Psa: clearing trash on fractals might be worth it.

[Firebeard.1746]

Just sayin'. It's not that uncommon to get lodestones in some of them. I have max personal permanent mf. 

[emtea.6931]

other thing to consider is that with power creep it's sometimes faster to clear the adds than try and skip them and have someone fail and then have to wait till ooc etc. mostly talking about harpies on uncata here 😄 

[Sobx.1758]

Yes, mobs can drop things. Not sure that's much of a psa 😉  

[Firebeard.1746]

21 hours ago, emtea.6931 said:

other thing to consider is that with power creep it's sometimes faster to clear the adds than try and skip them and have someone fail and then have to wait till ooc etc. mostly talking about harpies on uncata here 😄 

Yes. Many pugs fail at skips and you're right that it's probably worth it to clear trash based on that.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

its always faster to clear the adds these days, but everyone still skips them so they can run slowly to the next boss while in combat the entire time, one party member dead who can't revive, and no one able to pick up the mistlock singularities for better damage and utility in the next encounter.

 

but hey, its considered a skilled tactic to skip, so let's keep doing it as much as possible!

[Vinceman.4572]

I cannot agree. For skipping it just needs one player to actually make it and then everyone else gg's and it's done. It's always faster if people are on track and not sleeping, playing like a snail or don't know about "/gg".

 On Uncat. I always skip the 2nd part of climbing with my dragonhunter. People haven't even killed the first harpy when I'm up and already triggered the new spawning point. 

[TheNurgle.4825]

31 minutes ago, Vinceman.4572 said:

I cannot agree. For skipping it just needs one player to actually make it and then everyone else gg's and it's done. It's always faster if people are on track and not sleeping, playing like a snail or don't know about "/gg".

 On Uncat. I always skip the 2nd part of climbing with my dragonhunter. People haven't even killed the first harpy when I'm up and already triggered the new spawning point. 

I have only two issue with /gg being faster. First is that it was not intended for skips. Second actual skips are in seconds and not even 60 secs. Most of times with using /gg you save 5-20 secs per fractal and for some unknown reason ppl see this as huge time save.

PS In Uncat. you can even skip first jumping part with /gg.

 

[Vinceman.4572]

3 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

I have only two issue with /gg being faster. First is that it was not intended for skips. Second actual skips are in seconds and not even 60 secs. Most of times with using /gg you save 5-20 secs per fractal and for some unknown reason ppl see this as huge time save.

PS In Uncat. you can even skip first jumping part with /gg.

 

I don't know in which universe but taking into considerations we ran fractals on a daily basis even before Heart of Thorns you can see that most of the fractals were run since eons and lots of us don't want to kill the same trash over and over again. We also had the same discussion about dungeon trash mobs way before End of Dragons while it was already very easy to clear the trash compared to vanilla dungeon time. 
There is so much that is not "intended" to be played by the devs in the game but far from being forbidden or at least not wanted. On the contrary it is tolerated because a lot of stuff is very smart or tricky play by the community. It's fabulous you can start your own group how you like it and you'll also get enough players that clear the stuff with you. Nevertheless don't force others to do stuff in a video game you want but they probably won't due to you not being clear in your lfg beforehand.

I usually want a fast clear without UFE stuff and in 90% of my runs it's not an issue. And also the majority of these non-UFE groups that play with heal and alac dps don't want to clear the trash as well because they know it's faster without when doing it properly. So, no, my opposition just goes against those who are saying they are faster in clearing because they definitely are not. 

PS: First part in uncat is barely skipped in T4s because it is the shorter way and no necessary to wait for one to get through because all can make it very fast. And for the 2nd skip the player who skips can turn away before the golem is down and start running towards the entrance.

Last but not least you can save more than 5-20 seconds with skips and deeper knowledge of the fractals without being a speed runner. Maybe you don't know all tactics yet but in the end it can save up to 10 minutes in a whole meta T4 + Rec pug run which is huge. The thing is we all have different standards. The group with 25k UFE no heal run would probably kick me for not being on top level while I would leave groups in which I don't get quickness, alacrity or players with a class that is capable of stripping boons deny that because they are playing weird stuff. The good thing is: The lfg.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Vinceman.4572

[Biziut.3594]

Do You peoples saying about skipping being bad actually know them? I was already called God Gamer twice for skipping and turning off all platforms in aetherblade fractal, which takes definitly more than 20 seconds to complete normally.

Skipping harpies jp on uncategorised with one jump as Vinc mentioned is pretty sick too, I thankfully can't even remember when I had to run this jp thanks to this skip.

Molten Boss, one tp thas skips you like 4 waves of enemies.

Trap skips on cliffside

Engi skip on solid ocean that let your whole pt basicly tp to the boss without someone messing the jump and thus stalling for time.

Deepstone pit skip to the last wisp by jumping on the wall, like I don't think I ever saw any pt doing it normal way.

Choya tonic in snowblind run to the boss may not be much, but after making it 1000 times you just want to get it done fast, and it's not like I have seen anyone killing this mobs like ever.

Thaumanova, not saving the prisoners and doing other rooms while they burn is massive time saver as well. 

There are probably much more, as I have written only ones from the top of my head. One skip may save you 1-3 minutes, few of this skips in one run can save you way more time.

Ohh The ascalon city one, where no matter how long way it will roll for you, you can just climb the rooftop, jump building to building, assassins creed style and get to the checkpoint in 30 seconds. Saved me lot of time while running with pugs or newbies.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

you got me there, i certainly don't know anything about fractals.

[Cyninja.2954]

16 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

I have only two issue with /gg being faster. First is that it was not intended for skips. Second actual skips are in seconds and not even 60 secs. Most of times with using /gg you save 5-20 secs per fractal and for some unknown reason ppl see this as huge time save.

PS In Uncat. you can even skip first jumping part with /gg.

 

Different skips save different amounts of time. Some save significantly more time than others. Let's do a small math exercise:

Assumption saving 20 seconds on average per fractal (that's low balling it but I'm intentionally taking a very small number)

Fractals per day: 8 (CMs+T4+recs, accounting for newest CM being not that old and occasional CM being also daily)

Average time saved per day: (20x8)/60= 2.6 minutes

Average time saved per year: 973 minutes = 16 hours.

Now I have been fractal god for over 4 years going on 5, which means I've run my share of fractals even before EoD came out and since then too. Back when I was doing FG, there were only 1 and eventually 2 CM, so it took around 1.5-2 years to complete. These 20 seconds amounted to more than 1 day in saved time (and again, I was low-balling here, this goes into multiple days time saved FAST if we assume 5-10 minutes per day). That's just for getting FG. I ran a lot of fractals before and since.

Please stop looking at things in this game from the "occasional" gamer perspective. If you run T4+recs a couple of times per month or maybe even per week, you have no idea what dedicated players are looking at time wise, and those are the ones you are complaining about.

The only issue here is when less experienced players start doing skips (some of which are easy, some are hard) and fail, thus costing the group more time. That's on the individual player though, not the actual approach to skip. Know your skill level and the group you are playing with.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Nimris.3781]

On 11/29/2023 at 4:33 PM, TheNurgle.4825 said:

I have only two issue with /gg being faster. First is that it was not intended for skips.

and that is according to who...? there was a reason why checkpoints are always before boss fights, not after and are shared between party members. so a slower or unexperienced players that struggle with monsters or jumping puzzles can just wait for someone to reach checkpoint, gg and continue playing with their party.

also many jumps are just so conviniently placed... that one could think they are pretty much intentional. like uncategorized jump after Tom, underground facility, urban battleground building skip, molten boss tp, cliffside tp to boss etc. they could fix all of them in single day if they were unintentional ( like for cliffside/molten boss breaking path finding, removing hill in uncategorized, making lava in volcanic 1-shot you) but they didnt touch that.

also its not that they dont care at all, as they removed skip in underground facility where engi was jumping inside cage or aetherblade skip to last boss ( but didnt touch anything else there)

 

On 11/29/2023 at 2:36 AM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

run slowly to the next boss while in combat the entire time, one party member dead who can't revive, and no one able to pick up the mistlock singularities for better damage and utility in the next encounter.

first of, mistlock gives you only +5 agony and cheat-death effect. there is no "better dmg and utility"

but more importantly, over all 22 fractals i can only think of 2 maybe 3 mistlocks where mobs can get you stuck in combat and its very hard to avoid them. but beside these 2-3 mistlocks all mobs are scripted to run back at some point or there are no mobs at all around mistlock. (sometimes you have to move just slightly behind misltock for mob "leash" to activate and pull them back). experienced players dont get stuck in combat

11 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

you got me there, i certainly don't know anything about fractals.

apparently you dont, based on what you wrote here. 

 

Just like Biziut and Cyninja said, experinced players can easily save 30sec+ with skips per fractal (probably with an exception of aquatic) and static party can save even 1-2min in some cases (like cliffside). add playing proper classes (like power dps, not trolling with condi thief) and suddenly T4+rec is done 15min faster every day. if you did this on daily basis, you would easily notice difference.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

7 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

and that is according to who...? there was a reason why checkpoints are always before boss fights, not after and are shared between party members. so a slower or unexperienced players that struggle with monsters or jumping puzzles can just wait for someone to reach checkpoint, gg and continue playing with their party.

also many jumps are just so conviniently placed... that one could think they are pretty much intentional. like uncategorized jump after Tom, underground facility, urban battleground building skip, molten boss tp, cliffside tp to boss etc. they could fix all of them in single day if they were unintentional ( like for cliffside/molten boss breaking path finding, removing hill in uncategorized, making lava in volcanic 1-shot you) but they didnt touch that.

also its not that they dont care at all, as they removed skip in underground facility where engi was jumping inside cage or aetherblade skip to last boss ( but didnt touch anything else there)

 

first of, mistlock gives you only +5 agony and cheat-death effect. there is no "better dmg and utility"

but more importantly, over all 22 fractals i can only think of 2 maybe 3 mistlocks where mobs can get you stuck in combat and its very hard to avoid them. but beside these 2-3 mistlocks all mobs are scripted to run back at some point or there are no mobs at all around mistlock. (sometimes you have to move just slightly behind misltock for mob "leash" to activate and pull them back). experienced players dont get stuck in combat

apparently you dont, based on what you wrote here. 

 

Just like Biziut and Cyninja said, experinced players can easily save 30sec+ with skips per fractal (probably with an exception of aquatic) and static party can save even 1-2min in some cases (like cliffside). add playing proper classes (like power dps, not trolling with condi thief) and suddenly T4+rec is done 15min faster every day. if you did this on daily basis, you would easily notice difference.

just so you know, my posts are tongue-in cheek (not serious), and mistlock resets all your cooldowns which is very important for certain classes. perhaps the most important thing is that it helps reset the white mantle portal cooldown allowing for additional skips.

Edited December 1, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[TheNurgle.4825]

15 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

and that is according to who...? there was a reason why checkpoints are always before boss fights, not after and are shared between party members. so a slower or unexperienced players that struggle with monsters or jumping puzzles can just wait for someone to reach checkpoint, gg and continue playing with their party.

also many jumps are just so conviniently placed... that one could think they are pretty much intentional. like uncategorized jump after Tom, underground facility, urban battleground building skip, molten boss tp, cliffside tp to boss etc. they could fix all of them in single day if they were unintentional ( like for cliffside/molten boss breaking path finding, removing hill in uncategorized, making lava in volcanic 1-shot you) but they didnt touch that.

also its not that they dont care at all, as they removed skip in underground facility where engi was jumping inside cage or aetherblade skip to last boss ( but didnt touch anything else there)

Not sure if serious or troll? Where would you like to have checkpoints after boss fights? That make no sense. Checkpoints before boss make sense since if your party die on that boss, then they just spawn right at boss and not somewhere else and need to run or do jumping again.

Fractals have little to no work done from release and it was rushed and you can tell by these "skips". Noone create content or part of dungeon/raid/fractal for players to skip it. That is huge waste of resources. How many skips do you have in Silent Surf fractal?

Issue is that they can not fix "skips" in fractals due to large population doing fractals using them just look at rune change and introduction of relics.

PS Fractal skips in any other MMO would be fixed and in some you would get banned by using them.

[Nimris.3781]

4 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Where would you like to have checkpoints after boss fights? That make no sense.

thats exactly how most games operate. you complete certain part, kill boss and than unlock checkpoint. some games dont have checkpoints at all and party wipe means 2-3 min running through instance.

players often bring wow dungeons/mythic+ here on this forum. this is exactly how checkpoints work there, they are unlocked after killing boss so if you wipe on the first boss, you run from dungeon entrance. wow doesnt want rogues to just stealth skip all mobs and doesnt have /gg command to make ressing on checkpoint even faster.

4 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Fractals have little to no work done from release and it was rushed and you can tell by these "skips". Noone create content or part of dungeon/raid/fractal for players to skip it. That is huge waste of resources.

clearly you dont know it but beside bug fixing, nearly all fractals had some mechanics changes/adjustments and some fractals had increased pacing to make them faster. just to name some, cliffside, snowblind, swampland were reworked. there were huge patches dedicated to fractals and here you write "little to no work done", lol.

4 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

How many skips do you have in Silent Surf fractal?

maybe lets start with challange mote that lets you skip 90% of instance?

4 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Issue is that they can not fix "skips" in fractals due to large population doing fractals using them just look at rune change and introduction of relics.

it did not stop them from fixing underground facility engi skip. their reasoning was clear: they are totaly fine with any skips as long as its not a bug and is within playable area. getting inside that cage was considered outside of playable area and they decided to fix that.

Aetherblade skip was using glitch so it got fixed as well. (and afaik few ppl that abused it to farm gold extremely fast got few days of ban)

5 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

PS Fractal skips in any other MMO would be fixed and in some you would get banned by using them.

well, yes and that might be because...

20 hours ago, Nimris.3781 said:

On 11/29/2023 at 4:33 PM, TheNurgle.4825 said:

I have only two issue with /gg being faster. First is that it was not intended for skips.

and that is according to who...? there was a reason why checkpoints are always before boss fights, not after and are shared between party members. so a slower or unexperienced players that struggle with monsters or jumping puzzles can just wait for someone to reach checkpoint, gg and continue playing with their party.

also many jumps are just so conviniently placed... that one could think they are pretty much intentional.

its obvious that anet is fine with skips (or some are even intended) if they are not fixed despite so many changes to fractals and no one getting banned for using them, right?

[Sobx.1758]

7 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Issue is that they can not fix "skips" in fractals due to large population doing fractals using them just look at rune change and introduction of relics.

What is this weird take, they can fix it if they don't want to see it in the game and "a lot of people doing it" changes nothing about that.

7 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

PS Fractal skips in any other MMO would be fixed and in some you would get banned by using them.

This sure sounds like "source: I just made it up" contender. Not killing optional trashmobs in mmorpg somehow being a bannable offense sure is a new one. If they didn't want you to take certain jumps, they'd just put an invisible -or visible- wall and be done with it. It's not a hard fix if they wanted to fix anything about it.

Edited December 1, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, TheNurgle.4825 said:

Not sure if serious or troll? Where would you like to have checkpoints after boss fights? That make no sense. Checkpoints before boss make sense since if your party die on that boss, then they just spawn right at boss and not somewhere else and need to run or do jumping again.

Fractals have little to no work done from release and it was rushed and you can tell by these "skips". Noone create content or part of dungeon/raid/fractal for players to skip it. That is huge waste of resources. How many skips do you have in Silent Surf fractal?

Issue is that they can not fix "skips" in fractals due to large population doing fractals using them just look at rune change and introduction of relics.

PS Fractal skips in any other MMO would be fixed and in some you would get banned by using them.

Very little of this makes sense. Fractal skips in any other MMO would be fixed? Skipping would get you banned? OK ... but GW2 isn't 'any other MMO' ... it's GW2 so what 'any other MMO' does is irrelevant. 

But here is the thing. If skips were a problem in GW2, Anet COULD fix that, regardless of population or anything else. The fact they don't 'fix' skips should tell you something about how much of a problem skipping ISN'T. 

I mean, trash is worth killing? That depends just as much on WHO is killing them as it does WHAT those trash drop. 

[Linken.6345]

Hey Op precursors can drop from any mob so start murderhoboing your way through the game from the second level mate.

[devzero.4093]

On 12/1/2023 at 5:16 PM, Nimris.3781 said:

players often bring wow dungeons/mythic+ here on this forum. this is exactly how checkpoints work there, they are unlocked after killing boss so if you wipe on the first boss, you run from dungeon entrance. wow doesnt want rogues to just stealth skip all mobs and doesnt have /gg command to make ressing on checkpoint even faster.

WoW players love having their time wasted by having to walk back to the boss after a wipe so I just ignore whatever those players suggest for other games. It isn't even good design, it's just old practice that has been carried through the WoW expansions without giving it second thoughts according to Ion Hazzikostas in one of his interviews.

[Gop.8713]

Skips are good for two groups: Ppls who see the game as work and want to maximize 'efficiency' and epeeners who tie their ego to their game performance. For everyone else op is right, killing the trash is worth considering, at least on a case by case basis . . .

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Gop.8713 said:

Skips are good for two groups: Ppls who see the game as work and want to maximize 'efficiency' and epeeners who tie their ego to their game performance. For everyone else op is right, killing the trash is worth considering, at least on a case by case basis . . .

Or maybe some people are bored with wiping the floor with worthless trashmobs, so they're just getting to "the main encounters" instead 🤔 

And no, OP still is not right, because he's trying to build his argument on worth of drops you can get, which you just dismissed in your post as "Ppls who see the game as work and want to maximize 'efficiency'". Spoiler alert: that "maximized efficiency" is about that same worth of drops/gold OP is trying to refer here.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Nimris.3781]

21 hours ago, devzero.4093 said:

WoW players love having their time wasted by having to walk back to the boss after a wipe so I just ignore whatever those players suggest for other games. It isn't even good design, it's just old practice that has been carried through the WoW expansions without giving it second thoughts according to Ion Hazzikostas in one of his interviews.

Wow players definitely dont like having their time wasted. mythic+ are timed content and people value their time so much that if they see run going slowly (progress compared to remaining time) or group wipes twice etc. they leave mid dungeon because key wont be completed in time. They could stay until end for lower rewards but they dont. you can even find lfg with "weekly/no leavers" etc. that just want weekly rewards and dont care about doing key in time.

Checkpoints being far from boss and unlocked after boss fight is not bad design for wow standards as you have 2 classes with perma stealth there. If checkpoints were unlocked just by someone walking next to the boss, new meta for wow dungeons would be 4 party members die to nearest mobs and rogue doing solo trip to checkpoint to skip every trash mob possible. Because of that reason i doubt Ion Hazzikostas said that walking back to boss after wipe is bad design.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Nimris.3781