Balance patch 12/12

[Morwath.9817]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:There is a reason why expertise isn't used in PvP, that reason is its usually cleansed before any serious damage is done at high stacks, all this is a nerf to Mesmers and Necros and condition bombs in WvW.

When it comes to PvP were in a power meta we have never left it most classes run power.If your going to make changes to condition damage please do so in a way that will won't destroy it because if what i think your planning to do is true you may aswell remove condition damage out of the game.

Ooo, but Quaggan remembers an old tale... Once upon a time, far behind the mountains, in deepest among deep lakes lived small Quaggan community, we had windy day, when HoT alongside with Revenant and viper amulet were released. Since that day, for many months, Krait were torturing little fishy Quaggans with Malyx Viper Revenants, short long story - expertise used to be meta... and any serious kind of condi oriented burst players should be forced to play high risk high reward amulets.

This is factually incorrect. Expertise was only meta because Viper was the best hybrid amulet at the time. No one cared about the expertise on the amulet. People only cared about the power precision and condi damage.

The condi revenant season 1 build only worked because of the incredible high sustain that revenant had on release through traits and the early extreme mobility of Shiro. The build most certainly did not care about the expertise. I 100% guarantee you that if a Power/Condi, Prec/Ferocity amulet existed back then it would have been used instead of Viper, considering the builds ran mace/axe, sword/shield, half of which only benefited from power damage back then.

In short,

Viper was only taken because there wasn't a better option and choosing it had 0% to do with expertise

. Viper was taken for the same reason Berserker is taken on Warrior; naturally high sustain (at the time) allowing full dps amulet. Expertise is kitten in pvp.

Quaggan haven't said that Viper was used because of expertise, but that Viper was used. Anyway, even Wanderer seen some tournament play those days.

I feel like it's irrelevant tho. Your original post was essentially justifying that these changes will be okay for pvp in response to another poster because expertise has been meta in the past (other poster had said expertise is kitten in pvp and unused). I'm saying it's not a 1 to 1 comparison and that those amulets were not chosen for their expertise stat and that it is indeed a kitten stat in pvp.

Well, Quaggan believes expertise isn't kitten, we can agree to disagree. Expertise gives more condi damage (reason Wanderer did seen some play), even Scrouge uses amulet with expertise right now.

[santso.9201]

Its bit weird that scourge runs deadshot, i mean carrion would have better sustain and dmg and since pvp doesnt have crit proc sigils all that preci feels bit wasted without any Power. Even sage would make more sense because of barrier scaling.

[Morwath.9817]

@santso.9201 said:Its bit weird that scourge runs deadshot, i mean carrion would have better sustain and dmg and since pvp doesnt have crit proc sigils all that preci feels bit wasted without any Power. Even sage would make more sense because of barrier scaling.

Ooo, but Barbed Precision can proc Bleed on any critical strike and your Precision increases your Condition Damage due to Target the Weak.Also, Barriers barely scale with Healing Power, but Sage is used by 2nd build running Blood Magic instead of Curses.

[Crinn.7864]

@santso.9201 said:Its bit weird that scourge runs deadshot, i mean carrion would have better sustain and dmg and since pvp doesnt have crit proc sigils all that preci feels bit wasted without any Power. Even sage would make more sense because of barrier scaling.

Carrion vs deadshot is a longstanding debate. Some necros swear by carrion, others swear by deadshot.

Also deadshot is taken for it's expertise not it's precision.

[Ithilwen.1529]

@Furious.2867 said:

@Klaeljanus.7695 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat,

even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet

to balance ele?

Because the Scourge can still deliver a full menu of conditions. The balance patch will allegedly reduce stacks (intensity) and increase duration. It will kill condi mirage, burn guard, etc....

Yes, I think this is basically aimed at crippling mirage. There's enough cleanse, ( active and passive, ) that long duration condi is not going to work.

[Crinn.7864]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@otto.5684 said:If condi builds are so good, then why don’t we see them being played more often? There are not being played not because they are overshadowed by mirage and scourge, but because they are not competitive.

You realize we're talking about a hypothetical situation? Mirage and Scourge suddenly being nerfed out of existence. You don't see them currently being played more often because.. that hypothetical situation isn't real - of course you'd just see Mirage and Scourge played all the time.

Condi Thief, Chronomancer, Procmancer, I would expect in a hypothetical situation where Mirage and Scourge were either not usable or not applying conditions, we'd pick these best condi builds available. My point was that there will always be a condition damage threat so you don't just build to counter power.

Necromancer will go Power if Scourge is deleted. Power Reaper has better killing power than condi reaper, and it has better survivability.

[Sykper.6583]

I like how the conversation shifted from a potentially huge change to condition damage in PvP, to how metas were from launch to now. I don't mind the discourse as it is pretty interesting to read though.

[StickerHappy.8052]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@otto.5684 said:If condi builds are so good, then why don’t we see them being played more often? There are not being played not because they are overshadowed by mirage and scourge, but because they are not competitive.

You realize we're talking about a hypothetical situation? Mirage and Scourge suddenly being nerfed out of existence. You don't see them currently being played more often because.. that hypothetical situation isn't real - of course you'd just see Mirage and Scourge played all the time.

Condi Thief, Chronomancer, Procmancer, I would expect in a hypothetical situation where Mirage and Scourge were either not usable or not applying conditions, we'd pick these best condi builds available. My point was that there will always be a condition damage threat so you don't just build to counter power.

True. Although I gotta say, Chrono, Procmancer are from the same classes being complained now. Same candy just a different flavor. All the other condition builds for regular play (non top tier) will be even more non existent with the change.

[Chaith.8256]

@StickerHappy.8052 said:True. Although I gotta say, Chrono, Procmancer are from the same classes being complained now. Same candy just a different flavor. All the other condition builds for regular play (non top tier) will be even more non existent with the change.

Condi Trapper Soulbeast would be possible usable without Mirage/Scourge, just remembered.

Lots of professions are just pushed really hard in a direction away from Condi. There's core burn Engi, core Necro, core burn Guard, but those core specs are in the dumpster. Berserker, but that Elite spec is in the dumpster. Herald can be made to run a condi build, but the profession is in the dumpster. I don't even know if Renegade can be said to have PvP 'builds' as if the build matters, but I guess maybe a condi build is possible? :lol: Needless to say, Renegade in the dumpster. Weaver does good hybrid damage, but a full condi role is not possible.

Tempest, Scrapper, Druid, Dragonhunter, Holosmith, Deadeye, Spellbreaker, Firebrand these are all very pushed into power or support roles, I don't see a possible condi build.

Condi Trapper Soulbeast, Condi Daredevil, Condi Chrono, Condi Reaper are the best ones I can think of. Berserker, Herald/Renegade, core Engi, core Necro, core Guard, with a few changes these would be possible condition carries as well.

Mirage and Scourge really are just insanely better than the next options of course. The biggest thing I want is a little diversity in a condi build that can teamfight, it's just been Necro/Reaper/Scourge forever.

[StickerHappy.8052]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@StickerHappy.8052 said:True. Although I gotta say, Chrono, Procmancer are from the same classes being complained now. Same candy just a different flavor. All the other condition builds for regular play (non top tier) will be even more non existent with the change.

Condi Trapper Soulbeast would be possible usable without Mirage/Scourge, just remembered.

Lots of professions are just pushed really hard in a direction away from Condi. There's core burn Engi, core Necro, core burn Guard, but those core specs are in the dumpster. Berserker, but that Elite spec is in the dumpster. Herald can be made to run a condi build, but the profession is in the dumpster. I don't even know if Renegade can be said to have PvP 'builds' as if the build matters, but I guess maybe a condi build is possible? :lol: Needless to say, Renegade in the dumpster. Weaver does good hybrid damage, but a full condi role is not possible.

Tempest, Scrapper, Druid, Dragonhunter, Holosmith, Deadeye, Spellbreaker, Firebrand these are all very pushed into power or support roles, I don't see a possible condi build.

Condi Trapper Soulbeast, Condi Daredevil, Condi Chrono, Condi Reaper are the best ones I can think of. Berserker, Herald/Renegade, core Engi, core Necro, core Guard, with a few changes these would be possible condition carries as well.

Mirage and Scourge really are just insanely better than the next options of course. The biggest thing I want is a little diversity in a condi build that can teamfight, it's just been Necro/Reaper/Scourge forever.

Oh I totally agree with you. I gotta be clear about my response to you. The december 12 patch does not target those 2 classes specifically (I would've wanted that to happen though). The patch says that it will deal wwwith conditions in general from being bursty, in this case with your post, any build with burst burning would be affected (most popular one would be burn guard, or burn engie to a degree). The addition of the that ramp up time or any nerf associated with it would hurt all of those classes you mentioned (on top of scourge and mirage)

I do not wanna assume but I just fear that Anet would also hit all these classes that we would love to see in some team action.

The patch should just hit the main culprits which is Scourge and Mirage. With the patch (hopefully they address this very well) that diversity in condi builds will be even more extinct.

The patch would bring lesser stacks but with longer durations.

Main problem I see here is the most obvious one: You need time to get conditions to ramp up damage right? On top of all the cleanses, How would that happen specifically?

Other problem associated with it is: Not every condition build has access to burst conditions (I am thinking about Burn, Confusion, Torment) Only Burn guard, Burn engie, Mesmer (Chrono, Core, Mirage) Scourge/ Reaper have access to these kinds of stacks and conditions. Poison Master Ranger (if you can reach 20 stacks of poison) is the only remotely close competitor when we talk about bursting with conditions

My Hope: Either nerf the culprit classes OR nerf the culprit conditions. To be fair the post from Irenio is pretty vague. Just going off Anet's track record here (which I hope doesn't happen) hopefully they don't hit the other classes.

[brannigan.9831]

This is going to do nothing to address the fact that I have weakness on me all the time fighting scourges which totally neutrers my power spike build.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

I am going to buy some popcorn in case cuntdition damage gets nerfed hard enough for cuntdition mesmer and scourges to come and cry at the forums :>

[narcx.3570]

Can't wait to just be permanently stuck in combat by these double duration conditions while waiting for my sad, lone revenant cleanse to come off cooldown.

[Razor.6392]

@Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:cuntdition damage

EleGiggle

[Apolo.5942]

I dont know what, but they need to do something.

To build power, you need.POWERCRITFEROCITY

To build condition, you need.CONDITION DAMAGE.

Its 3 stats to 1, condition builds can pick offensive AND defensive stats simultaneously.

[Xibalbar.7459]

All over again: Why should DAMAGE OVER TIME burst?

[Jinks.2057]

@Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:cuntdition damage cuntdition mesmer

Well played on the filter bypass....well played indeed