What if I told you there is an actual "I Win" combo in this game that makes it pointless for the target to have a keyboard? 🧪🐤💀

[Nanogrid.7283]

Hello, am I in the right place?

Is this the place where I vote for "please make polymorph permanent if, and only if, targeting thieves" ?

Their presentation would finally correlate with the way they play ... for all eternity.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Nanogrid.7283

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

On 12/19/2023 at 5:34 PM, Kuya.6495 said:

Engineer and thieves aside, moa is a pretty unfun skill to be on the receiving end of and even more so when it's used by a stealthed enemy so there was never a chance to counter it.

If the enemy has stealth and moa, there is no counter play to be had except, hope the enemy is so bad he fails to capitalize on the moa.

Moa is indeed unfun to be on the receiving end of.  But to be clear, I don't really have an issue with Moa on its own.  It's a tool, albeit a powerful one.  Alone, it still allows counterplay.  I have probably something like a 75% survival rate after getting only Moa'd, unless it's a coordinated group using Moa to gank.  The specific issue this topic is about is the unhealthy interplay between CC + Moa, because that truly leaves you with nothing you can do, no matter how many stunbreaks you may have available.  In the initial post, I suggested that Moa should reset (auto-stunbreak) any current CCs.  But if that's too generous, I agreed with Grimm's idea that at least having a stun break in the Moa skill bar would give players a chance to counter this combo.

22 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Not really.  It's this topic because in your video you are essentially perma-CC'd and that's why this combo was so effective against you.

Yes or no: In the clip shown, once CC'd + Moa'd, was there any skill bar input available despite having three stunbreaks?  Answer: No.

Yes or no: In any of the daze-spam-ele, knockdown-spam-warrior, or basilisk-venom-thief engagements someone described, is the entire skillbar locked out if you have stunbreaks off cooldown?  Answer: No.

These are not the same.  Once Moa'd, it did not matter whether I had 0 stunbreaks in my skillbar or 20.  That was truly "perma-CC," for at least 3 seconds straight.  Whereas in the CC-spam situations described, you can break CC and actually do something, whether it be to mitigate what comes next, fight back, or run.  The key difference is you can do something.  More on this below.

18 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

99 out 100 times I’m standing there completely unable to do anything with all skills spinning for 2-10s straight it’s not moa. It can be just one ele or something knocking/dazing me down repeatedly. Often several.

That is happening because you didn't have enough stun breaks, or after using them, you didn't dodge, block, invuln, blind, reflect, port, or interrupt the CC-spammer with a CC of your own.  Or you stuck around indulging such a filthy build while being ill-equipped to do so.  Or if this was a group situation, your supports weren't giving you enough stab and/or stunbreaks/cleanses, or you were out of position.  At every moment in this engagement, there was something you could do, or should have done, unless you created your own "CC + Moa situation" by burning through any stunbreaks you had without capitalizing on them to either fight or flee.  The point is you had options.

The fact we can even talk about all the possible things you could do should tell you it's not the same as here.  CC + Moa doesn't give a fig what spec or build you are, or what's in your skill bar.  You get truly perma-CC'd for at least 3 seconds and you can't do a single thing about it.

18 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

What you are saying is basically that a roamer is just as problematic as a boonball when it comes to the strength of boonballs. I mean yeah you can have all the boons solo, I guess.

What I am saying, ad nauseum, is that CC + Moa is unhealthy because it totally deprives you of any ability to interact, no matter what your build or skillbar.  Completely and totally.  Might as well not own a keyboard, or just Alt + F4 rather than lie on your back helpless for 3 seconds.

Even in the CC-spam scenarios people keep trying to compare to, you can actually do something to influence the outcome.  How is that not obvious?

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 12/14/2023 at 4:51 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Last time I pulled a thief with magnet he teleported mid pull, teleported again and instantly went OOC to mount up.

Oh so limited the weaklings are. 

🥸

 

There are only four scenarios where this holds, and all of them assume you pulled from literal max range:

- He reacted extremely quickly to target SS to 1200 and burned half or more of his utility bar to deal with one pull AND got lucky having had enemies placed perfectly for ISig to let him OOC.

- You pulled during his very-distantly-buffered re-teleport like IR or ShR and weren't paying attention to his status bar, which means you had literally every means to not let him escape by waiting a few seconds at the most.  IR for these types of double recasts is generally in the < 1s remaining area and he had to be running literally straight at you for quite a distance  All thief returns are bounded with a max range.  A literal core necro could have done this with SWalk, and could have done it in *gasp* one teleport.

- You're not running superspeed on engineer if one of such teleports was based on shortbow, which says a lot.  IA cast time and travel delay should let you maintain the status as generally this requires two casts to outpace.  Unless he also had superspeed, which means he committed more resources or again, you weren't paying attention to what he was doing.

- You're either lying or you simply don't realize he burned way more resources than two skills.

As Chaba pointed out, Engi is and has been a decent counter to thief for quite some time based on the resource battle between them (pretty much since the backstab nerfs), and what usually results in an engineer using a respectable build by a respectable player being able to stat-check thief as the resource war is eventually won.  So rather than committing to a losing fight, the dude ran because of the limitations the class has when getting magneted, despite your sarcasm (the irony).

Don't get me wrong - even as a former thief I dislike how much of thief's power budget is in its disengage potential as well, and how easy it *can* be to pull off against many classes/loadouts, especially in conjunction with stealth - but your statement here is pretty damned disingenuous.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

 

There are only four scenarios where this holds, and all of them assume you pulled from literal max range:

- He reacted extremely quickly to target SS to 1200 and burned half or more of his utility bar to deal with one pull AND got lucky having had enemies placed perfectly for ISig to let him OOC.

- You pulled during his very-distantly-buffered re-teleport like IR or ShR and weren't paying attention to his status bar, which means you had literally every means to not let him escape by waiting a few seconds at the most.  IR for these types of double recasts is generally in the < 1s remaining area and he had to be running literally straight at you for quite a distance  All thief returns are bounded with a max range.  A literal core necro could have done this with SWalk, and could have done it in *gasp* one teleport.

- You're not running superspeed on engineer if one of such teleports was based on shortbow, which says a lot.  IA cast time and travel delay should let you maintain the status as generally this requires two casts to outpace.  Unless he also had superspeed, which means he committed more resources or again, you weren't paying attention to what he was doing.

- You're either lying or you simply don't realize he burned way more resources than two skills.

As Chaba pointed out, Engi is and has been a decent counter to thief for quite some time based on the resource battle between them (pretty much since the backstab nerfs), and what usually results in an engineer using a respectable build by a respectable player being able to stat-check thief as the resource war is eventually won.  So rather than committing to a losing fight, the dude ran because of the limitations the class has when getting magneted, despite your sarcasm (the irony).

Don't get me wrong - even as a former thief I dislike how much of thief's power budget is in its disengage potential as well, and how easy it *can* be to pull off against many classes/loadouts, especially in conjunction with stealth - but your statement here is pretty damned disingenuous.

lol you make it sound like magic when nearly every thief run shadowstep and port mid CC.

[Chaba.5410]

7 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Yes or no: In the clip shown, once CC'd + Moa'd, was there any skill bar input available despite having three stunbreaks?  Answer: No.

Yes or no: In any of the daze-spam-ele, knockdown-spam-warrior, or basilisk-venom-thief engagements someone described, is the entire skillbar locked out if you have stunbreaks off cooldown?  Answer: No.

These are not the same.  Once Moa'd, it did not matter whether I had 0 stunbreaks in my skillbar or 20.  That was truly "perma-CC," for at least 3 seconds straight.

You didn't address what I wrote at all.

7 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Whereas in the CC-spam situations described, you can break CC and actually do something,

What does this matter when you completely ignored the gist of my response?

[kiranslee.4829]

On 12/10/2023 at 2:17 PM, Dawdler.8521 said:

When an engineer can trigger a thief so hard they need a thread, they’ve won the game.

So much this, thank you.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Moa is a buff.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 12/21/2023 at 2:08 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

lol you make it sound like magic when nearly every thief run shadowstep and port mid CC.

If you get OOC'ed by a single shadow step+return you've made a massive misplay somewhere lol.

[Dawdler.8521]

8 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

If you get OOC'ed by a single shadow step+return you've made a massive misplay somewhere lol.

Because thieves having the mobility to go OOC is unheard of magic as well.

[KrHome.1920]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:59 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Moa is a buff.

Yes, best thing you can do to a core necro to give him a chance to escape the fight.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:33 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

You didn't address what I wrote at all.

That you may not like or agree with what I wrote does not mean you were not addressed.

On 12/21/2023 at 1:33 AM, Chaba.5410 said:

What does this matter when you completely ignored the gist of my response?

Feel free to restate the gist if you feel it was so terribly ignored.  For your convenience I quoted your entire response below.  There isn't a whole lot to it:

On 12/19/2023 at 6:43 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

Not really.  It's this topic because in your video you are essentially perma-CC'd and that's why this combo was so effective against you.  If the brief CC-immunity that "some" have suggested were implemented, you would have been able to escape even in moa form.

As I read it, you're trying really hard to compare CC + Moa (a truly perma-CC that locks out the entire skill bar) to CC-spam builds (like ones Medieval and Dawdler described) which do not lock out stun breaks.  On its face, that's a faulty comparison.  I explained this in more detail but somehow that "completely ignored the gist" of your response.  At most, perhaps I missed your point.

As for your last sentence about hypothetical CC-immunity, that's kind of a "Captain Obvious" restatement of a suggestion I mentioned and already agreed with.  So it didn't seem to need addressing.

[Chaba.5410]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:15 PM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Any form of "perma-CC" is certainly anti-fun and a discussion for another topic.  Some have suggested brief CC-immunity/stability following use of stunbreaks, or a diminishing returns system (decreasing duration) to discourage overuse of CC on the same target.

Allow me to requote your post so you have a better understanding of what my response to it was.

4 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

As I read it, you're trying really hard to compare CC + Moa (a truly perma-CC that locks out the entire skill bar) to CC-spam builds

Only, I didn't make that comparison at all.   I was responding to your post about any form of perma-CC.

4 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Feel free to restate the gist if you feel it was so terribly ignored.

The issue is I have NO IDEA why you are quoting me in your post about comparing builds.  I don't care about whatever comparison you're trying to make. You claim that perma-CC is a different topic.  You were literally perma-CC'd in your video.  It's THIS topic.  Don't you see the daze on your bar after the magnet pull?

Edited December 27, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

On 12/26/2023 at 6:40 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

The issue is I have NO IDEA why you are quoting me in your post about comparing builds.  I don't care about whatever comparison you're trying to make.

Maybe because you quoted me replying to MedievalThings.5417 who was making the comparison to "perma-CC" builds?  Maybe that's why?

And you seemed to be saying that the (true) perma-CC in this topic is the same as the ones Medieval (and Dawdler) brought up?  If you weren't, then, it wasn't clear.

On 12/26/2023 at 6:40 PM, Chaba.5410 said:

You claim that perma-CC is a different topic.  You were literally perma-CC'd in your video.  It's THIS topic.  Don't you see the daze on your bar after the magnet pull?

No. I'm saying for the umpteenth time that CC + Moa is true perma-CC in that it locks out the entire skillbar including stun breaks.  Unlike the "perma-CC" scenarios others were describing, where you can actually do something.

If you're getting bent discussing this (as suggested by your use of all caps), feel free to drop a confused face and move on.  Won't bother me one bit. 🙂

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

No. I'm saying for the umpteenth time that CC + Moa is true perma-CC in that it locks out the entire skillbar including stun breaks.  Unlike the "perma-CC" scenarios others were describing, where you can actually do something.

Last I checked moa replaces your skill bar with other skills (one of which is an evade which combined with a dodge last about as long as the entire moa duration, unless you're a mesmer with double the moa duration of an engineer). 

Daze in comparison make you unable to use any skills. I suggest you look up how many classes got multiple skills with several seconds of daze on far lower cd than moa.

[Triptaminas.4789]

 

 

This is how peak endgame looks like, u cant convince me otherwise. 

I want to be like lipton when i grow up, just endless fun and giggles, its beautiful that this game allows this to happen, u should be proud u playn with us OP, and how much effort/skill is put into doing some of the stuff that makes u angry. 

But anger makes u stronger, anger will push u forward, and next thing u know, u running with x elixir at belt or wearing minstrel daredevil and getting chased by 40 man blob in ebg for 4 hours straight 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Triptaminas.4789

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

32 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Last I checked moa replaces your skill bar with other skills (one of which is an evade which combined with a dodge last about as long as the entire moa duration, unless you're a mesmer with double the moa duration of an engineer).

Imagine being allowed to dodge once moa’d in the clip.

32 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Daze in comparison make you unable to use any skills. I suggest you look up how many classes got multiple skills with several seconds of daze on far lower cd than moa.

Yet all those dazes can be stun broken. It’s then up to you what you do next. With CC + Moa, you don’t even get that chance.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

1 hour ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

 

 

This is how peak endgame looks like, u cant convince me otherwise. 

I want to be like lipton when i grow up, just endless fun and giggles, its beautiful that this game allows this to happen, u should be proud u playn with us OP, and how much effort/skill is put into doing some of the stuff that makes u angry. 

But anger makes u stronger, anger will push u forward, and next thing u know, u running with x elixir at belt or wearing minstrel daredevil and getting chased by 40 man blob in ebg for 4 hours straight 

So what you're saying is... it's really not as impossible to pull off as some would have us believe. 😄

On 12/12/2023 at 7:13 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

90% of the magnet pulls end up one of 3 ways:

- The target gets pulled and warps behind you making you miss any follow up attack (especially blowtorch has a happy tendency to go on full cd doing absolutely nothing)

- The target twitches a little or gets pulled a third of the way due to insta-stunbreak.

- The target use one of its millions evades.

And in any case you toss moa after a pulled target there is a 50/50 chance the elixir land at you feet or where the pulled target was when you started pulling because the delay and speed on engineer skills is somewhere between a snail glued to a wall and a turtle with one leg.

 

On 12/13/2023 at 9:36 AM, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Quote

Once the magnet hits

I think you do need to play more Engi based on this statement alone.

[Chaba.5410]

3 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

If you're getting bent discussing this (as suggested by your use of all caps)

Caps are for emphasis on certain words in imitation of speech patterns, more visible than bold.  Try not to read too much into such things.

Edit:  Want me to edit my post so it doesn't contain caps?  Won't really change the meaning of the statements...

Edited December 30, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Triptaminas.4789]

1 hour ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

So what you're saying is... it's really not as impossible to pull off as some would have us believe. 😄

 

Dawdler is smart dude, but hes wrong about magnet. I didnt read the whole thread, i read first pages when it just started... i doubt u guys came to any conclusion so its kinda pointless to read thru it. 

Today i share lot of vids so here another vid from same youtube acc that consist solely of videos where engineer pulling and moe'ing commanders.

Hes very well known in europe wvw community, well known might be actually understatement :D few seen videos, absolute majority heard com's rage about it tho.

he does the said impossible stuff in extremely consistent manner, consistent enough to make com's rage quit. 

 

95% of engineers cant do this, cuz its not easy, its this niche stuff that u need to practice.

In your initial video u posted a dude who executed everything very nicely, that was good play that majority cant pull off, + in both instances u got hit by those SM archers... those hit thiefs hard, u can actually see it clawing 1/3 of your hp just as u turn into moa, the eng itself did just 10k burst, clearly running glass itself, dodge jumping thief at heart. 

Not sure why u mad? he might be using macros, tho he got you with your pants down both times tbh, macros or no macros it was kinda gg in enemy sm with your health pool, if not eng then guards would have finished you with those 4k hitting arrows + also its almost like we forget that there is many one shot builds especially against thiefs, that might feel like complete kitten against u have no way to protect (if caught with your pants down)

I think both parties in this convo is kinda silly.. i would use different word but mods gonna give me penalty and perma ban if i offend again. 

P.s im most disappointed by the "impossible" part of this crowd, interesting what they say about amx doing impossible there, salty thief i can understand, even relate to, but i expected better from Dawdler and his magnet wisdom. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Triptaminas.4789

[Dawdler.8521]

5 hours ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

Dawdler is smart dude, but hes wrong about magnet.

lol and how many times do you think AMX has failed to get the funny clip?

You think all videos on the forums are 100% success rate accurate to what happened over the same play duration as the video?

Still remind me to this day when a spell breaker posted this awesome outnumbered clip comp with a 1v4 fight instadowning 3 of them (pof release so prenerfs) and cut the clip there and I posted a response clip saying well yeah it’s strong but videos don’t show the full story here we fought one 4v1 and eventually I 1v1 killed that spell breaker.

Turned out I had accidentally posted the same fight, uncut from another perspective, without even realizing it.

[Triptaminas.4789]

3 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

lol and how many times do you think AMX has failed to get the funny clip?

You think all videos on the forums are 100% success rate accurate to what happened over the same play duration as the video?

Still remind me to this day when a spell breaker posted this awesome outnumbered clip comp with a 1v4 fight instadowning 3 of them (pof release so prenerfs) and cut the clip there and I posted a response clip saying well yeah it’s strong but videos don’t show the full story here we fought one 4v1 and eventually I 1v1 killed that spell breaker.

Turned out I had accidentally posted the same fight, uncut from another perspective, without even realizing it.

I wrote that its done consistently enough, not that every attempt is success, i thought i pointed this out? Vids here should close the topic about rng magnet pull and impossibility of X elexir timing... or so i hoped.  

I dont really watch vids at forums, i come here once a blue moon to bant with the surface....

Videos where people larping for some forum/youtube clout is very obvious to at least somewhat experienced player, the way people kite or use aboutface is usually all it takes to sift kitten from grain.... and obv motages of amx is edited, parts where his kitten getting whooped is edited out, parts where its failing is edited out, only pure sex is in videos and that was kinda whole point of why they was made : to show successful pulls....

lol, if u would be from EU server's and active in voice tagged squads, this wouldnt be a topic. 

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

 Vids here should close the topic about rng magnet pull and impossibility of X elexir timing...

No one has said it’s impossible.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

21 hours ago, Triptaminas.4789 said:

in both instances u got hit by those SM archers... those hit thiefs hard, u can actually see it clawing 1/3 of your hp just as u turn into moa, the eng itself did just 10k burst, clearly running glass itself, dodge jumping thief at heart. 

Not sure why u mad? he might be using macros, tho he got you with your pants down both times tbh, macros or no macros it was kinda gg in enemy sm with your health pool, if not eng then guards would have finished you with those 4k hitting arrows + also its almost like we forget that there is many one shot builds especially against thiefs, that might feel like complete kitten against u have no way to protect (if caught with your pants down)

It was friendly SMC.  Was helping defend in both clips. I never denied I was caught with pants down both times. In first clip, selflessly trying to clear rams on inner gate before closing it. Second clip, helping random ally chase off attackers.  Yes, there are many "one shot" builds effective against thieves, e.g., Sic'Ems.  But none of them disconnect your keyboard in 0.5 seconds after first contact.  And that isn't exaggeration.  It's effectively what happened in these clips.  That's the only thing this discussion is supposed to be about.  In my opinion, rendering players 100% unable to do anything, no matter how many stun breaks they may have, is unhealthy and shouldn't exist.  Others can disagree and that's fine.  But 90% of this discussion has derailed into thief-shaming when the outcome would have been the same no matter what class I was on.  The only difference could be the possibility of surviving the burst if tankier.  But the total disable (keyboard disconnect) would happen no matter what.  My only regret is that I wasn't on any other class besides thief that day.  Then this discussion would be half as long and much more focused and on-topic, lol.

Also, I know people like to assume or project anger in these situations, but honestly, I was never mad.  Even when these clips happened, my only feeling was "WTF???" Not, "REEEEEEEE!" Because I've never experienced this before.  Didn't know it was even possible to 100% lock out the skill bar, regardless of stun breaks.  I just chilled on the ground for a few moments reviewing the combat log to try and figure out what happened or if it was a cheater. Friendlies rez'd me in moments. Didn't even have to visit spawn. Then several hours later that evening, I remembered I saved background recording and decided to make a funny "ad" about this combo.  So nope, was never mad. I do argue/debate seriously though, so people could mistake that for salt.  IDC either way.

[Chaba.5410]

On 12/29/2023 at 12:49 PM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Maybe because you quoted me replying to MedievalThings.5417 who was making the comparison to "perma-CC" builds?  Maybe that's why?

Yea maybe.  Slow down a second and try not attribute whatever Medieval was saying to my own response to you.

 

On 12/29/2023 at 12:49 PM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

No. I'm saying for the umpteenth time that CC + Moa is true perma-CC in that it locks out the entire skillbar including stun breaks.  Unlike the "perma-CC" scenarios others were describing, where you can actually do something.

Yea, moa doesn't have a stunbreak skill.  So?  Just for accuracy, let's not say that Moa locks you out of the entire skillbar because Moa has it's own set of skills.  It's CCs like daze that lock you out of the skillbar.  Certain skills that break stun do not get locked by those CCs.

The meta support spellbreaker build doesn't have a stunbreak skill either - probably not the only build out there without a stunbreak.  Moa does have an evade skill though.  Of course you couldn't use it because you got dazed immediately.  And because of the class you were playing, you didn't have enough HP/toughness to wait out the daze.  In all instances, the common thread is the chaining of CCs.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

39 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Yea maybe.  Slow down a second and try not attribute whatever Medieval was saying to my own response to you.

Except, you do seem to be making the same point that Medieval and Dawdler were: that the CC + Moa combo is no different from any other chain-CC situation.  And that isn't true.  As I keep saying, CC + Moa is the only situation that can't be stun-broken.  Other chain-CCs can be because they do not take away any stun breaks you might have.

39 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Yea, moa doesn't have a stunbreak skill.  So?  Just for accuracy, let's not say that Moa locks you out of the entire skillbar because Moa has it's own set of skills.  It's CCs like daze that lock you out of the skillbar.  Certain skills that break stun do not get locked by those CCs.

The meta support spellbreaker build doesn't have a stunbreak skill either - probably not the only build out there without a stunbreak.  Moa does have an evade skill though.  Of course you couldn't use it because you got dazed immediately.  And because of the class you were playing, you didn't have enough HP/toughness to wait out the daze.  In all instances, the common thread is the chaining of CCs.

Let's not strawman this.  I have said multiple times that Moa alone is fine (because of the evade skill and dashes that allow the target a chance to react defensively).  This discussion is specifically about Moa in combination with CC, which unlike any other burst combo or CC-chain, completely and totally locks out the skill bar, regardless of any normally-available stun breaks.  "Keyboard might as well be disconnected for 3+ seconds" and "literally can't press any buttons" are not hyperbolic descriptions.  This is exactly what Moa + CC does.  I don't know how else to put it.  This is the specific circumstance I believe is unhealthy, even if it isn't common and is tricky to execute.  People are welcome to feel otherwise, but I'm not changing my view on it any more than Anet is likely to do something about this.