Now that passive defenses are at decent level, we need active defense buffs ASAP

[Riba.3271]

So now equally numbered groups can fight each other in semifair environment regardless of location. It was great patch, but it obviously very lacking in keeping defense interesting

What is not so great is how siege weapons are a joke. There were some questionable changes in the past to siege balance, and now siege does nothing to slow down the attackers. Golems supplied with boons and Shield generators will still crack any outnumbered defense with 100% success rate.

Active defense buffs required:

• Siege vs Siege damage increased by at least 50%. In patch July 2016 siege damage to siege was halved because of an oversight that siege does not crit. This was never returned to reasonable levels. Oil, cannons, mortars and ballistas have been adjusted since and shouldn't be included.

Quote

Siege weapons can now be affected by conditions and critical strikes. In addition, their base health has been doubled. (July 2016. Patch notes)

• Golems unaffected by boons again. For a long time Siege Golems were unaffected by boons. Then it was changed. This means right now siege golems deal 70% more damage (quickness + might) and take 33% less siege damage (protection). This is too strong and they just outperform all other siege options. If they were underpowered before, then maybe they need small buff to conpensate, but adding potentially 50% more health and 70% more damage was an overkill.
• Guild Golems cost should be raised to 80 supplies. Obviously 50 supplies is too little for better ram that can destroy multiple gates. Guild golems supply cost should match other guild siege.
• Shield generators: Force Dome (Bubble skill) should only occur around the shield generator and shield generators should be limited to 1/spot with separate siege cap. This would still keep shield generators usable, but limit them to 1/spot and make them more vulnerable.
• Wall/Gate hitpoints increased by 20%. Even though fights are fair now, people still need more time to run from spawn to respond to attackers actions. Since HoT attackers have had easy access to guild siege and +10 supply allowing them to build much more siege and be in lord room faster. Response time given need to match the powercreep of siege cost and supply carry capacity.

Intent of these changes is not to make keeps and towers impenetrable. They're just slight buffs that defenders might be able to fend off stronger attackers once or twice. Eventually you will run of supply and lose it if you're still much weaker than the attacking group, but at least you would have time to do something before that. This will translate to massive difference in experience as a defender: You will have viable actions to help your team available and time to implement it.

Edited April 21 by Riba.3271

[Riba.3271]

I would also suggest following defence adjustment:

•  Keep require 50% dolyaks more to upgrade and Stonemist castle 100%. With release of Heart of Thorns keeps, towers and castles were all made to require same amount of dolyaks. This ment keeps and castles upgrade in less than 1 hour when some towers will still take 8 hours.  The system was oversimplified and it broke the balance with the map design. Keep  and castle upgrading speed was boosted up way too much. With the defense buffs in original post, it is quite reasonable that bigger objectives would require bit more time to upgrade.
• Packed dolyaks only count as 1 dolyak for upgrade but carry 4x supply. Right now packed dolyak just does everything speedy does but better: more supply and more upgrade speed. Right now you can give Packed dolyak superspeed and you upgrade 4 times faster compared to camp with no tactivators or speed boosters. Speedy dolyaks should be about faster upgrading, and packed dolyaks about supply. As intended. I don't think the game should be about having to speed dolyaks to min-max or one tactivator always being better than another.

I put this in separate comment so defence fanatics can love the original post and hate this one.

Edited April 21 by Riba.3271

[Gorani.7205]

1 hour ago, Riba.3271 said:

So now equally numbered groups can fight each other in semi fair environment regardless of location. It was great patch, but it obviously very lacking in keeping defense interesting

What is not so great is how siege weapons are a joke.

The purpose of building towers, castles and keeps is to get an advantage in a conflict in a certain location and control the area around it. The stat buffs via claiming you might refer to as an equalizer are a patch ANet gave to fortified structures because of bad map design that is now removed,  but not replaced by better map design or better defense opportunities.

I mean you don't need only buff siege in a defensive context, but also where that siege can be put. But that would mean fundamentally working on making "geometry" and "asset" changes to the Borderlands and EBG. Making walls higher, adding crenelations/merlons/hoardings so you can't be pulled off that easily from below, adding some mechanic to protect players using Oils and Canons from the many people below, adding some new raised platforms to build some Ballistae there that can actually shoot down. But how big are the chances of ANet devs working on those instead of "ring patches" is there really?

[Chaos God.1639]

they say best defense is offense for a reason. but yea, some players want to rebuild the walls magically during a big battle.

maybe they could add new mounts with defense abilities, or give each profession unique wvw abilities.

[Longpoke.8290]

How about adding "Immune to crowd control" to the [outnumbered] buff too?

[Gotejjeken.1267]

7 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

 

• Wall/Gate hitpoints increased by 20%. Even though fights are fair now, people still need more time to run from spawn to respond to attackers actions. Since HoT attackers have had easy access to guild siege and +10 supply allowing them to build much more siege and be in lord room faster. Response time given need to match the powercreep of siege cost and supply carry capacity.

 

6 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

I would also suggest following defence adjustment:

•  Keep require 50% dolyaks more to upgrade and Stonemist castle 100%. With release of Heart of Thorns keeps, towers and castles were all made to require same amount of dolyaks. This ment keeps and castles upgrade in less than 1 hour when some towers will still take 8 hours.  The system was oversimplified and it broke the balance with the map design. Keep  and castle upgrading speed was boosted up way too much. With the defense buffs in original post, it is quite reasonable that bigger objectives would require bit more time to upgrade.

💀

[Damian.8127]

16 hours ago, Riba.3271 said:

So now equally numbered groups can fight each other in semifair environment regardless of location. It was great patch, but it obviously very lacking in keeping defense interesting

What is not so great is how siege weapons are a joke. There were some questionable changes in the past to siege balance, and now siege does nothing to slow down the attackers. Golems supplied with boons and Shield generators will still crack any outnumbered defense with 100% success rate.

Active defense buffs required:

• Siege vs Siege damage increased by at least 50%. In patch July 2016 siege damage to siege was halved because of an oversight that siege does not crit. This was never returned to reasonable levels. Oil, cannons, mortars and ballistas have been adjusted since and shouldn't be included.

• Golems unaffected by boons again. For a long time Siege Golems were unaffected by boons. Then it was changed. This means right now siege golems deal 70% more damage (quickness + might) and take 33% less siege damage (protection). This is too strong and they just outperform all other siege options. If they were underpowered before, then maybe they need small buff to conpensate, but adding potentially 50% more health and 70% more damage was an overkill.
• Guild Golems cost should be raised to 80 supplies. Obviously 50 supplies is too little for better ram that can destroy multiple gates. Guild golems supply cost should match other guild siege.
• Shield generators: Force Dome (Bubble skill) should only occur around the shield generator and shield generators should be limited to 1/spot with separate siege cap. This would still keep shield generators usable, but limit them to 1/spot and make them more vulnerable.
• Wall/Gate hitpoints increased by 20%. Even though fights are fair now, people still need more time to run from spawn to respond to attackers actions. Since HoT attackers have had easy access to guild siege and +10 supply allowing them to build much more siege and be in lord room faster. Response time given need to match the powercreep of siege cost and supply carry capacity.

Intent of these changes is not to make keeps and towers impenetrable. They're just slight buffs that defenders might be able to fend off stronger attackers once or twice. Eventually you will run of supply and lose it if you're still much weaker than the attacking group, but at least you would have time to do something before that. This will translate to massive difference in experience as a defender: You will have viable actions to help your team available and time to implement it.

Attackers get siege too. A ballista will make short work of defences given they will be built in counter locations fast by a larger group with more readily available supply.

attack groups have roughly the same level of supply as a full keep, they may also build and port golem from camps etc, artificially increasing supply count.

Rams make short work of gates. Catas and trebs can often be built with no counter, especially after first breach and clear.

Treb supply burn is actually the one thing that could use adjustment; not removed, reduced. This would cut a lot of annoyance for assaulting teams. It is overused and cheesed through walls and gates by everyone as standard.

Limit untouchable build sites for defence (not remove).

While some delicate adjustments would be welcome, the last changes were like taking a sledgehammer to one side, a side that generally requires help to balance the fight and that by thematic design should have it. Towers, castles and keeps should not all be in the same banding of buff, keeps should revert to pre buff. 

[Dawdler.8521]

Are not active defense buffs… players?

[urd.8306]

14 hours ago, Chaos God.1639 said:

they say best defense is offense for a reason. but yea, some players want to rebuild the walls magically during a big battle.

maybe they could add new mounts with defense abilities, or give each profession unique wvw abilities.

But offense wins games while defense wins championships.

[Ashen.2907]

The premise of the OP, from the first sentence, is fatally flawed.

[Bigbizz.9406]

Buffs for siege vs siege damage is a good idea. It would mean that zergs need to be more careful in where they put their siege. The siege disabler trick should already be doing this but it's difficult to actually get your damage to the siege that has been disabled especially against a zerg that has decided to stick the catapults right up against a tower where line of sight can be a death sentence with the number of pulls available.

Golem changes you suggested is also a good idea. A zerg will more likely be giving golems all those buffs for 100% uptime compared to a smaller group, making golems stronger the larger the group is. As mentioned a zerg bringing golems with them artificially increases the total supply they can carry with them. Removing boons from golems can standardize their performance when comparing zerg golems to small group golems.

[frostiecakes.2981]

Imagine asking the devs to make meaningful changes kek

[One more for the road.8950]

2 hours ago, Bigbizz.9406 said:

Buffs for siege vs siege damage is a good idea. It would mean that zergs need to be more careful in where they put their siege. The siege disabler trick should already be doing this but it's difficult to actually get your damage to the siege that has been disabled especially against a zerg that has decided to stick the catapults right up against a tower where line of sight can be a death sentence with the number of pulls available.

Golem changes you suggested is also a good idea. A zerg will more likely be giving golems all those buffs for 100% uptime compared to a smaller group, making golems stronger the larger the group is. As mentioned a zerg bringing golems with them artificially increases the total supply they can carry with them. Removing boons from golems can standardize their performance when comparing zerg golems to small group golems.

Not to mention siege disablers doesn't disable siege anymore. Only golems. It's called disruptor now.

[Blockhead Magee.3092]

12 hours ago, frostiecakes.2981 said:

Imagine asking the devs to make meaningful changes kek

Meaningful to them. They want to run in the blob and flip things with no resistance.  Mission accomplished. 

[Riba.3271]

On 4/22/2024 at 4:15 PM, Bigbizz.9406 said:

Buffs for siege vs siege damage is a good idea. It would mean that zergs need to be more careful in where they put their siege. The siege disabler trick should already be doing this but it's difficult to actually get your damage to the siege that has been disabled especially against a zerg that has decided to stick the catapults right up against a tower where line of sight can be a death sentence with the number of pulls available.

It isn't just about buffing siege vs siege damage. It is because trebutchets and arrow carts used to do 2x damage to siege in the past, so one player could make attackers rethink where to attack twice. In the past if you had 1 trebutchet behind gate, you could quite often stop the attackers from just slapping rams there. Currently with halved siege vs siege damage and shield generators, there is very little you can do to force attackers to choose more time consuming strategies.

On 4/22/2024 at 4:15 PM, Bigbizz.9406 said:

 

Golem changes you suggested is also a good idea. A zerg will more likely be giving golems all those buffs for 100% uptime compared to a smaller group, making golems stronger the larger the group is. As mentioned a zerg bringing golems with them artificially increases the total supply they can carry with them. Removing boons from golems can standardize their performance when comparing zerg golems to small group golems.

Yes, golems  are absolutely busted right now. Glad you understand this. They were already usable before patch where they made them affected by boons due to being upfront investment, flexible and having immunity to CC. Their bubble skill and ability to hit arrow carts on walls also added ton of utility.

Edited April 23 by Riba.3271

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Should post that at GvG bros discord, that's where cool kids post stuff for devs to implement. Leave us and our echo chamber alone.

[Riba.3271]

On 4/22/2024 at 12:03 PM, Damian.8127 said:

Attackers get siege too. A ballista will make short work of defences given they will be built in counter locations fast by a larger group with more readily available supply.

Yes, but ballista siege damage was already adjusted in patch where they added 4 skill and reworked 3 skill. So ballista would not be buffed. Indeed, attacker catapults, arrow carts and trebutchets would destroy siege easier, but it isn't necessarily bad to speed up things that attackers actively chose to do.

On 4/22/2024 at 12:03 PM, Damian.8127 said:

attack groups have roughly the same level of supply as a full keep, they may also build and port golem from camps etc, artificially increasing supply count.

Rams make short work of gates. Catas and trebs can often be built with no counter, especially after first breach and clear.

Yes, this is why golems will be nerfed, shield gens reworked to 1 bubble/spot and wall/gate buffed. With siege vs siege damage buffs, this will give you plenty of time to damage attacker siege.

Do note that if siege vs siege damage is buffed by 50%, then rams do 33% less damage before dying to trebs. And if walls/gates are 20% stronger, then same minimum ram setup as in current patch would require 1/(0.66/1.2)=  82% more rams to breach treb fortified gate.

 

On 4/21/2024 at 8:44 PM, Gorani.7205 said:

The purpose of building towers, castles and keeps is to get an advantage in a conflict in a certain location and control the area around it. The stat buffs via claiming you might refer to as an equalizer are a patch ANet gave to fortified structures because of bad map design that is now removed,  but not replaced by better map design or better defense opportunities.

Siege vs siege damage was nerfed by 50%, attacker golems are affected by boons now, attackers have shield gens available now, keeps/castles upgrade several times faster now, dolyaks are practically invulnerable when escorted, attackers have access to ton more supply and so on.

There are lot of "over the top" changes ANet did to objective balance so it is hard for me to blame bad infrastructural balance to "bad map design". In what world would halving or doubling somethings damage or speed lead to better balance.