Create Otherworldly Bonds when Revenants Brandish Scepters

[draxynnic.3719]

3 hours ago, Freedoms.2635 said:

Yea but I can remain hopeful, the barrier range has to be half decent. I would really hate it to have the tiny circle around them 

Most professions have to be within 240-360 to apply boons - herald is a bit spoiled with its 600 application range.

[Angesombre.4630]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Most professions have to be within 240-360 to apply boons - herald is a bit spoiled with its 600 application range.

The revenant is not a privileged player with a zone radius of 600. All Cree skills have a radius of 600: guardian, warrior, elementalist, ranger (with a trait, Stance). For the others, they can generally put buffs at a distance from them, which the revenant can't do, except with renegat for Protection, also with a trait.

[otto.5684]

It looks interesting. It depends on how much barrier and damage it can provide. Might and vunrebility are redudant.

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

The revenant is not a privileged player with a zone radius of 600. All Cree skills have a radius of 600: guardian, warrior, elementalist, ranger (with a trait, Stance). For the others, they can generally put buffs at a distance from them, which the revenant can't do, except with renegat for Protection, also with a trait.

Cree skills? Do you mean shouts?

The important boons are generally more confined. Firebrand applying quickness mostly needs the target to be within 450 if in front, 180 otherwise. Tempest alacrity has 360. Berserkers have a respectable 480, which is still not 600. I guess bladesworn does grant 600 - but alacsworn is generally considered to be not good so I didn't pay much attention to it. Soulbeast isn't granting either.

Ranged buffing is also generally within a tight radius.

Herald being able to toss out sufficient quantities of nearly every boon, including Quickness, to basically anyone vaguely nearby up to the target limit is absolutely a privileged position. It's a large part of the reason why herald is viewed as the strongest quickness provider as things already are.

[Angesombre.4630]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Cree skills? Do you mean shouts?

The important boons are generally more confined. Firebrand applying quickness mostly needs the target to be within 450 if in front, 180 otherwise. Tempest alacrity has 360. Berserkers have a respectable 480, which is still not 600. I guess bladesworn does grant 600 - but alacsworn is generally considered to be not good so I didn't pay much attention to it. Soulbeast isn't granting either.

Ranged buffing is also generally within a tight radius.

Herald being able to toss out sufficient quantities of nearly every boon, including Quickness, to basically anyone vaguely nearby up to the target limit is absolutely a privileged position. It's a large part of the reason why herald is viewed as the strongest quickness provider as things already are.

You're right, another nerf needs to be made to this class, so there won't be anything left of the revenant and we should only let him have an active legend, which would solve the problem. We should also give him light armor because a heavy armor gives him more defense. Why don't we make a unique class that would also make things easier (for those who don't understand my message, that's not what I want).

Yes, Herald has a 600 zone, but it's not the only class to have them. And quickness is only given in PvE. The revenant doesn't choose these skills he chooses a legend, he has less skills than the other professions, he never had access to the racial skill although it can be an accessory. Necro can throw elixirs and put his sand zones in several places to throw those barriers, ranger can put his spirits at distance, warrior can throw those banners. Gardien has long been a staple in groups. Revenant isn't a group must-have either; it's good, but not indispensable either. Maybe he will be, maybe he won't.

The herald doesn't yet offer stealth or super speed. Currently, the revenant can't give any really useful ranged buffs. And rather than criticizing the revenant and asking that others be improved, I'm in favor of the policy of pulling things up (better) rather than down (nerf).

Edited November 16, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Jobber.6348]

I'm in favour of killing Rev so they have to rework or remove. Living in a state of bad is not living at all.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

You're right, another nerf needs to be made to this class, so there won't be anything left of the revenant and we should only let him have an active legend, which would solve the problem. We should also give him light armor because a heavy armor gives him more defense. Why don't we make a unique class that would also make things easier (for those who don't understand my message, that's not what I want).

Man, you're not even bothering to put a jacket on that strawman...

5 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Yes, Herald has a 600 zone, but it's not the only class to have them. And quickness is only given in PvE. The revenant doesn't choose these skills he chooses a legend, he has less skills than the other professions, he never had access to the racial skill although it can be an accessory. Necro can throw elixirs and put his sand zones in several places to throw those barriers, ranger can put his spirits at distance, warrior can throw those banners. Gardien has long been a staple in groups. Revenant isn't a group must-have either; it's good, but not indispensable either. Maybe he will be, maybe he won't.

The distinction you're missing is that herald grants nearly everything on that 600 range. Other professions having the odd skill on that range doesn't stop them from having to rely on much tighter positioning and timing to perform their role. Herald just requires everyone to be in the general vicinity of the target in order to semi-passively output a wide range of boons.

Herald might not be indispensable, but it is becoming dominant to the point of suppressing other builds, with even the once-dominant firebrand mostly holding on due to so many people being used to it.

5 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

The herald doesn't yet offer stealth or super speed. Currently, the revenant can't give any really useful ranged buffs. And rather than criticizing the revenant and asking that others be improved, I'm in favor of the policy of pulling things up (better) rather than down (nerf).

Ventari exists in order to give buffs at range, and the 600 radius is pretty much the entire combat area of some fights. With herald slated to receive aegis and barrier within the next few months, saying that it doesn't have superspeed and stealth feels like a nitpicky argument at best. Neither are exactly in high demand outside of some competitive plays. 

The barrier being within a smaller radius isn't going to cripple revenant. Herald is pretty dominant in PvE as it is without having aegis or barrier at all.

[Angesombre.4630]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Man, you're not even bothering to put a jacket on that strawman...

The distinction you're missing is that herald grants nearly everything on that 600 range. Other professions having the odd skill on that range doesn't stop them from having to rely on much tighter positioning and timing to perform their role. Herald just requires everyone to be in the general vicinity of the target in order to semi-passively output a wide range of boons.

Herald might not be indispensable, but it is becoming dominant to the point of suppressing other builds, with even the once-dominant firebrand mostly holding on due to so many people being used to it.

Ventari exists in order to give buffs at range, and the 600 radius is pretty much the entire combat area of some fights. With herald slated to receive aegis and barrier within the next few months, saying that it doesn't have superspeed and stealth feels like a nitpicky argument at best. Neither are exactly in high demand outside of some competitive plays. 

The barrier being within a smaller radius isn't going to cripple revenant. Herald is pretty dominant in PvE as it is without having aegis or barrier at all.

So I'm going to take it from herald has already had CDs slightly increased on these skills. The dwarf had a triple nerf on the chain not so long ago with a small compensation because it was so reduced that it became almost useless, shiro also took on his way to regen. The demon took because of the torment rune that was nerfed and following the resistence modification that was barely compensated, with brill the f2 I'm not even sure many people use it when it's in demon. Invocation will take a minor trait. Vindicator hasn't stopped taking nerfs since its release, I can't even count the number of nerfs on it anymore, and it still has bugs that are always reported but not fixed (aquatic dodge and swordfish 3 with either a distance error or an error in the description). Swordfish has also taken that it's almost at sword level, not to mention how many years the hammer has been destroyed. Renegat is renegat... his elite has been reduced even though it was already situational and you can't use the marks because of the ground in many places.
Ventari's 240 radius isn't much to rave about either, and it doesn't give you many buffs either.

So the only thing I could agree on is that herald could just benefit from a bit of concentration for his buffs that's the only thing I could have to say about it.

So encourage Anet to nerf the herald because you think it's too good, well that's annoying. I don't understand why it bothers you? So if we reduce to 450 ok then we'll complain that the herald is less good in its zone? There'll be almost nothing left at 600, and you'll have removed the value of herald, which is the buff.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

So I'm going to take it from herald has already had CDs slightly increased on these skills. The dwarf had a triple nerf on the chain not so long ago with a small compensation because it was so reduced that it became almost useless, shiro also took on his way to regen. The demon took because of the torment rune that was nerfed and following the resistence modification that was barely compensated, with brill the f2 I'm not even sure many people use it when it's in demon. Invocation will take a minor trait. Vindicator hasn't stopped taking nerfs since its release, I can't even count the number of nerfs on it anymore, and it still has bugs that are always reported but not fixed (aquatic dodge and swordfish 3 with either a distance error or an error in the description). Swordfish has also taken that it's almost at sword level, not to mention how many years the hammer has been destroyed. Renegat is renegat... his elite has been reduced even though it was already situational and you can't use the marks because of the ground in many places.
Ventari's 240 radius isn't much to rave about either, and it doesn't give you many buffs either.

So the only thing I could agree on is that herald could just benefit from a bit of concentration for his buffs that's the only thing I could have to say about it.

So encourage Anet to nerf the herald because you think it's too good, well that's annoying. I don't understand why it bothers you? So if we reduce to 450 ok then we'll complain that the herald is less good in its zone? There'll be almost nothing left at 600, and you'll have removed the value of herald, which is the buff.

Where have I said anything about reducing the radius of herald boon application? Just recognising that it is what it is and that other supports are more restrictive regarding position and timing. Your strawman isn't even human-shaped at this point, it's just a haystack.

Point is that herald is good enough without having barrier at all. The barrier on the scepter auto being limited to the range of the auto isn't exactly going to cripple it.

Edited November 17, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[Wulfhearth.7962]

If anything, more other classes should get a bigger radius for their support stuff as well, rather than nerfing Herald. 

[Batalix.2873]

I don't even know what this is supposed to be, tbh.

Not only does this dilute Rev's very solid legend concept, but I don't think these abilities feel particularly kryptid-ish. They could have at least tied this to a specific legend thematically.

The design of this game just gets more and more arbitrary and bizarre.

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Batalix.2873 said:

I don't even know what this is supposed to be, tbh.

Not only does this dilute Rev's very solid legend concept, but I don't think these abilities feel particularly kryptid-ish. They could have at least tied this to a specific legend thematically.

The design of this game just gets more and more arbitrary and bizarre.

What is not kryptisch about the black/reddish design + black lingering cloud like some portal?

[Batalix.2873]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

What is not kryptisch about the black/reddish design + black lingering cloud like some portal?

That's always been Rev's aesthetic, the palette, the clouds, the portal. So yeah maybe it's pushing slightly toward the Kryptis, but overall it doesn't really communicate anything especially Kryptisch to me. Tethering and a giant sword are fine, I guess, but they don't feel like anything especially tied to Kryptids or any other legend.

It's just a very weird design choice, and I'm not sure if there was any elegant way to add things to Revenant under this new paradigm. But that just tells me the new paradigm kind of sucks and is kitting all over the established game's design principles.

[arazoth.7290]

7 minutes ago, Batalix.2873 said:

That's always been Rev's aesthetic, the palette, the clouds, the portal. So yeah maybe it's pushing slightly toward the Kryptis, but overall it doesn't really communicate anything especially Kryptisch to me. Tethering and a giant sword are fine, I guess, but they don't feel like anything especially tied to Kryptids or any other legend.

It's just a very weird design choice, and I'm not sure if there was any elegant way to add things to Revenant under this new paradigm. But that just tells me the new paradigm kind of sucks and is kitting all over the established game's design principles.

I will tell the way I see it for me personally, how it feels. They studied what they do and turned it into their own variant what they already can do with the mists. It's like a fighting style from an animal for example you mimic in weapons. It sorta resembles it but in your own style

And ofcourse yes to have it totally kryptic themed, we would need a new core stance and traitline for such. But that's not what they going to do. That would be a massive blow on other classes if we would get so much new and others a weapon 😅. But I think you didn't meant to go that far either.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

The second weapon I am maybe looking fowards to the most after necros double swords.

We'll see how this goes.

[arazoth.7290]

1 minute ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

The second weapon I am maybe looking fowards to the most after necros double swords.

We'll see how this goes.

Yea for every weapon on any class, we have to wait how they all play out. Little bit early to get the total picture already

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

I will tell the way I see it for me personally, how it feels. They studied what they do and turned it into their own variant what they already can do with the mists. It's like a fighting style from an animal for example you mimic in weapons. It sorta resembles it but in your own style

And ofcourse yes to have it totally kryptic themed, we would need a new core stance and traitline for such. But that's not what they going to do. That would be a massive blow on other classes if we would get so much new and others a weapon 😅. But I think you didn't meant to go that far either.

And there already IS a Legendary Demon Stance. Mallyx and the Margonites are very different to the Kryptis, but the Kryptis do show many properties in common with the Mallyx combat style even if the graphics are different.

My guess would be that the beam is inspired somewhat by the Envy eyebeam effect, while the other skills are loosely based on possession.

[Angesombre.4630]

On 11/17/2023 at 11:36 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Where have I said anything about reducing the radius of herald boon application? Just recognising that it is what it is and that other supports are more restrictive regarding position and timing. Your strawman isn't even human-shaped at this point, it's just a haystack.

Point is that herald is good enough without having barrier at all. The barrier on the scepter auto being limited to the range of the auto isn't exactly going to cripple it.

I didn't mention the scepter because we haven't seen anything on it yet. I just reacted to the range of its buffs on herald, where you said that only herald had this range when it's not true.
Yes there may be classes that are more restrictive on buffs than herald and that could have improvements on it on the duration or the effect of putting it as an engineer was very good before I think because I liked it (for quickness). Even if he was button-pressing in the way he did it, I'd rather have the engineer before than now.

But as I've tried to say, maybe I'm expressing myself badly, I'd rather not encourage a good class to be nerfed by Anet's unfortunate interpretation, but rather to improve the other classes a little to be on the same level.
At the same time, it's like comparing the version of heal alacrity with renegat versus druide. Druide is much more used for its ability than renegat at this level. I say this because I've hardly ever seen one. And if you look at it, you almost never see vindicator heal outside WvW for group content, because of its lack of useful buffs that players mainly want to share.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[draxynnic.3719]

On 11/20/2023 at 3:04 PM, Angesombre.4630 said:

I didn't mention the scepter because we haven't seen anything on it yet. I just reacted to the range of its buffs on herald, where you said that only herald had this range when it's not true.
Yes there may be classes that are more restrictive on buffs than herald and that could have improvements on it on the duration or the effect of putting it as an engineer was very good before I think because I liked it (for quickness). Even if he was button-pressing in the way he did it, I'd rather have the engineer before than now.

But as I've tried to say, maybe I'm expressing myself badly, I'd rather not encourage a good class to be nerfed by Anet's unfortunate interpretation, but rather to improve the other classes a little to be on the same level.
At the same time, it's like comparing the version of heal alacrity with renegat versus druide. Druide is much more used for its ability than renegat at this level. I say this because I've hardly ever seen one. And if you look at it, you almost never see vindicator heal outside WvW for group content, because of its lack of useful buffs that players mainly want to share.

Go back to the top of this page (or the previous page if this post starts a new page). Someone was asking for the barrier application to be 'half decent' - and I think, although it wasn't in the section I quoted, that what they had in mind was 600.

My language in response might have been a bit imprecise, but suffice it to say that when I said 'apply boons', I was not thinking of scenarios of a build having one skill that applies one or two boons at 600 range, but in terms of being able to perform the boon support or healing role they were brought for. In practice, most quickness or alacrity builds need a fairly tight ball, and if they're outside that range they're just not doing their job even if there are a couple of skills whose boons are landing. In this context, herald IS a little spoiled in that all of their important boons are applying at a radius large enough that you generally don't have to worry about it. This is not the standard expectation for boon support builds!

It can afford to have barrier application being a bit tighter - within the range of the beam would make sense - rather than the barrier going out to 600 like everything else.

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

On 11/13/2023 at 6:28 PM, Elric.4713 said:

They just had to go and make it melee, what a letdown for someone who wanted scepter on a Rev for years.

Melee scepter, range hammer, rev is ... interesting....to sy the least. 

[Flowki.7194]

I tried this scepter and my god what is this? You have 900 range on blossom, 900 range on other world which procs from auto hits, but auto is 300 range cap? Is this a joke? 😜 It must be.. and then trolling us with the shadowstep 1200 rangge. The 300 range, and enemy target drops also completely destroy the tether>pull concept. Auto needs 900 range, it makes no sense to be 300. It makes Hammer cata feel like an LB ranger.

Inbred specter..

 

Say im on vindi, you need <300 range and 6 auto attacks to proc the teather pull. If any class begins to kite with super speed/TP etc (which will be the obious work around to scepter rev), you need 2+ nomads just to get back into <300 to try and finish the auto procs. By then, 2+ nomads have probably put you back in melee range anyway, so there is no need for the pull anymore. But that assumes you even have that allience on CD. Even in the best case, its just pointless with <300 procs.

 

This is also an issue when supporting ranged team mates. You have to break position, run into melee range of enemy to get procs to boost team mates with might and fury. Thats just not worth the risk, 2 decent dps will drop you before you get the proc. It would be far more usable with 900 auto range but capping the might to 5 or w/e makes sense.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Polar.8634]

scepter giving rev least amount of skills was already sad, but i hoped weapon will be more or less usable on many builds. Judging from damage it outputs it is healer only weapon. Plus, it is autoattack heavy, auto is strong and to activate pull you also need to autoattack, which makes it pve only weapon.

To be clear i do like that healer build gets another weapon. But with karakosa relic mace isn't even bad choice now. I expected to get more value from big expansion feature.

It would be nice if scepter got some damage, also for skill 3 not needing autos to work to get improved effect, also skill 2. so that is it usable in other builds/gamemods. Otherwise 99.9% of players will not even use it.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Polar.8634

[Flowki.7194]

On 12/1/2023 at 10:08 PM, Polar.8634 said:

scepter giving rev least amount of skills was already sad, but i hoped weapon will be more or less usable on many builds. Judging from damage it outputs it is healer only weapon. Plus, it is autoattack heavy, auto is strong and to activate pull you also need to autoattack, which makes it pve only weapon.

To be clear i do like that healer build gets another weapon. But with karakosa relic mace isn't even bad choice now. I expected to get more value from big expansion feature.

It would be nice if scepter got some damage, also for skill 3 not needing autos to work to get improved effect, also skill 2. so that is it usable in other builds/gamemods. Otherwise 99.9% of players will not even use it.

Yes I thought this too, but also on more use there are even more problems.

 

The friendly teather also drops if they target drop, which is easy to miss in group fights. The scepter is physical dmg only, so that kinde kills any builds that wanted to lean into condi trait lines. We can argue over effectivness of this and that build, but in terms of build diversity, scepter is bad. As far as I know, all other scepter weapons come with physical and condi, I don't know why this one does not? The upkeep on scepter 3 is also very large, which completely limits you for doing anything other than autoattacking (if you even have melee range). That also means chasing down kiters you have teathered, very quickly leaves you with no energy, its not even worth chasing with active teather, again nullifying its pull mechanic. Herald already has upkeeps to manedge, I don't see how this weapon will work well when it will come at such a constant compromise of using basic abilitys. Support may need to pulse dome, or use dome for a prolonged time in fights that are ranged heavy, the teather and auto attack range in those situations is completely uselss, and a drain of energy.

 

To me, just remove the teather pull mechanic, its pointless, increase auto range instead. The upkeep needs to be reduced to 2 pips max, add some torment damage (or something) and then cap the might/furfy effect to compensate. Its just not usable or fun to play with under current mechanics.

Edited December 3, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[nosleepdemon.1368]

I am not particularly fond of the mechanics. I remember some time ago when Riot started updating old Champions in League of Legends, they introduced a lot of fiddly dual usage skills with strange AoE shapes. These new weapon skills seem similar in concept - let's increase skill complexity because more complexity equals higher skill ceiling. Getting the tether to work in WvW was largely pointless, I ended up just playing around with the Hammer changes. By the way, Hammer skill #2 still hits sweet F-All, so can't we get that fixed first?

[arazoth.7290]

•SCEPTER•

I write here what I think could be done to make it smoother/fluent and in some parts better damage.

• Skill 1 auto attack:  

- Barrier is applied on each auto attack and not only last. Numbers are ofcourse spread evenly from current.

- 3rd chain auto attack hits 5 people

- Make auto attack animations 25% faster, cast time stays same. Only the animations make it little bit slow for a 0,5sec cast.

• Skill 2 Blossoming Aura:

- 10 energy => 5 energy cost, little much for a 2nd skill.

- Buff in pve/wvw/pvp baseline damage of pulsing and final damage. The increasing effects from auto attack are done fine, only baseline needs little higher.

- Final damage also should hit 5 enemies around applied target in same 360 radius (damage isn't spread). 

• Skill 3 Otherwordly Bond:

- 3 upkeep cost reduced to => 2 upkeep.

- Tether upkeep stacks gets generated in 2 ways. Each 1 second while tether is active, it generates 1 stack. Ontop of each 1 sec passively, you can make it generate it faster through auto attacks still. This would make it smoother to use and more reliant for otherwordly attraction to use!

- Otherwordly attraction if you pull the targeted enemy with it, it should damage them heavy on impact of pull while still applying vurnability stacks.

If the target gets damaged on impact, enemies get hit around it in a 360 radius. It is little underwhelming atm because this isn't there.

This is too call it fair to otherwordly attraction shared barrier and teleport skill on allies.