Balance patch 12/12

[Morwath.9817]

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Klaeljanus.7695 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat,

even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet

to balance ele?

Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

Its because you think that

good spot

for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

Ooobviously, you know better than all those tournament Necromancers & Rangers pre Hot who tried literaly every possible build, and now tournament Elementalists & Revenants... Opinions means nothing when were talking about facts, thus Quaggan won't even bother to continue this - you can think whatever you want, it won't reshape reality.

Guess what, yes I do. It is a real possibility that someone can analyze a game better than those who play it professionally. GW2 is far easier topic than any human science today, so don't be surprised that someone may know builds that work better than most common one's. And no, professional players are usually not the analytical players, they are mechanically-trained sort. Analytical type personalities are only around 10% of earth population, so do an easy comparrison to what kind of % they hold among competitive players.

Top players are top, because they usualy know their own classes better than designers, who designed them. They are also top, because they practice for many hours on daily basis and they playtest various builds by trial of an error, slowly tunning them - they are usualy the most dedicated players. Suggesting you know better what is a good build for an Elementalist than Phantaram is a bit.... well Quaggan won't even comment on it.

There are far more reasons why top players are top in a broken matchmaking system that values wins/losses in a TEAM GAME over personal performance with a class. So them being top is not guaranteed to be linked to them being good at build analysis. You won't imagine how many players can reach the top of team-based performance ladder if they will be GIVEN a broken class+build combination into their hands if they had time, patience, mental stability, dedication to play only said class+build. All those factors are not linked to build analysis yet they are among the most common causes that prevent good mechanical players from reaching the top. And no, I don't play or analyze elementalist myself, it's one of few classes I ignore, but I have seen videos + did enough playtesting with people I know + met some eles in ranked to conclude that elementalist is still very viable with ranged scepter build. Their burst is still very nice so they can easily win a game if there is no thief or mesmer in game that puts majority of his effort on hunting that elementalist, which is highly possible considering there is no information about player builds when the game first-starts, it is obtained only after the game is in progress already. In case such thief/mesmer would be in game ele can just adapt by switching to another class.

Quaggan wouldn't use ladderboard standings to consider someone "top player", or "pro player", but achivements in tournament scene, as we're debating viabliting of profession on top level, not winning some random ranked games, but tournaments, e.g. UGO...

Still, my point holds true because it ADDS even more reasons why alot of players can't reach the well-known status of a top competitive player even if they are mechanically and motivationally fit. To name a few : problems finding good teammates, them being too introverted to play in team-based environment, being toxic enough so that they eventually get kicked out of any team they get into. Those are just on top of my head, yet pretty real and common reasons why a perfect player will be ignored by majority's opinion about who's "top"

Excuses.

[dragonkain.3984]

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Klaeljanus.7695 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

How is that in any way an educated prediction, given that necro has always been their favourite target of the nerf bat,

even when the gear guys had to remove the celestial amulet

to balance ele?

Because it's more educted that you can imagine. Condi reaper before chill nerfs and even after a tonn of other nerfs, was still the most op class when combined with healer ele because of one broken combination called Bleed on Chill+Ice Aura share spam, which was making that class a god-mode through all time of second expansion. Core necro before any expansion was always in a good spot if you knew how to abuse line of sight and fear>damage stunlock bursts.

Your statement is more than false, "pre HoT" there was only one competitive team using Necromancer with any success - Abjured. They still lost World Series to Orange Logo, which used Shoutbow over Necromancer.

Its because you think that

good spot

for necro means "beyond godmode overpowered" which is obviously NOT THE MEANING of a "good spot". Good spot is being balanced with MAJORITY of classes and builds in a game. Pre-hot era obviously had broken op builds, but necro was always a decent class.

Ooo? It was like Elementalist and Revenant now. If we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT, they became once again viable when HoT allowed them to reincarnate as Reaper and Druid.

Both ele and ranged rev are quite useful in specific builds, if used on appropriate maps. If competitive players couldn't figure them out it's not class's problem, it's the problem of players being able only to blindly copy-paste meta battle instead of using their brains. Same thing with old necro.

Ooobviously, you know better than all those tournament Necromancers & Rangers pre Hot who tried literaly every possible build, and now tournament Elementalists & Revenants... Opinions means nothing when were talking about facts, thus Quaggan won't even bother to continue this - you can think whatever you want, it won't reshape reality.

Guess what, yes I do. It is a real possibility that someone can analyze a game better than those who play it professionally. GW2 is far easier topic than any human science today, so don't be surprised that someone may know builds that work better than most common one's. And no, professional players are usually not the analytical players, they are mechanically-trained sort. Analytical type personalities are only around 10% of earth population, so do an easy comparrison to what kind of % they hold among competitive players.

Top players are top, because they usualy know their own classes better than designers, who designed them. They are also top, because they practice for many hours on daily basis and they playtest various builds by trial of an error, slowly tunning them - they are usualy the most dedicated players. Suggesting you know better what is a good build for an Elementalist than Phantaram is a bit.... well Quaggan won't even comment on it.

There are far more reasons why top players are top in a broken matchmaking system that values wins/losses in a TEAM GAME over personal performance with a class. So them being top is not guaranteed to be linked to them being good at build analysis. You won't imagine how many players can reach the top of team-based performance ladder if they will be GIVEN a broken class+build combination into their hands if they had time, patience, mental stability, dedication to play only said class+build. All those factors are not linked to build analysis yet they are among the most common causes that prevent good mechanical players from reaching the top. And no, I don't play or analyze elementalist myself, it's one of few classes I ignore, but I have seen videos + did enough playtesting with people I know + met some eles in ranked to conclude that elementalist is still very viable with ranged scepter build. Their burst is still very nice so they can easily win a game if there is no thief or mesmer in game that puts majority of his effort on hunting that elementalist, which is highly possible considering there is no information about player builds when the game first-starts, it is obtained only after the game is in progress already. In case such thief/mesmer would be in game ele can just adapt by switching to another class.

Quaggan wouldn't use ladderboard standings to consider someone "top player", or "pro player", but achivements in tournament scene, as we're debating viabliting of profession on top level, not winning some random ranked games, but tournaments, e.g. UGO...

Still, my point holds true because it ADDS even more reasons why alot of players can't reach the well-known status of a top competitive player even if they are mechanically and motivationally fit. To name a few : problems finding good teammates, them being too introverted to play in team-based environment, being toxic enough so that they eventually get kicked out of any team they get into. Those are just on top of my head, yet pretty real and common reasons why a perfect player will be ignored by majority's opinion about who's "top"

Excuses.

Whatever you call it, they are still the real reasons why many good players ignore professional scene.Not everyone likes being chained with other 4 people just for the absolutely useless bragging right in a game that got a laughable competitive scene like GW2.And once again, my point is not disproven, player who never bothered to get those bragging rights can easily be equal or even better to a known pro player.Enjoy being destroyed with logic.

[Loboling.5293]

Expect to laugh when the previewed changes turn out to be the only changes.... ;P

At least I hope not, I seem to recall it happening once before.

[Morwath.9817]

@dragonkain.3984 said:Whatever you call it, they are still the real reasons why many good players ignore professional scene.Not everyone likes being chained with other 4 people just for the absolutely useless bragging right in a game that got a laughable competitive scene like GW2.And once again, my point is not disproven, player who never bothered to get those bragging rights can easily be equal or even better to a known pro player.Enjoy being destroyed with logic.

Hooo Hooo Hooo, let Quaggan show you how you logic is destructive: Quaggan is better than Messi and Ronaldo together at what they do, he just dislikes being chained with other people, so he will stay amazing and anonymous, unknown but shinning star!

[dragonkain.3984]

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Whatever you call it, they are still the real reasons why many good players ignore professional scene.Not everyone likes being chained with other 4 people just for the absolutely useless bragging right in a game that got a laughable competitive scene like GW2.And once again, my point is not disproven, player who never bothered to get those bragging rights can easily be equal or even better to a known pro player.Enjoy being destroyed with logic.

Hooo Hooo Hooo, let Quaggan show you how you logic is destructive: Quaggan is better than Messi and Ronaldo together at what they do, he just dislikes being chained with other people, so he will stay amazing and anonymous, unknown but shinning star!

That doesn't prove destructivity of my logic at all, it only proves my point once again. You've literally just said that you're an unknown player who is better than known competitive one's, that's all.

[Morwath.9817]

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Whatever you call it, they are still the real reasons why many good players ignore professional scene.Not everyone likes being chained with other 4 people just for the absolutely useless bragging right in a game that got a laughable competitive scene like GW2.And once again, my point is not disproven, player who never bothered to get those bragging rights can easily be equal or even better to a known pro player.Enjoy being destroyed with logic.

Hooo Hooo Hooo, let Quaggan show you how you logic is destructive: Quaggan is better than Messi and Ronaldo together at what they do, he just dislikes being chained with other people, so he will stay amazing and anonymous, unknown but shinning star!

That doesn't prove destructivity of my logic at all, it only proves my point once again. You've literally just said that you're an unknown player who is better than known competitive one's.

Does Fishy Facepalm

[Chaith.8256]

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

Then they proceed to win WTS 3 in Cologne with nos on necro which was still pre HOT.

Right, Quaggan was thinking about Boston, as said before "if we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT". Necromancer wasn't used during EU tournaments (by winning teams) for months.

Boston was a strategy victory, not a comp victory. Wasn't until Cologne we learned you just have to rotate away from the Bunker guardian to win.

North American comps in Vanilla were just much better than EU ones, similar to how EU Mesmer comps were just much better in HoT. Double Ele and Necro were always stronger than Bunker Guards and Mesmers throughout the whole vanilla era, sometimes in each region based on the prominent players there you have separate metas develop.

But my point is that Necro has always been top tier with the correct team & strategy, every second of every meta since the game's inception as my memory serves. At no point in time could a Necro not be confident going into a world championship, it's a very unique profession.

Quaggan disagres, EU comps haven't just used Mesmer post HoT, but also pre HoT - Quaggan would like to remind you that 2/3 competitive teams used Mesmers (TCG and 55 monks). Necro would be completly wothless against those Thief+Mesmer setups, thats why Orange Logo played what they played.

Quaggan needs to read better, I am saying Mesmer and Guard in Vanilla made EU comps inferior, Mesmer after HoT made EU comps superior. Make sense?

Also, Necro back then was not free to Thief/Mesmer.

[dragonkain.3984]

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Whatever you call it, they are still the real reasons why many good players ignore professional scene.Not everyone likes being chained with other 4 people just for the absolutely useless bragging right in a game that got a laughable competitive scene like GW2.And once again, my point is not disproven, player who never bothered to get those bragging rights can easily be equal or even better to a known pro player.Enjoy being destroyed with logic.

Hooo Hooo Hooo, let Quaggan show you how you logic is destructive: Quaggan is better than Messi and Ronaldo together at what they do, he just dislikes being chained with other people, so he will stay amazing and anonymous, unknown but shinning star!

That doesn't prove destructivity of my logic at all, it only proves my point once again. You've literally just said that you're an unknown player who is better than known competitive one's.

Does Fishy Facepalm

Ok, well I guess we can conclude our conversation since you're out of arguments. Hope you didn't slap the leftovers of your quaggan-brain out by this facepalm!Cheers!

[Morwath.9817]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

Then they proceed to win WTS 3 in Cologne with nos on necro which was still pre HOT.

Right, Quaggan was thinking about Boston, as said before "if we consider Nos as exception which proves the rule, then we could say that Necromancer and Ranger weren't played in competitive play pre HoT". Necromancer wasn't used during EU tournaments (by winning teams) for months.

Boston was a strategy victory, not a comp victory. Wasn't until Cologne we learned you just have to rotate away from the Bunker guardian to win.

North American comps in Vanilla were just much better than EU ones, similar to how EU Mesmer comps were just much better in HoT. Double Ele and Necro were always stronger than Bunker Guards and Mesmers throughout the whole vanilla era, sometimes in each region based on the prominent players there you have separate metas develop.

But my point is that Necro has always been top tier with the correct team & strategy, every second of every meta since the game's inception as my memory serves. At no point in time could a Necro not be confident going into a world championship, it's a very unique profession.

Quaggan disagres, EU comps haven't just used Mesmer post HoT, but also pre HoT - Quaggan would like to remind you that 2/3 competitive teams used Mesmers (TCG and 55 monks). Necro would be completly wothless against those Thief+Mesmer setups, thats why Orange Logo played what they played.

Quaggan needs to read better, I am saying Mesmer and Guard in Vanilla made EU comps inferior, Mesmer after HoT made EU comps superior. Make sense?

Also, Necro back then was not free to Thief/Mesmer. That was an EU Necro playerskill problem

Ooo, but Quaggan disagrees. Mesmer was worse only againt heavy bunker comps, like the one Orange Logo played against you, same way as Guardian wasn't much useful against you, since you haven't used Mesmer yourself, but Tage back then was playing only Guard (?). Quaggan has no idea, how Necromancer wasn't bad vs Mesmer+Thief duo stealth ganks, literaly no way to disengage outside of Flesh Wurm and even that wouldn't help much often without babysiting.

EU had much more competitive scene, and team compositions were more reflecting balance, than NA. There was no way one team would dominate EU scene for months, unlike in case of NA. It was rather typical for everyone to believe that Nos is viable not Necromancer, and mostly becuase he gets hard carried by rest of his team, also he was considered the best among Necromancers (btw, wasn't he #1 ranked on "old" leaderboards in both soloQ and teamQ?).

However, if only one Necromancer can perform well enough to be picked, in only one team worldwide, then clearly class wasn't in good position.

@dragonkain.3984 said:

Ok, well I guess we can conclude our conversation since you're out of arguments. Hope you didn't slap the leftovers of your quaggan-brain out by this facepalm!Cheers!

Indeed, if mr. Logical can't see irony, then we have no reason to continue.

[otto.5684]

Why does it matter how things worked in vanilla or even in HoT, to the current changes?!

[Morwath.9817]

@otto.5684 said:Why does it matter how things worked in vanilla or even in HoT, to the current changes?!

Ooo, what is important is truth, feelings to dark side may lead.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:Woooooo-hoooooooo!

Source.

whos the best ? u r! yes u r! the very bestest Quaggan. good boy Quaggan. good boy.

Wooo-hooo! Quaggan did nothing, but praise him a bit more!

Just for being on the forums, being posistive, entertaining as heck with you keeping up with the whole quaggan thing for every post.You refer to yourself as quaggan like a helpful pet or something so i figured a good boy was in order. Lolol

[jcbroe.4329]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

Dubt wit will change much, dont forget this is a mmo towards pve players so they cant make it difficult, some carrying is needed to bring pve players to the thing they most hate .. pvp.

It wont change much, just a few ticks more needed to condi burst.It will be more like a placebo patch than anything else, still easy to stack bursts gamemode wide.

And to start with.. its ANet @ balancing, dont expect much.

Considering the only meta condition specs are Scourge and Mirage, this change will certainly not help the other 7 underperforming condition classes in pvp.

If they get nerfed down to the level of the other 7 classes, then those other classes will no longer be underperforming, yes?

[Crinn.7864]

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

Dubt wit will change much, dont forget this is a mmo towards pve players so they cant make it difficult, some carrying is needed to bring pve players to the thing they most hate .. pvp.

It wont change much, just a few ticks more needed to condi burst.It will be more like a placebo patch than anything else, still easy to stack bursts gamemode wide.

And to start with.. its ANet @ balancing, dont expect much.

Considering the only meta condition specs are Scourge and Mirage, this change will certainly not help the other 7 underperforming condition classes in pvp.

If they get nerfed down to the level of the other 7 classes, then those other classes will no longer be underperforming, yes?

If scourge and mirage are nerfed to the levels of the other 7 classes condition specs, then there would be no condition builds in PvP because they would all be inferior to their respective classes power variant.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

Dubt wit will change much, dont forget this is a mmo towards pve players so they cant make it difficult, some carrying is needed to bring pve players to the thing they most hate .. pvp.

It wont change much, just a few ticks more needed to condi burst.It will be more like a placebo patch than anything else, still easy to stack bursts gamemode wide.

And to start with.. its ANet @ balancing, dont expect much.

Considering the only meta condition specs are Scourge and Mirage, this change will certainly not help the other 7 underperforming condition classes in pvp.

If they get nerfed down to the level of the other 7 classes, then those other classes will no longer be underperforming, yes?

If scourge and mirage are nerfed to the levels of the other 7 classes condition specs, then there would be no condition builds in PvP because they would all be inferior to their respective classes power variant.

Maybe conditions shouldn't be a viable sole source of damage and should supplement power damage and provide debuffs.

[jcbroe.4329]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

Dubt wit will change much, dont forget this is a mmo towards pve players so they cant make it difficult, some carrying is needed to bring pve players to the thing they most hate .. pvp.

It wont change much, just a few ticks more needed to condi burst.It will be more like a placebo patch than anything else, still easy to stack bursts gamemode wide.

And to start with.. its ANet @ balancing, dont expect much.

Considering the only meta condition specs are Scourge and Mirage, this change will certainly not help the other 7 underperforming condition classes in pvp.

If they get nerfed down to the level of the other 7 classes, then those other classes will no longer be underperforming, yes?

If scourge and mirage are nerfed to the levels of the other 7 classes condition specs, then there would be no condition builds in PvP because they would all be inferior to their respective classes power variant.

That seems a tad bit hyperbolic, you still have S/D condi Daredevil, Chrono, and Procmancer, all as presumably viable builds if not for being directly outclassed by 2 apex predator builds, which is really the ultimate issue with condi builds; why run x when you could run a Scourge or Mirage.

How is it that suddenly condi wouldn't be viable compared to power builds when it isn't power builds that have pushed them down the totem pole?

Unless you mean that power creep across the board is out of hand since PoF, because who would actually be able to disagree if that's the sentiment?

[Chaith.8256]

@BeepBoopBop.5403 said:Maybe conditions shouldn't be a viable sole source of damage and should supplement power damage and provide debuffs.

That's certainly possible, but that ship sailed long ago and in the rest of the game, condition damage is intended to be viable damage.

[Chaith.8256]

@jcbroe.4329 said:That seems a tad bit hyperbolic, you still have S/D condi Daredevil, Chrono, and Procmancer, all as presumably viable builds if not for being directly outclassed by 2 apex predator builds, which is really the ultimate issue with condi builds; why run x when you could run a Scourge or Mirage.

How is it the suddenly condi wouldn't be viable compared to power builds when it isn't power builds that have pushed them down the totem pole?

Unless you mean that power creep across the board is out of hand since PoF, because who would actually be able to disagree if that's the sentiment?

I agree, if Scourge and Mirage disappeared today, we would still run condition damage builds, they wouldn't be overshadowed by Power ones. Why? Cause you often need to come at tough targets with both power and conditions to get something done. Defending against just power or just conditions is too easy.

[otto.5684]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:That seems a tad bit hyperbolic, you still have S/D condi Daredevil, Chrono, and Procmancer, all as presumably viable builds if not for being directly outclassed by 2 apex predator builds, which is really the ultimate issue with condi builds; why run x when you could run a Scourge or Mirage.

How is it the suddenly condi wouldn't be viable compared to power builds when it isn't power builds that have pushed them down the totem pole?

Unless you mean that power creep across the board is out of hand since PoF, because who would actually be able to disagree if that's the sentiment?

I agree, if Scourge and Mirage disappeared today, we would still run condition damage builds, they wouldn't be overshadowed by Power ones. Why? Cause you often need to come at tough targets with both power and conditions to get something done. Defending against just power or just conditions is too easy.

If condi builds are so good, then why don’t we see them being played more often? There are not being played not because they are overshadowed by mirage and scourge, but because they are not competitive.

[Chaith.8256]

@otto.5684 said:If condi builds are so good, then why don’t we see them being played more often? There are not being played not because they are overshadowed by mirage and scourge, but because they are not competitive.

You realize we're talking about a hypothetical situation? Mirage and Scourge suddenly being nerfed out of existence. You don't see them currently being played more often because.. that hypothetical situation isn't real - of course you'd just see Mirage and Scourge played all the time.

Condi Thief, Chronomancer, Procmancer, I would expect in a hypothetical situation where Mirage and Scourge were either not usable or not applying conditions, we'd pick these best condi builds available. My point was that there will always be a condition damage threat so you don't just build to counter power.

[ZhouX.8742]

@Jinks.2057 said:PvE players love them some Condi builds. I wonder why.....

PvE players don't necessarily love condi builds, it's just what performs the top damage at the moment in PvE. Also, most top pvpers raid frequently and do PvE content so the point of PvE vs PvP is rather irrelevant at this point in time in GW2.

If it were power builds outperforming condi then the result would see mostly power builds in raid rotations. PvE just plays the builds that are effective in damage output, equivalent to the metas of PvP/WvW.

[Flauvious.6195]

@Crinn.7864 said:

@jcbroe.4329 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@dragonkain.3984 said:Educated prediction, based on observing anets brilliant balancing in the past:

All condition classes will become absolutely worthless in any pvp modes except scourge (if no nerfs on it again)

Dubt wit will change much, dont forget this is a mmo towards pve players so they cant make it difficult, some carrying is needed to bring pve players to the thing they most hate .. pvp.

It wont change much, just a few ticks more needed to condi burst.It will be more like a placebo patch than anything else, still easy to stack bursts gamemode wide.

And to start with.. its ANet @ balancing, dont expect much.

Considering the only meta condition specs are Scourge and Mirage, this change will certainly not help the other 7 underperforming condition classes in pvp.

If they get nerfed down to the level of the other 7 classes, then those other classes will no longer be underperforming, yes?

If scourge and mirage are nerfed to the levels of the other 7 classes condition specs, then there would be no condition builds in PvP because they would all be inferior to their respective classes power variant.

This is so hilariously wrong

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:There is a reason why expertise isn't used in PvP, that reason is its usually cleansed before any serious damage is done at high stacks, all this is a nerf to Mesmers and Necros and condition bombs in WvW.

When it comes to PvP were in a power meta we have never left it most classes run power.If your going to make changes to condition damage please do so in a way that will won't destroy it because if what i think your planning to do is true you may aswell remove condition damage out of the game.

Ooo, but Quaggan remembers an old tale... Once upon a time, far behind the mountains, in deepest among deep lakes lived small Quaggan community, we had windy day, when HoT alongside with Revenant and viper amulet were released. Since that day, for many months, Krait were torturing little fishy Quaggans with Malyx Viper Revenants, short long story - expertise used to be meta... and any serious kind of condi oriented burst players should be forced to play high risk high reward amulets.

This is factually incorrect. Expertise was only meta because Viper was the best hybrid amulet at the time. No one cared about the expertise on the amulet. People only cared about the power precision and condi damage.

The condi revenant season 1 build only worked because of the incredible high sustain that revenant had on release through traits and the early extreme mobility of Shiro. The build most certainly did not care about the expertise. I 100% guarantee you that if a Power/Condi, Prec/Ferocity amulet existed back then it would have been used instead of Viper, considering the builds ran mace/axe, sword/shield, half of which only benefited from power damage back then.

In short, Viper was only taken because there wasn't a better option and choosing it had 0% to do with expertise. Viper was taken for the same reason Berserker is taken on Warrior; naturally high sustain (at the time) allowing full dps amulet. Expertise is shit in pvp.

[Morwath.9817]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:There is a reason why expertise isn't used in PvP, that reason is its usually cleansed before any serious damage is done at high stacks, all this is a nerf to Mesmers and Necros and condition bombs in WvW.

When it comes to PvP were in a power meta we have never left it most classes run power.If your going to make changes to condition damage please do so in a way that will won't destroy it because if what i think your planning to do is true you may aswell remove condition damage out of the game.

Ooo, but Quaggan remembers an old tale... Once upon a time, far behind the mountains, in deepest among deep lakes lived small Quaggan community, we had windy day, when HoT alongside with Revenant and viper amulet were released. Since that day, for many months, Krait were torturing little fishy Quaggans with Malyx Viper Revenants, short long story - expertise used to be meta... and any serious kind of condi oriented burst players should be forced to play high risk high reward amulets.

This is factually incorrect. Expertise was only meta because Viper was the best hybrid amulet at the time. No one cared about the expertise on the amulet. People only cared about the power precision and condi damage.

The condi revenant season 1 build only worked because of the incredible high sustain that revenant had on release through traits and the early extreme mobility of Shiro. The build most certainly did not care about the expertise. I 100% guarantee you that if a Power/Condi, Prec/Ferocity amulet existed back then it would have been used instead of Viper, considering the builds ran mace/axe, sword/shield, half of which only benefited from power damage back then.

In short,

Viper was only taken because there wasn't a better option and choosing it had 0% to do with expertise

. Viper was taken for the same reason Berserker is taken on Warrior; naturally high sustain (at the time) allowing full dps amulet. Expertise is kitten in pvp.

Quaggan haven't said that Viper was used because of expertise, but that Viper was used. Anyway, even Wanderer seen some tournament play those days.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Morwath.9817 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Morwath.9817 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:There is a reason why expertise isn't used in PvP, that reason is its usually cleansed before any serious damage is done at high stacks, all this is a nerf to Mesmers and Necros and condition bombs in WvW.

When it comes to PvP were in a power meta we have never left it most classes run power.If your going to make changes to condition damage please do so in a way that will won't destroy it because if what i think your planning to do is true you may aswell remove condition damage out of the game.

Ooo, but Quaggan remembers an old tale... Once upon a time, far behind the mountains, in deepest among deep lakes lived small Quaggan community, we had windy day, when HoT alongside with Revenant and viper amulet were released. Since that day, for many months, Krait were torturing little fishy Quaggans with Malyx Viper Revenants, short long story - expertise used to be meta... and any serious kind of condi oriented burst players should be forced to play high risk high reward amulets.

This is factually incorrect. Expertise was only meta because Viper was the best hybrid amulet at the time. No one cared about the expertise on the amulet. People only cared about the power precision and condi damage.

The condi revenant season 1 build only worked because of the incredible high sustain that revenant had on release through traits and the early extreme mobility of Shiro. The build most certainly did not care about the expertise. I 100% guarantee you that if a Power/Condi, Prec/Ferocity amulet existed back then it would have been used instead of Viper, considering the builds ran mace/axe, sword/shield, half of which only benefited from power damage back then.

In short,

Viper was only taken because there wasn't a better option and choosing it had 0% to do with expertise

. Viper was taken for the same reason Berserker is taken on Warrior; naturally high sustain (at the time) allowing full dps amulet. Expertise is kitten in pvp.

Quaggan haven't said that Viper was used because of expertise, but that Viper was used. Anyway, even Wanderer seen some tournament play those days.

I feel like it's irrelevant tho. Your original post was essentially justifying that these changes will be okay for pvp in response to another poster because expertise has been meta in the past (other poster had said expertise is shit in pvp and unused). I'm saying it's not a 1 to 1 comparison and that those amulets were not chosen for their expertise stat and that it is indeed a shit stat in pvp.