrible pugs on BS don't take more than 6-8kps and that's a pure hps race.

14 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

Single skills with large amounts of instant healing are not so rare; [...]

Go ahead and apply your test to any of these tried and true meta healers. How much do they heal in 2s with no runes or %outgoing healing? Do they heal 24k every 5s? 

14 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

your mirage rotation about summoning as many illusions as you can, again, is not what's asked for in practice. Besides, targetting jaunt takes a short amount of time; casting staff warlocks takes 0.75s; phase retreat takes you 1200 units away from whoever you were trying to heal and will ask (again) for time to walk back in place (jaunt won't solve it, the healing happens on the jumping point where the clone appears - not the landing point you're aiming for with the skill).

I'm taking advantage of instant cast skills to heal and provide boons while casting a mantra for even more healing; with the added benefit of more clones for more shatters for even more healing and boons. What's the downside? Taking time to aim jaunt is a skill issue and phase retreat distance is only 360 units; something you would know if you were as experienced as you claim. Unless your allies were far ahead of you when you cast Phase Retreat, they'll be healed by it and the follow up Jaunt which will put you right back in position in the blink of an eye.

14 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

how are you getting a 1K heal on illusionary inspiration? My numbers stagnate around 850. Going farther would be replacing concentration/boon duration sources with healing power, which isn't what players are looking for when making a group - they want a support character with constant boon uptime and either some healing either some damages, not a pure healer who's occasionally buffing on the side!

Full minstrel, because heal mirage makes a fabulous tank and easily provides its boons with a little over 50% boon duration. You do a lot of this speaking for players and what they want: supposedly they need 24k healing every 5s, but I'm overinvested in healing? Lol.. pick a lane.

14 hours ago, Mevelios.4809 said:

As a conclusion to disambiguate, note that I'm not belittling your gameplay. I'm only saying it isn't what the majority of groups are looking for; in competitive PvE it won't be interesting, in PvP it's only good at feeding the unhealthy blurred inscriptions build, in WvW I can't tell since I don't play it. I spend time theorycrafting too, I am a main mesmer too; however in my experience, in practice the current healer build doesn't hold up to any competitive content, but if you have counter-examples - please tell me what I've missed for so long!

Right... Not belittling my gameplay; just ignorantly challenging and discouraging it when it's not even a relevant topic of discussion? Anyway.. back to mesmer rifle talk I hope.