Warrior solution (Staff)

[Myror.7521]

So since i now know what most peops struggle on this specific weapon. Please nerf staffs Burst skills dmg (core not zerker cause that one got nerfed too heavy) "Path to Victory" from 1.5 Power scaling to 1.0?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

Please nerf staffs Burst skills dmg (core not zerker cause that one got nerfed too heavy) "Path to Victory" from 1.5 Power scaling to 1.0?

We got so many warrior mains willing to self moderate their skills for people that don't care if they get to play at all, it's wild to me but I respect it, I used to be one

The people upset about staff aren't upset about the damage, they're upset they cant 1v1 it. 

 

Edited April 9 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Hear me out:

Relic of the Demon Queen - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Increase the amount of Healing Reduction in PvP/WvW to 75%.

That or give a spec or two a trait that does the same thing as the relic's healing reduction increase, that also stacks with the healing reduction from the relic.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Hear me out:

Relic of the Demon Queen - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Increase the amount of Healing Reduction in PvP/WvW to 75%.

That or give a spec or two a trait that does the same thing as the relic's healing reduction increase, that also stacks with the healing reduction from the relic.

*drool in thief*

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

17 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

*drool in thief*

*hands over a tea towel*

I think Sahne mentioned it in the other thread, we should be pushing for a counter within the ecosystem, not whackamole balancing.

Either buff the relic that can stop the over sustain in its tracks or give one or two specs a trait that does something similar that stacks with the relic.

[Myror.7521]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 i know but part of it is that staff deals too mutch dmg for being a supp weapons :x

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

7 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 i know but part of it is that staff deals too mutch dmg for being a supp weapons :x

Does it though? Only two of the skills do any damage at all, and they both have cast times you can dodge on reaction. 3-4k on a glass amulet that you can dodge seems fine to me.

If it doesn't address the problem people have with fighting it, they will continue to complain. Nobody's complaining about the burst, so it doesn't make sense to hammer that when it doesn't affect the core of their issue.

Edited April 9 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

20 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

we should be pushing for a counter within the ecosystem, not whackamole balancing.

Either buff the relic that can stop the over sustain in its tracks or give one or two specs a trait that does something similar that stacks with the relic.

Demon queen is fine, but I think 75% would cause whining that may disrupt some builds that already work. It's easy to notice and blame at that level. 

I'm more partial to the line of bunker busting as a traitline myself, since the game's full of them and the moment staff warrior gets slapped on the wrist it will be instantly replaced by bunker hammer vindi and bunker druid. Counter three+ builds instead of one. 

Edited April 9 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[KryTiKaL.3125]

27 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 i know but part of it is that staff deals too mutch dmg for being a supp weapons :x

It really doesn't. This is what happens every time Warrior gets...anything. Any form of additional utility in their kit and suddenly it is "too strong" or it is "overbearing" meanwhile Cele stats exist on basically...anything, we have perma daze Mirage builds, perma immob builds on Druid still exist, Axe thief is basically Willbender but with Stealth, Harbinger is Harbinger, so on and so on.

Literally Warrior having the bare minimum of a thing and people absolutely cannot deal with it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

11 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Demon queen is fine, but I think 75% would cause whining that may disrupt some builds that already work. It's easy to notice and blame at that level. 

The current relic is at 50% and is apparently not enough to curb sustain on the target. Perhaps 75% would be too much, sure. I think at least trying for 66% to see if it works is worthwhile though.

11 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm more partial to the line of bunker busting as a traitline myself, since the game's full of them and the moment staff warrior gets slapped on the wrist it will be instantly replaced by bunker hammer vindi and bunker druid. Counter three+ builds instead of one. 

That would have to be via things like healing reduction or ways to bypass defenses rather than straight damage buffs. Things like making unblockable stacks accessible even.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

Literally Warrior having the bare minimum of a thing and people absolutely cannot deal with it.

Speaks to Warrior having a very decent chassis that is held back arbitrarily be old gimmicks. Anything that alleviates the gimmicks or bypasses them for a duration lets the rest of the class shine for once. The problem really is when the sustain gets too high, like BSW on release was.

[Tycura.1982]

11 hours ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

It really doesn't. This is what happens every time Warrior gets...anything. Any form of additional utility in their kit and suddenly it is "too strong" or it is "overbearing" meanwhile Cele stats exist on basically...anything, we have perma daze Mirage builds, perma immob builds on Druid still exist, Axe thief is basically Willbender but with Stealth, Harbinger is Harbinger, so on and so on.

Literally Warrior having the bare minimum of a thing and people absolutely cannot deal with it.

Warrior as a class is built in such a way that just about anyone can pick it up and make it work moderately with little mechanical knowledge. It's also incredibly held back by it's own mechanics. That's coming from me who got top 25 with spellbreaker when it was off meta and has 4000 hours on it. War as a class is very forgiving and holds your hand. There are three big problems that stem from that.

1. It hardlocks war into a position where giving it a competitive kit is too overbearing for the average player. The average war is now hitting above their "weight" so to speak. With little barrier to entry it spirals quickly into the FoTM.

2. Warrior has a forgiving kit because of how inconsistent, melee, and easily counterplayed it is. All of its eggs are in one basket. You must land burst skills or die. The traits are bloated because your ability to proc them is dubious. Give it a consistent kit and the survivability is now way too strong. See past bladesworn. Staff takes that out of the equation somewhat. Staff gives war survivability outside of burst skills. INB4 anet dumpsters defense as a reaction to staff.

3. Warrior has terrible quality of life and competitive skills because of how lopsided the balancing is towards burst skills. It's like how thief is balanced (poorly) around shadow arts and stealth. It's easier (cheaper, less effort) to balance around an established mechanic that's bad than to rework the class from the ground up.

Frankly, I'm not so certain I'd like to see the current dev team rework it anyway. I have very little faith in their ability to push good patches. Every update is like a cursed monkey paw type deal where you get changes you want and then we get buffs to DE. 

 

[Myror.7521]

@Tycura.1982 well speaken sir. I would have not be able to say it better 😛

[Terrorhuz.4695]

14 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The current relic is at 50% and is apparently not enough to curb sustain on the target.

Yeah let's rely on 1 (one) condition against a class which NEVER struggled with cleanse. Tell you more: let's apply this condition ON CC, against the one class with repeated access to pulsing stability. Tell you more: let's apply this condition against a class running a full cleanse on healing every 16s, and the cleanse happens BEFORE the healing.

This will surely work fine, a simple relic change will do 🙂 warrior doesn't need any shaving, it's fine 🙂

Edited April 10 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Sereath.1428]

3 hours ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Warrior as a class is built in such a way that just about anyone can pick it up and make it work moderately with little mechanical knowledge. It's also incredibly held back by it's own mechanics. That's coming from me who got top 25 with spellbreaker when it was off meta and has 4000 hours on it. War as a class is very forgiving and holds your hand. There are three big problems that stem from that.

1. It hardlocks war into a position where giving it a competitive kit is too overbearing for the average player. The average war is now hitting above their "weight" so to speak. With little barrier to entry it spirals quickly into the FoTM.

2. Warrior has a forgiving kit because of how inconsistent, melee, and easily counterplayed it is. All of its eggs are in one basket. You must land burst skills or die. The traits are bloated because your ability to proc them is dubious. Give it a consistent kit and the survivability is now way too strong. See past bladesworn. Staff takes that out of the equation somewhat. Staff gives war survivability outside of burst skills. INB4 anet dumpsters defense as a reaction to staff.

3. Warrior has terrible quality of life and competitive skills because of how lopsided the balancing is towards burst skills. It's like how thief is balanced (poorly) around shadow arts and stealth. It's easier (cheaper, less effort) to balance around an established mechanic that's bad than to rework the class from the ground up.

Frankly, I'm not so certain I'd like to see the current dev team rework it anyway. I have very little faith in their ability to push good patches. Every update is like a cursed monkey paw type deal where you get changes you want and then we get buffs to DE. 

 

🏆

3 hours ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Warrior has terrible quality of life and competitive skills because of how lopsided the balancing is towards burst skills. It's like how thief is balanced (poorly) around shadow arts and stealth. It's easier (cheaper, less effort) to balance around an established mechanic that's bad than to rework the class from the ground up.

I think this happens far too often, in one way or another, in almost every class.
It is very kitten and lazy game design. That's why I still consider the balance very mediocre, and it has been that way for many years. (Actually, I consider the peak to be somewhere between Heart of Thorns and before Path of Fire. Every game mode was almost fantastic.)
Same reason they only kept Conquest. It's just easier to "balance" when you can restrict everyone's gameplay to just that: circles, rotate. "This class spec is supposed to never die and win all 1v1s so rotate!"
Garbage.

3 hours ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Frankly, I'm not so certain I'd like to see the current dev team rework it anyway. I have very little faith in their ability to push good patches. Every update is like a cursed monkey paw type deal where you get changes you want and then we get buffs to DE. 

Same.
For a long time now I've been feeling that.
"Eh, Id rather not get any updates for my main class ever again."
Even though I wish they had given Power Herald back some agency by now, it's been in the shadows for about 3? years now.
I just don't care anymore, the risk of getting a monkey's paw is not worth it.

Edited April 10 by Sereath.1428

[Gotejjeken.1267]

16 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Hear me out:

Relic of the Demon Queen - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Increase the amount of Healing Reduction in PvP/WvW to 75%.

That or give a spec or two a trait that does the same thing as the relic's healing reduction increase, that also stacks with the healing reduction from the relic.

Amazing. I'll take it.

You just buffed condi Druid to completely and utterly destroy Warrior, not just stalemate it.  

I want you on the balancing team; then you can add your healing reduction increase on CC to say poison master and we can run Demon Queen and I finally won't have to deal with warrior CCs anymore.  Or anything else, because it'd be true 99% healing reduction and Druid would be immortal!

Mwahahahaha

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Druid would be immortal!

Wait till you realize that Druid´s sustain is heavily fueled by healing.

 

This Demonqueen change is not the answer sadly.  outcome is wayyy to vague and absolutely not just targeted at warrior.

Edited April 10 by Sahne.6950

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Yeah let's rely on 1 (one) condition against a class which NEVER struggled with cleanse. Tell you more: let's apply this condition ON CC, against the one class with repeated access to pulsing stability. Tell you more: let's apply this condition against a class running a full cleanse on healing every 16s, and the cleanse happens BEFORE the healing.

This will surely work fine, a simple relic change will do 🙂 warrior doesn't need any shaving, it's fine 🙂

 

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

Amazing. I'll take it.

You just buffed condi Druid to completely and utterly destroy Warrior, not just stalemate it.  

I want you on the balancing team; then you can add your healing reduction increase on CC to say poison master and we can run Demon Queen and I finally won't have to deal with warrior CCs anymore.  Or anything else, because it'd be true 99% healing reduction and Druid would be immortal!

Mwahahahaha

I've simultaneously done nothing at all and killed warrior at the same time. So, clearly this is the right call for anet to make right? 🤣

2 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Wait till you realize that Druid´s sustain is heavily fueled by healing.

 

This Demonqueen change is not the answer sadly.  outcome is wayyy to vague and absolutely not just targeted at warrior.

Maybe, but I suspect that if something like it made it's way into a trait that stacked with the relic that it would curb other's sustain, specifically things that rely on lots of big green numbers for sustain *cough* warrior *cough* and create a counter build. We need more of that frankly. Otherwise we aren't solving a problem, just shifting where the problem is.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 hours ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Warrior as a class is built in such a way that just about anyone can pick it up and make it work moderately with little mechanical knowledge. It's also incredibly held back by it's own mechanics. That's coming from me who got top 25 with spellbreaker when it was off meta and has 4000 hours on it. War as a class is very forgiving and holds your hand. There are three big problems that stem from that.

1. It hardlocks war into a position where giving it a competitive kit is too overbearing for the average player. The average war is now hitting above their "weight" so to speak. With little barrier to entry it spirals quickly into the FoTM.

2. Warrior has a forgiving kit because of how inconsistent, melee, and easily counterplayed it is. All of its eggs are in one basket. You must land burst skills or die. The traits are bloated because your ability to proc them is dubious. Give it a consistent kit and the survivability is now way too strong. See past bladesworn. Staff takes that out of the equation somewhat. Staff gives war survivability outside of burst skills. INB4 anet dumpsters defense as a reaction to staff.

3. Warrior has terrible quality of life and competitive skills because of how lopsided the balancing is towards burst skills. It's like how thief is balanced (poorly) around shadow arts and stealth. It's easier (cheaper, less effort) to balance around an established mechanic that's bad than to rework the class from the ground up.

Frankly, I'm not so certain I'd like to see the current dev team rework it anyway. I have very little faith in their ability to push good patches. Every update is like a cursed monkey paw type deal where you get changes you want and then we get buffs to DE. 

 

Correct.  Or changes you want but implemented in a way you cannot reasonably use them (greatsword buffs on the skills that don't hit anyone), or changes you want paired with weird streamlining to skills that were not problematic (see: wild blow, arc divider)

@Flowki.7194, perhaps this explains my position better. 

Edited April 10 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[KryTiKaL.3125]

12 hours ago, Tycura.1982 said:

Warrior as a class is built in such a way that just about anyone can pick it up and make it work moderately with little mechanical knowledge. It's also incredibly held back by it's own mechanics. That's coming from me who got top 25 with spellbreaker when it was off meta and has 4000 hours on it. War as a class is very forgiving and holds your hand. There are three big problems that stem from that.

1. It hardlocks war into a position where giving it a competitive kit is too overbearing for the average player. The average war is now hitting above their "weight" so to speak. With little barrier to entry it spirals quickly into the FoTM.

2. Warrior has a forgiving kit because of how inconsistent, melee, and easily counterplayed it is. All of its eggs are in one basket. You must land burst skills or die. The traits are bloated because your ability to proc them is dubious. Give it a consistent kit and the survivability is now way too strong. See past bladesworn. Staff takes that out of the equation somewhat. Staff gives war survivability outside of burst skills. INB4 anet dumpsters defense as a reaction to staff.

3. Warrior has terrible quality of life and competitive skills because of how lopsided the balancing is towards burst skills. It's like how thief is balanced (poorly) around shadow arts and stealth. It's easier (cheaper, less effort) to balance around an established mechanic that's bad than to rework the class from the ground up.

Frankly, I'm not so certain I'd like to see the current dev team rework it anyway. I have very little faith in their ability to push good patches. Every update is like a cursed monkey paw type deal where you get changes you want and then we get buffs to DE. 

 

See these are the kinds of topics people seem to not want to talk about. Once we start delving into the problematic design choices surrounding an ingrained mechanic in the game, purely because it is the status quo, people push back hard against the idea of addressing the issues the balancing has created around it. This, however, is something Warrior players have been dealing with for years now because of the simple fact that the ingrained mechanics for the class have been so poorly kept up with in the evolving state of the game. This forum actually has those conversations because of it.

Like you said, Thief being balanced around Shadow Arts and Stealth is another one. Mention this on the Thief forums and they will absolutely light you up with "skill issue", same happened for a time before ANet addressed Mirage Cloak on Mirage where the problem with it was that it could be used while CC'd, their initial response to address that (remove second dodge) was silly and the absolute wrong approach. It took them years to actually address and change it properly so that it could no longer be used while CC'd (people still complained about that but that tapered off because shocker they don't need it to work that way). Meanwhile Spellbreaker similarly had Full Counter changed to no longer activate burst traits simply when it is triggered, it now needs to actually hit like any other burst skill (in my opinion they still need to change Longbow to have similar behavior as well). This very forum pointed that out as the actual issue with Spellbreaker's overbearing sustain because it was so easy to stack up Adrenal Health and utilize other burst traits by simply walking into an AoE or getting hit by a clone, or pet, or whichever. I'm pretty sure I didn't see any Warrior complain about that, they simply agreed because yeah...they told them.

ANet avoids making the difficult decisions just as I feel a lot of players maybe don't have the difficult conversations surrounding these things, the community reflects the developer. It would absolutely be a risk if they were to undertake reworking Adrenaline as a mechanic, for instance. A huge risk. They could flub it exactly like they flubbed the initial Banner Rework, which I think is the exact reason why people don't want to make that suggestion...because ANet doesn't really seem like they know what they are doing in this area, unfortunately. Think to other MMORPGs and class reworks they have done. For a direct comparison, look at Warrior on WoW. It has evolved several times over the years. An ingrained mechanic it had for years was stance dancing, swapping between Battle, Defense and Berserker stances all to use their different skills. They literally removed that and it has not been back in that form in retail WoW since they did it. The other stances still exist, but they are spec dependent, and there are no skills that are specifically tied to any stance, the stances simply alter the bonuses you are passively benefiting from at that time.

This is the issue; ANet likely finds the risk too great to put resources and time towards what would actually need to be done to get some proper changes done to classes and balancing. They would rather haphazardly slap the "solutions" into the new things they add into the game, which has been their approach to everything since the game released. Dungeons not challenging or rewarding enough? Fractals! Endgame not there, huh? Raids! Raids not accessible enough? Strikes! Ranked PvP wintrading is an issue? Automated Tournaments! Warrior doesn't have a Support spec? Staff!

This is not good design philosophy. Though I will admit I'm curious what this "surprise" or whatever it is will be for the next expansion.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

16 minutes ago, KryTiKaL.3125 said:

ANet avoids making the difficult decisions just as I feel a lot of players maybe don't have the difficult conversations surrounding these things, the community reflects the developer. It would absolutely be a risk if they were to undertake reworking Adrenaline as a mechanic, for instance. A huge risk. They could flub it exactly like they flubbed the initial Banner Rework, which I think is the exact reason why people don't want to make that suggestion...because ANet doesn't really seem like they know what they are doing in this area, unfortunately. 

Also correct. The fact that they shipped banner the way they did before is exactly the reason I -personally- stopped making suggestions that don't work within the framework of what the devs seem to be able to do. There's lots of evidence to suggest that, outside of what exists (particularly for warrior) the devs don't really have a vision for what warrior playstyles should be rewarded, or a path to get there if they do. When you ship content with no skills because you don't think the skills are important, people remember that and it colors their feedback going forward.  

Anet's going to have to reach out for feedback specifically on this one. They have the means to create surveys or have fireside discussions like other developers do when they're looking for major content balancing. Until then, I'm fine playing the game in the way they make the game available to be played, whether or not that is to the chagrin of the other players. 

Edited April 10 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[KryTiKaL.3125]

5 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Also correct. The fact that they shipped banner the way they did before is exactly the reason I -personally- stopped making suggestions that don't work within the framework of what the devs seem to be able to do. There's lots of evidence to suggest that, outside of what exists (particularly for warrior) the devs don't really have a vision for what warrior playstyles should be rewarded, or a path to get there if they do. When you ship content with no skills because you don't think the skills are important, people remember that and it colors their feedback going forward.  

Anet's going to have to reach out for feedback specifically on this one. They have the means to create surveys or have fireside discussions like other developers do when they're looking for major content balancing. Until then, I'm fine playing the game in the way they make the game available to be played, whether or not that is to the chagrin of the other players. 

They absolutely do have the capacity to facilitate these discussions...but they don't. Which is an issue, a problem, a mistake. When you are developing a game, like it or not, the community cares the most about feeling like they are being heard. When you create an environment where your community feels like they are not being heard they get angry, frustrated. They either lash out at the developers or if it goes on for long enough they basically just give up and that isn't healthy either because the developers need player feedback. It is a necessity. The community is what makes these games survive, GW2 had a good run with that for a time...still does, they are lucky the community is what it is still ingame. However this is despite ANet, not because of them. ANet has not been the example of this cooperation, the community simply latched onto the concept and it has stuck. ANet isn't following that lead...and they really need to. I know this seems like a "nothing" thing for many people probably on this Forum but not having an official Discord at this point...is just weird. Also at this point it doesn't really seem like they even use the forums for feedback, just bug reporting, so what purpose is this even serving? They even had some "secret" Discord a while back where they pulled feedback from specific players about balance and not the community at large...so they were already doing the thing, just in the wrong way.

ANet as a developer, in my opinion, is just weird. They do weird things, for weird reasons, for weird results. Weird.

[Flowki.7194]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Correct.  Or changes you want but implemented in a way you cannot reasonably use them (greatsword buffs on the skills that don't hit anyone), or changes you want paired with weird streamlining to skills that were not problematic (see: wild blow, arc divider)

@Flowki.7194, perhaps this explains my position better. 

It does, and I understand the situation, which is why I never direct my hate toward the players, just the class/spec. I do genuinely like warrior game play in other games, it just sucks balls in gw2, and is easy/toxicly designed to the point I cannot play it in good faith, even less so when it is over performing. As I kept saying in the past, at-least you had to be decent on the likes of hammer cata/power untamed, to unlock the "omg please nerf that kitten". It matters, becuase it stops people with avg/low skill being able to swap to cheap low effort counters to bridge the skill gap.

 

To me skill reward ratios matter, I should not be killing, or denying area to a better player on a more complicated spec, just becuase the simplicity of my spec has been buffed in effectivess due to numbers games. That is basically development level cheating in my humble opinion. More skilled players should not be punished for playing more complicated specs, but that is where Gw2 is, there is a guy on this forum who outright said it, he stopped playing ele, went to staff spb and is now doing far better. I seen it myself first hand, from hammer cata to bladesworn, instantly winning 1v2s. It isnt right.  

 

This is not limited to warrior btw.

Edited April 10 by Flowki.7194

[Frequency.6407]

Worst thing you can do is to put up terrible suggestion because these will be picked up by anet and promptly implemented.

[Sahne.6950]

18 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

pecifically things that rely on lots of big green numbers for sustain *cough* warrior *cough*

*cough* Almost every sidenode contender is heavily dependant on green numbers, thus this change is completly senseless, if a shakeup of the sidenoder meta is something you want to achieve. All it will do is buff thief and ranger into oblivion *cough*   

sry.... that was a big cough.   i think i caught a cold or sumthin.

Edited April 11 by Sahne.6950