Is this the current state of raiding?

[Sobx.1758]

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think it's time to clear something up here. I don't have a problem if you want to talk about how you don't have the same experience with bad teams others have. Great for you.

...  but ...

I do have a problem with the implication that people are just lying about their own bad teaming experiences because it's not the experience you have. 

You literally wrote this:

16 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Personally, I play in a way that I don't have to deal with it, since a LONG time ago but if forum is any indication, I think it's much less a problem. 

What else was it supposed to mean if not that you avoid lfg since a LONG time ago, while at the same time you're trying to describe what changed about it... without... actually... using it? I didn't write you're somehow "lying" there, I wrote that according to what you just said, you're talking about something you're not using for a LONG time. 🙄 
So again: what else was that sentence supposed to mean if not that you're throwing out your theories while not using lfg in the first place?

 

And yeah, you just told someone in this thread that their experience doesn't matter because they are new to the content and it was totally different back then. Except I did start back then and apparently people not being new to the content doesn't matter now anyways. Not sure how that exactly works.

 

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What's important here is that people understand that how players interact with each other DOES impact the development or success of a game where player interaction is crucial and the people that deny this impact are just not being honest.

What's important is that you come up with your random (at least for now everything points at it being random) claims like "small but vocal fraction of players that insists on telling people how to play" being able to "gatekeep" content/lfg and when questioned how that's supposed to work, you simply... forget you ever said it, because it's obviously baseless and in reality nobody -even moreso a "small but vocal fraction"- is able to somehow gatekeep the rest of the players from lfg or the discussed content.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Sobx.1758
corrected the quote

[Jedrik.3109]

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, you can disagree all you like but the fact we no longer have raids being developed does have a player contribution, even if you claim you didn't experience it. 

There simply isn't a narrative here that excludes the role that players had in the failure of raids due to how that community interacted with each other. It doesn't take much to turn off a casual playerbase from endgame team content and that particular 'player community' contribution to raid failure was planted way before raids even existed. 

But since some of us like nostalgia and others never even got a look of how some of these bad seeds started ... here is just one example: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guardian-PVT-or-Zerker

You are projecting your own narrative. Equating your opinion for for fact. And seem to emotionally invested to have a reasonable discussion. 

Have a happy new year!  ❤️ 

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

You are projecting your own narrative. Equating your opinion for for fact.

It's not an opinion that how players interact with each other affects the development and success of a game that critically relies on player interaction. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Jedrik.3109]

I see the Obtena.7952 typing ..

Here it comes...

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not an opinion that how players interact with each other affects the development and success of a game that critically relies on player interaction. 

All this is true. 

But...

You know what. Believe whatever you need to my friend. And I hope the new year brings you what you need. Much love.

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

All this is true. 

Yes, of course it is ... which is why no one should be having some absolutely nonsensical argument with me that players behaving badly to other players (which DID happen) had no effect on the current state of raids in the game. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

PvP is filled with premade groups that are constantly winning the MATs playing unranked only outside said MATs(I've gone up against premade groups of people with 3v3 Elite, Baron of the Arena, etc. titles in unranked)
In WvW whenever you die people will be jumping over your corpse, throwing siege on you(RoF done this to me on my alt a few times)
In open world people all demand to get everything right away and can't play the game(Some people on the forum complain that things are too grindy and the game is hard)

All of that is a fact!

Except a bunch of people would jump here to correct me that just because I equate what happened to me to my statements it isn't a fact and an opinion. I can literally jump onto my alt, join a squad asking for 50 LI, tell them that I only have 45, but I'd like to join, chances are they'll be fine with it.
Before I learnt that I can link my alt's and main's KPme my experience was basically "just trust me bro please" and so far I got told no twice. If there'd be some gatekeeping as you imply I would have had to literally dig up my main's KPme to use it each time I tried to join groups asking for KP or LI, but when people are perfectly fine with a 3k AP 7LI guy joining a 50LI W1 FC as HFB tank and go along with how that person wants to tank I refuse to belive that people are doing their hardest to gatekeep the less experienced and tell them how to play.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

4 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Strikes are fine if the mechanics are good. Soto has two Strikes, Blue Shrek and ToF. 

You fall asleep from boredom on Blue Shrek, even on CM, while ToF has a really good baseline of mechanics where they allow you to get rid of certain empowerements on the boss. Even if some of the empowerements aren't bad the randomness of what gets empowered in what order makes it an interesting fight.

If all the Strikes were on the level of ToF - not necessearily in terms of difficulty, but in terms of not being boring as hell - I'd say Strikes would be more liked than now.

Druid, Chrono, BS, Alacren and HFB were pretty much guaranteed. The group I raided with would much rather bring RR even on Largos than a scam and in pugs I got so many comments on playing Heal Scrapper instead of HFB as offheal. Once EoD dropped I saw a sudden jump in wipes on bosses in pugs like VG, Gorse, KC and CA which was always followed by people complaining that there's no Druid to push, to root or to Elite Spirit mechanics. Was a fun few weeks while people adjusted.

i'm confused by what you mean by this as firebrand as renegade didn't exist until path of fire. alacrity and quickness sharing were also exclusive to chronomancer and didn't exist as boons, while the druid was the only class with real allied healing skills rather than supplemental healing.

 

wings 5-7 were already over half way into the lifetime of raids and after the second batch of elite specialisations hit.

Edited December 31, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Jedrik.3109]

3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes, of course it is ... which is why no one should be having some absolutely nonsensical argument with me that players behaving badly to other players (which DID happen) had no effect on the current state of raids in the game. 

it did have an affect. I never claimed it did not. I just disagree that it was what kept raids from being successful and getting more development.

And If people cant disagree with you over what you feel is a 'nonsensical' ..

Well close the forums all obtena has all the 'opinions' we should all have.

14 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

3 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i'm confused by what you mean by this as firebrand as renegade didn't exist until path of fire. alacrity and quickness sharing were also exclusive to chronomancer and didn't exist as boons, while the druid was the only class with real allied healing skills rather than supplemental healing.

 

wings 5-7 were already over half way into the lifetime of raids and after the second batch of elite specialisations hit.

Nowhere did I talk about anything before PoF. EoD is End of Dragons.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Jedrik.3109 said:

it did have an affect. I never claimed it did not. I just disagree that it was what kept raids from being successful and getting more development.

Then you don't have anything to disagree with me about in the first place because as I already stated previously, it was one of many factors that contributed to the failure of raids. 

 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

30 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yes, of course it is ... which is why no one should be having some absolutely nonsensical argument with me that players behaving badly to other players (which DID happen) had no effect on the current state of raids in the game. 

"Players behaving badly to other players" happens everywhere since always, not sure who you've seen arguing against that happening at all.

Meanwhile, it's still unclear how "small fraction of players" was supposed to manage to "gatekeep" lfg or content, which is what you said and what was questioned multiple times by now. 🤷‍♂️ 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Krzysztof.5973]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:59 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

Not even an opinion really. Factually proven by Anet's own words and actions to stop releasing them, as well as evident by the declining raid participation over time, as well as the fact that Anet continuing to focus on content aimed at its core playerbase is why the game still exists. Raid state also influenced to some degree by questionable actions on player side. For instance, gatekeeping content by a small but vocal faction of players that insist on telling people how to play. It all makes a pretty clear picture of what happened and why. 

But to be fair, I think if raids were implemented differently, it could have worked. Of course, all the diehard raid supporters are already rallying against you here ... That's OK because the reality of the state of raids speaks loud enough for itself, regardless of what they will say or believe. 

As for the OP ... just isn't aware that LFg has always been a place for the things they are seeing there. Just another example of how NOT to implement features to support endgame content and another contributor to the current raid state. 

Are we really trying to dispute the fact how bad gatekeeping was before HoT? You could literally get kicked on sight for not having AP or playing wrong class. Same thing for selling dungeon paths, which exited long before raids. 

"Small faction of players" with their builds and DPS meters only helped the community move away from the dark ages of kicking for reasons above. 

If someone who spergs out by the sole suggestion of altering his build and how to play really thinks those toxic elitist raiders are gatekeeping every casual player - "making" ANet stop the raid development, then maybe he should have been gatekept from interacting with the rest of the playerbase. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Are we really trying to dispute the fact how bad gatekeeping was before HoT? 

Maybe you are ... I'm not. I made no claim 'how bad' it was; that's just you searching for an 'in' to have a go at me as someone looking to blame Anet for all the things that happened to raids that you don't like and pretend players have no role in that.

I just know that it existed, wasn't some isolated incident and it contributed to the current state of raids in the game. You're going to paint the lovely picture that the gatekeeping was something awesome because "it improved players". That's probably true for some people. 

But for others it wasn't ... and the fact that this bad approach to 'improve players' resulting in unnecessary bad will and negative views of endgame content by some continues to be glossed over or ignored is just denial in the role metapushers had in "growing" a community that eventually couldn't justify Anet continuing raid development. It's almost insulting you try to sell kicking people as 'improvement' technique because the reason to kick them had nothing to do with their ability to do the content. It did have everything to do with you not wanting to play with non-optimal players. I'm calling you on that BS. Like, THAT was what you were thinking when you kicked people ... I'm 'helping' ... yeah, YOURSELF. 

Nothing you can say will change the fact that the behaviours you are implying was an 'improvement approach' had a negative impact on raid sustainability. All those players that were joining teams to do raids were ALREADY committed to participate ... the "improvement approach" you chose made some better BUT at the expense of others who weren't going to subject themselves to the community behaviours they saw. The irony is that in the end, this improvement approach came at your expense because what do we hear now?  "Anet what raids doing?" for the last 4 years AMIRITE? The non-participant players moved on and you're sitting here lamenting the lack of raid development and pretending players that think like you had a positive impact on participation.  🤡  FAFO. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by Obtena.7952

[Krzysztof.5973]

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Maybe you are ... I'm not. I made no claim 'how bad' it was

You made a claim that raids failed because of gatekeeping and I said that gatekeeping in raids was less of a problem compared to pre-raids days. I misunderstood you then. In that case, you were making a point that raids were a blessing to the gatekeeping of old and how much changed for the better 😘
 

3 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

just you searching for an 'in' to have a go at me as someone looking to blame Anet for all the things that happened to raids that you don't like and pretend players have no role in that.

I'm sorry if you feel like you're an easy target. It's obviously ANet's fault that they didn't ease the playerbase into the raiding scene. It is their fault that they cultivated the chasm in damage done by players. Obviously their playerbase had some part in that. No need to act like an empath and just straight out say that "I pretend players had no role in that" is my position. 
 

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I just know that it existed, wasn't some isolated incident and it contributed to the current state of raids in the game. You're going to paint the lovely picture that the gatekeeping was something awesome because "it improved players". That's probably true for some people. 

But for others it wasn't ...

Yes... I've seen my share of forum posts just literally saying (not even trying to use a hyperbole here) that changing their builds is considered by them elitist and gatekeeping. 

 

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

and the fact that this bad approach to 'improve players' resulting in unnecessary bad will and negative views of endgame content by some continues to be glossed over or ignored is just denial in the role metapushers had in "growing" a community that eventually couldn't justify Anet continuing raid development.

I've got a banger question for you then. Give me percentage of how much at fault was this "metapushing" to the downfall of raids? 

 

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's almost insulting you try to sell kicking people as 'improvement' technique because the reason to kick them had nothing to do with their ability to do the content. It did have everything to do with you not wanting to play with non-optimal players. I'm calling you on that BS. Like, THAT was what you were thinking when you kicked people ... I'm 'helping' ... yeah, YOURSELF. 

Is this "sale of kicking to improve technique" in the room with us? Literally spitting in the faces of all the people who put out guides and builds over the years. I think I have to clarify something since you are fighting your own demons here. 
Kicking on sight is always bad. If you got kicked around wing 1-3 era It was almost always because you did not improve by getting hero points, gear and build in order and got kicked for  your own performance.
They were and are multiple communities helping and training players YEARS after the release of wing 7. 
 

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing you can say will change the fact that the behaviours you are implying was an 'improvement approach' had a negative impact on raid sustainability. All those players that were joining teams to do raids were ALREADY committed to participate ... the "improvement approach" you chose made some better BUT at the expense of others who weren't going to subject themselves to the community behaviours they saw.

That is just life. It's because of the way raid content was introduced. For many, like you said, who were already committed, there wasn't whole lot to improve. 
For some there was so much they had to improve, they just decided to give up on raids and stick to other parts of the game. It was all the single player MMO players, the I play my own way and no elitist will tell me otherwise players, all the AFK half the time and AA meta minionmancers with gear in the color of the rainbow players. 
Obviously portion of the entire PvE population will be left behind. 

You are free to point me a single piece of content or a mechanic that exists in this game that captures 100% of it's playerbase. There isn't one? Oh, that's gatekeeping I guess.

4 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

The irony is that in the end, this improvement approach came at your expense because what do we hear now?  "Anet what raids doing?" for the last 4 years AMIRITE? The non-participant players moved on and you're sitting here lamenting the lack of raid development and pretending players that think like you had a positive impact on participation.  🤡  FAFO. 

I don't know who are you talking to. I don't lament raid development. I'm here enjoying the small community I've built and friendships I've made. I am grateful because raid made them possible. 

Should have tried seeping with hatred a little less and maybe you would have made friends among the raiding community you so often demonize 😘

[Obtena.7952]

54 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

You made a claim that raids failed because of gatekeeping and I said that gatekeeping in raids was less of a problem compared to pre-raids days. I misunderstood you then. In that case, you were making a point that ...

No, that wasn't my point. i will not be misunderstood. My point is that the practice of gatekeeping is just ONE of many reasons raids were not successful which led to their discontinued development. Obviously, that's a hard pill to swallow, especially for people that practiced that 'improvement approach' as you labelled it. I know you have a problem with the finger being pointed at this small part of the raid community ... but it's true. 

As for the rest, I'm assuming that the creative nature of what you think you understand about what I'm saying continues throughout the remainder of your post and not really worth replying to. 

Edited January 1 by Obtena.7952

[Linken.6345]

10 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, that wasn't my point. i will not be misunderstood. My point is that this gatekeeping is just ONE of many reasons raids were not successful which led to their discontinued development.  I know you have a problem with the finger being pointed back at certain parts of the raid community ... but it's just the truth here. 

As for the rest, I made none of the other points that I have highlighted here, so I'm assuming that the creative nature of what you think you understand about what I'm saying continues throughout the remainder of your post and not really worth replying to. 

Sure its a small % of the many reasons it failed.

Another bigger % was casuals refusing the make any squads instead trying to make people drag them through content.

Failing that they started fear mongering in the game, forums and reddit that the raiding population was evil toxic elitist that kicked for no reason at all.

The raid developer saying that the maximum wings they could make per year was 4 and then releasing 1 a year was another big reason the momentum died.

Dollars to developer time I think raids are the third/fourth ( it might be over taken by strikes over time) most profitable one after fractals and map metas.

Edited January 1 by Linken.6345

[Obtena.7952]

31 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Sure its a small % of the many reasons it failed.

Yup, there are are lots of reasons; I've said so myself. I haven't denied any particular reason isn't a contributor. I'm not trying to list them all. I also haven't made an attempt to rank any of them, because doing so is nonsense as there simply isn't any data to suggest their relative significance. 

It's simply absurd that anyone would argue gatekeeping should be excluded from that contribution list, regardless of how much a hot take it might be for people that think gatekeeping is awesome because it 'improves players'.

Edited January 1 by Obtena.7952

[Cyninja.2954]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup, there are are lots of reasons; I've said so myself. I haven't denied any particular reason isn't a contributor. I'm not trying to list them all. I also haven't made an attempt to rank any of them, because doing so is nonsense as there simply isn't any data to suggest their relative significance. 

It's simply absurd that anyone would argue gatekeeping should be excluded from that contribution list, regardless of how much a hot take it might be for people that think gatekeeping is awesome because it 'improves players'.

No one is exluding gatekeeping. You simply like to phrase and design your posts in a way that suggests gatekeeping is one of the primary reasons why raids failed.

There are enough points that hint at that not being the case. One of them being that gatekeeping was far worse before raids, and the changes which came with raids actually reduced senseless gatekeeping.

For example, I could easily claim that a mentality of "I get to play how I want, screw all of you who are telling me to improve/optimize my build" was a far greater contributor to instanced content failing or being challenging. A mentailty which while it has shifted and changed by know, still prevails to some extent. Today running at least semi useful builds depending on content has mostly been accepted, but it took years and many changes to get to this point.

If I now decided to simply focus on that 1 point, I could easily misrepresent an issues as complex as raiding, which is exatcly what you like doing. While most often actually lacking any experince with said content yourself, usually just sticking to forum tropes or your own make believe opinions.

Edited January 1 by Cyninja.2954

[zeyeti.8347]

For me what really also maintained raid away is the gap in skills between the open world stuff and the raids , ppl just went into raids like it was open world meta "come as you are" and felt on Vale guardian who mostly wrecked thousands of squads easily , anet has done an open world accessible to anybody and then added stuff really hard compared to open world , just look at Soo Won meta who failed almost everytime at release , because ppl didn't even know that red aoe -> bad , the meta is easy , its' the level of players around it who made this difficult ! Thats why they came with the deisgn of strikes : you have a little insight about the fight in the story mode (with even an easier mode interacting with aurene's crystal) then you have the 10 ppl squad normal mode and finally the cm of those .

Emboldened is a good addition to raids , but i think if the base design of raids was , easy mode -> normal mode -> cm mode , that would have been very profitable for raids , ofc it would have needed a lot more work than adding the emboldened mode.

But would not be difficult to figure out , example :

easy mode : Diminish VG pool for 20% , green exploding only remove 40% of total health , only one red ball coming trough the group ,  cc bar of VG is very low , arena shift colors happens less often (I spoke about raid release timing , not now , it's too late , with all the powercreep such a mode would be ridiculous ...)

Ofc you make the reward less appealing (not that rewards are actually appealing , even in cm mode...)

And for those trying to argue with Obtena , GL , the dude live in his own reality and it's not worth loosing your time arguing with him , also plz stop quoting his message , i can't block those  ,  only player in the game who has +10% confusion damage and duration (bypass expertise) base.

Edited January 1 by zeyeti.8347

[devzero.4093]

16 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's almost insulting you try to sell kicking people as 'improvement' technique because the reason to kick them had nothing to do with their ability to do the content. It did have everything to do with you not wanting to play with non-optimal players. I'm calling you on that BS. Like, THAT was what you were thinking when you kicked people ... I'm 'helping' ... yeah, YOURSELF. 

I can of course only speak for myself when commanding, but if you can't fill the role that I'm looking for in an exp (experienced) run you won't be able to join my groups. I can't compare roles today to the roles back then as I've not experienced it myself, but we still have role requirements that "need" (I'll get to this later) to be met for smooth runs. Be it boonhealer, boondps, handkite, pusher or whatever. If there are no slots left you don't get to join, it's all on a first come first serve basis unless someone doesn't mind swapping roles for you.

I'll give you an example of what I mean: I create a group and we have 9/10 players and we're only missing a qdps so I put up an LFG looking for a qdps. Instead of a qdps a normal dps joins. Yes, we probably can do the content without a qdps, but the thing is, I don't want to, not in an exp run. I politely inform the player that we're looking for a qdps and if he can't qdps or fill another role (role swapping with someone else if they don't mind) then I'll ask him to leave. Ultimately, if he doesn't leave by free will I will ensure that he does by kicking him, as boons are non-negotiable for me. Is this toxic behavior or gatekeeping for you or is it different now because it's not difficult to fill a role like boondps/boonhealer nowadays?

There are exceptions to this of course. In non-experienced runs, such as training runs, if a complete newbie joins and has no idea what a boondps even is then I'll let them stay to experience the raid, even if it means I'm handicapping the group for this player. I try to avoid this situation as much as possible but it did happen a few times. My training runs have no expectations or requirements and I don't expect a full clear, we get as far as we get.

3 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said:

For me what really also maintained raid away is the gap in skills between the open world stuff and the raids , ppl just went into raids like it was open world meta "come as you are" and felt on Vale guardian who mostly wrecked thousands of squads easily

I never thought of it this way but I think you hit the nail on the head with "ppl just went into raids like it was open world meta". This is seemingly what a lot of new players are doing even today in the experienced raid tab, which is why people ask for killproof. The funny and ironic thing is that if Anet would have "gatekept" the experienced raid tab like they do with T4 fractals, there would have been less opportunities for animosity to develop. I think it would have changed the way people perceived the situation going from "other players are gatekeeping me" to "I need to raid more to unlock the experienced tab". Similar how you need to level up your fractal level to be able to join/create T4 groups.

What do you guys who think killproof/requirements are gatekeeping think about the personal fractal level and the T4 LFG tab being locked until you level up high enough? Ignore agony for a second.

[Obtena.7952]

12 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

If I now decided to simply focus on that 1 point, I could easily misrepresent an issues as complex as raiding, which is exatcly what you like doing. 

If you think that, you just aren't reading my posts. What is REALLY happening here is that some people are taking offense to a particular reason of the numerous ones I listed in my first post. 

Of course, no one disagreed with the reasons I listed related to mistakes Anet made ... but the second I mention some players contributed with their behaviours , the place blows up. People just can't deal with the consequences of their own actions ... so they try to deny those actions have an impact, or that it's insignficant ... or EVEN the absurdity of gaslighting us to think those behaviours was some scheme to help people improve. 

I think it's actually REALLY important we look back on the things WE control and ask what went wrong on our side. We can't do much with the Anet side of things, but we can with ours. SOME people in this thread have been advocating better community behaviour for over ten years, warning of similar bad results. People that acted in their own interests did so at the expense of community health and took raid content for granted ... some introspection is in order there. I'm sure OTHER people in this thread are loathe to admit the SOME people's warnings were actually valid. 

 

Edited January 1 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

54 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

If you think that, you just aren't reading my posts.

So for people who still read your posts, make sure to explain how "small fraction of players" was supposed to manage to "gatekeep" lfg or content (this or any other).

No? Oh well, it's almost as if it's not about "what you wrote", but about the conclusion you want to draw no matter what. Hence the constant focus on using buzz words and blamegame attempts, where despite "not attempting to rank the reasons", you keep weirdly sticking to a single particular one. 🤷‍♂️

 

e1: Wild ninja edit appeared above:

54 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think it's actually REALLY important we look back on the things WE control and ask what went wrong on our side. We can't do much with the Anet side of things, but we can with ours. SOME people in this thread have been advocating better community behaviour for over ten years, warning of similar bad results. I'm sure OTHER people in this thread are loathe to admit the SOME people's warnings were actually valid. 

Without change, nobody could gatekeep lfg or content, even moreso when it was "a small fraction of players". The solution for "but I don't like that those players want me to play [whatever/however]!" is simply making your own squad however you want to see it. So still as wrong as you were when you first time tried implying it in this thread.
I think it's REALLY important to look back at it and remind everyone that nobody owes you a squad you want to see -never did and never will. If that "oppressed majority" -or however you'd want to call the opposing side to the "loud minority" you were talking about- really exists/existed, they should have flooded lfg with their squads instead of waiting for others to solve the content and then drag them through it.

 

e2: And another edit, except in the middle of the previous edit:

54 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

People that acted in there own interests did it at the expense of community health and took raid content for granted ... some introspection is in order there.

Wait, so people who make their groups however they want them to be are "acting in their own interest at the expense of community health", but people who stick to the forum, create no groups and try to blame everyone else for not creating groups specifically for those players sitting back are... not acting in their own interest at the expense of community health? Once again: how exactly is that supposed work?

Edited January 1 by Sobx.1758

[Krzysztof.5973]

36 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So for people who still read your posts, make sure to explain how "small fraction of players" was supposed to manage to "gatekeep" lfg or content (this or any other).

No? Oh well, it's almost as if it's not about "what you wrote", but about the conclusion you want to draw no matter what. Hence the constant focus on using buzz words and blamegame attempts, where despite "not attempting to rank the reasons", you keep weirdly sticking to a single particular one. 🤷‍♂️

 

Wild ninja edit appeared above:

Without change, nobody could gatekeep lfg or content, even moreso when it was "a small fraction of players". The solution for "but I don't like that those players want me to play [whatever/however]!" is simply making your own squad however you want to see it. So still as wrong as you were when you first time tried implying it in this thread.
I think it's REALLY important to look back at it and remind everyone that nobody owes you a squad you want to see -never did and never will. If that "oppressed majority" -or however you'd want to call the opposing side to the "loud minority" you were talking about- really exists/existed, they should have fludded lfg with their squads instead of waiting for others to solve the content and then drag them through it.

 

Very well put. Obtena probably thinks over 50% of the reasons why raids "failed" is because of "metapushers" and since he just ignores uncomfortable questions we should probably leave him alone in his fantasy world 😉

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Krzysztof.5973 said:

Obtena probably thinks over 50% of the reasons why raids "failed" is because of "metapushers" 

Actually, no. I never claimed to know what percent is attributed to any specific reason. In fact, I actually said you CAN'T do this.

The fact you say such a thing is just a demonstration you want to argue with me in bad faith and aren't being objective when you read my posts. 

Edited January 1 by Obtena.7952

[Krzysztof.5973]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, no. I never claimed to know what percent is attributed to any specific reason. In fact, I actually said you CAN'T do this.

Nobody ever claimed you did. All we ever asked you was to entertain the thought. If you were actually honest you would put together a list of 10-20 reasons why raids have failed with highest-lowest impact. We are all free to speculate. It's a nice way to check if one's beliefs are grounded in reality. 

And don't forget to answer to this one: 

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

explain how "small fraction of players" was supposed to manage to "gatekeep" lfg or content (this or any other).

Edited January 1 by Krzysztof.5973