Expanded Weapon Proficiencies Beta Feedback: Warrior

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 minute ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Those professions have especs to bolster their support, as well as profession mechanics that provide extra utility/support. For this weapon to work in order to make warrior support possible, it has to do a lot.

Like I said above though, lets focus on getting the functionality of the weapon right. Raw numbers can be tweaked easily later.

Then what needs to be enhanced is the other things, traits, mechanics, not this weapon. 

But I do agree, that staff 3 is very clunky. It will be super powerful when you use in melee range, but not so helpful if you run from a far place. And blast finisher is certainly required.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

Then what needs to be enhanced is the other things, traits, mechanics, not this weapon. 

We've provided plenty of suggestions to that effect in the past, and yet here we are... A MH or 2H weapon has been needed before anything else could really happen.

For traits, Mending might healing allies you grant might to, removing the CD from Marching Orders, making Soldier's Comfort tiered off of adrenaline, adding a new F2 to warrior that provides other benefits while moving Berserk and FC to a F3, and even adding a MH support weapon to pair with Warhorn are things that can be done.

Again, lets focus on getting the functionality of the weapon right first rather than get held up on output numbers, those are the easiest things to fix at any point.

13 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

But I do agree, that staff 3 is very clunky. It will be super powerful when you use in melee range, but not so helpful if you run from a far place. And blast finisher is certainly required.

At least 1 blast, possibly 2. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

10 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

Feedback: The staff is nice, but by and large Warriors simply do not have the traits to synergize with staff. Currently staff is incredible healing which is fine but it's hampered heavily by two specific problems:

Problem1: The biggest problem with Staff isn't the Staff itself, it's the fact that no other weapon in the Warrior's kit provides the kind of support necessary to cover the 10 seconds of weapon swap cooldown, which is more than enough time to get your party killed in both instanced & competitive content. By swapping out of staff you almost entirely cut off healing support to your team.

You mean 5s. The expectation is you have Discipline, so its a 5s weapon swap. That is enough time to swap to x/warhorn, use the two warhorn skills, and get back into staff.

10 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

Proposed Solution1: Mending Might - Applying Might to an Ally heals the affected target. This would allow Warriors to provide ongoing healing through Might Generation even while swapped to a different weapon set while maintaining the priority of Staff being THE support weapon.

It also instantlymakes Marching Orders, Phalanx Strength, and Empower Allies (all Tactics traits) into a solid healing build foundation, makes other traitlines (Discipline, Strength, Bladesworn) potential alternative choices for support-hybrid builds, and additionally turns to Banner of Strength into a secondary a healing utility for both the Warrior and the party.

This still needs to happen.

10 hours ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

Problem2: Adrenaline generation is awful. Staff simply does have the effects (immob, disable) or number-of-hits to generate enough Adrenaline to reasonably access Burst. Warriors live and die by their ability to access Bursts, and Staff is taking that problem and making it everyone else's problem if Warriors attempt a support role. 

Proposed Solutions2: Adrenaline on Healing via Staff Skills (Regen does not count) -  There's unique mechanics in specific weapons (Elementalist Pistol, Ranger Maces) so it's not unprecedented for the new SotO weapons.

This could be baked into the staff skills, or baked into adrenaline itself, or via a trait in Tactics. An adrenaline on healing trait can be a simple as 5 adrenaline with a 1s ICD to stop things like FGJ from fully filling the adrenaline bar in one heal. The staff skills could also have riders that they grant 1 strike of adrenaline per ally that receives healing or boons.

 

[Jzaku.9765]

44 minutes ago, Drag You Down.2615 said:

I am not saying the basic concept and design is bad, but it needs to be balanced, big numbers does not make this a better weapon for healing. Seems like ppl didn't calculate with their gears, let me tell you.

When you have 1500 healing power and 60% boon duration, you staff 3 has 6500 healing with 6.5 sec aegis and protections, with group breakstun with group 3 unblockables, with only 12 sec CD, this will be 9 secs with alac. your staff 5 has 5500 minimum heal and maximum 10k+ healing and 9.5 sec resolution with 20 sec CD, 16 secs with alac.

I can't find anything that can compete with this number. See what Ranger staff has, and Revenant staff has, less than 1/3 of this heal with the same healing power, and even longer CD, and not that many bonuses. Even they have more healing skills by nature, but they need time to activate, the HPS, healing per second will still be lower than this. I am not sure if this is the real BALANCE. When Warrior is going to have a 5 digits number healing, Engineer is having a weapon healing skill with only 180 radius and 500 each pulse, how pitiful.

If there is ascended gears, with a combination of stats, you can get 1650 healing power and 75% boon duration very easily, the number will just be higher. Just tell me if there is any other weapon can do the same thing. This number is ridiculous in PvE at least. But the numbers are reasonable in pvp and wvw tho.

Look at it this way - Staff alone is attempting to put Warrior on the same level as, e.g., the entirety of Druid including all CA skills. Then reassess how much it needs to do to be competitive.

[Arctarius.2649]

11 minutes ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

Look at it this way - Staff alone is attempting to put Warrior on the same level as, e.g., the entirety of Druid including all CA skills. Then reassess how much it needs to do to be competitive.

Exactly. The weapon does not have a spec or class-specific F ability like the elite specs the staff carries the entire healing on the warrior. it has to be strong. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

*Gestures upward* Staff needs to be strong for support warrior to have a spot in the support roster until Tactics is beefed up, a support espec appears, a new F2 appears suddenly, and/or a support MH weapon appears that can be paired with Warhorn.

[XilverXliver.2419]

Supporting and healing your teammates by bonking enemies with a staff has been very fun. I can see this working very well once this this goes live. Here's my feedback:

1) AA Chain: Animation loop looks nice, except that last part, animation and sound effect doesn't fit.

2) Valiant Leap: Good support and offensive skill, and the heals and boons are nice. Should definitely be a blast finisher.

3) Line Breaker: Ally targeting is stressful; make it so both the damage and heal/support aspects happen regardless of who your target is. Also, please replace the terrible rush animation.

4) Snap Pull: Very useful skill.

5) Bullet Catcher: Nice block skill and with a cool animation to boot. The bonus boon duration while blocking should be replaced with something else imo, like stability. Make it a blast finisher please. Biggest issue is that the blocking part either doesn't happen or is interrupted even without any input.

6) Path to Victory: Simple damage and heal/support burst. An added knockback effect will be nice to coincide with its name. Also, please make it a blast finisher and remove the sound effect like the last AA chain.

[Geoff Fey.1035]

19 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You mean 5s. The expectation is you have Discipline, so its a 5s weapon swap. That is enough time to swap to x/warhorn, use the two warhorn skills, and get back into staff.

Ah, I forgot that Vengeful Return was changed to a healing boost; I was caught up thinking Doubled Standards was the only support-focused trait available in Discipline. I do see your point with the Weapon Swap & Burst Mastery/Hightened Focus helping shore up the issues with Adrenaline & Burst access.

 

[Snowskau.4369]

Line breaker is Staff's strongest support skill and you effectively cannot use it if you're tanking in raids. That's a pretty big L. I'm starting to think the skill should just be reworked entirely and it's boons put onto Defiant Roar.

The animation for Inspiring Whirl should also be replaced. The windup feels to long while the whirl feels too fast, but that all goes out the window anyway when you're moving and your character's torso just snaps around in a single frame because the legs can't turn around. The animation straight up breaks.
I'm also not keen on Balanced strike--my character lifts the staff straight up behind their head, but then brings it around at an angle. That doesn't feel very "Balanced". It just looks like the character is sacrificing so much energy from the swing in order to alter it's trajectory, instead of, you know, smacking the enemy with directed force.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Snowskau.4369

[DarkLancer.1902]

Who came up with this? The Warrior is a profession designed around the concept that it doesn't use magic & doesn't need to. Yet here we are, giving the Warrior a MAGIC HEALING STICK. The kit does NOT jive with the Warrior concept, and, depending on how much of a rules-lawyer you are, could even be said to break the game's lore. I could see this being a Spellbreaker thing -- in fact, it makes much more sense that the Sunspears would have hacked the heads off their spears and used the hafts as quarterstaves, with healing powers, to restore the imbalance of magic caused by Joko, than hacking the heads off their spears & using the heads as daggers. (The severe deficiencies in the dagger weapon kit are something to discuss at a different time.)

Oh, and the bug noted many times above, that Skill 5 'Bullet Catcher' is interrupted by the auto-attack does severely limit the effectiveness of that skill.

That said, this does what it says on the box. High-octane front-line support, lots of healing, and the 'infinite might' Spellbreaker build turns it into an immortal tank/healer. Damage suffers, but it was meant to be a support weapon, not DPS.

9/10 on performance, 2/10 on concept.

[Drag You Down.2615]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

We've provided plenty of suggestions to that effect in the past, and yet here we are... A MH or 2H weapon has been needed before anything else could really happen.

For traits, Mending might healing allies you grant might to, removing the CD from Marching Orders, making Soldier's Comfort tiered off of adrenaline, adding a new F2 to warrior that provides other benefits while moving Berserk and FC to a F3, and even adding a MH support weapon to pair with Warhorn are things that can be done.

Again, lets focus on getting the functionality of the weapon right first rather than get held up on output numbers, those are the easiest things to fix at any point.

At least 1 blast, possibly 2. 

I understand that, but at the same time, putting all the hope on just one weapon and making it as ridiculous as possible to wish warrior can be a competitive healing support, is very lazy and too superficial.

They did do some good changes with chaos trait line for mesmer this time. I believe that they can do something better for tactic. Marching Order is one of the most underwhelming supportive traits currently and it must be changed. Also some traits in elite specs can also be more supportive, like making Eternal Champion from Berserker affects 5 allies. And some utility and healing skills can be more supportive for the group.

But anyway, this is too much, being able to keep at least 8 boons 100% uptime for Berserker and crazy healing at the same time are just too much. If they can even this out, like having another main hand healing weapon and share some functions on that, will be much more balanced.

[Fueki.4753]

1 hour ago, DarkLancer.1902 said:

Who came up with this? The Warrior is a profession designed around the concept that it doesn't use magic & doesn't need to.

This is objectively false. Lore clearly states that every profession uses magic. And yes, that includes Warriors and Engineers.

[DarkLancer.1902]

10 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

This is objectively false. Lore clearly states that every profession uses magic. And yes, that includes Warriors and Engineers.

Please provide a link to the relevant page. I've been looking through everything official and unofficial about Warriors, and both the official page & the wiki clearly state that the Warrior is a master of PHYSICAL combat, not magic. The Spellbreaker was special because it was a Warrior that learned a limited degree of magic to counter Joko and his awakened.

[Lighter.5631]

Blue needs to be turned gold...or even gold blue mix...blue is never part of warrior color pallet it just looks weird paired with other skills

 

Auto 3 too loud just like bsw

 

Too many big cds

Edited November 29, 2023 by Lighter.5631

[Kris Knives.8513]

I very much enjoyed staff and cannot wait or its release in 2024.

Negatives:
1.)  Glitchy had several instances where things failed to animate or execute properly.

2.)  Stun break on 3 is almost impossible to time.  I don't think I'll every successfully execute a stun break with this power.

3.)  Defiant Roar seems like it should be a shout.  I mean, come on, what is the difference between a roar and a shout?  It should synergize with tactics.

4.)  As noted, a lack of combos.

Positives:
1.)  Movement - I really enjoyed this aspect of the staff, I always felt like I was right where I needed to be in the center of the action supporting everyone.

2.)  Great mix of buffs, debuffs, healing and damage.  The weapon felt very versatile and useful.

3.)  Regen from Auto attack felt great

Overall:
I am so excited for Staff Warrior.   The staff felt very good on Berserker and Bladesworn but didn't feel like it offered much to Spell Breaker but I'd rather see Spell Breaker change rather than the staff.

[oscuro.9720]

This is my preliminary review of staff as a weapon:

DISCLAIMER: Please keep in mind I am a mostly solo player who predominantly does wvw/sPvP. This review has nothing to do with PvE. Since I play solo, I’m mostly focused on its ability in roaming, dueling, and small group competitive. My testing was only in duels against players I would consider to be exceptionally good. I never fought anyone my skill level or beneath. 

CONCEPT:

GRADE: A

The concept of the weapon is great imo. How it functions, the much, etc. idk what other people are saying, but it’s absolutely solid.

VIABILITY: 

GRADE: D-

As it stands, for solo play/dueling, the numbers are in a state that I do not believe the weapon to be viable presently. On zerk eagle runes (2.3k power, 60% crit, 217% crit damage), I struggled to make anything outside the burst skill hit for over 2k. Let me expand upon why this is a problem;

Warrior’s kit functions on combining skills from weapon kits. This is how the class has been balanced for nearly a decade. In order for the weapon to be able to slot into a Warrior build, it needs either a setup or utility and a damage skill that fits into a combo. For example, axe/shield has damage+setup+utility. GS has utility+arcing slice (setup is on weapon bar). However, the damage is the absolute necessity. Why? Because when you land a setup on axe/shield (for a random example), half the time you will weapon swap to finish the combo with the other sets skills. The natural progression from there is to setup with the next weapon set and combo into axe skills. Presently staff offers nothing to combo into and I believe this to be a severely limiting factor.

For staff, this should specifically be baked into either 2 or 3 imo. Both are hard to land, and when they do, the damage payout is minuscule (I literally hit under 600 vs a zerk soulbeast with zerk Warrior once).

The argument for staff 2: The natural combo

When I used staff 4, my first instinct was to drop staff 2 on them. This was ALWAYS  a mistake. Despite it FEELING punchy and impactful, it does no damage. So this is an argument predicated on how things feel to use, which I believe is a valid argument.

The argument for staff 3: The mechanical argument

staff 3 is already separated into an ally targeted version and an enemy targeted version. This prevents double dipping on the proverbial power budget. It’s more reliable to land imo, and is a solid skill overall.

I would recommend raising the damage on both (so that they can at least hit like dagger leaps or t1 evi maybe?) and have one be more is a burst-them kind of skill that hits more in the arcing slice range (this is assuming a full glass build zerk armor, eagle runes, brawler relic). To balance this, adding a requirement for large damage, such as requiring the foes to be disabled to increase the damage would be a good idea I believe. I’m fact this could likely be added on both skill 2 and the burst skill to give more damage into the kit while keeping it conditional and playing into Warrior’s CC intensive kit.

Those are just my thoughts as a long time warrior player whose reached what I believe to be a fairly good understanding of the class and high level of skill in this game. If that is not your design direction, I completely understand that. I’m a damage focused player, and that is certainly not everyone, and I don’t understand support at all. With that in mind it makes the next portion extremely important;

ENJOYMENT

GRADE: A

It’s very rare I enjoy something that has no damage. But goddammit this weapon is fun to play with. It feels like Warrior but more modern. Great job on the design, i was taking a break and this weapon literally makes me excited to play again 🙂 

 

this is just a preliminary review, I’ve only played with staff for a couple hours. I’m going to make a move comprehensive post in the future probably. I’m also not going to comment on potential bugs, given the skill icons are still place holders. Overall, I give the staff an A-. Needs damage to be viable as anything but a support weapon. I have no idea how it will function as a support weapon.

[cmdrpengu.3012]

32 minutes ago, DarkLancer.1902 said:

Please provide a link to the relevant page. I've been looking through everything official and unofficial about Warriors, and both the official page & the wiki clearly state that the Warrior is a master of PHYSICAL combat, not magic. The Spellbreaker was special because it was a Warrior that learned a limited degree of magic to counter Joko and his awakened.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/1#post6171371

This is what I've seen referenced in the past regarding Warriors and their use of magic.

[Fueki.4753]

42 minutes ago, DarkLancer.1902 said:

Please provide a link to the relevant page.

Here's one example: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet

Last time I played my Warrior (which was today), she still used Signets.

Then here's something from Scott McGough, who was the Narrative Lead in 2016: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/1#post6171371

"[...] warriors and engineers absolutely can use magic. Most of their skills are presented as nonmagical, but they do wield magical or magic-infused weaponry, so the lines get blurred (and the debate you’re describing occurs). Take the warrior’s torch skill Flames of War, for example. It creates a mobile flame field that follows the player around and explodes when it expires. There may be a non-magical weapon that can do those things, but a simple knotty branch with a burning oily rag tied to the end isn’t one of them. Likewise, the engineer’s pistol produces a lot of different effects—poison, burning, bouncy lighting blasts, glue—and it’s pretty hard to say there’s no magic involved in a pistol that serves as a dart gun, flamethrower, arc thrower, and glue bomb (and never needs reloading).

So there is no absolute in this case—i.e., you can’t say “warriors never use magic” any more than you can say “warriors always use magic.” Most warrior and engineer skills generally don’t use magic, but there are some with a clear magical component, be it in the weapon itself or in the skill’s effects."

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Fueki.4753

[Hasmadad.4293]

The weapon should visually be a warbanner. Not just a skin for the staff, but on the effects as well. Especially when you slam the staff down for 5 it should be a moment of cool, not a moment of "eh". It should also have far more impact, because right now it feels like I'm spinning around like a fat jedi kid instead of hitting stuff..

[Fueki.4753]

5 minutes ago, Hasmadad.4293 said:

The weapon should visually be a warbanner. Not just a skin for the staff, but on the effects as well. Especially when you slam the staff down for 5 it should be a moment of cool, not a moment of "eh". It should also have far more impact, because right now it feels like I'm spinning around like a fat jedi kid instead of hitting stuff..

Like the Lothric War banner skill in Dark Souls 3?

[HeliosMagi.9867]

4 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

This could be baked into the staff skills, or baked into adrenaline itself, or via a trait in Tactics. An adrenaline on healing trait can be a simple as 5 adrenaline with a 1s ICD to stop things like FGJ from fully filling the adrenaline bar in one heal. The staff skills could also have riders that they grant 1 strike of adrenaline per ally that receives healing or boons.

I think an even better solution would be a trait that grants adrenaline upon granting a boon to an ally. That way it would also help with adrenaline generation on X/Warhorn in addition to staff. Fun fact, the 3rd hit of the Dagger auto-chain applies area might.

And it should be said, such an effect should either be added to a trait we're already using, or on something that already doesn't have anything support-relevant in its column. DO NOT make it compete with essential traits like Soldier's Comfort or Vigorous Shouts.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

23 minutes ago, HeliosMagi.9867 said:

I think an even better solution would be a trait that grants adrenaline upon granting a boon to an ally. That way it would also help with adrenaline generation on X/Warhorn in addition to staff. Fun fact, the 3rd hit of the Dagger auto-chain applies area might.

And it should be said, such an effect should either be added to a trait we're already using, or on something that already doesn't have anything support-relevant in its column. DO NOT make it compete with essential traits like Soldier's Comfort or Vigorous Shouts.

I'm thinking as a replacement for Empowered.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

12 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'm thinking as a replacement for Empowered.

The problem with any option leaving tactics is the fact that it will then create uneccesary competition between Discipline traits. Warrior's Sprint has a dmg increaase for swiftness, albeit small. Then we got DotE, then Burst Mastery. Removing Stalwart Focus and putting it in Tactics will def make it compete with major healing/support traits and if it does replace a minor, then some tactics dps builds (roamers mostly and core) will take a hit. Is it really that big of an issue? Probably not, but they would still have to put another support trait in Stalwart Focus' spot cause if they don't, warrior's sprint and it's bonus will only benefit roamers.

Idk seems like discipline and tactics need to be cleared up and it's long overdue. Nothing that we don't already know ig.

[Max Out.5732]

3 hours ago, DarkLancer.1902 said:

Who came up with this? The Warrior is a profession designed around the concept that it doesn't use magic & doesn't need to. Yet here we are, giving the Warrior a MAGIC HEALING STICK. The kit does NOT jive with the Warrior concept, and, depending on how much of a rules-lawyer you are, could even be said to break the game's lore.

Let's just forget the idea about giving warrior a support option so its still the most ignored class for any party (PUG) content like for most of the past 11 years*.

*Excluding times when we had decent Banner Heal (when we could wield them or where unique mechanic) or Shout Heal (before EoD and with Bladesworn). Warrior was always nerfed as soon it had a good build with support option...

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

26 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

The problem with any option leaving tactics is the fact that it will then create uneccesary competition between Discipline traits. Warrior's Sprint has a dmg increaase for swiftness, albeit small. Then we got DotE, then Burst Mastery. Removing Stalwart Focus and putting it in Tactics will def make it compete with major healing/support traits and if it does replace a minor, then some tactics dps builds (roamers mostly and core) will take a hit. Is it really that big of an issue? Probably not, but they would still have to put another support trait in Stalwart Focus' spot cause if they don't, warrior's sprint and it's bonus will only benefit roamers.

Idk seems like discipline and tactics need to be cleared up and it's long overdue. Nothing that we don't already know ig.

Then bake the adrenaline gain into staff directly.