tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 Just now, Teknomancer.4895 said: And right here is your issue. You're conflating Defiance Break availability to the class with availability to the build, which are not at all the same thing. If you go to that wiki link you'll see that Ele has far and away the most access, but putting that outlier aside it's about evenly available to all others. i know that, the whole point of this post is balancing that, cc should be taken into consideration when balancing a spec 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 1 minute ago, Passerbye.6291 said: And that's fine because not every class needs to do the same things. If you want a specific thing some other class has, play that class. Your arguments are that you want to play elementalist for flavour, but you want it to play like a virtuoso. Every class has its weakness, the ones with fewer weaknesses or more versatility tend to become the meta and therefore eventually get nerfed. Most people, me included, expected condi virtuoso to be among those nerfed classes btw. i agree, not every class needs to do the same thing, every class should have its strengh, and weakness, but what cweaver has right now ? burst condi damage ? cvirt has more , cc? cvirt has more, much more, survavability ? cvirt has more, utitlity ? cvirt has more, cleve ? cvirt has more, range ? cvirt has more, you see im talking that much about those 2 classes because i play them both, i like my weaver much more, but it feels so dumb to play it, also its so frustating to be kicked for not having enough cc, i very much believe this is the reason why weaver is noy played that much, i do believe that the cweaver rotation is very easy, it maybe as easier as cvirt if you remove weave self, but what is the point of playing it ? you will do less damage, less everything, and on some encounter, you may not be able to even clear it 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passerbye.6291 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 22 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: i agree, not every class needs to do the same thing, every class should have its strengh, and weakness, but what cweaver has right now ? burst condi damage ? cvirt has more , cc? cvirt has more, much more, survavability ? cvirt has more, utitlity ? cvirt has more, cleve ? cvirt has more, range ? cvirt has more, you see im talking that much about those 2 classes because i play them both, i like my weaver much more, but it feels so dumb to play it, also its so frustating to be kicked for not having enough cc, i very much believe this is the reason why weaver is noy played that much, i do believe that the cweaver rotation is very easy, it maybe as easier as cvirt if you remove weave self, but what is the point of playing it ? you will do less damage, less everything, and on some encounter, you may not be able to even clear it Current meta condi virtuoso has relatively low cleave actually, the one with high cleave was the chaos variant. Tbh, I wouldn't play condi weaver over power weaver for most content unless I was forced to in something like soulless horror. Power is inherently better than condi for most fights and power weaver is simply a better option than condi imo. That being said, this is the case for many characters. Power virtuoso never gets played outside of very niche circumstances for instance, which brings us back to the fact that condi virtuoso is overtuned. You can take most other classes and your comparisons will have similar results. Condi virtuoso gets self sustain without sacrificing damage, it loses minimal dps to do good CC, loses minimal damage from having to fight from range, making it have really high dps uptime. It is also one of the fastest ramping condi dpses as a significant portion of its damage is power, essentially making it a hybrid build. It also happens to be one of the easiest builds to play on top of that. All these things combined make it a prime target for a nerf, I'm not sure why it has escaped any meaningful nerf so far, seeing how scourge was nerfed when it was benching 37k while top dps was 42 due to being too versatile and tanky. I'm not saying cweaver isn't weaker than condi virtuoso overall, what I'm saying is most builds are. The solution here isn't to buff everything to virtuoso level, but to bring down the outlier. I assume the main reason why they choose not to do it is because it is meant to be what draws non mesmer players to playing mesmer, so it has to remain good. I'd still bring it down to 39-40k dps at least though. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 3 Author Share Posted February 3 1 minute ago, Passerbye.6291 said: Current meta condi virtuoso has relatively low cleave actually, the one with high cleave was the chaos variant. Tbh, I wouldn't play condi weaver over power weaver for most content unless I was forced to in something like soulless horror. Power is inherently better than condi for most fights and power weaver is simply a better option than condi imo. That being said, this is the case for many characters. Power virtuoso never gets played outside of very niche circumstances for instance, which brings us back to the fact that condi virtuoso is overtuned. You can take most other classes and your comparisons will have similar results. Condi virtuoso gets self sustain without sacrificing damage, it loses minimal dps to do good CC, loses minimal damage from having to fight from range, making it have really high dps uptime. It is also one of the fastest ramping condi dpses as a significant portion of its damage is power, essentially making it a hybrid build. It also happens to be one of the easiest builds to play on top of that. All these things combined make it a prime target for a nerf, I'm not sure why it has escaped any meaningful nerf so far, seeing how scourge was nerfed when it was benching 37k while top dps was 42 due to being too versatile and tanky. I'm not saying cweaver isn't weaker than condi virtuoso overall, what I'm saying is most builds are. The solution here isn't to buff everything to virtuoso level, but to bring down the outlier. I assume the main reason why they choose not to do it is because it is meant to be what draws non mesmer players to playing mesmer, so it has to remain good. I'd still bring it down to 39-40k dps at least though. now i can fully agree with that, but sometimes you have to play cweaver, pweaver is good dps option, cweaver is the bigger problem, but you have to play in a lot of fights, like dhuum, sh, in a bad deimons group, on mathias, sabir, tl, strikes cm with the exception of ht, the 99 and 100 cm fractal, you will have to play it, and that is quite a few fights that you have to, but i dont dislike cweaver for flavor, i dislike because of balance, if they just buff the focus to have the same damage as a warhorn i would very much happy, it still very weak but you can play around, about cvirt i dont think they will ever nerf cvirt at this point, because they are balancing cleary solely on golem performance, so its better to just target the points that they are ignoring like cc and utility 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedrik.3109 Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 If you are getting kicked for low CC it is not the class or builds fault. You need to adapt you rotation to the fight. You have enough CC reasonable to the groups needs except for a few niche encounters. Anything else is bs or other things not mentioned. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geronmy.3298 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 >Swap one or two utilities for cc ones for a not so big dps loss >Don't use them until you actually need the cc. >????? >Profit 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistwraithe.3106 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) Wow, so much debate about something which seems pretty simple. Obviously CC output is a factor which should be accounted for when comparing builds. Equally obviously if two classes have equal max dps builds but one of them has lots of cc available but the other doesn’t then the first build/class is better when evaluating for max dps builds. Thus it should be taking into account when balancing. So should survivability, boon production, etc. They all contribute to the overall evaluation of a build (and by extension class when comparing max dps builds). Edited February 4 by Mistwraithe.3106 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 42 minutes ago, Geronmy.3298 said: >Swap one or two utilities for cc ones for a not so big dps loss >Don't use them until you actually need the cc. >????? >Profit it is a huge dps loss on cweaver, you see, this is the whole point, the opportunity cost on the cweaver utilities is huge, you lost around 3k for each utility, if you have to put like ice bow and earth shield for cc you will be raced by boon dps builds, at this point you should simple switch to specter, chrono boon dps, do more cc, more dps, and provide boons 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 23 minutes ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said: Wow, so much debate about something which seems pretty simple. Obviously CC output is a factor which should be accounted for when comparing builds. Equally obviously if two classes have equal max dps builds but one of them has lots of cc available but the other doesn’t then the first build/class is better when evaluating for max dps builds. Thus it should be taking into account when balancing. So should survivability, boon production, etc. They all contribute to the overall evaluation of a build (and by extension class when comparing max dps builds). Seems pretty reasonable to me. And obvious in the particular comparison is that cvirt is overtuned in basically every possible way in PvE while cweaver has practically every disadvantage you can have packed into a top tier DPS build. They really need to pay attention to power budget and stop creating these do-everything monstrosities and if they're just going to let them be that way forever, then add some things to the builds that have nothing. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emberheart.8426 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 12 hours ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: it is a huge dps loss on cweaver, you see, this is the whole point, the opportunity cost on the cweaver utilities is huge, you lost around 3k for each utility, if you have to put like ice bow and earth shield for cc you will be raced by boon dps builds, at this point you should simple switch to specter, chrono boon dps, do more cc, more dps, and provide boons And let's not forget that conjures are among the most clunky skills of the game. Nobody wants to pick up conjures and people avoid them like the plague, constantly asking for a rework. Ele's severe lack of utility options for its dps build is a well known fact and it's one of the many reasons for the abysmal play rates. Edited February 4 by Emberheart.8426 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Tornado? You'll loose the temporary damage boost from Weave Self, but this averages to about 8.3% loss. Tornado is a load of CC for when it is needed. Back when I played the competitive PVE side of the game, I would bring Tornado on my CWeaver builds for particularly high CC fights like the EoD strikes. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Please forward that complaint straight to https://snowcrows.com/, https://discretize.eu/ and https://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki. They define the meta. They decide which skills are worth to pick. And you decide to play those builds. There do exist alternatives to the meta. Wingman data is not a reliable source of information and only shows data of a certain fraction of the community: people who know Wingman exists and use it. There are a lot of people in the game who know about the tool but have never dared to touch it. And there are even more players who have never even heard of it. So every 'fact' you claim by the data of Wingman is basically a wild guess like everything else on this board. Why are you the only person to complain about this problem? The answer is rather simple. The current top-benchmark according to ... snowcrows is condi druid with 43,831 DPS. The fact that this benchmark is exact by 1 point should already make the target-audience pondering. Anyway, join a random group and you will be quite surprised that all non-support DPS roles are not exclusively filled by condi durid. Due to the class diversion we have and people playing classes they like and not the pure-meta, you usually get your share of CC covered. Some classes provide more, some less. And if it doesn't work out? You can always switch a skill from your build temporarily. As far as I remember, the meta-defining communities offer CC variants to their builds, for the case of a greater need of it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeyeti.8347 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 39 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said: Wingman data is not a reliable source of information and only shows data of a certain fraction of the community: people who know Wingman exists and use it. Basically all endgame enjoyer has , personnaly wingman reflects my own experience of the endgame , no ele whatsoever , a lot of virtuoso ... but that's not crowd control accountable only it's a tiny part of it or else you would never see a vindicator for he has horrible cc too. Weaver is not bad at cc it has pretty good ones , on a fairly low cd , but the problem is his strict rotation not permitting to have skill x or y available for the cc. Virtuoso indeed is a monster , i play it non stop with harb on condi encounters and it's easy , do very good damage with low effort , bring tremendous hard cc and has insane survivability. Aliam suggested a f5 doing basically do Unravel , that sort of idea should be seen by anet and put into the game , that only would make weaver able to cc whenever he wants problem is anet is balancing arounds benchmarks who do not reflect the % playrate or the encounter pressure ... everything that goes above 42-43k is nerfed , be it difficult to play , has no cc , is melee only , no ! They simply don't allow such benchmark and sadly that was ele only real strong point , going above the dps with classes like mirage , but being very difficult to put out , now the glass canon are doing as much damage as 22k hp builds , who has indeed more cc and are way easier to play. But that's the way anet decide to balance the game And for those who say catalyst bring a lot of boons and is not selfish , i kindly remind you we have this aberration who is called herald , who don't need any BD and upkeep might , prot , regen ... etc etc , and has a boon extension with can by burn for a +3 secs all party boon expend , so as long as such abomination as virtuoso or herald exist , there will be no room for other specs to shine. So cc should indeed be part of the balance , we had a Htemp on kannaxai cm , not saying but we failed 50% of the cc , guess why ? Htemp ain't a necro with golem , 2x 2sec of fear , and torch blow doing 150 breakbar ... nor a chicken virtuoso with the 600 breakbar elite skill , nor a specter who can blow a cc bar alone for +- 1200 damage with pistol 4 spam+ rock venom and the shroud . 39 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said: Please forward that complaint straight to https://snowcrows.com/, https://discretize.eu/ and https://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki. They define the meta. They decide which skills are worth to pick. And you decide to play those builds. There do exist alternatives to the meta. Thats 100% true , i have always said if snowcrow , discretize fake out dps and builds anet would maybe follow blindly , i just want them to do it once just to see if anets falls into the trap , would be funny to have weaver doing only 20k and see all his skills having a ratio in condi and power almost doubled, or they should show a 6 soulbeast (+support) doing Mursaat in 5 minutes , they seem to care a lot about this "pinata" boss and nerf every ball of spec doing it in less than 1 minute. Edited February 4 by zeyeti.8347 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said: Please forward that complaint straight to https://snowcrows.com/, https://discretize.eu/ and https://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki. They define the meta. They decide which skills are worth to pick. And you decide to play those builds. There do exist alternatives to the meta. Wingman data is not a reliable source of information and only shows data of a certain fraction of the community: people who know Wingman exists and use it. There are a lot of people in the game who know about the tool but have never dared to touch it. And there are even more players who have never even heard of it. So every 'fact' you claim by the data of Wingman is basically a wild guess like everything else on this board. Why are you the only person to complain about this problem? The answer is rather simple. The current top-benchmark according to ... snowcrows is condi druid with 43,831 DPS. The fact that this benchmark is exact by 1 point should already make the target-audience pondering. Anyway, join a random group and you will be quite surprised that all non-support DPS roles are not exclusively filled by condi durid. Due to the class diversion we have and people playing classes they like and not the pure-meta, you usually get your share of CC covered. Some classes provide more, some less. And if it doesn't work out? You can always switch a skill from your build temporarily. As far as I remember, the meta-defining communities offer CC variants to their builds, for the case of a greater need of it. Translation: I don't care about balance. It's okay for some classes to have everything and others to have nothing. Just don't play those classes if you don't like it. Buddy, you should work for ANet! 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 10 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said: Tornado? You'll loose the temporary damage boost from Weave Self, but this averages to about 8.3% loss. Tornado is a load of CC for when it is needed. Back when I played the competitive PVE side of the game, I would bring Tornado on my CWeaver builds for particularly high CC fights like the EoD strikes. Tornado has a few problems, like the foward movement that may put you in a bad position, not only that but when you dont slot weave self you kill you burst, you will ramp up like a mirage which will not be viable on a lot of fights such as aether cm and good ankka cm groups 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 6 hours ago, zeyeti.8347 said: Basically all endgame enjoyer has , personnaly wingman reflects my own experience of the endgame , no ele whatsoever , a lot of virtuoso ... but that's not crowd control accountable only it's a tiny part of it or else you would never see a vindicator for he has horrible cc too. Weaver is not bad at cc it has pretty good ones , on a fairly low cd , but the problem is his strict rotation not permitting to have skill x or y available for the cc. Virtuoso indeed is a monster , i play it non stop with harb on condi encounters and it's easy , do very good damage with low effort , bring tremendous hard cc and has insane survivability. Aliam suggested a f5 doing basically do Unravel , that sort of idea should be seen by anet and put into the game , that only would make weaver able to cc whenever he wants problem is anet is balancing arounds benchmarks who do not reflect the % playrate or the encounter pressure ... everything that goes above 42-43k is nerfed , be it difficult to play , has no cc , is melee only , no ! They simply don't allow such benchmark and sadly that was ele only real strong point , going above the dps with classes like mirage , but being very difficult to put out , now the glass canon are doing as much damage as 22k hp builds , who has indeed more cc and are way easier to play. But that's the way anet decide to balance the game And for those who say catalyst bring a lot of boons and is not selfish , i kindly remind you we have this aberration who is called herald , who don't need any BD and upkeep might , prot , regen ... etc etc , and has a boon extension with can by burn for a +3 secs all party boon expend , so as long as such abomination as virtuoso or herald exist , there will be no room for other specs to shine. So cc should indeed be part of the balance , we had a Htemp on kannaxai cm , not saying but we failed 50% of the cc , guess why ? Htemp ain't a necro with golem , 2x 2sec of fear , and torch blow doing 150 breakbar ... nor a chicken virtuoso with the 600 breakbar elite skill , nor a specter who can blow a cc bar alone for +- 1200 damage with pistol 4 spam+ rock venom and the shroud . Thats 100% true , i have always said if snowcrow , discretize fake out dps and builds anet would maybe follow blindly , i just want them to do it once just to see if anets falls into the trap , would be funny to have weaver doing only 20k and see all his skills having a ratio in condi and power almost doubled, or they should show a 6 soulbeast (+support) doing Mursaat in 5 minutes , they seem to care a lot about this "pinata" boss and nerf every ball of spec doing it in less than 1 minute. putting unravel on f5 is such a great idea, it would still be unbalanced but at least now you could acess all of ur ccs in breakbar 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teknomancer.4895 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 17 hours ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: i know that, the whole point of this post is balancing that, cc should be taken into consideration when balancing a spec Hmm.... Weaver-only CC utility skills/mechanics: 8 Elementalist CORE CC utility skills/mechanics: 24 Weaver total available CC: 32 possible options Virtuoso-only CC utility skills/mechanics: 2 Mesmer CORE CC utility skills/mechanics: 13 Virtuoso total available CC: 15 possible options Weaver has more than double the available CC options that Virtuoso does. Your complaint is literal nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Just now, Teknomancer.4895 said: Hmm.... Weaver-only CC utility skills/mechanics: 8 Elementalist CORE CC utility skills/mechanics: 24 Weaver total available CC: 32 possible options Virtuoso-only CC utility skills/mechanics: 2 Mesmer CORE CC utility skills/mechanics: 13 Virtuoso total available CC: 15 possible options Weaver has more than double the available CC options that Virtuoso does. Your complaint is literal nonsense. Speaking of literal nonsense... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EphemeralWallaby.7643 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) I carry around a stack of cannonballs on my character. Makes up for any of my CC needs when my skills aren't enough... and I use them pretty regularly. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cannonball_(Agent_Jansen) Best part is, they stick around for a bit so they can be reused in longer fights. The CD on the throw is 4 seconds... so if i know I want to quickly drop a break bar, I start with the cannonball, unleash CC skills, then if necessary the CD is over and I can throw the same cannonball again. ~EpWa Edited February 4 by EphemeralWallaby.7643 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 7 hours ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said: Please forward that complaint straight to https://snowcrows.com/, https://discretize.eu/ and https://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki. They define the meta. They decide which skills are worth to pick. And you decide to play those builds. There do exist alternatives to the meta. Wingman data is not a reliable source of information and only shows data of a certain fraction of the community: people who know Wingman exists and use it. There are a lot of people in the game who know about the tool but have never dared to touch it. And there are even more players who have never even heard of it. So every 'fact' you claim by the data of Wingman is basically a wild guess like everything else on this board. Why are you the only person to complain about this problem? The answer is rather simple. The current top-benchmark according to ... snowcrows is condi druid with 43,831 DPS. The fact that this benchmark is exact by 1 point should already make the target-audience pondering. Anyway, join a random group and you will be quite surprised that all non-support DPS roles are not exclusively filled by condi durid. Due to the class diversion we have and people playing classes they like and not the pure-meta, you usually get your share of CC covered. Some classes provide more, some less. And if it doesn't work out? You can always switch a skill from your build temporarily. As far as I remember, the meta-defining communities offer CC variants to their builds, for the case of a greater need of it. first thing first, condi druid is one of the worst condition classes damage wise on real fights, because of astral force generation, the golem benchmark is often not really realistic, for the websites they just tell you how to achieve the highest dps possible, the balance is up to arena net team, alternatives for cweaver that does cc hurts the damage way too much, to the point that you should simple play like chrono boon dps, do more damage, more cc, and provide boons. You are confunding stuff, people are playing those classes because they can cover those roles, people play classes that does a lot off cc if it is for free, that is why other classes, such as weaver, are not being played, also i know very well how to play elementalist, i dont need a website to tell me, i know where my cc is, i know how to do more cc, but the cost is too heavy, for instance, you could take a 3.5k dps loss and use tornado, you are going to be able to do around 600 - 700 cc on it, however you will not do any damage for its entire duration, increasing the 3.5k dps loss, also you will have a kitten burst, meaning that you wont be able to play cweaver on even more content, if you want to switch an utility for more cc its also going to be a 3k dpss loss, the cc wont be very impressive, and you wont be able to cc every time due to how conjure is make to work, since you are suppose to pick it again, but more often than not the conjure will disappear before the next cc and not be on cd, if you actually go to those websites, you will see that they dont have a cc variant for very good reason, its too heavy for do so, so its worth it 1 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said: Hmm.... Weaver-only CC utility skills/mechanics: 8 Elementalist CORE CC utility skills/mechanics: 24 Weaver total available CC: 32 possible options Virtuoso-only CC utility skills/mechanics: 2 Mesmer CORE CC utility skills/mechanics: 13 Virtuoso total available CC: 15 possible options Weaver has more than double the available CC options that Virtuoso does. Your complaint is literal nonsense. but you need to consider the opportunity cost of this cc, also the value of the cc as well, most of ele ccs are 100, 150, 200 break bar, if a weaver wants to do the same cc than a virt it will do much less damage than it, im talking about 9k or 6k, this needs to be balanced, having high cc on ur build should means a dps loss, or just crank up everyone's cc 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiagotatico.6304 Posted February 4 Author Share Posted February 4 3 hours ago, EphemeralWallaby.7643 said: I carry around a stack of cannonballs on my character. Makes up for any of my CC needs when my skills aren't enough... and I use them pretty regularly. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cannonball_(Agent_Jansen) Best part is, they stick around for a bit so they can be reused in longer fights. ~EpWa i dont think you can use it on raids and strikes, maybe on fractals 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teknomancer.4895 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 7 minutes ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: but you need to consider the opportunity cost of this cc, also the value of the cc as well, most of ele ccs are 100, 150, 200 break bar, if a weaver wants to do the same cc than a virt it will do much less damage than it, im talking about 9k or 6k, this needs to be balanced, having high cc on ur build should means a dps loss, or just crank up everyone's cc It is long past time for you to post the builds you're complaining about, then. Arguing about it in the abstract is going in circles; i.e. nowhere. Which Weaver build are you talking about, and which Virtuoso build? Please post chat-code or build-editor links so we can all see for ourselves exactly what you're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 15 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said: It is long past time for you to post the builds you're complaining about, then. Arguing about it in the abstract is going in circles; i.e. nowhere. Which Weaver build are you talking about, and which Virtuoso build? Please post chat-code or build-editor links so we can all see for ourselves exactly what you're talking about. If you know anything about the classes in question you know the comparison is not even remotely close. Pick any condi weaver build. Even those with some CC don't have anywhere near what Virtuoso is capable of and they are saddled with additional limitations. These can be overcome via utilities (i.e. more CC and unravel to be able to use weapon skill CC in a timely fashion) but Weaver pays a massive cost in DPS to do so. These are not new issues. One class was designed with endless nearly free utility while the other has to tie an arm behind its back to get a fraction of that. It's not unreasonable to ask that these overtuned do-everything classes like cvirt and boon herald follow the rules other classes follow or else pay for what they have in other areas (i.e. power budget). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EphemeralWallaby.7643 Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, tiagotatico.6304 said: i dont think you can use it on raids and strikes, maybe on fractals Out of curiosity I went through the wiki list of purchasable bundles (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Purchasable_bundles). It seems that over the course of many updates, bundles that provide CC have been systematically removed from use in dungeons, fractals, and WvW (including the most recent jan 30 update)... However, none I looked at listed they're unusable in raids and strikes, so I'd be interested in someone testing those out there if they're interested in trying them (I mostly play solo). I have used the cannonballs in DRMs, fwliw. The only purchasable bundles that do CC and are useable in fractals that I could find are the timed bombs https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bomb_(bundle_skill). But, given their delay they're probably more trouble than they're worth. ~EpWa Edited February 4 by EphemeralWallaby.7643 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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