Catalyst hammer...undecided

[raykor.6723]

I know it's been out for quite a while but just getting around to trying it. My first two observations are:

1. The hammer's fire and air skills are ranged but then earth and water are melee. Every other weapon is either all melee or all range. Very strange.
2. The hammer's swirls are a primary mechanic with powerful effects but what a pain trying to keep them active. Fun for a short time but gets tiring.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

Luckily you don't have to bother with Hammer if you don't find it enjoyable. IIRC the most optimal Catalyst build now uses Sword/Warhorn.

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, raykor.6723 said:

I know it's been out for quite a while but just getting around to trying it. My first two observations are:

1. The hammer's fire and air skills are ranged but then earth and water are melee. Every other weapon is either all melee or all range. Very strange.

Every other profession can switch between melee and ranged through weaponswapping (or kits in engineer's case). Elementalist can't, apart from in a very clunky way with conjures. Having a weapon that's ranged on some attunements but melee on others would allow elementalist to reproduce this behaviour.

Why do I say 'would'? Because hammer doesn't go far enough... partially literally. Range is too short, projectile speed too slow (if you're running forward the projectiles will barely get out of melee range before they disappear) and fire still has a melee cooldown skill and a spread skill that requires being in melee for the best damage unless the enemy has a large hitbox. It's really basically dagger 2.0: a melee weapon with some attacks that extend beyond melee range.

8 hours ago, raykor.6723 said:

2. The hammer's swirls are a primary mechanic with powerful effects but what a pain trying to keep them active. Fun for a short time but gets tiring.

Agreed. I can see what they were going for, but it really just feels like busywork aimed at enforcing regular attunement switching across all four attunements (and to a greater degree than even Weave Self).

[Jury Duty.3704]

I just started playing GW2, not even to the first expansion. Chose elementalist then catalyst as my first level 80. I'm rank 10 pvp, 8WvW, 60% map completion and just started Living Season 2 all on my catalyst. It's been an.. interesting class.

Attunement swapping, jade sphear, the spinning orbs, cooldowns, enemy mechanics, rage changes, and aruas / correct comboing is A LOT to keep track of. And I fail at it. PvP is even worst. My hammer is my only ascended weapon so I'm using it but I liked daggers better.

Hammer just feels...sort-of mismatched as you mentioned. I like that it doesn't feel "light on my feet" quickness like daggers do: it feels heavy and hard hitting but only sometimes; other times if feels like a bad staff.

I think if the rotating orb mechanic was made easier to activate and track (like only expires once active after Grand Finally or end of combat) and if the hammer was all-in tanky melee it would be great. I'd happily sacrifice range for a few gap closing heavy hammer hell raiser.

Then again I get that in earth attun and some utility skills. I admit it is really nifty to tackle different problems with different attunements. It just feels overly convoluted without any real reward for the challenge.

For me if the rotating orbs was made easier to interact with and the hammer felt, in all attunements, like a tankier heavy weapon it would be more enjoyable.

I don't know really, I'm just trying to think of ways to improve it. Maybe after more play time I'll have a different opinion. Or maybe I'll unlock tempest and play that.

[ZephidelGRS.9520]

16 minutes ago, Jury Duty.3704 said:

I just started playing GW2, not even to the first expansion. Chose elementalist then catalyst as my first level 80. I'm rank 10 pvp, 8WvW, 60% map completion and just started Living Season 2 all on my catalyst. It's been an.. interesting class.

Attunement swapping, jade sphear, the spinning orbs, cooldowns, enemy mechanics, rage changes, and aruas / correct comboing is A LOT to keep track of. And I fail at it. PvP is even worst. My hammer is my only ascended weapon so I'm using it but I liked daggers better.

Hammer just feels...sort-of mismatched as you mentioned. I like that it doesn't feel "light on my feet" quickness like daggers do: it feels heavy and hard hitting but only sometimes; other times if feels like a bad staff.

I think if the rotating orb mechanic was made easier to activate and track (like only expires once active after Grand Finally or end of combat) and if the hammer was all-in tanky melee it would be great. I'd happily sacrifice range for a few gap closing heavy hammer hell raiser.

Then again I get that in earth attun and some utility skills. I admit it is really nifty to tackle different problems with different attunements. It just feels overly convoluted without any real reward for the challenge.

For me if the rotating orbs was made easier to interact with and the hammer felt, in all attunements, like a tankier heavy weapon it would be more enjoyable.

I don't know really, I'm just trying to think of ways to improve it. Maybe after more play time I'll have a different opinion. Or maybe I'll unlock tempest and play that.

You poor soul, being a new player and yet picking Ele as your first class....

Here's a tip: Shelf/delete that Ele and roll another profession/class. I guarantee it'll make your gameplay 100% more enjoyable and worthwhile.

[Jury Duty.3704]

Ride the lightning, all the thunder effects, and the yelling of my enemies as they burn to death kept me playing the class. It's fun mobile and frantic for sure. The hammer Catalyst just feels off.

After some thought, for me it comes to two conflicting play styles: elementalist is fast high action mobile play while hammer is slow moving slow swinging impactful play.

The specialization is mashing those together - slow swinging abilities and animations with rapid button mashing and attunement swapping. To me a slower play style like tempest would work much better for hammer. Let weaver be high APM and let catalyst be a slower tempo and I think it would feel better.

Thoughts? What are your experiences with the elite spec?

Edit: for example momentum from hammer swings building up while in one attenment, or orbs building momentums while in its respective attunement. Something to slow down the play style.

Edited February 26 by Jury Duty.3704

[scerevisiae.1972]

If you go back and read the beta EOD hammer thread there was TONS of negative feedback given about this but it was basically all ignored, they just don't care.

[CETheLucid.3964]

On 2/25/2024 at 8:56 AM, raykor.6723 said:

2. The hammer's swirls are a primary mechanic with powerful effects but what a pain trying to keep them active. Fun for a short time but gets tiring.

You should give Hammer Weaver a whirl. The first bit is just getting used to the idiosyncrasies of the hammer. It is different from other ele weapons.

[Jury Duty.3704]

3 hours ago, scerevisiae.1972 said:

If you go back and read the beta EOD hammer thread there was TONS of negative feedback given about this but it was basically all ignored, they just don't care.

This makes me sad, and seems to be true for many MMOs at one point or another. I like to project positive intent and ask why feedback is ignored and assume a reasonable answer as no one benefits from an unhappy player base.

Maybe the spec balance was an issue, or internal staff turnover causing loose ends, finite resources focused elsewhere, etc.

Is hammer tempest a thing? I don't have SotO so I can't play it but maybe I could look forward to it. 

Also forgive me for slightly hijacking the thread but I appreciate the feedback and discussion. I just want a big fiery hammer to tenderize and cook my dinner at the same time without giving me carpal tunnel.

[luigrein.8514]

To be fair, they did extend the hammer 3 orb timer, they used to only last 5 seconds. It felt MORE frantic than weaver trying to keep the orbs up (and EE stacks, and aura stacks if you took those traits.)

 

Re: hammer tempest. Don't see why it wouldn't work and pretty sure I've heard of people running it before. Haven't really tried it though, I do quick hammer catalyst in OW lately so usually if I'm on tempest it's to provide the team healing which... hammer doesn't really do.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

at some point before EoD, players wanted to play dps while being able to use all the attunements. hence catalyst and its hammer was made, where the intended gameplay loop was to cycle through all attunements to build up orbs (thereby making all attunements "useful") and unleash a big attack (grand finale). so its probably always going to be a bit hard on the apm

hammer was always more of a melee weapon with some range capability. it actually used to revolve around hitting enemies with the hammer orbs, which used to deal substantial damage and orbit a bit further away from the ele (it would miss smaller targets in melee range)

hammer is slow because its a hammer, and the reason for giving catalyst specifically a hammer was something along the lines of "well we decided to give ele hammer". it probably didnt matter much overall because the weapon skills were mostly designed as extras on top of the main orb/grand finale + jade sphere gameplay. now it just ends up as every other slow hammer

[draxynnic.3719]

One of the big meta-complaints for catalyst was that it basically feels like weaver 2.0 with a bit of tempest mixed in, or even a bit like weaver in training wheels mode (although two-attunement weaver with sword or scepter might actually be easier). Considered in isolation, it's not bad, but in the context, tempest and weaver should have been followed by something with a more distinctive playstyle.

[Doggie.3184]

I still think the Hammer should be 100% ranged and Sword adopt the melee+range mix instead. 🙂Spinny orbs could be deleted, idc.

Hopefully Anet's resident Ele main picks up "Dragons Dogma 2" and sees what real caster spells look like (Sorcerer). 

[draxynnic.3719]

17 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I still think the Hammer should be 100% ranged and Sword adopt the melee+range mix instead. 🙂Spinny orbs could be deleted, idc.

Hopefully Anet's resident Ele main picks up "Dragons Dogma 2" and sees what real caster spells look like (Sorcerer). 

Eh, I think sword is fine as-is, and hammer really mostly needs 900 range and faster projectiles on the ranged skills. And then for ArenaNet to consider meleementalist done for a bit and focus on ranged options that are actually good in the future, ideally including a range-focused elite spec to back it up.

[Helgaley.3619]

On 2/25/2024 at 5:56 AM, raykor.6723 said:

I know it's been out for quite a while but just getting around to trying it. My first two observations are:

1. The hammer's fire and air skills are ranged but then earth and water are melee. Every other weapon is either all melee or all range. Very strange.
2. The hammer's swirls are a primary mechanic with powerful effects but what a pain trying to keep them active. Fun for a short time but gets tiring.

You should have seen the beta preview video for catalyst where they tried to introduce it as a "traditional mage" style class. Lol. 

Your points about hammer are spot on, and they've been said before many, many times. It's a frantic and awkward weapon that nobody asked for and few people enjoy. The niche that it fills, or at least filled before weaponmaster, is that the orbs allow you to efficiently build energy to place the jade sphere down for buffs/DPS. 

[Doggie.3184]

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Eh, I think sword is fine as-is, and hammer really mostly needs 900 range and faster projectiles on the ranged skills. And then for ArenaNet to consider meleementalist done for a bit and focus on ranged options that are actually good in the future, ideally including a range-focused elite spec to back it up.

I just find it miserable to be 100% melee as an Ele honestly since no weapon swap. Hard to fully enjoy the sword. Like on Engi you always got Mortar or Grenades for moments you can't melee. Hammer feels like a redo of Sword, giving it the mix of range/melee it should've had, but then ruined with the orb mechanic.

Hammer could have been a long range nuke weapon that was slow but hit hard for that pure caster fantasy that Staff doesn't fully embrace and the class is missing overall.

Edited February 27 by Doggie.3184

[Sythus.2396]

2 hours ago, Helgaley.3619 said:

You should have seen the beta preview video for catalyst where they tried to introduce it as a "traditional mage" style class. Lol. 

Your points about hammer are spot on, and they've been said before many, many times. It's a frantic and awkward weapon that nobody asked for and few people enjoy. The niche that it fills, or at least filled before weaponmaster, is that the orbs allow you to efficiently build energy to place the jade sphere down for buffs/DPS. 

Pretty much this but unfortunately it keeps falling on deaf ears. I genuinely want to know what went on internally for them to decide on Hammer. 
I've given up on expecting a decent range option on Ele, like many others probably. Bet the next weapon after pistol will be off-hand Sword.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

2 hours ago, Sythus.2396 said:

I genuinely want to know what went on internally for them to decide on Hammer.

a reasonable guess is because they already planned out the orb mechanic before deciding on the weapon

• 4 dead skills -> needs to be a 2h weapon
• orbs planned to deal damage -> fits a melee weapon better (imagine getting longbow/rifle with a melee mechanic)
• two options left: greatsword or hammer

its possible they could have made it the espec mechanic, but there wouldve certainly been complaints about another melee ele espec. if they knew that orbs would end up getting nerfed, then they may have given catalyst a non-melee 2h weapon instead and considered something other than a hit-based energy mechanic

[crosknight.3041]

i will DIE on the hill that hammer 3 across all attunements shoulda been the catalysts spec mechanic

600 range should have also been the range across all the attunements as well

[Sythus.2396]

1 hour ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

a reasonable guess is because they already planned out the orb mechanic before deciding on the weapon

• 4 dead skills -> needs to be a 2h weapon
• orbs planned to deal damage -> fits a melee weapon better (imagine getting longbow/rifle with a melee mechanic)
• two options left: greatsword or hammer

its possible they could have made it the espec mechanic, but there wouldve certainly been complaints about another melee ele espec. if they knew that orbs would end up getting nerfed, then they may have given catalyst a non-melee 2h weapon instead and considered something other than a hit-based energy mechanic

That's a possibility yeah. However, surely they would have known how poorly it would be received, given the forums are full of comments from people wanting an actual ranged option. 
They could have at least made the range on Fire/Air skills 900.

[Jski.6180]

The range skills need to be 900 and travel though the air not along the ground (air 1). I would not mind seeing the orb become more of an lob when you fire them with an impact aoe less of an peers (though you could keep an peers at close range.) On the melee side we need to see more movement and self def so water melee skills should be more leaps and evasion rain of blows and most earth skill should be an block (not just projiceal block). Its very odd that hammer has an real lock of movement evasion effects.

[Helgaley.3619]

8 hours ago, Sythus.2396 said:

Pretty much this but unfortunately it keeps falling on deaf ears. I genuinely want to know what went on internally for them to decide on Hammer. 
I've given up on expecting a decent range option on Ele, like many others probably. Bet the next weapon after pistol will be off-hand Sword.

Anet always seems to try and pick a direction that nobody is really expecting, and sometimes it works, like with rev and mesmer having hammers and greatswords as ranged weapons, but hammer for catalyst definitely doesn't work. It seems like they just wanted to be different for the sake of being different, but the reality is that hammer is just an entirely arbitrary choice that doesn't even fit the class. It offers nothing that couldn't have been achieved by going with a weapon the players actually wanted, like long bow or rifle, but that isn't how Anet operates. 

[Sweetbread.3678]

At first I saw Hammer and was pretty much like "wtf is this kitten?", but it's definitely grown on me over time to the point that it's probably my favorite Ele weapon now. It doesn't work in every spec/situation, but once I got that quick Cata rotation down it became really apparent how fluid and well designed it actually is. It's just made with a very specific playstyle in mind; probably moreso than any other espec weapon besides Deadeye's rifle. The weapon type seemed pretty out-of-the-blue at first too, but now I can appreciate the sort of Avatar style elemental warrior thing they were going for and how it fits in as a spec from Cantha. It was admittedly a weird choice to do another melee weapon for Ele, but I also think a lot of people are evaluating the hammer based on what they wanted it to be instead of on what the designers were actually trying to do with it.

[draxynnic.3719]

23 hours ago, Helgaley.3619 said:

You should have seen the beta preview video for catalyst where they tried to introduce it as a "traditional mage" style class. Lol. 

Your points about hammer are spot on, and they've been said before many, many times. It's a frantic and awkward weapon that nobody asked for and few people enjoy. The niche that it fills, or at least filled before weaponmaster, is that the orbs allow you to efficiently build energy to place the jade sphere down for buffs/DPS. 

Strictly speaking, if you use a ranged weapon and were in a mode where the spheres didn't do damage, it does have a bit of that 'traditional mage' feel. Problem is that when Catalyst released, all the ele ranged weapons just sucked (scepter is decent now...watch this space for condi scepter nerfs when they decide they want to force pistol use) and in PvE the spheres DO do significant damage, so in practice they behave like guardian symbols: you want both yourself and your enemy in them, so you can't be too far away from the enemy.

23 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

I just find it miserable to be 100% melee as an Ele honestly since no weapon swap. Hard to fully enjoy the sword. Like on Engi you always got Mortar or Grenades for moments you can't melee. Hammer feels like a redo of Sword, giving it the mix of range/melee it should've had, but then ruined with the orb mechanic.

Hammer could have been a long range nuke weapon that was slow but hit hard for that pure caster fantasy that Staff doesn't fully embrace and the class is missing overall.

Staff could have been that too...

Sword being (nearly) all melee is something that a lot of people were asking for, and if conjured weapons got a proper fix, you could get range that way. Hammer is almost the hybrid weapon (the orbs actually striking enemies only matters for Catalyst), it just needs:

13 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

The range skills need to be 900 and travel though the air not along the ground (air 1). I would not mind seeing the orb become more of an lob when you fire them with an impact aoe less of an peers (though you could keep an peers at close range.) On the melee side we need to see more movement and self def so water melee skills should be more leaps and evasion rain of blows and most earth skill should be an block (not just projiceal block). Its very odd that hammer has an real lock of movement evasion effects.

I think the projectile velocities need to be higher too. They feel even slower than guardian scepter.

29 minutes ago, Sweetbread.3678 said:

At first I saw Hammer and was pretty much like "wtf is this kitten?", but it's definitely grown on me over time to the point that it's probably my favorite Ele weapon now. It doesn't work in every spec/situation, but once I got that quick Cata rotation down it became really apparent how fluid and well designed it actually is. It's just made with a very specific playstyle in mind; probably moreso than any other espec weapon besides Deadeye's rifle. The weapon type seemed pretty out-of-the-blue at first too, but now I can appreciate the sort of Avatar style elemental warrior thing they were going for and how it fits in as a spec from Cantha. It was admittedly a weird choice to do another melee weapon for Ele, but I also think a lot of people are evaluating the hammer based on what they wanted it to be instead of on what the designers were actually trying to do with it.

Catalyst, including hammer, probably would have been fine if it had been the second or fourth elite specialisation added. However, making 3/3 elementalist elite specialisations melee-oriented to a greater or lesser degree followed by casting reasonable doubt on whether there'd ever be a fourth was incredibly tone deaf.

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 2/27/2024 at 3:31 PM, Doggie.3184 said:

I still think the Hammer should be 100% ranged

nah not 100% ranged, just made to be actually 60-40 ranged not the 30-70 melee-ranged split it currently is, since that is actually a unique niche.