Hmm

[bethekey.8314]

Hmm

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Bro got tired of losing and turned on cheat engine 😭😭

[arazoth.7290]

8 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Bro got tired of losing and turned on cheat engine 😭😭

anime plot armor protogonist

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

1 minute ago, arazoth.7290 said:

anime plot armor protogonist

His theme music started playing

why'd you look away from him like "It's over", don't you know how that ends ☠️

Edited April 1 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Virdo.1540]

Looks more like a ping issue

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

27 minutes ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Looks more like a ping issue

Jokes aside it's probably this. Looks like bulls charge from vengeance, maybe it was started at the little ledge between the ramp and the upper platform and didn't update the warrior at Woodstock's position until it connected.

As usual.

You keep finding weird ways to get cced I don't know what to tell you.  I choose to believe for my personal docket that he went out of his way to speedhack just to cc lock you though. 

[bethekey.8314]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Bro got tired of losing and turned on cheat engine 😭😭

3 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

anime plot armor protogonist

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

His theme music started playing

why'd you look away from him like "It's over", don't you know how that ends ☠️

😂

3 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Looks more like a ping issue

Idk maybe, but my ping is consistently below 100 and didn't have any issues like this the entire game/play session. Clearly this moment stood out enough for me to hit record.

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Jokes aside it's probably this. Looks like bulls charge from vengeance, maybe it was started at the little ledge between the ramp and the upper platform and didn't update the warrior at Woodstock's position until it connected.

As usual.

You keep finding weird ways to get cced I don't know what to tell you.  I choose to believe for my personal docket that he went out of his way to speedhack just to cc lock you though. 

It's almost like having a fire-and-forget skill that evades, doesn't require LoS, goes around corners, auto-positions around frontal blocks, goes over air gaps, and doesn't require character models to even connect to hit, is bad design for online games. If it was a properly telegraphed charge, I could have dodged it. But instead we get these situations where either: 1) I got hit due to the game itself, not the enemy player 2) the player did use a teleport cheat in combination with Bulls Charge, but we can't really tell because of the skill design and the potential for random internet things.

Classes with this sort of plausible deniability in cheating are breeding grounds for it. In the case of Bull's Charge, I think it should require valid paths to target like teleports and the two player models to connect to hit. These are not the case as documented by my other two Bull's Charge videos. The skill is a problem in this game context, and is overly forgiving to Warrior players.

Edited April 1 by bethekey.8314

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

38 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

😂

Idk maybe, but my ping is consistently below 100 and didn't have any issues like this the entire game/play session. Clearly this moment stood out enough for me to hit record.

It's almost like having a fire-and-forget skill that evades, doesn't require LoS, goes around corners, auto-positions around frontal blocks, goes over air gaps, and doesn't require character models to even connect to hit, is bad design for online games. If it was a properly telegraphed charge, I could have dodged it. But instead we get these situations where either: 1) I got hit due to the game itself, not the enemy player 2) the player did use a teleport cheat in combination with Bulls Charge, but we can't really tell because of the skill design and the potential for random internet things.

Classes with this sort of plausible deniability in cheating are breeding grounds for it. In the case of Bull's Charge, I think it should require valid paths to target like teleports and the two player models to connect to hit. These are not the case as documented by my other two Bull's Charge videos. The skill is a problem in this game context, and is overly forgiving to Warrior players.

Point of interest. Bulls Charge can be retargeted, so the warrior can use it to go up the ramp without having targeted you and then target you one you are in the LOS and pathing is correct to redirect to you. So, takes more skill than a shadowstep or teleport in the end. Still, him disappearing like that is sus af. It's either bad internet involved or someone began their villain arc with a cheat code.

[arazoth.7290]

Can you edit the video with some anime naruto protagonist music at that exact moment and post it here 😂?

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Point of interest. Bulls Charge can be retargeted, so the warrior can use it to go up the ramp without having targeted you and then target you one you are in the LOS and pathing is correct to redirect to you. So, takes more skill than a shadowstep or teleport in the end. Still, him disappearing like that is sus af. It's either bad internet involved or someone began their villain arc with a cheat code.

It's a good point to make and I'm well aware of how retargeting works / the skill involved sometimes. Teleports also require their own degree of skill to be fair, like knowing how to abuse no port spots / know where the trick teleport spots are (like through the waterfall/rocks on Forest).

I specifically did not suggest LoS changes for Bulls Charge for this skillful reason. I just want to make Bulls Charge behave so it can also be reacted to in skillful ways.

[Fellknight.4820]

There is three types of players...

1. Those who are aware of cheats and know exactly what they look like and how prevalent they are in PC games.

2. The children who still believe in Santa and can't admit cheats are happening or they would rage quit.

3. The Cheaters.

Number 2 and 3 are about to flood your thread and give a whole bunch of nonsensical answers that only a noob would think. If too many number 1's reply, mod 314 will lock the thread and remove it because they believe it's still 2011 and can hide the insane amount of cheats happening. Oh moddy you'd have better luck fighting back a tidal wave then continuing this struggle, especially when we have reddit lol!

Edited April 1 by Fellknight.4820

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Can you edit the video with some anime naruto protagonist music at that exact moment and post it here 😂?

I gotchu.

 

[Shagie.7612]

55 minutes ago, Fellknight.4820 said:

the insane amount of cheats happening.

guarantee it's not happening anywhere near as much as you've convinced yourself it is lol

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I specifically did not suggest LoS changes for Bulls Charge for this skillful reason. I just want to make Bulls Charge behave so it can also be reacted to in skillful ways.

I think this last part only requires you to spend time playing with it directly to know it better and thus know how to react to it in more skillful ways.

[arazoth.7290]

56 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

I gotchu.

 

hahah wonderful 😂

 

Btw the 2 nd one might have been pressing auto attack then jump to cancel the auto attack cast, while you instantly use your leap skill.

This if done well lets you leap little higher and because of that probably little bit further. So that might have been how he reached  on the pillar.

 

[Fellknight.4820]

49 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

guarantee it's not happening anywhere near as much as you've convinced yourself it is lol

If you were right then the mod wouldn't go nuts deleting every video posted of cheating on the forums and there is A LOT! 

[bethekey.8314]

29 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

hahah wonderful 😂

 

Btw the 2 nd one might have been pressing auto attack then jump to cancel the auto attack cast, while you instantly use your leap skill.

This if done well lets you leap little higher and because of that probably little bit further. So that might have been how he reached  on the pillar.

🙂

If you're talking about jumping + Bull's Charging, you can see that they're in the Bull's Charge stance before they even round the flame pillar.

34 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I think this last part only requires you to spend time playing with it directly to know it better and thus know how to react to it in more skillful ways.

Yeah, nah. It takes an unbelievable amount of coping to see these clips and say it's my fault for getting hit by this supposed "physical", ground-bound charge that teleports and goes through walls. You're attributing excessive amounts of skill to a mediocre Warrior for simply pressing Bull's Charge, while discounting my own actions / realistic expectations based on skill mechanic knowledge.

6 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

You keep finding weird ways to get cced I don't know what to tell you. 

Azure, a person who plays Warrior, calls these interactions weird (i.e. not in line with skill knowledge) and has noted multiple times that I seem to be a magnet for these kinds of interactions / I notice them more. I think that's testament to me actually attempting to play around Bull's Charge in skillful ways, but failing due to poor design. I shouldn't have to have spider senses to play around Bull's Charge's over-tuned or inconsistent BS. It's a very impactful ability.

If you think I deserved to be hit in each of these clips, we fundamentally disagree about how skills should be designed. Note that this isn't necessarily the same as saying the Warrior didn't deserve to hit Bull's Charge. I don't know how it looked on the Warrior's screen exactly due to internet shenanigans.

This all assumes that the first Warrior didn't use some sort of teleport cheat. In this instance, the fact that it's difficult to even tell the difference between a "hack" and proper skill functioning is itself a point against Bull's Charge being well designed.

Stay sane, forums.

[Shagie.7612]

2 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

This all assumes that the first Warrior didn't use some sort of teleport cheat. In this instance, the fact that it's difficult to even tell the difference between a "hack" and proper skill functioning is itself a point against Bull's Charge being well designed.

on your very own screen he's literally like a half step away from having enough of a straight line to bull's charge up the ramp, if he's not already got enough of one
given we live in an imperfect world where latency exists, there's a possibility of a slight ping spike on your part, the server's part, or some packet loss leading to a desync on anyone's part

do you really, really think jumping to a guy turning on his hacks for a VENGEANCE, against a full hp engi as hammer is anything but an utterly ridiculous take?

surely someone who's played GW2 as much as you recognizes that an online game is sometimes imperfect and plenty of skills can scam you out when that happens

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

🙂

If you're talking about jumping + Bull's Charging, you can see that they're in the Bull's Charge stance before they even round the flame pillar.

Yeah, nah. It takes an unbelievable amount of coping to see these clips and say it's my fault for getting hit by this supposed "physical", ground-bound charge that teleports and goes through walls. You're attributing excessive amounts of skill to a mediocre Warrior for simply pressing Bull's Charge, while discounting my own actions / realistic expectations based on skill mechanic knowledge.

Azure, a person who plays Warrior, calls these interactions weird (i.e. not in line with skill knowledge) and has noted multiple times that I seem to be a magnet for these kinds of interactions / I notice them more. I think that's testament to me actually attempting to play around Bull's Charge in skillful ways, but failing due to poor design. I shouldn't have to have spider senses to play around Bull's Charge's over-tuned or inconsistent BS. It's a very impactful ability.

If you think I deserved to be hit in each of these clips, we fundamentally disagree about how skills should be designed. Note that this isn't necessarily the same as saying the Warrior didn't deserve to hit Bull's Charge. I don't know how it looked on the Warrior's screen exactly due to internet shenanigans.

This all assumes that the first Warrior didn't use some sort of teleport cheat. In this instance, the fact that it's difficult to even tell the difference between a "hack" and proper skill functioning is itself a point against Bull's Charge being well designed.

Stay sane, forums.

I believe I did call that warrior going invis sus af. They still could have used BC up the ramp and retargeted though.

My prior statement was on your global BC statement. You claim it is hard to counter, so play with it and better learn how to counter it. That's competitive play 101.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

🙂

Azure, a person who plays Warrior, calls these interactions weird (i.e. not in line with skill knowledge) and has noted multiple times that I seem to be a magnet for these kinds of interactions / I notice them more. I think that's testament to me actually attempting to play around Bull's Charge in skillful ways, but failing due to poor design. I shouldn't have to have spider senses to play around Bull's Charge's over-tuned or inconsistent BS. It's a very impactful ability.

If you think I deserved to be hit in each of these clips, we fundamentally disagree about how skills should be designed. 

Its pretty weird ye

I had an explanation for the barrel fiasco, but I got nothing for this.  Even with the barrel fiasco tech hits like that are still in the ??? Esoteric tier of "how fuzzy is this hit?" This is just-

Quote

This all assumes that the first Warrior didn't use some sort of teleport cheat. In this instance, the fact that it's difficult to even tell the difference between a "hack" and proper skill functioning is itself a point against Bull's Charge being well designed.

yeah...

I don't agree with exactly how bethekey describes bulls charge, but warrior having buggy, janky skills that don't behave in reliable ways is kind of par? Warrior does need an evasive gap closer that functions, but you can admit that and that the warrior skills show their age (and perhaps a lack of vision cohesion) constantly, including bulls charge.

Can my skills work lmao

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

18 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

 

do you really, really think jumping to a guy turning on his hacks for a VENGEANCE, against a full hp engi as hammer is anything but an utterly ridiculous take?

 

I see people this desperate constantly in the mists tbh. It was a joke, but good jokes build on a sliver of truth. 

Quote

surely someone who's played GW2 as much as you recognizes that an online game is sometimes imperfect and plenty of skills can scam you out when that happens

Yeah true.

Its also really funny that bethekey constantly gets scammed by bulls charge but I think we can be objective here, he probably should have been able to see the one class without teleports approaching regardless. 

I think the elephant in the room here is everyone has the lingering thought that reworking or adjusting the skill will make it worse because anet seems to be at a loss for how to ship warrior skills more often than not. Don't let that chill your opinion that telegraphed skills shouldn't teleport if they normally don't do that. 

Edited April 1 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[bethekey.8314]

13 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

on your very own screen he's literally like a half step away from having enough of a straight line to bull's charge up the ramp, if he's not already got enough of one
given we live in an imperfect world where latency exists, there's a possibility of a slight ping spike on your part, the server's part, or some packet loss leading to a desync on anyone's part

do you really, really think jumping to a guy turning on his hacks for a VENGEANCE, against a full hp engi as hammer is anything but an utterly ridiculous take?

surely someone who's played GW2 as much as you recognizes that an online game is sometimes imperfect and plenty of skills can scam you out when that happens

In the first instance, it's less about having a clear path, and more about him literally appearing instantly behind me like a teleport. If this was happening regularly due to bad internet, I wouldn't be posting it here / playing the game.

As for your question about people turning on hacks for losing? Absolutely that could happen. Are you not aware of how petty people are? haha

11 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I believe I did call that warrior going invis sus af. They still could have used BC up the ramp and retargeted though.

Fair. I don't have issue with the first Warrior being able to hit Bull's Charge from that angle. It's the teleport.

12 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You claim it is hard to counter, so play with it and better learn how to counter it. That's competitive play 101.

Under circumstances where the skill behaves as described, it's not hard to counter. However, it seems much more loosely restricted than other abilities, which leads to things like we see in the video. These shouldn't occur imo. My suggestions for changes (valid path to target, require character models to hit) are aimed to fix those instances.

8 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I see people this desperate constantly in the mists tbh. It was a joke but yknowww 😭

Poor, naive man actually asked if people aren't that petty haha. I've seen two thieves fight for hours in the FFA arena spamming the invuln teleport reset, refusing to leave first as that would be "losing". I myself have at least 4 trolls who will laser-focus me YEARS after incidents where I beat them/called out their BS.

13 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Its also really funny that bethekey constantly gets scammed by bulls charge but I think we can be objective here, he probably should have been able to see the one class without teleports approaching regardless. 

I think the elephant in the room here is everyone has the lingering thought that reworking or adjusting the skill will make it worse because anet seems to be at a loss for how to ship warrior skills more often than not.

I agree with all of this, including understanding Anet's track record on rebalancing / "buffing" skills only to nerf them harder than the original a few months later. Engi Rifle 1 auto and Elixir U toolbelt come to mind. I don't think my suggested changes would be that bad.

[Shagie.7612]

14 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I see people this desperate constantly in the mists tbh.

Tends to happen in an unmoderated game. Lot of people convinced everyone else is cheating when in reality it's a really small percentage, about as close to zero as you can get. Those guys who were flying above the FFA arena and in matches in EU got banned after like a week. I do think they should be faster, but in terms of the matches they populate it's an extremely small amount and in reality is a bunch of people trying to protect their ego.

14 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Its also really funny that bethekey constantly gets scammed by bulls charge but I think we can be objective here, he probably should have been able to see the one class without teleports approaching regardless. 

I don't disagree, but the dude's got such massive hate for the skill he probably forgets all the non-bullcharge ones that happen. Like, he'd have gotten yoinked by mallyx leap or Rush would have teleported (prolly not hit yet before the game position updated cus it's slower lol) or something before he could even see it in that same situation guaranteed. I can shoot "through" those barrels with shortbow, heck I can do it on skyhammer's side node walls even, and they're thicker than that.

2 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

In the first instance, it's less about having a clear path, and more about him literally appearing instantly behind me like a teleport. If this was happening regularly due to bad internet, I wouldn't be posting it here / playing the game.

Right, but it isn't regular, because it's a spike. Of course he teleports. It probably does happen a lot more often than you think, you just only remember the ones where it actually matters. Some guy suddenly jumping forward off in the distance running back from respawn isn't something you'll notice, for example.
 

Just now, bethekey.8314 said:

As for your question about people turning on hacks for losing? Absolutely that could happen. Are you not aware of how petty people are? haha

Sure, it's not impossible. But likely, and from this guy who queues plenty of matches? Nah man. That dude takes plenty of losses, he'd have turned them on an eternity ago if that was the case.

Don't get me wrong, you got screwed over and it sucks even though it's hilarious, but it's not bull's charge that's a problem here, it's the internet existing. Think about how many other similar skills would have done the same thing in this situation.

Feel like nobody in this thread plays with consistent lag spikes and packet loss lol
This is ordinary for that

[bethekey.8314]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

I don't disagree, but the dude's got such massive hate for the skill he probably forgets all the non-bullcharge ones that happen.

Oh no, trust me, I remember many, many times when skills fail on me: https://youtu.be/2UhyrezOklY?feature=shared

I also don't see your point. Bull's Charge is hugely impactful. It can and does setup 100-0s like it basically did in this clip. Not all skills are equal impact and one bug doesn't justify another. Fix them all for all I care, but focus resources on the impactful ones. Feel free to post your own proof of skills disproportionately favoring the caster. You seem to list examples so it should be easy.

People are very quick to criticize and slow to provide actual evidence. I'm one of very, very few to actually provide evidence here and I still get so much heat.

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Sure, it's not impossible. But likely, and from this guy who queues plenty of matches? Nah man. That dude takes plenty of losses, he'd have turned them on an eternity ago if that was the case.

It's meaningless to try and predict the headspace this guy was in. You can't.

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Think about how many other similar skills would have done the same thing in this situation.

Other skills bug for sure. I'd argue that when most of my skills bug out, they fail. Bull's Charge seems to be one (in my experience) that goes above and beyond to push through obstacles (literally) and still achieve its purpose. I've compared it to Magnet on Engi's Toolkit in the past. Both Bull's Charge and Magnet aim to CC the target and bring the caster and target close together. Bull's Charge is extremely good at this. Magnet targets will get stuck on blades of grass, shoot up into the air etc. Bull's Charge favors the caster, Magnet favors the target.

I say code Magnet to be a reverse Bull's Charge. If this behavior is deemed ok, I want it too.

[Fellknight.4820]

Anyone who is saying Bull Charge must suck at PvP.

He popped up, hit balanced stance, teleported onto you, and hit bull charge.

If you slow the video down to .25 you can briefly see the bull charge animation for a millisecond AFTER the port. You'd see the same thing if you hit Bull Charge at point blank range, you can see him skid to a stop before he attacks. If he HAD used Bull Charge to catch him it would have shown him slide toward him, it didn't he ported directly on top of him. And it clearly wasn't big ping issue because you can see the next tick of balanced stance free him from slick shoes knockdown immediately, which shows they were both reacting with high connectivity. 

The reason why so many people can cheat here is because the playerbase is so stupid they can't even tell when cheating is happening on video and kitten defenders play apologist, making up crazy stuff to excuse it. "it WWaaSsss BULl CHHArGee wIThh lAAgg" sure lil timmy, sure it was! 

Edited April 2 by Fellknight.4820