June 25 patch notes preview Revenant

[arazoth.7290]

Revenant

Renegade is the primary focus of the revenant changes for this update. Power-based damage builds get a boost with an update to All for One, as the trait will now also grant an increase to outgoing strike damage after using a Legendary Renegade skill. We've also updated Citadel Bombardment to be significantly more reliable by reducing the spread of its missiles and slightly reduced the energy costs of a handful of renegade skills in PvP.

Power-based herald is another build that needs some help in PvP, and we've made some slight improvements to its damage to make it a more viable option.

• Vicious Reprisal: Increased the might duration from 8 seconds to 10 seconds in PvE and from 6 seconds to 10 seconds in WvW and PvP.
• Charged Mists: Increased the energy gain from 10 to 15 in PvP only.
• Roiling Mists: Increased the bonus critical chance from 10% to 20% in PvP only.

Herald

• Shining Aspects: Increased the base healing to 533 in all game modes.
• Reinforced Potency: Increased the damage bonus per boon from 1% to 1.5% in PvP only.

Renegade

• Heroic Command: Reduced the energy cost from 10 to 5 in PvP only.
• Citadel Bombardment: Reduced the missile spread radius from 240 to 120. Reduced the damage coefficient from 0.452 to 0.225 in WvW and PvP. Reduced the burning duration from 1.5 seconds to 1 second in WvW and PvP. Reduced the energy cost from 30 to 25 in PvP only.
• Icerazor's Ire: Reduced the energy cost from 20 to 15 in PvP only.
• Soulcleave's Summit: Increased the base healing when summoning another warband member from 714 to 929.
• All for One: Increased the protection duration from 2 to 3 in PvP only. This trait now grants increased damage to the revenant when a Legendary Renegade skill is used. This trait will now only trigger while in combat.
• Brutal Momentum: Increased the base critical-hit chance from 10% to 15% in PvP only.
• Vindication: This trait no longer grants might when gaining Kalla's Fervor and instead causes the user to heal for a percentage of their outgoing damage for each stack of Kalla's Fervor.

Edited May 24 by arazoth.7290

[Sonderm.4639]

Did I understand it correctly that they nerfed Vindication for all game modes because no one took it in PVP and they try to sell it as a buff?

Edited May 24 by Sonderm.4639

[Shagie.7612]

I honestly expected a larger set of changes, not just for Rev but everyone. Game's badly in need of a massive update. Heck, it barely even tackled the "underused and underpowered" stuff. No attention to Rev staff/scepter, warrior's rifle, off-hand dagger, maces, etc.

I find it a bit disappointing that they're pushing all 3 elites into power builds for PvP. Or at least trying, instead of focusing on the different gameplay styles. Why not make Renegade the go to condi build, while Herald is a roamer, and Vindicator is a sidenoder, or something like that?

The Vindication nerf is a pretty gigantic nerf for WvW players though. Your average might stacks/uptime plummets without Vindication, and it proooobably won't be a huge amount of healing, because that'd be ridiculous.
In PvP, I really don't want that to turn Renegade into some sort of monster that throws on the new Zakiros relic and presses hammers and heals for a bajillion a second while taking 20% less damage, which is very possible with the change.
That's been like the only thing I've asked for this entire time. It needed some survivability help, but I really don't wanna be a brainless facetanker, and that possibility is the entire reason it got nuked into oblivion back in the day.

The Citadel Bombardment change hopefully makes it more reliable but then they also nuked the damage so hard that I don't know if you'll care to burn the energy on it. You also still can't pre-load because it's a cast time rather than a delayed attack, so it's still real telegraphed and slow.

2 minutes ago, Sonderm.4639 said:

Did I understand it correctly that they nerfed Vindication for all game modes because no one took in PVP and they try to sell it as a buff?

It's silly too cause the reason nobody took it in PvP is because they nerfed the duration to 1s. If it was 3s you'd play it right now. At 1 though, it only ends up being more damage than LL if you never stop attacking for even a single moment, which doesn't happen in PvP.
That said, Lasting Legacy and Vindication both fill extremely similar spots as far as pvp/wvw builds go. Not terribly surprising to see a change but uhh... That's gonna be a very large damage loss for WvW players. From basically perma 25 might to none unless you spend energy on Heroic Command. And All for One will only make up a portion of it since it's strike damage only.

[arazoth.7290]

To start with, I am disappointed in 0 scepter changes, rework, buffs to it... And neither to staff some updates...

 

•Core rev changes: I think overall not bad, gives little bit mote option to pick this also in pvp depending on builds.

•Herald changes: noting spectaculair overall. Still weak to conditions overall without shield + the trait at the trade off for lesser damage.

•renegade changes + suggestions:

-It's nice they reduce energy costs on it and citadel bombardment more reliable hits. 

-Heroic Commandment lower energy on it is allright, but it stays underwhelming ability effect wise.

Suggestions ==> Maybe add 2 damaging conditions aoe cleanse on it aswell.

I think Heroic Commandment could be in pvp 2 might stacks/kalla fervor aswell, in pve this can be 4 might stack/kalla fervor and 3 stacks for WvW too

-Vindication trait coming change + suggestion: If they could up like said above heroic command part, the removal of might by passive attacking wouldn't that be that big then. 

About outgoing damage converted in x% healing. This is kinda passive too, it might up sustain yea, but at an easy cost maybe (so Idk if this is the right direction like many years ago with elite skill passive sustain).

Lasting Legacy trait suggestion: If might gaining/to allies is more covered baseline by heroic command this trait can be changed in something more usefull.

Righteous rebel trait suggestion: ontop already existing effects if Orders from Above is active pulsing boons ==> you and allies convert 3%/Kalla's Fervor stack all incoming damage into healing to all affected while pulsing is active.

Bold Reversal suggestion: Being able to allies in 360 radius too. If resistance is applied by this heal skill, you convert 1 condition into a boon whoever is affected in 360 radius.

Heartpiecer trait suggestion: Blood fury trait increased bleed duration merged with bleed damage increase in here. 

Wrought-Iron Will suggestion: Remove the part where you have you have to evade damage, make it always work if you evade. Regen boon duration doubled.

Blood fury suggestion: on critic hit you apply 1 stack of bleed condition and 1 second weakness condition. The 3 second icd is still here so can't be stacked/spammed high.

Ashen Demeanor suggestion: No clue what here.

Breakrazor's Bastion fix suggestion:  Atleast double amount of barrier for heal skill that has higher cd then other stance abilties. + fix bug outgoing helling modifiers scale 0% healing allies up.

Darkrazor's Daring suggestion:  Daze faster applied to target on pressing the skill. Stability baseline 3 seconds and each enemies hit by daze applies 3 second extra stability (stacks up).

 

Edited May 24 by arazoth.7290
Heroic Commandment pve edit might amount

[Sonderm.4639]

8 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

That's gonna be a very large damage loss for WvW players. From basically perma 25 might to none unless you spend energy on Heroic Command. And All for One will only make up a portion of it since it's strike damage only.

Yeah, have to press Heroic Command on CD now for 15 might. And I started using Bold Reversal to have an additional option to deal with the immob spam in WvW.

 

Edited May 24 by Sonderm.4639

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Why not make Renegade the go to condi build, while Herald is a roamer, and Vindicator is a sidenoder, or something like that?

I'd be all for Renegade Just being the go to condi dps build as long as they rip the alacrity off of it and give it to blue alliance stance.... I want nothing more than to find a use for heal vindi in PvE and to have an actual heal alac spec again. Idk why there perfectly fine with Vindi only being able to play power while they want renegade to be condi, power, and boons. 

Give me Alac heal Vindi and give me a functional scepter please. 

[Shagie.7612]

1 hour ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

I'd be all for Renegade Just being the go to condi dps build as long as they rip the alacrity off of it and give it to blue alliance stance.... I want nothing more than to find a use for heal vindi in PvE and to have an actual heal alac spec again. Idk why there perfectly fine with Vindi only being able to play power while they want renegade to be condi, power, and boons. 

I don't PvE, and rarely WvW anymore, so tbh I don't particularly care which is the boon dpser/support because that's not exactly a role or reason you choose something in pvp, it's usually the rest of their kit and then whether they alac or quick is just bonus. Heck, Alac/Quick are almost entirely removed from WvW at this point anyways and it wouldn't surprise me if Ren was the next to lose it, so go wild anyways I guess.

Anyways, my grievance is more that by pushing them all to power builds, you've already locked half their trait and legend choices. All 3 will play Shiro, because you have to if you want to ever kill anyone. The only way that'll change is if they create a bunker build that never needs to escape, which is probably pretty unlikely to happen.
Personally, I'd love for the competitive Ren build to be Mallyx/Kalla because it's my favorite combo and I think a very fun alternative playstyle, but that's just my personal bias.

But anyways, three power specs wouldn't be entirely unworkable, but there's not a lot to further differentiate the three after you pick Shiro. You'll just pick whichever is the strongest (which is at this point almost always going to be Vindicator simply based on skill design) based on the tuning of that patch and all three will play relatively similarly in spite of different legend choices.

Why don't any of them focus on delivering damage differently, like burst vs sustain, pokes and harrass vs hard engages, low cost/low CD small attacks versus high cost/high CD scary ones, and so on?
If they aren't willing to explore the other damage type, why not explore different roles for the elites?

Edited May 25 by Shagie.7612

[Jobber.6348]

Vindication change is awkward but I can understand why it happened. 

It's SO GOOD for self Might, it makes Lasting Legacy redundant. But in classic Anet fashion, they rather change an offending trait than tackle the problem directly of Heroic Command being a sore spot in the design and gameplay flow of Renegade.

Let's look at bright sides here then: It heals for Outgoing damage, meaning both Strike and Condition damage is going to take advantage of this. Coupled with some buffs to Strike damage via Kalla stance skills with new All For One, I can see this being a drawback change to prevent people from sustaining self 25 Might AND having more Strike damage. You know what, fine, cool, I want to try it first before I bash it but I'm just gonna be upfront and say I'm still not a fan of their balancing philosophy. 

Meanwhile, no talk about Scepter, so they STILL THINK IT'S FINE. Also no talk about Swords when Swords has been trash forever. No talk about Vindicator. Herald buffs are like LOL in the grand scheme of things. Vicious Reprisal buff out of nowhere but the fact remains the Might Stacking of this trait is awkward at best.

So where does this leave us with Revenant in PvP? What I'm getting here is they're trying to sell to us a Renegade build which primarily plays hybrid Condi and Power with a splash of tankiness by running Kalla/Jalis and using Invo - Retri - Rene to be a node controller. New Tyrant Amulet looks rather attractive for this sort of build, and Vindication healing being a lifesteal instead of relying on Healing Power would make it a rather powerful sustain tool for on-node combat. All For One would provide protection and strike damage. Retribution would provide Resolution condi protection via dodge rolling, projectile hate and some Strike damage and Might upkeep from Vicious Reprisal. Heroic Command for a burst of Might in general but would never reach the old levels of Might upkeep from old Vindication. 

But here's the thing for me: I'm primarily a WvW roamer and duelist. These changes absolutely mess up my WvW roaming build. I'll have to see how I can try and adapt my Renegade build into some sort of tank monster but not sacrifice too much mobility which is more important in WvW than being a rock. Meanwhile Guardian gets no nerfs to Willbender HAHA!

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, UncreativeGreen.2019 said:

II want nothing more than to find a use for heal vindi in PvE and to have an actual heal alac spec again. Idk why there perfectly fine with Vindi only being able to play power while they want renegade to be condi, power, and boons. 

Give me Alac heal Vindi and give me a functional scepter please. 

   I hope not. There's no way they'll give alac to Vindi without botching things "to compensate", and Vindi works perfectly as currently is. Alac also works bad with the class in general since for self use energy is a constraint, and for support.... well, alacrity is usually provided by healers, and Rev has the most awkward healer builds in the game. So I don't see the need to crush Vindi (which works well as it is) in exchange for buffing the support of healer variants which never will be meta. As example: to provide a new "support weapon" (scepter), they botchered the mace, so now Rev has a weaker mace and a useless scepter.

   So no thanks, don't mess alacrity with Vindicator. 

[Shagie.7612]

can't wait to play like, jalis/kalla with zakiros relic while i become a wall of beef
you already heal like 300hp/s on zerk amulet with just hammers on live lol

idk, i suggested giving it some lifesteal a ways back because it's an all-in spec, when you commit to the fight you're in for the long haul and a bunch of other brawlers and teamfighters have much better sustain (like scrapper's version), but i really, really don't want another condi zerk situation

[Tobias.4975]

After due consideration, i'm very disapointed. No changes to scepter, which feels very clunky, especially the autotattack. + no changes to staff. Can you remove or reduce the cast time from 1 second from skill 5, pls? It was ok that you nerved it, but for today it feels very outdated. Scepter 3 is buggy, it goes on cd without any effect if you target a npc and no other player or his/her pet, or if your target stands behind you. Targeting enemies makes no sense, cause it's garbage, so pls remove this part of that skill.

Please, ask you the following question(s): Is scepter in its current stat a good weapon? Would i play it as a healer? (unnecessary question, cause you nerfed mace, so you need to play it...)

Back to the bugs: Did you know, that there is a bug with Vindicator's dodge underwater? (little joke) Guys, please fix it. The bug exists way too long.

While we are talking about Vindicator: sadly i see no dps- or cc- buff for PowerVindicator. PowerReaper and PowerHarbringer doing the same / more amount of damage, plus they do a lot more groupsupport due a huge amount of cc + boon-remove/corrupt. As well Reaper got -50% dmg while in shroud and PowerHarbringer will get a temporary damagreduction, too.

Archemorus on Vindicator was ment as part of a selfish dps-profession. Where is the dps-increas for it's selfishness? -> Switching to victor for support is like shooting your rotation, then you are master of nothing. There is a reason you see no Vindicators in fractals. Other dps-specs doing way better.

When do the "cat's" of Kalla a therapy against hydrophobia, or when get the Ventari'tablet a floating tire for underwater?😁(To be fair, the engineer mech need's to be made waterproof, too.)

Final question: Can you make your balancing system more transparent, please? Because some changes or changes that are not made i don't understand. If i understand it, i will be totaly fine with it. i think that some people will agree with this opinion.

Please don't get me wrong, i don't want you to have to justify your work, but if there is some kind of table for balancing, please show it to us. Understanding is the first step to Accepting.

 

 

[Buran.3796]

^ I don't have answers about "why", but my guess is that developers assume that if you want to play power Rev in instanecd PvE your choice should be power qHerald, and if you want a not support power build then you't choice will be power Virtuoso. That's whe "why", imo.

   I don't play instanced content and in PvE I don'r run power Vindi so I have 0 problems with their approach. Power Vindi works well at PvP and ok at WvW; celestial/condi is a beast in PvE; I don't need/expec anything else  so the less changes they make the better, specially since every "gift" comes along nerfing things that currently work. That's why I have 0 interest in new weapons/specs and instead would jusyt like to have better content (funnier PvE maps, new PvP maps or game modes, deep changes in WvW). I don't want Rev to fill new roles has having stealth or pets, etc... Which are already covered by another professions and at which Rev will just be a worse iteration (the same as Specter is a worse iteration of the shroud  mechanic from necros). 

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, Tobias.4975 said:

After due consideration, i'm very disapointed. No changes to scepter, which feels very clunky, especially the autotattack. + no changes to staff. Can you remove or reduce the cast time from 1 second from skill 5, pls? It was ok that you nerfed it, but for today it feels very outdated. 

Honestly, the windup should have been reverted when the damage was removed in competitive. The reason it was given the windup was that it was a big spike that coincided with a nasty CC, and that required a big tell to give it some counterplay. Now, though, in competitive modes it's basically just another knockback except that you move with the target - I think it manages to do even LESS damage than most other CC skills, because they compensated for multiple hits by dividing the coefficient per hit by ten. The big tell is no longer needed or justified.

[phokus.8934]

Cal made a quick mention of it during one of the latest balance streams that the windup will never go away with him at the helm.

[Jobber.6348]

6 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Honestly, the windup should have been reverted when the damage was removed in competitive. The reason it was given the windup was that it was a big spike that coincided with a nasty CC, and that required a big tell to give it some counterplay. Now, though, in competitive modes it's basically just another knockback except that you move with the target - I think it manages to do even LESS damage than most other CC skills, because they compensated for multiple hits by dividing the coefficient per hit by ten. The big tell is no longer needed or justified.

And even if people argue that you can channel IO during the skill's multihit, you only realistically get to do this if you have:
1. Energy to facilitate skill cast AND IO flipping
2. Your target is absolutely lobotomized
3. You come in at a right angle where all hits land because it's a knockback, meaning enemies get pushed out of the way if hit at an angle

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Yasai.3549 said:

And even if people argue that you can channel IO during the skill's multihit, you only realistically get to do this if you have:
1. Energy to facilitate skill cast AND IO flipping
2. Your target is absolutely lobotomized
3. You come in at a right angle where all hits land because it's a knockback, meaning enemies get pushed out of the way if hit at an angle

And IO has an internal cooldown, so you're not getting seven IO hits out of it.

[Jobber.6348]

9 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

And IO has an internal cooldown, so you're not getting seven IO hits out of it.

Yea exactly. I really hate the whole balancing decision regarding Staff. Just rework it already. You hate it fine, don't leave it in an utterly distasteful state. 

[Shagie.7612]

I didn't expect it at all, but I would have liked to see weapons reworked so that staff is like, the go-to support/defensive weapon for power, and then there's a similar choice for condi builds. Like Warrior used to have with shield and off-hand sword (until they giga buffed impale/rip and riposte so shield got dropped for everyone lol)
And then probably need a separate healer weapon, but y'know.

Basically, I don't think staff does a very good job anymore as the defensive weaponset, for surviving or stalling for CDs/energy or whatever, even for power builds.

For a patch aiming to tackle underused and underpowered stuff, it sure isn't adding a lot that'll change up PvP/WvW builds for anyone.

[Sereath.1428]

Staff is bad because it simply tells your opponent:
"They swapped to staff, it's time to freecast while being 100% safe."
Thanks to having no damage and one of the most telegraphed CCs in the game, so it's just unreliable for everything.
That's also one good reason why Power Herald has been mediocre. It folds without staff, but staff is also just mediocre.

By the way, another reason why they don't remove the awful root from Shield 5 is that if they did, people would stop using staff altogether.

Edited May 26 by Sereath.1428

[Jobber.6348]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Basically, I don't think staff does a very good job anymore as the defensive weaponset, for surviving or stalling for CDs/energy or whatever, even for power builds.

It's because Revenant Power weapons have been stomped into the dirt for competitive.

Release GS: nerfed

Swords: a joke

OH Axe: Worth using but without a good mainhand, what's the point

With your options being poor main damage weapons, a defensive stall weapon set just becomes a liability, so you need to run two damage sets instead with one being capable of defending with. That's why Power builds are now using Hammer main(the new boi) and Greatsword as the defensive set. Hammer is was recently changed to be a good sustained damage weapon which was what Revenant needed for their Power ranged option because being in melee against all the meta classes was way too unviable. That allows GS to be used as a defensive swap that could still dish out some damage so you aren't totally toothless when forced to be on the defensive. 

For Condi, Shortbow is strong and Mace/Shield is still acceptable due to the saving grace which is Ammo based Echoing Eruption in competitive (PRAISE THE LORD NOW BRING IT TO PVE) 

Edited May 26 by Yasai.3549

[Buran.3796]

   I like staff for PvP. But that's because I run Alliance + Jalis greatsword & staff with demolisher amulet, Warrior rune and anti toxic relic. That means that most sidenoders can't kill me and I can bait burst in teamfights for ages. Foes oftenly think that I'll run a glass cannon Vindi and deplete their cooldowns on me just to find out constant evades, three blocks, three breakstuns, access to stability,  damage mitigation, lost of regen and17 condition cleanses x cycle. Staff works well there (typically in Jalis) because has two blocks, a blind, cleanses and  cc, and when I'm done with it I can swap to gs to either counter attack or keep blocking and move away with Phantom & Alliance skills.

   Tho, PvP is the only part of the game in which I touch staff. In PvE/WvW is a waste of space.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Still no love for support vindicator. Despite it's been getting consistently asked for.

[ArthurDent.9538]

On 5/25/2024 at 1:14 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Honestly, the windup should have been reverted when the damage was removed in competitive. The reason it was given the windup was that it was a big spike that coincided with a nasty CC, and that required a big tell to give it some counterplay. Now, though, in competitive modes it's basically just another knockback except that you move with the target - I think it manages to do even LESS damage than most other CC skills, because they compensated for multiple hits by dividing the coefficient per hit by ten. The big tell is no longer needed or justified.

I will continue to stand on the hill that SotM should get decent damage back as a way to incentivize actually trying to land it. Mechanically it's a really cool skill where it hits more times depending on how well you aim it, however because it does negligible damage and cc's don't really stack in duration, there is basically no reason to try to actually land the skill perfectly anymore. All it needs is like .1 coefficient per impact to make it rewarding but non oppressive. To be frank, with its insanely clunky rooted windup a stupidly high coefficient still wouldn't really be oppressive since it is so easy to avoid only braindead people who don't press wasd and deserve to die would get hit by it.

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

I will continue to stand on the hill that SotM should get decent damage back as a way to incentivize actually trying to land it. Mechanically it's a really cool skill where it hits more times depending on how well you aim it, however because it does negligible damage and cc's don't really stack in duration, there is basically no reason to try to actually land the skill perfectly anymore. All it needs is like .1 coefficient per impact to make it rewarding but non oppressive. To be frank, with its insanely clunky rooted windup a stupidly high coefficient still wouldn't really be oppressive since it is so easy to avoid only braindead people who don't press wasd and deserve to die would get hit by it.

Well, that was the point of the windup - giving people plenty of opportunity to dodge it. But then they took away the damage and left the windup...

[Shagie.7612]

I don't know if they'll make any extra additions, but given what we've seen here, even with these changes, why would I pick Herald or Renegade over power Vindi even after this patch in PvP?
Like, Herald's not gonna do significantly more damage than Vindicator (if it even ends up being more damage), but Vindi also has many other advantages and options available to it over Herald.

Support, duelist, roamer, sidenoder, any time we've seen Rev in one of those roles in the last year or so, it's been Vindicator in any form of competitive play.
Back in Feb 2023, someone can fact check that,  a condi herald won an MAT, but other than that it's either been Vindicator or entirely absent since EoD dropped over two years ago. What gives?
I don't understand why they won't make large enough changes to actually give the different rev elites different strengths, or damage types, or damage delivery methods. Something to actually make them a consideration.

I know it's not very good right now, but something like Scourge, for example, is very different from condi Reaper in terms of how it plays, how it's trying to achieve a win and what it can bring to a team, despite both being condi builds.

 

Edited May 30 by Shagie.7612