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Expanded Weapon Proficiencies Beta Feedback: Elementalist


Rubi Bayer.8493

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I think thief axes could be improved in two ways. 

1. Reduce the cast time of 2 down to half second cast. It's way too clunky without quickness, especially for a skill that you need to cast multiple times to build up your 3 skill's damage. The 3 skill could also stand to have an initiative cost reduction or refund with certain axe hit count, since it's useless without any axe stacks and functions off of other resources too. Axe 3 isn't a standalone skill, so don't make it cost as much initiative as one, yeah? 

2. The axe ammo is a cool idea but a problematic iteration. Making them linger in the actual world just opens the weapon up to a horrific slew of positioning, range, and mobility problems. Most prominently, going in close to get all three hits of your axe 2 to land makes them all linger super far away, creating problems for your 3 skill's responsiveness and ability to hit. I think a better way of going about this axe ammo mechanic is to take a page from the mesmer book: make the axes float around YOU instead, akin to virtuoso, and when you cast your 3 skill, summon them around your target to strike inwards after a slight delay, akin to mirage axe ambush skill. This would go MILES in making the weapon more practical and consistent. 

I like the thief axe in concept, it's very interesting. If there was any other thing I'd change, I'd probably give the axes a wider hitbox, to give the weapon a slight cleave identity like other axe iterations in the game (e.g. ranger axes, firebrand axe, mirage axe). 

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1 hour ago, FalsePromises.6398 said:

I think thief axes could be improved in two ways. 

1. Reduce the cast time of 2 down to half second cast. It's way too clunky without quickness, especially for a skill that you need to cast multiple times to build up your 3 skill's damage. The 3 skill could also stand to have an initiative cost reduction or refund with certain axe hit count, since it's useless without any axe stacks and functions off of other resources too. Axe 3 isn't a standalone skill, so don't make it cost as much initiative as one, yeah? 

2. The axe ammo is a cool idea but a problematic iteration. Making them linger in the actual world just opens the weapon up to a horrific slew of positioning, range, and mobility problems. Most prominently, going in close to get all three hits of your axe 2 to land makes them all linger super far away, creating problems for your 3 skill's responsiveness and ability to hit. I think a better way of going about this axe ammo mechanic is to take a page from the mesmer book: make the axes float around YOU instead, akin to virtuoso, and when you cast your 3 skill, summon them around your target to strike inwards after a slight delay, akin to mirage axe ambush skill. This would go MILES in making the weapon more practical and consistent. 

I like the thief axe in concept, it's very interesting. If there was any other thing I'd change, I'd probably give the axes a wider hitbox, to give the weapon a slight cleave identity like other axe iterations in the game (e.g. ranger axes, firebrand axe, mirage axe). 

Umm why are you posting this in the Ele pistol section and not in the actual thief section.....

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Love how every skills feels (with the exception of water 2 wich feels too generic)
The mechanics are simples yet add an amazing depth to the gameplay

My main problem it that i think this weapon is amazing with quip yet instead of fireballs i shoot confetti, now i need an option to turn off unique projectiles from weapons

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22 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

I will be honest: The weapon to me feels so straightforward that it does not feel very fun or unique. Many of its skills just give me a "meh" feeling where I would love to have a feeling of "yeah, awesome!" if that makes sense.  When GW2 launched, I remember devs talking disgusted about the weapon skill design that was rampant during that time: 'you swing a sword. you swing a sword again'. Yet I cannot help but getting this feeling from pistol in a way: "I shoot a bullet. I shoot another one. I shoot one again". And the bullet mechanic unfortunately does not seem to spice things up as much as I would have hoped. I often don't even notice I am using it as a mechanic as I cycle my 2-3 2-3 3-2 etc on the pistols. It's something you'd do no matter if there would be a bullet mechanic or not, it does not define your playstyle if that makes sense, like it is more of an afterthought.

Pretty much. It's basically just another rotation, except that you need to go 2-3 3-2 etc for damage and switch to the reverse for defence, and the reverse for defence. And since it's not the same for every attunement, you need to remember which it is for each attunement. Meanwhile, that seems to be pretty much all they're relying on to give pistol a 'wow' factor. Engineer pistols, with four non-autoattack skills including a chain lightning shot, flame blast, pool of goop that seems to be acidic goop - still feels like it's doing more than elementalist is achieving with eight (and ignoring autos is generous to elementalist, keeping in mind that making autos more interesting than 'projectile plus condition' is certainly possible). Granted, elementalist gets an offhand too, but the mainhand shouldn't rely that much on the offhand.

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5 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Pretty much. It's basically just another rotation, except that you need to go 2-3 3-2 etc for damage and switch to the reverse for defence, and the reverse for defence. And since it's not the same for every attunement, you need to remember which it is for each attunement. Meanwhile, that seems to be pretty much all they're relying on to give pistol a 'wow' factor. Engineer pistols, with four non-autoattack skills including a chain lightning shot, flame blast, pool of goop that seems to be acidic goop - still feels like it's doing more than elementalist is achieving with eight (and ignoring autos is generous to elementalist, keeping in mind that making autos more interesting than 'projectile plus condition' is certainly possible). Granted, elementalist gets an offhand too, but the mainhand shouldn't rely that much on the offhand.

Preach

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1 hour ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

I really think this weapon would be SO GOOD if it removed the auto attack and was made into an offhand. We just don't have a spammy ranged offhand for anything. Dagger/Pistol or Sword/Pistol would feel so different than anything ele can do right now.

I agree with this. It really wouldn't overlap at all with any offhand that ele has. Ele has no pure condi offhand, or even a real ranged one for that matter.

Focus is ranged but barely has any attacks on it, with one of them being melee anyway. Warhorn has some very weird hybrid ranges, with some melee, mid-range and ranged moves. Dagger is melee. Let's just get what we lack, especially if the implementation is easier than a mainland that has autos and 6 dual skills.

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With all respect...Not fluid at all....so so slow...nothing special about it.  Too boring to even bother and no damage.  If cast and recharge times were faster and if their was something else we can use for secondary like another pistol of course would help.  It just feels like theirs nothing special about it.  Extra aoe damage, secondary effects, as well as sounds and flare is all needed.  The specializations dont really work well with it either.  Was trying to autotarget myself with Catalyst spheres so can just double click them at feet and speed things up but could not find a way.  The whole thing just needs alot of work.  Main: Elementalist

 

Thanks guys  <3

Edited by Risensoul Shockwave.1564
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19 hours ago, Redfeather.6401 said:

I really think this weapon would be SO GOOD if it removed the auto attack and was made into an offhand. We just don't have a spammy ranged offhand for anything. Dagger/Pistol or Sword/Pistol would feel so different than anything ele can do right now.

True. I really think it would have been better to just give ele an offhand weapon. Only 8 abilities for anet to come up with instead of all the generic crap we got in the mainhand now.

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I’ve got an excellent feeling with the main hand pistol on elem. A bit piano-like (wich i like) and is fun to use. The bullet mechanic is also cool and gives a whole lot of versatility !

Feedbacks i can give :

Fire :

Spell 1) Interesting, but maybe we can add an AoE damage on impact, a cone shape or a circle shape arround the main target, something like fire staff 3. It would make the auto a bit more pleasant to use. 

Spell 2) Good spell that does its job on condition buff. The bounce effect seems a bit too random, i tested it on the golem pack in sPvP lobby and i mostly hit 2 targets (or 3) instead of the 4 possible. Visually it’s quite identical to the auto. Maybe it would be good to add a burnt effect on the ground, like on the wake of the bullet ? Something similar to the phoenix on fire scepter would help ? 

Spell 3) I really like the idea of the explosion. But i don’t understand the buffed effect, why a fire aura ? A condi elem will probably run the fire trait wich already gives a fire aura. And if he plays with a focus he will get even more fire auras. Maybe we can do something a bit more damage oriented ? Something like a small lava fountain under the fragments or something like the staff 2 on earth, a delayed fire explosion ?

 

Water :

What’s surprising this time is the bleeding, wich was mostly on earth !

Spell 1) A good spell that has an interesting healing mechanic. What would make it even more interesting is a splash healing arround the target. Visually appealing too.

Spell 2) Classic unload, the buffed effect is interesting too. It differs from the auto because it’s on the ice thematic wich is cool !

Spell 3) A really intersting spell and the buffed effect is also really good ! The speed boost is cool but why not directly give the "speed" boon ? It would combine better with some elems traits. We could also give speed and increase the movement speed a bit more on the ice area ?

 

Air :

  Spell 1) Really cool but maybe giving it a bounce similar to the auto from staff in air would make it even better ? Visually a bit too big, reducing a bit its size would help.

 

Spell 2) A good utilitary spell with a really interesting buffed effect that allows a good rotation with other spells. Visually a bit too similar to the auto. I think changing it to make it closer to what engi’s pistol 3 looks like would help differenciate it ? Or maybe something similar to the "shocking bolt" from the superior air elemental ?

 

Spell 3) I really like the idea and the buffed effect is pretty strong. The aegis is also very usefull. The visual for the shot is also great because it differs from the rest of the air pistol skills. The tooltip is a bit confusing, at the beginning i thought the shot would be automatic but it’s not (and it’s great). But the dash itself is quite slow, something closer to Lucian’s E from League of Legends would make it even more pleaseant. Also adding an effect or an indication on the spell to know the duration left for the shot or the second dash would really improve the spell.

Something a lot of people said is that air element lacks some condis, and it’s something reccurent. I don’t feel like it’s a real problem but maybe replacing the vulnerability by confusion would make it more interesting. Maybe by using the air bullet, or after a set number os stacks on the target.   

Earth :

 

Spell 1) Interesting, could pierce in a straight line to better correspond to the name. Visually invisible. We could take inspiration from the sharp stones from our dagger 5 (on earth) or the staff auto on earth to make it a bit more visible ?

 

Spell 2) A star shaped explosion that is quite fun, it also differs visually from the auto. Buffed version is also great !

 

Spell 3) Intersting concept, the barrier is also a great idea. Maybe we could scale the barrier with the bleeding on target ? But i don’t know if it would be too overpowered, thought we could cap it to a max value. Also visually the boulder is huge compared to our poor little pistol. Maybe reducing a bit its size and adding an effect on the ground would make it a bit less comically large and still different from the spell 2 and the auto. 

Weaver :

Fire/Water : Classic but still interesting. I think we could make it even more interesting by going more on the "steam" theme maybe ? And maybe not bullets but maybe a steam column ?

Fire /Air : Also interesting, the base or buffed versions. And visually appealing too, maybe we could take inspiration from it for our second fire spell on pistol ?

Fire /Earth : Really cool, a bit more of the "magma" theme would make it even better in my opinion. Maybe a ground visual effect or on the target ?

Water/Air : Nothing to say, it’s a good mobility spell, it’s fluid, i like it.

Water/Earth : Quite similar to the same combo with the sword, maybe we could change its theme to be more on the "crytal" side of things ? Or maybe a bit more muddy-like effect ? It would make it even more unique.

Air/Earth :  The concept is great, the buff by using bullets is great. But i think we could make it have even more impact, closer to the staff version of the same combo. Maybe something more "spear" shaped would make it cooler, and we could also take some of the idea from the gardian pistol 5, like it being charge based ?  

Elemental unload :

I think its concept is great, but the reward falls a bit behind. We should add something more than a simple aura to compensate ? Maybe an effect a bit more unique to the atunned element we’re in, or maybe re-charging the elemental bullets over time ? I don’t really know. Visually i think it should be more grandiose, maybe a central bullet with the other ones spiraling arround ?

Misc :

Adding projectile combos to more of our spells would greatly help including it in our kits. For now we only have water 2 (if i remember correctly). And it’s sad to have a pistol that doesn’t combo with its bullets. Maybe add it on some autos ? Or on most second or third spells ?

UI :

We really need an indicator above our elements. Or maybe above our utility bar (but with all the boons available it would be quite hard to follow). By just having Aurora active it’s hard to visually track our bullets. It will be harder on some other contents without a precise indicator.

 

PS : I know the visuals are not definitive (that’s why it’s a beta) but i hope we can give even more charm to this weapon that i really liked and has a great potential !

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On 12/3/2023 at 4:13 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Pretty much. It's basically just another rotation, except that you need to go 2-3 3-2 etc for damage and switch to the reverse for defence, and the reverse for defence. And since it's not the same for every attunement, you need to remember which it is for each attunement.  <snip>

(Emphasis mine).

Is that true? It's not just 2-3 for the extra damage version for each attunement? That alone will kill this weapon for me. I need less things to remember regarding playing Elementalist Piano, not more.

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I've seen that the Pistol is pretty capable of good damage by just camping Fire which is honestly a good thing as Hammer has really exhausted the spam attunement swap thing. I feel like with a weapon like this, especially when dedicated to condi only, you should just focus on Fire and Water for pure DPS (deadly ice bullets are a pretty popular concept more-so than earth/air bullets, ditch water healing for once for one weapon) and just leave Air and Earth for utility only.

Fire and Water fulla heavy burns and bleeds, and Air loaded with movement skills (something better than current) and Earth with CC and stronger Defensive things and actually make them interesting/unique looking. The current way of obtaining CC with Air is weird by forcing a dash first.

It's already kind of like that in concept but needs to go deeper with very distinct and simple roles for each Element. 

Edited by Doggie.3184
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For me, the gun turned out to be the biggest disappointment!

  • Why did you steal the hammer mechanics, come up with something else? You stole the Grand Finale from the hammer and it is useless in the pistol.
  • Horribly slow bullets, in some elements they have no Physical Projectile.
  • Why doesn't the lightning element have condition damage, it won't be used?
  • No buffs for yourself from weapons!
  • There is practically no damage in the area.
  • Where are the chains of actions for skill 1?
  • It's difficult to keep track of your accumulated bullets. And add a differentiated energy scale to the catalyst!

We need a second hand weapon to replace the horn that everyone uses. I was expecting a bow or a greatsword, not this horribly made weapon.

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Don't know if anyone noticed but why does water skill 3 have the most interaction than all the other skills. You can skate on it and if you consume the bullet, it shatters but none of the other skills interact in such a way other than giving extra conditions or some sort of passive. 

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12 hours ago, ubaer.8176 said:

(Emphasis mine).

Is that true? It's not just 2-3 for the extra damage version for each attunement? That alone will kill this weapon for me. I need less things to remember regarding playing Elementalist Piano, not more.

There's one that is 3-2 for damage - water, IIRC. It's probably still not that hard to keep track of, but it is one more complication that adds just a bit more to the mental overhead.

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Even if I think that elementalist using a pistol is stupid and doesn't fit the profession's theme, here are my thoughts on the weapon:

Scorching Shot (pistol 1 fire): no changes needed.
Raging Ricochet (pistol 2 fire): reduce the duration on the 5% condition damage from 10 to 8 seconds in PvE and from 10 to 5 seconds in PvP/WvW.
Searing Salvo (pistol 3 fire): make it a blast finisher.

Soothing Splash (pistol 1 water): should heal both the elementalist and teammates for each condition on the enemy. 
Friggid Flurry (pistol 2 water): replace the bleeding with condition cleansing and add the ice bullet icon in the tooltip.
Glacial Shot (pistol 3 water): no changes needed.

Electric Exposure (pistol 1 air): no changes needed.
Dazing Discharge (pistol 2 air): reduce the daze duration from 1.5 to 1 second.
Aerial Agility (pistol 3 air): change it so it fires an enemy on the first dash and if you hit an enemy, you can dash and shoot again and make it remove immobilize, cripple and chill when you dash without an air bullet.

Piercing Pebble (pistol 1 earth): no changes needed.
Shattering Stone (pistol 2 earth): increase the bleed stacks from 1 to 3 when using an earth bullet.
Boulder Blast (pistol 3 earth): remove the immobilize, make it apply barrier without an earth bullet and have it knockdown an enemy if you use an earth bullet.

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7 hours ago, Josif.2015 said:

Even if I think that elementalist using a pistol is stupid and doesn't fit the profession's theme, here are my thoughts on the weapon:

Scorching Shot (pistol 1 fire): no changes needed.
Raging Ricochet (pistol 2 fire): reduce the duration on the 5% condition damage from 10 to 8 seconds in PvE and from 10 to 5 seconds in PvP/WvW.
Searing Salvo (pistol 3 fire): make it a blast finisher.

Soothing Splash (pistol 1 water): should heal both the elementalist and teammates for each condition on the enemy. 
Friggid Flurry (pistol 2 water): replace the bleeding with condition cleansing and add the ice bullet icon in the tooltip.
Glacial Shot (pistol 3 water): no changes needed.

Electric Exposure (pistol 1 air): no changes needed.
Dazing Discharge (pistol 2 air): reduce the daze duration from 1.5 to 1 second.
Aerial Agility (pistol 3 air): change it so it fires an enemy on the first dash and if you hit an enemy, you can dash and shoot again and make it remove immobilize, cripple and chill when you dash without an air bullet.

Piercing Pebble (pistol 1 earth): no changes needed.
Shattering Stone (pistol 2 earth): increase the bleed stacks from 1 to 3 when using an earth bullet.
Boulder Blast (pistol 3 earth): remove the immobilize, make it apply barrier without an earth bullet and have it knockdown an enemy if you use an earth bullet.

You really don't want people using pistol I guess?

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Wanted to wait for the beta to finish, and then I got sidetracked but I'll post my thoughts.

Admittedly, like many, I was looking forward to a bow weapon but admittedly I just wanted to see something ranged and I have no problem with the aesthetic of an elemental pistol.  The weapon does feel slow, but as I played around with the skills I found  them quite underwhelming in Lion's Arch.  Once I actually got out into the field I found them kind of fun to use though, especially after I started learning what to do.  Though, with elementalist I always like the idea of the combo fields and I really didn't find there were a lot of options with the pistol.  As a Catalyst you can make your own fields, but then there were only the two finishers.  I get that you don't want everything to be a finisher, but to make use of it properly I found I needed to be a Catalyst dropping jade sphere and use Arcane Blast for the finisher.  Having just the leap on air 3 and projectile finisher on earth 3 seems a little stingy.  There are, of course, options for the off hand, but still limited.

I think cycling through all the attunements to get the final shot seems a bit unlikely - though you can pretty easily prep it when running to the next mob.  I think changing attunements is easier with the Weaver though because of the reduced cooldown.  I would probably suggest just removing it entirely.  It seems like a gimmick, and probably would suit something better for an elite specialization, not a weapon.  The other issue is the bullets, as people have said.  Very hard to see with everything going on, especially in a large event, WVW, or mostly anything really.  Earth bullet is very hard to see as it's so dull, blending in with the background.  The art looks fine, but I think something as a buff/debuff on your list would make it easier to follow.  Small bug, which I'm sure people are aware of that you lose your elemental bullet when you mount, at least I'm presuming that's not suppose to happen.

I've always found that Elementalist elite specs are tied to being melee - Weaver is clearly melee focused, Tempest needs to be close to use Overloads, and there is not a lot of range with the spheres for Catalyst.  I'm looking forward to hopefully having a better option to stay at range.  If there were more Finishers it would be easier to combo with the jade spheres, fields left from overloads, etc.  As others have suggested, love the fact water is not necessarily all about healing.  And I personally would rather see the weapon as a hybrid weapon, but that's the style I prefer about playing an Elementalist - I love the flexibility and bouncing between attunements and dropping combos. and really looking forward to more ranged options.

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On 12/5/2023 at 7:31 PM, Anthony.8056 said:

Don't know if anyone noticed but why does water skill 3 have the most interaction than all the other skills. You can skate on it and if you consume the bullet, it shatters but none of the other skills interact in such a way other than giving extra conditions or some sort of passive. 

Let water have *one* weapon it's the coolest element, I'm tired of Fire getting all the goodies. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I know this is super late to be posting to this thread but figured it’s better late than never to share an impression of the beta ele pistol. Before getting into my thoughts on the weapon’s performance, I’m going to start by saying I really enjoy the pistol as a main-hand weapon option for Elementalists. The style of this weapon type is a fun addition to the traditional (fire)wizard’s arsenal. That said, I found it performs well when it comes to dealing damage.

 However, I do think there are a few things that would be nice improvements:

 

  •          It needs a piercing effect or multi-target hit on the auto-attacks.

The scepter already can hit multiple targets with its auto attacks in Fire and Air. Piercing would be new on an Elementalist weapon. I can imagine that this would have Elementalist players prioritizing mobility to line up shots for the most impact.

 

  •         It needs more access to combo finishers.

It would be great to see these on the 1 or 2 skills so we don’t lose those while swapping attunements on Weaver. The Elementalist’s sword has these perfectly placed on the 2 skills of Fire, Air, and Earth. To not copy designs between the class weapons, perhaps finishers on auto attacks? One possibility is to make this work like the Mesmer Dagger with a percentage to trigger a finisher. Given that finishers are a key part of Catalyst’s design maybe this should be a 30-50% chance to trigger if that’s the only source of them? Or go all out and put finishers on both the 1 and 2 attacks like Necromancer’s pistol.

 

  •        Give it more ways to generate elemental bullets.

Allow us to generate elemental bullets with our auto-attacks. This would allow elementalists to be more reactive in how they use their elemental bullets. Also it could make it easier to stack these to be used for the Elemental Unload ability. It was difficult to trigger that unique attack as the bullets were often used with weapon skills. Having the auto-attacks generate the ammo for this shot would let us capitalize on all the new mechanics that the pistol brings.

 

  •         The Air attunement didn’t feel as though it fit with the rest of the weapon.

I don't have anything new to contribute here, many people have already said this and I agree: the idea of adding condition damage here would be great. Although I like that the attunement inflicts vulnerability and wouldn’t want to trade those two things.  

 

  •         The Air 2 ammo skill is ok, but a little bland.

Reduction on weapon cooldowns is not bad, but something flashier like a knock-back effect would be more fun. If it functioned similar to the knock back on Mesmer’s greatsword 5 skill that would be a very useful ability for keeping opponents at a distance so the Elementalist can make good use of the pistol’s range.

 

  •        The Air 3 ammo skill was the biggest thing I really disliked about the weapon.

That dash just felt slow and had very poor range. It seemed barely better than a dodge, but slower and more difficult to access. If the dash effect on the Air 3 skill was replaced with swiftness that would allow the elementalist more freedom to stay mobile and capitalize on the weapon’s range. Swiftness instead of a dash would also play into several Weaver traits.

Another idea for an Air bullet skill which would be unique for Elementalists could be a boon strip effect. Being electrocuted would break anyone’s concentration, and an opponent losing their boons could make sense in that context.

 

  •         The barrier that is granted by the bullet effect on Earth skill 3 could benefit from a tune-up.  

That amount of barrier just doesn’t feel like it’s enough to warrant the ‘greater damage and defense’ that the pistol is being presented as offering. Adding Protection could give the barrier a bit more value, and it would also synergize with the Tempest trait Hardy Conduit.

Aside from the barrier effect being a little lack-luster, the Earth attunement on the pistol is great. I particularly like the slow and the immobilize effects for the benefit of keeping opponents at range as much as possible.

 

For context, I tested the pistol on the golem in Lions Arch and out in the open world. The damage numbers I was seeing on the golem were good, and I compared that to the performance of a scepter on the same character. The two weapons pulled off similar numbers which I think is a good sign.

I went to the different expansion zones and experimented solo on any random events I could find. It didn’t disappoint, the damage from the pistol was good. However without a multi-hitting auto-attack I found I was always backing away from groups of enemies simply because there wasn’t enough AoE to burst down multiple targets. I’m eager to see what changes are made to the pistol for release, and am especially hopeful to be able to consistently put the Elemental Unload attack to use because it (and the floating elemental bullets) looks really cool.

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