Who is open world content made for?

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

a still so very popular full soldier setup

Where are you even getting this information from? You don't even get soldier gear from lvl 80 boost anymore.

Edited May 28 by Sobx.1758

[Zok.4956]

2 hours ago, leila.7962 said:

With that in mind, easy to join in and always win metas will get old fast. People enjoy the sense of doing harder things and getting better.

I don't think that easy always win metas generally get old fast. As an example: I did a few world boss events not too long ago (for sentimental reasons). This is content that is many years old and not challenging, and yet (no matter what time I took part) they were still very well attended and popular.

Of course, this is not for players who want a challenge. But there still seems to be a large number of players who like this kind of loot pinata. I mean that in a non-judgmental way, without being derogatory. That doesn't mean that these players can't do better, or are bad players, they just have different priorities and like different things in the game than those who run CMs regularly. 

Someone once told me: "The pyramid is widest at the base". This means for a game like GW2 and it's PvE: The base of the pyramid (with the most players) is relatively easy open world content/metas and the top of the pyramid are a few players (compared to the base) who do CMs.

 

Edited May 28 by Zok.4956

[Vayne.8563]

On 5/27/2024 at 8:27 PM, Skub.8240 said:

Silverwastes is still frequently dead unless someone tags up - at least in my experience - and I've still only seen single digit numbers of soo-won completions, and most attempts don't even make it to the fight.

It's one of the most consistently done metas in the game.  Probably more times a day than most metas on a schedule. The difference is, it's not on a timer.  There's often a farm group running and it's the best farm for free to play players, so it's almost always populated.  Obviously putting up a tag will help any meta along.

[Hsanrb.1570]

14 minutes ago, Zok.4956 said:

Someone once told me: "The pyramid is widest at the base". This means for a game like GW2 and it's PvE: The base of the pyramid (with the most players) is relatively easy open world content/metas and the top of the pyramid are a few players (compared to the base) who do CMs.

 

I don't think it has to be relatively easy, open world metas are generally really chill... you get people talking and joking and sometimes the humor gets people to crack a smile and laugh. Its less about the actual content, or even the actual loot... but more a social gathering that just uses the map and the content Arena Net provides as a way to engage with the community. When it fails you get people who are taking it a bit too serious to be vocally outraged about failure to CC, but generally its a good time to be had by everyone. Yes these tend to be the people who just show up with what they have and just want to beat the snot out of something, but that's the best part of the open world... you don't have to look at numbers or crunch the latest builds, just bring a weapon and some skills and just hit things.

Yes there can be hard metas, yes Arena Net could throw some challenge into them from time to time, but generally most people who reliably do the open world content are just there for a good time with a hundred (or more) of their closest allies. Difficulty, scaling, or even the time of day doesn't matter to this crowd... they just come and be them and have a great time and thats what gaming needs more of. There is a time and a place for finely tuned builds and crunching those numbers to do 1% more DPS than the last attempt, but the Open world meta that Guild Wars 2 provides is definitely not that.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

18 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You clearly do not know how the traits and stats on gear work, and how big impact they have on your dps.

I'm confused how you made this mental leap from what I said to that. 

It's impressive really. 

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

I'm confused how you made this mental leap from what I said to that.

Well, you were the one claiming that 5k is what you do naked while autoattacking. This clearly shows you have no idea whatsoever about how damage system works in this game.

[Jedrik.3109]

Edit: deleted my comment due to my active stupidity.

My opinions should never be read or considered in any discussion. Please block me in case I succumb to my weaknesses to interact with normal people. 

Edited May 30 by Jedrik.3109
I ask that everyone block me please, in case I ever respond to any post. Thank you.

[Smol.7985]

The OP is either NA player or just trolling .

[kharmin.7683]

6 hours ago, Smol.7985 said:

The OP is either NA player or just trolling .

No need to paint all of the NA players with such a broad brush.

[keramatzmode.1906]

On 5/27/2024 at 9:44 PM, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Eventually the people with mismatched green and blue gears will stop having a fun time constantly failing the meta and give up so people doing more than 5 k dps can take their spot. This is now metas that require more than 2 brain cells work, the unwashed masses rush into it, clogging the queues, taking up spots of people who know what their doing. 

Honestly they really need is some way that if your dps is too low, you do no healing, you provide no boons or rezes, and you sit full dead under the boss refusing to waypoint, you are ejected from the map so someone else can take your spot.

They game really needs a way to tell player that they suck, not allow them to do 2k dps with no support and get "gold" 200% participation. This give them the tools ingame to help them get better, possibly post encounter stats like the dps golem with a gear inspect for people in your squad. That why they can see who is doing the lifting and be able to see what gear they need to reach that potential.

They already tried with HoT open world that practically screams at you PLEASE DODGE.. It didn't go well.

[Vayne.8563]

On 5/28/2024 at 12:13 AM, Zeperio.4853 said:

what is the huge difference? both are open world events that literally anyone who has access to the map can join

Games are about progression. People want to feel progression. Once you get to level 80, you're no longer leveling. Once you get your masteries, you're no longer getting masteries. What's left is skill progression. People get better at the game. Some people will only get a little better, and some people will get much better, depending on how much time and effort they put into it. Getting better at a game is the goal of most games.

There are dozens of open world metas in the game now. Only a couple of them are harder. Saying they shouldn't exist, is like saying I demand all content be for me and no one else.  Everyone has access to the same gear, the same classes, the same elite specs. Everyone can look up a build or try to make a good one on their own. 

And no one can stop anyone from participating in a meta. They can, at most, kick you out of a squad, which isn't really a problem because you can still do the meta.  Most metas aren't gatekept. There are usually enough people that know what's going on to get the meta done. But sometimes, in some metas, that's not the case and when that happens those metas fail. There are three options. You learn the meta and do better  next time, you never do the meta again, or you refuse to learn, keep doing the same thing, and hope people carry you through.

To be honest, there are plenty of people carried through metas, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Not everyone has the time, the inclination or even the ability to get better. But you can't gatekeep a meta, because it's not possible. Nothing stops casual open world players have any skill from participating. 

If your suggest, however, is that all metas need to be easiest enough for the lowest common denominator to do with no chance of failure, that's just a bad take. Everyone can get better if they want to, even if it's just a little. Why should the game be made for people who only care about what they want, and not what anyone else wants?

[Ashen.2907]

33 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Games are about progression. People want to feel progression. Once you get to level 80, you're no longer leveling. Once you get your masteries, you're no longer getting masteries. What's left is skill progression. People get better at the game. Some people will only get a little better, and some people will get much better, depending on how much time and effort they put into it. Getting better at a game is the goal of most games.

There are dozens of open world metas in the game now. Only a couple of them are harder. Saying they shouldn't exist, is like saying I demand all content be for me and no one else.  Everyone has access to the same gear, the same classes, the same elite specs. Everyone can look up a build or try to make a good one on their own. 

And no one can stop anyone from participating in a meta. They can, at most, kick you out of a squad, which isn't really a problem because you can still do the meta.  Most metas aren't gatekept. There are usually enough people that know what's going on to get the meta done. But sometimes, in some metas, that's not the case and when that happens those metas fail. There are three options. You learn the meta and do better  next time, you never do the meta again, or you refuse to learn, keep doing the same thing, and hope people carry you through.

To be honest, there are plenty of people carried through metas, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Not everyone has the time, the inclination or even the ability to get better. But you can't gatekeep a meta, because it's not possible. Nothing stops casual open world players have any skill from participating. 

If your suggest, however, is that all metas need to be easiest enough for the lowest common denominator to do with no chance of failure, that's just a bad take. Everyone can get better if they want to, even if it's just a little. Why should the game be made for people who only care about what they want, and not what anyone else wants?

Exactly.

Variety is the spice of life. Some metas may be relaxing, chat with your friends, laid back events while others may ask more of each participant. Having some of each is a good thing.

[Skub.8240]

1 hour ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Games are about progression. People want to feel progression. Once you get to level 80, you're no longer leveling. Once you get your masteries, you're no longer getting masteries. What's left is skill progression. People get better at the game. Some people will only get a little better, and some people will get much better, depending on how much time and effort they put into it. Getting better at a game is the goal of most games.

There are dozens of open world metas in the game now. Only a couple of them are harder. Saying they shouldn't exist, is like saying I demand all content be for me and no one else.  Everyone has access to the same gear, the same classes, the same elite specs. Everyone can look up a build or try to make a good one on their own. 

And no one can stop anyone from participating in a meta. They can, at most, kick you out of a squad, which isn't really a problem because you can still do the meta.  Most metas aren't gatekept. There are usually enough people that know what's going on to get the meta done. But sometimes, in some metas, that's not the case and when that happens those metas fail. There are three options. You learn the meta and do better  next time, you never do the meta again, or you refuse to learn, keep doing the same thing, and hope people carry you through.

To be honest, there are plenty of people carried through metas, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Not everyone has the time, the inclination or even the ability to get better. But you can't gatekeep a meta, because it's not possible. Nothing stops casual open world players have any skill from participating. 

If your suggest, however, is that all metas need to be easiest enough for the lowest common denominator to do with no chance of failure, that's just a bad take. Everyone can get better if they want to, even if it's just a little. Why should the game be made for people who only care about what they want, and not what anyone else wants?

But following this very logic means there should be easy raids for the 5k dps people because we need variety, right? So people wouldn't be mad if, after like five years, the next raid was geared entirely around people who struggle to take down outdated HoT champs, surely.

And that there, is basically the flaw with this argument. There is plenty of content already for people who want to target a higher skill floor and get better at the game, and I wholly disagree that, that should be the open world content's duty as well.

[yoni.7015]

6 minutes ago, Skub.8240 said:

But following this very logic means there should be easy raids

There are raid wings that are easier than others. And there is the emboldened mode. 
Instanced content has different difficulties, why shouldn’t open world?

We are talking about two meta events in the whole game that are a bit more challenging than the rest. 

Edited May 30 by yoni.7015

[Ashen.2907]

17 minutes ago, Skub.8240 said:

But following this very logic means there should be easy raids for the 5k dps people because we need variety, right? So people wouldn't be mad if, after like five years, the next raid was geared entirely around people who struggle to take down outdated HoT champs, surely.

And that there, is basically the flaw with this argument. There is plenty of content already for people who want to target a higher skill floor and get better at the game, and I wholly disagree that, that should be the open world content's duty as well.

Or, the logic could mean that there should be easy instanced content for the 5k dps people....and there is.

[Cuks.8241]

2 hours ago, Skub.8240 said:

But following this very logic means there should be easy raids for the 5k dps people because we need variety, right? So people wouldn't be mad if, after like five years, the next raid was geared entirely around people who struggle to take down outdated HoT champs, surely.

And that there, is basically the flaw with this argument. There is plenty of content already for people who want to target a higher skill floor and get better at the game, and I wholly disagree that, that should be the open world content's duty as well.

But there are. Raids can be a bit incosistent in difficulty but there are easy starter bosses and a difficulty curve.

And strikes have a very clear difficulty curve and normal strikes dont have dps requirement. (HT being exception I guess).

[Vayne.8563]

3 hours ago, Skub.8240 said:

But following this very logic means there should be easy raids for the 5k dps people because we need variety, right? So people wouldn't be mad if, after like five years, the next raid was geared entirely around people who struggle to take down outdated HoT champs, surely.

And that there, is basically the flaw with this argument. There is plenty of content already for people who want to target a higher skill floor and get better at the game, and I wholly disagree that, that should be the open world content's duty as well.

There is a great variety of raids, some of them harder and some of them easier. The thing about raids is that a good tank and healer could carry a group that does mediocre DPS. I know, because I've beaten every raid boss. There are people who train raids, and most people could do at least the easy ones. There are raid bosses I have a lot of trouble with and raid bosses I find much easier. But beyond that, Anet has introduced emboldened mode, and rotates that mode through one raid wing a week. It makes raiding much much easier as well. 

But putting all that aside, the entire game is for casual players, by and large. There's a very small percentage of content for hard core players. What you're saying is that they deserve no content because you can't play it, even though 90% of the content in the game isn't really for them at all. You want access to everything, even if they won't enjoy most of what you enjoy. That doesn't sound very fair.

The only real issue I saw with raids is that it as the only way to get PVE legendary armor, and that's no longer the case. No, not everything needs to be made for everyone. It was never my argument, and it's not really a fair argument, or everything would have to be easy enough for the worst player in the game to beat and that would inevitably mean there wouldn't be enough players interested in the game to continue playing it. The game would go out of business, but at least it would be fair, right?

The whole argument is silly.  If the vast majority of the game is for casuals and they throw the occasional bone to hard core players, causals should be okay with that. And you know, Strikes are essentially single boss raids, and at least three of those are very easy. 

[Zepiuz.6713]

5 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Games are about progression. People want to feel progression. Once you get to level 80, you're no longer leveling. Once you get your masteries, you're no longer getting masteries. What's left is skill progression. People get better at the game. Some people will only get a little better, and some people will get much better, depending on how much time and effort they put into it. Getting better at a game is the goal of most games.

There are dozens of open world metas in the game now. Only a couple of them are harder. Saying they shouldn't exist, is like saying I demand all content be for me and no one else.  Everyone has access to the same gear, the same classes, the same elite specs. Everyone can look up a build or try to make a good one on their own. 

And no one can stop anyone from participating in a meta. They can, at most, kick you out of a squad, which isn't really a problem because you can still do the meta.  Most metas aren't gatekept. There are usually enough people that know what's going on to get the meta done. But sometimes, in some metas, that's not the case and when that happens those metas fail. There are three options. You learn the meta and do better  next time, you never do the meta again, or you refuse to learn, keep doing the same thing, and hope people carry you through.

To be honest, there are plenty of people carried through metas, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Not everyone has the time, the inclination or even the ability to get better. But you can't gatekeep a meta, because it's not possible. Nothing stops casual open world players have any skill from participating. 

If your suggest, however, is that all metas need to be easiest enough for the lowest common denominator to do with no chance of failure, that's just a bad take. Everyone can get better if they want to, even if it's just a little. Why should the game be made for people who only care about what they want, and not what anyone else wants?

It is safe to say that the average player can only progress up to a certain point in the openworld and we have already reached that point, and yet you guys want to go past that point once again it was already done once and it was a failure. Proof is when they released the Soo-won meta, it received a huge backlash for being too difficult for an openworld meta event, and it is not even as hard as the easeiest strike missions we have in the game. You should not expect a raid level skill progression to be learned by casual players in the open world, that defeats the purpose of a casual friendly exploration game which is what GW2 is all about.

New expansions are just new maps for everyone including new players. It is unreasonable to expect "new expansion = harder OPENWORLD content", but if we are talkinbg about "new expansion = harder INSTANCED content" then that is reasonable and should actually always be the case and actually is the case right now. Fractals was specifically made for that exact purpose. It wasn't enough so they released strikes. Now we have Strike CMs and even Convergences CMs. If they did what you guys are suggesting this game would just be another tryhard openworld skyrim/warcraftesque 2nd rate game and would have less players than it has now.

[yoni.7015]

8 minutes ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

You should not expect a raid level skill progression to be learned by casual players in the open world

We don’t and nothing in open world is raid level. 

 

9 minutes ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

Proof is when they released the Soo-won meta, it received a huge backlash

Did it though? Soo Won was definitely not a failure and the “huge backlash” were some few who complained about its difficulty. I ran around 250 successful Soo Won metas.
The meta created several huge community guilds. That’s not failure. 

[Zepiuz.6713]

2 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

We don’t and nothing in open world is raid level. 

 

Did it though? Soo Won was definitely not a failure and the “huge backlash” were some few who complained about its difficulty. I ran around 250 successful Soo Won metas.
The meta created several huge community guilds. That’s not failure. 

they would not have nerfed it a few times if it was a success

Edited May 30 by Zeperio.4853

[yoni.7015]

1 minute ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

they would not have nerfed it a few times if it was a success

What? That’s nonsense and doesn’t say anything about how successful or not it was. 

You should realize that your definition of what open world should be is not the only one valid. There should be events in open world for everyone. 

[Zepiuz.6713]

1 minute ago, yoni.7015 said:

What? That’s nonsense and doesn’t say anything about how successful or not it was. 

You should realize that your definition of what open world should be is not the only one valid. There should be events in open world for everyone. 

 ahh and they wouldn't have nerfed it if it was just a vocal minority who was complaining about it, so there is another proof that it's not just a minority who was complaining about it 😊 

Edit: Just stating facts of the current situation hehe

Edited May 30 by Zeperio.4853

[Manpag.6421]

4 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Variety is the spice of life. Some metas may be relaxing, chat with your friends, laid back events while others may ask more of each participant. Having some of each is a good thing.

I agree, both have a place, but I think the issue is partly that the metas in the game at the moment don't consistently offer rewards proportionate to the time and effort needed to complete them.

All metas should be rewarding, because else they won't be done, and that reward should be fair considering the time the meta takes. Imo, it makes sense for all metas to have a fairly consistent up-front reward (i.e. drops that are common enough and can be easily turner into gold), while the potential for massively valuable rewards like infusions should be reserved for metas on the more hardcore/organised end of the spectrum.

I think two interesting extremes are Gyala Delve and Choya Piñata. Gyala Delve gives pretty consistent value, but has no uber-rare drops, has a big time commitment, and while not difficult, does have some DPS checks and mechanics that players need to be aware of to succeed. As a result, it's infamous for not being run much. On the flip side, Choya Piñata doesn’t give much reliable reward but has the potential for an ultra rare infusion drop, doesn’t require players to play the pre-events, and is a literal piñata that dies in seconds with no skill requirement. The potential reward vs the minimal time and skill commitment required for it means it almost always well attended.

I personally enjoy more casual metas more, but I’m willing to put more thought into my play and engage with an organised group if I feel the rewards are worth it. i’m sure there are some players who prioritise metas with a chance of an infusion drop, while others may avoid those preferring more stable and reliable rewards.

[yoni.7015]

Just now, Zeperio.4853 said:

 ahh and they wouldn't have nerfed it if it was just a vocal minority who was complaining about it, so there is another proof that it's not just a minority who was complaining about it 😊 

It was a bit overturned at first and got nerfed. That’s pretty normal in MMOs. Look how other games nerf raid bosses for example. 
But again, that’s not an indicator that it was a success or not. 

[Vayne.8563]

42 minutes ago, Zeperio.4853 said:

It is safe to say that the average player can only progress up to a certain point in the openworld and we have already reached that point, and yet you guys want to go past that point once again it was already done once and it was a failure. Proof is when they released the Soo-won meta, it received a huge backlash for being too difficult for an openworld meta event, and it is not even as hard as the easeiest strike missions we have in the game. You should not expect a raid level skill progression to be learned by casual players in the open world, that defeats the purpose of a casual friendly exploration game which is what GW2 is all about.

New expansions are just new maps for everyone including new players. It is unreasonable to expect "new expansion = harder OPENWORLD content", but if we are talkinbg about "new expansion = harder INSTANCED content" then that is reasonable and should actually always be the case and actually is the case right now. Fractals was specifically made for that exact purpose. It wasn't enough so they released strikes. Now we have Strike CMs and even Convergences CMs. If they did what you guys are suggesting this game would just be another tryhard openworld skyrim/warcraftesque 2nd rate game and would have less players than it has now.

Actually, you're trying to tell me what Guild Wars 2 is all about, but that's not what the devs have said Guild Wars 2 is all about. They talked about building a community. Casual exploring is usually done solo, and it's often not a community activity. The devs did talk about a living breathing world, but they never said an easy world. 

Yes, there was a backlash against Dragon's End, but the biggest problem Anet had was locking the turtle egg behind that. You hardly hear the same thing about Triple Trouble, because it has nothing you actually need locked behind it. 

Also, HoT is probably the most popular expansion over all, but it's also the hardest, and there was plenty of complaining about that. But far fewer people say POF or EOD were better expansions.

It's nice that you decided what this game was about. What I think it's about is offering different experiences for people who like different things. It's easy to say things, but you also have to back those things up.