Stealth needs a downside (in competitive modes)

[igmolicious.5986]

9 minutes ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

You know what I think would be a perfect solution to all of this? Someone above...let's see if I can find them...

Oh wait! Those were all you! Anyway, I think that's actually the fix we need for this. I think if I had to make a change to stealth, I would make it so stealth breaks on damage. Not just AOE, but any damage, or if we want to be generous, just strike damage. That way if you're poisoned you can still try to slink away into the shadows. But if strike damage could reveal, not to extra damage but just reveal, it would effectively counter it. Then wild swings or saturation bombing with AoEs would give an element of counterplay. Now ironicly this is roughly the same tactic as I said above with bring a friend just in a different form. Either way you're just adding more power. One is widespread effect, the other is an additional body, and as a mesmer lemme tell you not to underestimate having another or three bodies around you. Thieves are precision strikers. Pick a target, destroy the target. The opposite of precision is broad and blunt. So that's the counterplay, and if strike damage inflicted revealed I think that would solve everything.

So the solution is to have an aoe-heavy build as well as a lot of luck and a thief that doesn't have the patience to wait you out or ability to move out of aoes?

Side note: mesmer clones can confuse some people, but it's pretty easy to learn to pick the target with either the least health (if burst has started) or most boons (the one with chaos aura is also a pretty easy way to identify in most cases). Additionally, if you do the "call target" thing and they don't invis or target break with a skill, they keep the target icon above them.

Other side note: I would totally be on board with strike damage turning off stealth.

Edited March 8 by igmolicious.5986

[ShadowKatt.6740]

26 minutes ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

So the solution is to have an aoe-heavy build as well as a lot of luck and a thief that doesn't have the patience to wait you out or ability to move out of aoes?

. . . yes.

I feel like you probably didn't mean that as snarky as I took it, but I'm still taking it that way because I think it's important. Don't forget that the thief you're fighting is also a player. And every countermove we're talking about, they're going to discuss over in the Thief subforum and they're gonna develop counterplays to what we discuss here today. So when you say a thief that doesn't have a lot of patience...yeah, exactly. That IS the counterplay. The thief intentionally reveals themselves, takes a pot shot, and disappears. Wait for you to exhaust everything you have trying to drive them off....and THEN pounce. Just because it CAN be countered doesn't make it a bad strategy. It just means it needs to have altneratives to be more robust. Thief has stealth, you have AoEs. You have limited ammunition, they have patience. So now we fall back to Bring a Friend. Now you've doubled your skills that can be brought to bare, doubled how patient they have to be. This isn't OW PvE where you just have to figure out the right way to fight the boss and you're set. They're going to adapt and learn as well. We're trying to balance, not completely negate their profession mechanics.

That's why I said strike damage is a good compromise. Does it rely on luck? Yes, to a small to moderate degree. Large cleaving weapons and AoEs become your best friends, with a little experience and intuition. Or maybe condi builds. If you can inflict enough torment, poison, burning on the thief then even stealth might not save them as they retreat. The funny think about balancing is that you're actually seeking the point where NO ONE wins, and after that you need skill to tip the balance, and the counterplays I've suggested are that point. The point where neither party wants to play because both lose.

How about instead a nice game of chess?

[igmolicious.5986]

1 hour ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

. . . yes.

I feel like you probably didn't mean that as snarky as I took it, but I'm still taking it that way because I think it's important. Don't forget that the thief you're fighting is also a player. And every countermove we're talking about, they're going to discuss over in the Thief subforum and they're gonna develop counterplays to what we discuss here today. So when you say a thief that doesn't have a lot of patience...yeah, exactly. That IS the counterplay. The thief intentionally reveals themselves, takes a pot shot, and disappears. Wait for you to exhaust everything you have trying to drive them off....and THEN pounce. Just because it CAN be countered doesn't make it a bad strategy. It just means it needs to have altneratives to be more robust. Thief has stealth, you have AoEs. You have limited ammunition, they have patience. So now we fall back to Bring a Friend. Now you've doubled your skills that can be brought to bare, doubled how patient they have to be. This isn't OW PvE where you just have to figure out the right way to fight the boss and you're set. They're going to adapt and learn as well. We're trying to balance, not completely negate their profession mechanics.

That's why I said strike damage is a good compromise. Does it rely on luck? Yes, to a small to moderate degree. Large cleaving weapons and AoEs become your best friends, with a little experience and intuition. Or maybe condi builds. If you can inflict enough torment, poison, burning on the thief then even stealth might not save them as they retreat. The funny think about balancing is that you're actually seeking the point where NO ONE wins, and after that you need skill to tip the balance, and the counterplays I've suggested are that point. The point where neither party wants to play because both lose.

How about instead a nice game of chess?

I ABSOLUTELY think that having strike damage remove stealth (even without causing any reveal application) would be a great solution to perma-stealth. I don't, however, believe that aoe-bombing and hoping for the best case in the current state of stealth is a solution at all (maybe it's just wvw, but perma-stealthers are very patient and very few people outside of a zerg will stand in the red circles, much less choose to move through them if they aren't harried in some other way), nor do I support the idea of any profession requiring more than one person to fight it effectively. I am not against any profession having mechanics that allow them to stealth, I just feel like, as with conditions and stuns, every profession should have SOME method to counter it in the core profession itself -- your suggested strike damage would cover this in a great way in my opinion, but I would honestly even be fine with just giving everyone access to reveal in their core profession abilities or traits.

Edited March 8 by igmolicious.5986

[Antrix.4512]

8 hours ago, Sonork.2916 said:

I would love to see an ANET dev fight a good thief.

Just replace "thief" with "profession_name" and the meaning won't change.

[AliamRationem.5172]

15 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

The bigger problem most of the time is mobility and the relative inability to punish the thief unless you're one yourself, usually.
They could make some smaller changes, like reveal on block, making reveal skills better, but that stuff isn't going to help that much. The only one that actually scares a decent thief is Lock On.

It's part of why for so long thief was meta defining and the team with the better one won, and the only way they could figure out how to address it was adding more and more initiative cost to SB5.

Mobility is also a problem, yes.  The general mistake GW2 is making in its competitive class design is that it's far too easy for players to disengage (via stealth or mobility or both), either partially or fully resetting the fight, forcing a stalemate (i.e. you cut and run, opponent expends resources to follow, now you're back to square one), or simply walking away.  In my opinion, and apparently in the opinions of the developers of every other MMO I've played, that isn't conducive to engaging PvP.  It would be better if we did more combat and less disengaging.  Call me crazy.

[Malus.2184]

On 3/6/2024 at 3:21 PM, igmolicious.5986 said:

2. While stealthed, gain a stack of "mental fatigue" each second. When stealth is broken, mental fatigue would convert into 1 second of revealed (could even have a trait to reduce the conversion a bit). This would allow for permanent stealth to set up ambush attacks, but would prevent withdrawing into stealth immediately, and would make withdrawing from fights against high-mobility opponents (like willbender or other thieves) more difficult.

4. Damage taken while in stealth increased by 50%. Perma-stealth still do-able but risky if facing AOE-heavy or condition-heavy builds.

2. Resembles an idea I've had. When entering stealth the player gets a Grace period. During the period the character is unable to Stealth again or benefit from Teleports (Ei. you Stealth and no more Shortbow 3). Thieves get compensated by having more health and some protection tools to compensate for being vulnerable more often. Revealed is removed from the game as a mechanic as the answer to one OP ability is never to make another ability that nullifies it since that just makes it even more OP unless you have the counter. Guards and Towers in WvW gets their "Reveal" replaced by "Marked" which temporarily goes away when stealthed. Player Skills that give Reveal now give Grace Period instead. You're now also revealed from stealth the moment you use any action save for Dodge and for Moving.

4. No. Thieves already occupy the weird spot in WvW where their Stealth makes them OP for roaming and in Zerg content they just explode due to a combination of low health and only stealth as a defense which still makes you take all the AoE damage while giving little protection. This would just make them explode faster.

Edited March 8 by Malus.2184

[Leger.3724]

22 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Mobility is also a problem, yes.  The general mistake GW2 is making in its competitive class design is that it's far too easy for players to disengage (via stealth or mobility or both), either partially or fully resetting the fight, forcing a stalemate (i.e. you cut and run, opponent expends resources to follow, now you're back to square one), or simply walking away.  In my opinion, and apparently in the opinions of the developers of every other MMO I've played, that isn't conducive to engaging PvP.  It would be better if we did more combat and less disengaging.  Call me crazy.

Some developers probably feel this way but we were at a point of no return in Heart of Thorns when they introduced specializations and drastically increased the skillbars of most professions.

I think thief highlights the problem you described the most. They're the best at engaging, disengaging and controlling the pace of the fight.

You're right it's not just a Thief problem. People hate Willbender in WvW because it does the a decent job at what the Thief does with strong damage/sustain. 

[felincyriac.5981]

its a lost cause dude, pvp in this game is a joke. If you take it seriously then you are just doing a disservice to your mental health. 

[ShadowKatt.6740]

6 minutes ago, felincyriac.5981 said:

its a lost cause dude, pvp in this game is a joke. If you take it seriously then you are just doing a disservice to your mental health. 

Hence why I don't PvP. I get waaaaaaaaay to angry when I just get assassinated with no chance to fight back. And I'm a mesmer. We're supposed to be un-catch-able. Just steer clear of all of it.

[Antrix.4512]

7 hours ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

Never ceases to amaze me how quickly people resort to ad hominem when they can't defend their position with reason or civil discussion, especially so when it comes to a game. Just because you don't agree with a topic, doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed.

21 hours ago, ShadowKatt.6740 said:

You seem to have understood absolutely nothing. Let me explain a bit more clearly - who are you for ANet to heed your opinion (notice, just as mine)? Are you some top 10 player of your class? Do you understand the mechanics of at least one class well and have you contributed to the community in any way - maybe you're a streamer or the author of numerous builds who has been supporting his cause for years? No, you're nobody and you have absolutely nothing - you're just whining on the forum that stealth needs to be nerfed because YOU find it inconvenient to play against thieves. And you're not here to discuss anything, as you replied to me in one of the messages - you're looking for like-minded people, just as disgruntled, owned by thieves in PvP.

And by asking you questions like the above, I will also refer to myself - I haven't made any contribution to the game's community, I haven't been involved with builds, I haven't streamed discussing patch notes and analyzing class mechanics changes like MightyTeaPot, Mukluk, and others did. I haven't made any healing guides like the incomparable @Lucinellia.9247. I haven't done anything like that, and regarding classes, I understand, I believe, at a relatively good level ONLY my class, and I came to this after 1000+ hours. Therefore, I don't sit and whine on the forum to nerf some class because I find it inconvenient to play against that class. My only complaints were mainly about bug fixes, which have already celebrated not their first anniversary.

Don't take this as an insult or anything like that, but as information for reflection.

Edited March 8 by Antrix.4512

[Leger.3724]

12 minutes ago, Antrix.4512 said:

Don't take this as an insult or anything like that, but as information for reflection.

I think you need to reflect. Almost nobody pvps among the small community that is GW2 relative to other MMOs.

It should not matter what anyone in GW2 pvp thinks about GW2 pvp. It's bad and nobody plays it so there is no competition by definition of nobody playing it.

The people who wanted a competitive experience left the game a decade ago.

Maybe now you'll understand. You don't know balance. You don't know competition. And that's why you play GW2.

 

[Antrix.4512]

13 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

I think you need to reflect. Almost nobody pvps among the small community that is GW2 relative to other MMOs.

It should not matter what anyone in GW2 pvp thinks about GW2 pvp. It's bad and nobody plays it so there is no competition by definition of nobody playing it.

The people who wanted a competitive experience left the game a decade ago.

Maybe now you'll understand. You don't know balance. You don't know competition. And that's why you play GW2.

 

Buddy, I think you're firing in the wrong direction 😁 And don't think about me, I'll manage somehow on my own 😉

Edited March 8 by Antrix.4512

[wolfer.7945]

Really, stealth is no great tool.  It really only good to reset, or surprise attack.  It does not by itself make you take less damage or do more damage.

 

None of the items recommended in the starting post would be good or fun.  

 

Learn to play against it.

[igmolicious.5986]

3 hours ago, Antrix.4512 said:

You seem to have understood absolutely nothing. Let me explain a bit more clearly - who are you for ANet to heed your opinion (notice, just as mine)? Are you some top 10 player of your class? Do you understand the mechanics of at least one class well and have you contributed to the community in any way - maybe you're a streamer or the author of numerous builds who has been supporting his cause for years? No, you're nobody and you have absolutely nothing - you're just whining on the forum that stealth needs to be nerfed because YOU find it inconvenient to play against thieves. And you're not here to discuss anything, as you replied to me in one of the messages - you're looking for like-minded people, just as disgruntled, owned by thieves in PvP.

And by asking you questions like the above, I will also refer to myself - I haven't made any contribution to the game's community, I haven't been involved with builds, I haven't streamed discussing patch notes and analyzing class mechanics changes like MightyTeaPot, Mukluk, and others did. I haven't made any healing guides like the incomparable @Lucinellia.9247. I haven't done anything like that, and regarding classes, I understand, I believe, at a relatively good level ONLY my class, and I came to this after 1000+ hours. Therefore, I don't sit and whine on the forum to nerf some class because I find it inconvenient to play against that class. My only complaints were mainly about bug fixes, which have already celebrated not their first anniversary.

Don't take this as an insult or anything like that, but as information for reflection.

And you seem to be mistaking this public forum for a game for the ANet board room. If only the top 10 players and biggest streamers were supposed to post here, the forums would be empty. My opinion on a mechanic in this game is valid as a player of this game, regardless of whether you or any other player on here agrees. These forums are a place for all players to discuss the game, and the rules set by ANet are what determines what can and can't be posted about here. If you don't feel like your opinion matters because of your contributions or lack thereof,  that's your right, but your opinion on that does not determine that for anyone but you. If Anet chooses to completely ignore every thread on here, that's their choice, but I suspect that they not only read, but want player feedback from all of their playerbase that is willing to participate, not just the "top" players, even if those players opinions hold higher value to them in some way or another. 

Side note: no one on here has been whining about anything mechanics related, we have been discussing, which is something people do to trade and improve ideas. The only whining I have seen so far is you complaining about people discussing a game mechanic on that game's public forum.

Edited March 8 by igmolicious.5986

[igmolicious.5986]

1 hour ago, wolfer.7945 said:

Really, stealth is no great tool.  It really only good to reset, or surprise attack.  It does not by itself make you take less damage or do more damage.

 

None of the items recommended in the starting post would be good or fun.  

 

Learn to play against it.

I mean, techinically it does make you do more damage through the stealth attack that becomes available on thief, but I agree on other professions that it doesn't. The reset is the main issue, as it allows players to essentially get out of combat by not only becoming completely invisible but also immune to any skill that requires a target, essentially allowing ending combat at will whenever you choose during a fight with no real way for most specs to count if they are on the other end. As I mentioned in an earlier post (not the original one, but a bit later on) I would be fine with a solution of just giving every profession some access to reveal in their core kit, which seems very much in line with how conditions and stuns are covered in core kits with cleanses and stunbreaks.

Edited March 8 by igmolicious.5986

[Sonork.2916]

9 hours ago, Antrix.4512 said:

Just replace "thief" with "profession_name" and the meaning won't change.

There's a difference between losing a fight, and never being able to meaningfully engage your opponent before you're dead.

[Antrix.4512]

5 minutes ago, Sonork.2916 said:

There's a difference between losing a fight, and never being able to meaningfully engage your opponent before you're dead.

If you can't engage in combat with a thief before you're dead... I have a very bad news for you 😂

2 hours ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

Side note: no one on here has been whining about anything mechanics related, we have been discussing, which is something people do to trade and improve ideas. The only whining I have seen so far is you complaining about people discussing a game mechanic on that game's public forum.

You're not discussing anything; from the start, you've been pushing absurd proposals to nerf stealth because you're uncomfortable playing against a thief and you don't know how to play against a thief. Let me repeat - learn to play. I have nothing more to discuss with you, don't bother replying, don't waste your energy and your keyboard switches resource 😘

Edited March 9 by Antrix.4512

[igmolicious.5986]

15 minutes ago, Sonork.2916 said:

There's a difference between losing a fight, and never being able to meaningfully engage your opponent before you're dead.

Agreed, but you're wasting your time responding to him. He's honestly not here for discussion.

[igmolicious.5986]

1 hour ago, Antrix.4512 said:

You're not discussing anything; from the start, you've been pushing absurd proposals to nerf stealth because you're uncomfortable playing against a thief and you don't know how to play against a thief. Let me repeat - learn to play. I have nothing more to discuss with you, don't bother replying, don't waste your energy and your keyboard switches resource 😘

Honest question, since I suspect you haven't actually been reading the posts other than the ones you are replying to: what is your stance on giving all core professions at least 1 method of applying revealed and leaving stealth untouched?

[Antrix.4512]

7 minutes ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

leaving stealth untouched

How about only... this one☝️?

😉

Edited March 9 by Antrix.4512

[wolfer.7945]

3 hours ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

I mean, techinically it does make you do more damage through the stealth attack that becomes available on thief, but I agree on other professions that it doesn't. The reset is the main issue, as it allows players to essentially get out of combat by not only becoming completely invisible but also immune to any skill that requires a target, essentially allowing ending combat at will whenever you choose during a fight with no real way for most specs to count if they are on the other end. As I mentioned in an earlier post (not the original one, but a bit later on) I would be fine with a solution of just giving every profession some access to reveal in their core kit, which seems very much in line with how conditions and stuns are covered in core kits with cleanses and stunbreaks.

I would need to check the math.  But I feel sneak attack as meant to do the same amount of damage as other classes in the time you were stealthed.  So not doing damage you get good damage.

The skills that need a target are not great in their own and could use some help.

 

As for every class having a reveal,  I disagree.  Unless you give stealth classes a way to peal reveal off.  And we all know how well that worked in PvP and WvW.

One thing I would agree to is a hard cap on stealth.  Or a scaling reveal based on how long your in stealth.  

Like stealth for 1-3 seconds get 3 seconds of revealed.  4-10 get 5 seconds. 11-29 gets 8.  And if you get to 30 you get knocked out and revealed for 10 seconds. 

Though this may still be too tight.

Edited March 9 by wolfer.7945

[igmolicious.5986]

21 minutes ago, Antrix.4512 said:

How about only... this one☝️?

😉

Cool! Suspected that was your stance, but wanted to be sure. It's not about just not wanting stealth nerfed, it's also about not wanting people to have even a single way counter to it. Glad to know for sure your stance and why you were so adamant that no one talk about it.

[Antrix.4512]

22 minutes ago, igmolicious.5986 said:

Cool! Suspected that was your stance, but wanted to be sure. It's not about just not wanting stealth nerfed, it's also about not wanting people to have even a single way counter to it. Glad to know for sure your stance and why you were so adamant that no one talk about it.

I think you should try playing as a thief yourself to see how it works. I agree with you - everyone should have their own opinion. But trust me, your thread is neither the first nor the last. Every class has its strengths, many specs are counter-specs to others, having very strong sides that others can hardly counter.

Don't be lazy, find the time, try playing as a thief. This is a friendly advice, without any sarcasm or anything like that. Especially since GW2 is the most alt-friendly in this regard, and you won't even need to level up and gear up a character.

Someone made the point, "have the developers ever tried playing against a skilled thief?" - well, this applies to all classes and specs. To all of them, really. Any skilled player (no matter which spec/class) can do god kitten magic. Yes, PvP in GW2 is not in its best shape, but it's not in its best shape anywhere unless we're talking about something where everything is homogenized, and there's no difference between opponents other than skill. But this is an MMORPG, not CS2/Quake or the like. PvP in general is the kitten of MMORPGs. A scourge that shouldn't even be added to the game as such. In PvP modes of such games, it's impossible to create balance, only to nerf/buff all classes in random order to the kitten ground as Blizzard does.

Such "non-complaint" topics have always existed and will always exist. Just in this case, everything works RELATIVELY okay, as much as possible (although yes, various patches will be released from time to time). And since playing as a thief is not as easy as it's written in such threads, then before ANet (if theoretically, they listen to such "discussions"), a dilemma arises - to please a few players who feel discomfort in combat with a thief (don't know how to play, haven't figured it out, and don't know what to counter other classes with), or to lose from 15% to 40% (depending on the severity of the nerf) of the thief population. And I'm not talking about rerolling here.

And if it were only about PvP balance - well, let them balance it as they wish, I play PvP occasionally and don't take wins or losses personally, nothing irritates me there. If you listen to my advice (genuinely friendly, believe it or not) and you, like that Rogue from WoW (who, playing another class once said - Rogues are OP. They told him - prove it. He proved it, becoming one of the top Rogues. After that, Blizzard made changes to the class), prove by your example that thieves are OP - I will agree with you and publicly apologize for disagreeing.

Just... give it a chance, see for yourself, in the thief's shoes. And also I want to apologize to you for being harsh in some of my previous posts.

[Dadnir.5038]

On 3/8/2024 at 9:15 AM, Sonork.2916 said:

I would love to see an ANET dev fight a good thief.

I don't think it would be even close to be a "fight".

[Sonork.2916]

39 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I don't think it would be even close to be a "fight".

Exactly.  It wouldn't.  As it isn't for almost all players.