Spears and Mesmers

[Curunen.8729]

1 hour ago, bq pd.2148 said:

only if the power scaling is increased. currently the ambush skill does too little damage and regardless of what we get on land, the aquatic ambush needs more damage.

Fair, I agree it is a bit weak.

[Rezok.2709]

15 hours ago, Geronmy.3298 said:

Dagger already has  good cleave and greatsword as aoe in the kit, what we dont have are aoe condi weapons.

If you're gonna call dagger and greatsword good AoE, then we absolutely also have an AoE condi weapon; staff. Two AoE abilities on there and the AA when used with 3 clones hits a lot of enemies.

GS is sort of AoE, but also not really. Phantasms needs enemies to be very stacked to be AoE. Skill 2 bounces to allies, at best it's a cleave - not really much AoE. AA is definitely not AoE, and even if you want to cleave it requires you to target enemies in the back, making it clunky to use for that. That leaves only skill 3 as a good AoE, which I agree it is. But most of GS is simply too reliant on all the enemies having a very specific positioning, and even so it's just cleave. It's just clearly not designed to be AoE - it's just a matter of basically all weapons in GW2 being somewhat multitarget. But compare to for example necro or guardian GS and you'll see how an actual AoE weapon functions.

Dagger is the same. Not an actual AoE weapon. Yes, it hits more than one target (like every weapon in the game), but it's a piercing weapon with a single AoE ability (skill 3).

So overall, I don't actually think we have a proper weapon designed for power AoE. Having multitarget abilities =/= AoE.

[draxynnic.3719]

6 hours ago, Rezok.2709 said:

If you're gonna call dagger and greatsword good AoE, then we absolutely also have an AoE condi weapon; staff. Two AoE abilities on there and the AA when used with 3 clones hits a lot of enemies.

GS is sort of AoE, but also not really. Phantasms needs enemies to be very stacked to be AoE. Skill 2 bounces to allies, at best it's a cleave - not really much AoE. AA is definitely not AoE, and even if you want to cleave it requires you to target enemies in the back, making it clunky to use for that. That leaves only skill 3 as a good AoE, which I agree it is. But most of GS is simply too reliant on all the enemies having a very specific positioning, and even so it's just cleave. It's just clearly not designed to be AoE - it's just a matter of basically all weapons in GW2 being somewhat multitarget. But compare to for example necro or guardian GS and you'll see how an actual AoE weapon functions.

Dagger is the same. Not an actual AoE weapon. Yes, it hits more than one target (like every weapon in the game), but it's a piercing weapon with a single AoE ability (skill 3).

So overall, I don't actually think we have a proper weapon designed for power AoE. Having multitarget abilities =/= AoE.

Greatsword can be AoE if playing Mirage, but power mirage still seems to be in the zone where you play it for farming or for fun rather than because it's particularly strong.

I think dagger can qualify, though, at least better than staff or greatsword. The autoattack pierce isn't too hard to hit multiple targets with - and you don't need to aim at a target at the back like with beams. The spread attack can often hit quite a few enemies (albeit probably not with all three blades) and the third skill is a decent AoE and still launches additional blades to hit enemies outside the area.

Still doesn't really compete with the real AoE weapons on other professions, though. And if we're thinking of it being a melee weapon (although with guardian and necro now revealed to be melee, there aren't many professions left who can be using spear as a casting focus, so I'm starting to think it likely will be ranged), axe does reasonably well as a melee condi weapon (or at least it does when mirage is allowed to be good), while sword is fairly defensive-oriented, so there's probably more need for a high-damage power melee weapon than a condi melee weapon. If it's ranged, though... I could see them deciding to make spear a ranged condition weapon and pushing staff more into a support role.

Gotta say, though, that I'd really like to see a terrestrial version of Vortex.

[Levetty.1279]

What Mesmer needs: 2H brawler melee weapon.

What Mesmer will get: Another dead in the water confusion focused condi weapon.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

On 6/4/2024 at 3:25 PM, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

Hey there my fellow mesmers! 😁

With the new Janthir Wilds revealed, I thought it would be nice with a thread where we can discuss and speculate about our new spear! I'm actually excited for what skills it will have, and what kind of role it will fulfill for mesmer!

I really hope Mirage will benefit of the spear this time, so it doesn't turn into another "Rifle" ugh😅

Let your ideas go wild, I want to read them all! 🤩

Rifle is good not for mirage maybe but rifle makes mesmer one of the best supports now.

That being said, after seeing the video today, I have a feeling that it's going to be a similar ambush type weapon to ranger; possibly melee centric and aimed at the mirage though maybe ranged focused though. Since mesmer is primarily a ranged caster, it being made a ranged weapon would make more sense in the end. After all the primary statement was some would use it for melee, some for range, and some would be a focus for casting.

Edited June 6 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[Gesbo.6420]

What we see in the current video of the specs so far is that every class has a built mechanic with the spear. Guardians get the illumination, necors get the soul shards, rangers get the special ambushes. I really wonder what the special mechanicnof the mesmer spear would be. 

I am also very excited to see what the new phantasm would be to be fair...

Maybe we can get special phantasms on the spear that continue doing their attack until you use another skill or destroyed 🤔

[AshkyLicious.4729]

9 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Rifle is good not for mirage maybe but rifle makes mesmer one of the best supports now.

That being said, after seeing the video today, I have a feeling that it's going to be a similar ambush type weapon to ranger; possibly melee centric and aimed at the mirage though maybe ranged focused though. Since mesmer is primarily a ranged caster, it being made a ranged weapon would make more sense in the end. After all the primary statement was some would use it for melee, some for range, and some would be a focus for casting.

I think Rifle is a great weapon in itself and for the role it fulfills for Mesmer! Anet failed though in implementing it so it works with Mirage and Virtuoso aswell. I'm happy it works great with Chrono and that it actually made Mesmer great as a healer, but if it was a perfectly designed weapon it should've worked with the other e-specs aswell. Mirage could've actually been a decent healer if Anet had tweaked the rifle to fit Mirage aswell.

I just want the spear to fit Mirage cuz Mirage has been the spec for Mesmer that's constantly recieved the short end of the stick since EoD came out. I don't want another weapon to be not compatible with Mirage again, only working for Virtuoso and Chrono.

Edited June 7 by AshkyLicious.4729

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

1 minute ago, AshkyLicious.4729 said:

I think Rifle is a great weapon in itself and for the role it shall fulfill for Mesmer! Anet failed though in implementing it so it works with Mirage and Virtuoso aswell. I'm happy it works great with Chrono and that it actually made Mesmer great as a healer, but if it was a perfectly designed weapon it should've worked with the other e-specs aswell. Mirage could've actually been a decent healer if Anet had tweaked the rifle to fit Mirage aswell.

I just want the spear to fit Mirage cuz Mirage has been the spec for Mesmer that's constantly recieved the short end of the stick since EoD came out. I don't want another weapon to be not compatible with Mirage again, only working for Virtuoso and Chrono.

I mean a laser focused weapon is part of every professions kit. You can try to slam that square peg into the round hole with multiple weapons to make it work, doesn't mean it will do it the way you want to. Rifle was intended as a support weapon. The problem was, for mirage, they didn't give it proper support power to use it with the ambush. It's an incredible healing weapon, but like a vindicator no one cares if you can just heal. Then again I think virtuoso should have been a support since a virtuoso by name is a BARD, not some stealthy stabby stabby person like they have in game now, but ANet seem to have issues pronouncing and using words properly to (like the fact they keep mispronouncing Aether and Aegis.)

If we could go back in time and change things I would have given mirage the bullet mechanic that virtuoso has and made the mirage the high volume DPS build and changed out virtuoso to be support oriented but hindsight is always, you should have done a better job.

[Artyport.2084]

Melee weapon with a dancer like aesthetic 

has a new take on previous skill type (phantasm) 

phantasm dances with you (copies your spear skills) based off how many clones or blades you shatter 
power with boon support

[Geronmy.3298]

11 hours ago, Rezok.2709 said:

If you're gonna call dagger and greatsword good AoE, then we absolutely also have an AoE condi weapon; staff. Two AoE abilities on there and the AA when used with 3 clones hits a lot of enemies.

GS is sort of AoE, but also not really. Phantasms needs enemies to be very stacked to be AoE. Skill 2 bounces to allies, at best it's a cleave - not really much AoE. AA is definitely not AoE, and even if you want to cleave it requires you to target enemies in the back, making it clunky to use for that. That leaves only skill 3 as a good AoE, which I agree it is. But most of GS is simply too reliant on all the enemies having a very specific positioning, and even so it's just cleave. It's just clearly not designed to be AoE - it's just a matter of basically all weapons in GW2 being somewhat multitarget. But compare to for example necro or guardian GS and you'll see how an actual AoE weapon functions.

Dagger is the same. Not an actual AoE weapon. Yes, it hits more than one target (like every weapon in the game), but it's a piercing weapon with a single AoE ability (skill 3).

So overall, I don't actually think we have a proper weapon designed for power AoE. Having multitarget abilities =/= AoE.

Oh yes, staff. the famous aoe weapon that gets worse the more targets are together.

 

Be serious for a minute.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I mean a laser focused weapon is part of every professions kit. You can try to slam that square peg into the round hole with multiple weapons to make it work, doesn't mean it will do it the way you want to. Rifle was intended as a support weapon. The problem was, for mirage, they didn't give it proper support power to use it with the ambush. It's an incredible healing weapon, but like a vindicator no one cares if you can just heal. Then again I think virtuoso should have been a support since a virtuoso by name is a BARD, not some stealthy stabby stabby person like they have in game now, but ANet seem to have issues pronouncing and using words properly to (like the fact they keep mispronouncing Aether and Aegis.)

If we could go back in time and change things I would have given mirage the bullet mechanic that virtuoso has and made the mirage the high volume DPS build and changed out virtuoso to be support oriented but hindsight is always, you should have done a better job.

Yeah, if there was a way to put alacrity on the rifle ambush, heal alac mirage would be a thing. It's almost a thing now, alacrity on rifle would push it over the line.

Virtuoso is fine as it is. The name is a bit weird and does create some false expectations, but that's just a case of being a bad name, not a bad concept.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

20 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, if there was a way to put alacrity on the rifle ambush, heal alac mirage would be a thing. It's almost a thing now, alacrity on rifle would push it over the line.

Virtuoso is fine as it is. The name is a bit weird and does create some false expectations, but that's just a case of being a bad name, not a bad concept.

Which is actually the problem Mirage screams ambusher the DPS, virutoso screams bard. Mechanically Virtuoso blade stocks should probably be on the mirage with the ambush and just give the buffs and supports to Virtuoso and make it more of a bard spec. I mean dagger should have been more of the mirage weapon as well than the ax it got.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

Which is actually the problem Mirage screams ambusher the DPS, virutoso screams bard. Mechanically Virtuoso blade stocks should probably be on the mirage with the ambush and just give the buffs and supports to Virtuoso and make it more of a bard spec. I mean dagger should have been more of the mirage weapon as well than the ax it got.

Well, Mirage IS also capable of being a DPS ambusher, or at least it is when ArenaNet isn't being overcautious with golem numbers. I don't think the blades would be good on mirage - mirage's theme is all about working with illusions, so I don't think replacing the clones with daggers would be a good thing.

On virtuoso - again, the only problem is that it was poorly named. Call it a psiblade or something like that rather than 'virtuoso', and it would be fine. 

[Rezok.2709]

16 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Greatsword can be AoE if playing Mirage, but power mirage still seems to be in the zone where you play it for farming or for fun rather than because it's particularly strong.

I think dagger can qualify, though, at least better than staff or greatsword. The autoattack pierce isn't too hard to hit multiple targets with - and you don't need to aim at a target at the back like with beams. The spread attack can often hit quite a few enemies (albeit probably not with all three blades) and the third skill is a decent AoE and still launches additional blades to hit enemies outside the area.

Still doesn't really compete with the real AoE weapons on other professions, though. And if we're thinking of it being a melee weapon (although with guardian and necro now revealed to be melee, there aren't many professions left who can be using spear as a casting focus, so I'm starting to think it likely will be ranged), axe does reasonably well as a melee condi weapon (or at least it does when mirage is allowed to be good), while sword is fairly defensive-oriented, so there's probably more need for a high-damage power melee weapon than a condi melee weapon. If it's ranged, though... I could see them deciding to make spear a ranged condition weapon and pushing staff more into a support role.

Gotta say, though, that I'd really like to see a terrestrial version of Vortex.

I disagree about the GS Mirage being AoE, simply because it's not really viable DPS. It is a tag build - it's literally in the same category as the thief shortbow lab run build. Not doing any meaningful damage, but tags a lot of enemies. When I said I wanted a power AoE weapon, I mean one that actually deals damage, like for example Reaper GS - not a tag weapon.

Dagger is not AoE. What you're describing is just the fact that all weapons in GW2 are multitarget (as I already mention in my previous reply). You even say it yourself - skill 2 likely won't hit with all blades on multiple targets. And AA being a pierce isn't AoE. From that logic Deadeye rifle is AoE, I assume we can agree that isn't true. Only skill 3 is AoE - having a single AoE skill and some pierce is not an AoE weapon.

If we assign the term AoE to anything that hits more than one target, even if only as a pierce projectile, then every weapon in the game is considered AoE. Then the term becomes useless.

As for your mentioning of axe condi, I won't get into condi - because my original comment was literally that I want a power AoE weapon. That's why I also discarded staff as an option.

[Rezok.2709]

11 hours ago, Geronmy.3298 said:

Oh yes, staff. the famous aoe weapon that gets worse the more targets are together.

 

Be serious for a minute.

It might seem more serious if you don't take that statement completely out of context. I did not say staff was a great AoE weapon. That's on you.

I said, if we are going to call things like dagger or GS AoE, then staff would be in the same category. That's sort of my whole point; none of them are AoE.

But sure, it sounds dumb if you misquote and remove the actual point of my comment.

[draxynnic.3719]

52 minutes ago, Rezok.2709 said:

I disagree about the GS Mirage being AoE, simply because it's not really viable DPS. It is a tag build - it's literally in the same category as the thief shortbow lab run build. Not doing any meaningful damage, but tags a lot of enemies. When I said I wanted a power AoE weapon, I mean one that actually deals damage, like for example Reaper GS - not a tag weapon.

Dagger is not AoE. What you're describing is just the fact that all weapons in GW2 are multitarget (as I already mention in my previous reply). You even say it yourself - skill 2 likely won't hit with all blades on multiple targets. And AA being a pierce isn't AoE. From that logic Deadeye rifle is AoE, I assume we can agree that isn't true. Only skill 3 is AoE - having a single AoE skill and some pierce is not an AoE weapon.

If we assign the term AoE to anything that hits more than one target, even if only as a pierce projectile, then every weapon in the game is considered AoE. Then the term becomes useless.

As for your mentioning of axe condi, I won't get into condi - because my original comment was literally that I want a power AoE weapon. That's why I also discarded staff as an option.

I've been running power mirage in open world, and I wouldn't say it's just a tagging build - it chews through groups of enemies well enough without needing a zerg. Wouldn't be my top choice for fighting a boss, to be sure, but that just demonstrates the point: bosses are generally when you want single-target damage, not AoE.

Your original comment might not have mentioned staff, but you did bring it up later in an attempt to refute someone else's observation. And my observation stands: staff is no more of an AoE weapon than dagger or greatsword (chaos storm on a 25s cooldown does not make an AoE weapon by the standards of most other professions). Now, all three are certainly less AoE than some professions have - mesmer has always been portrayed as more of a single-out-your-target profession than a nuker - but that stands for both power and condi builds. You're criticising greatsword and dagger in support of an AoE weapon having to be power, when the same criticisms can be levelled against the condition weapons.

I am inclined to think that if it's melee, it's probably better to be power since axe exists and is, unlike sword, damage-oriented. Heck, if it counts as blades, maybe it could get cvirts to stop having dagger on both swaps. If it's ranged, though, I'd lean towards being condi. We can argue over greatsword, dagger, and staff, but nobody sane is likely to claim that sceptre is an AoE weapon.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

As long as it's melee, I don't care. Anet really kitten the bed when they made the Greatsword a ranged weapon. Don't get me wrong, I do like the greatsword, but 12 years into the game and the mesmer still only has 2 melee weapons, only of them only really being useful inside its own spec. So as long as it's melee, we benefit. Hopefully something with PBAoEs since both the sword and axe are very single target.

[Teknomancer.4895]

Part of the AoE problem might be ANet sticking too literally to the class description:

Quote

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon.

"Duelist" implies 1-v-1 combat, and if they refuse to deviate from that aside from the occasional one-off AoE skill, we're kinda stuck with it. 🙁

They seem to be leaning into this spear having different modes/roles though, so maybe we'll get some cleaving and/or AoE on some flip skills?

We'll find out in the next week or two, for better or worse.

 

PS Like many of you I really hope we get a good skillset for Mirage; I mean it's the Elona eSpec, and the spear was a Paragon thing, so thematically at least it fits. Chrono got the rifle and it's fine, but if new weapons are going to be oriented toward specific eSpecs, then spear really should fit Mirage best.

Edited June 7 by Teknomancer.4895
PS

[draxynnic.3719]

Yeah, it'd be ironic if spear ends up being what brings mirage back into the meta, but I'd take it if it does...

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

It continues to fascinate me all the people wanting a largely ranged class to get a melee weapon though. Mesmer isn't exactly that sturdy in melee either so it's really a baffling ask if I were to be honest.

[draxynnic.3719]

1 minute ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

It continues to fascinate me all the people wanting a largely ranged class to get a melee weapon though. Mesmer isn't exactly that sturdy in melee either so it's really a baffling ask if I were to be honest.

It's because it's a largely ranged class. Mesmer is sturdy enough, played well - it doesn't have the self-recovery capacity of elementalists, but it also doesn't have the tiny health pool, and it has enough active defences to be able to survive in melee. Unlike many other professions, though, mesmer is at a point where it probably has enough ranged options (at least for the time being), but having only two melee options, one of which is primarily defensive, is coming up a bit short in that department. It's also not a profession which inherently feels like it should be the most ranged-oriented profession in the game - one of the very earliest pieces of mesmer art for GW1 was a mesmer lady with a rapier, for instance.

There's also a degree to which the resentment among players of other professions to virtuoso having easy ranged damage and dominating the meta seems to be building up the way it did for riflemech and firebrand before it, so having a melee option to fall back on if virtuoso gets the duck nerfed out of it would probably be a good thing.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Just now, draxynnic.3719 said:

It's because it's a largely ranged class. Mesmer is sturdy enough, played well - it doesn't have the self-recovery capacity of elementalists, but it also doesn't have the tiny health pool, and it has enough active defences to be able to survive in melee. Unlike many other professions, though, mesmer is at a point where it probably has enough ranged options (at least for the time being), but having only two melee options, one of which is primarily defensive, is coming up a bit short in that department. It's also not a profession which inherently feels like it should be the most ranged-oriented profession in the game - one of the very earliest pieces of mesmer art for GW1 was a mesmer lady with a rapier, for instance.

There's also a degree to which the resentment among players of other professions to virtuoso having easy ranged damage and dominating the meta seems to be building up the way it did for riflemech and firebrand before it, so having a melee option to fall back on if virtuoso gets the duck nerfed out of it would probably be a good thing.

I will largely disagree. That's what the illusions are for, to distract and keep things away from the mesmer. Fighting in close quarters is actually largely against the mesmer but even played well the mesmer is a quite a lot squishier than most others in a similar situation. The only one that is a bit more defensive is the mirage in this instance since using their dodge is part of their rotation for damage. Though their stamina recovery is no where near a vindicators.

[Mevelios.4809]

2 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

It continues to fascinate me all the people wanting a largely ranged class to get a melee weapon though. Mesmer isn't exactly that sturdy in melee either so it's really a baffling ask if I were to be honest.

Those melee weapons involve dodges (blurred frenzy from sword, axes of symmetry from axe); elementalists are squishier than mesmer and use swords too, while their daggers are on a very short range - don't find it that much of an issue, even moreso if land spear has evade frames like the underwater one! 😋

That was kinda what I had in mind talking earlier about skills' aesthetics, like a yanyuedao wielder which would need ample movements to slice (since it isn't exactly a stabbing weapon), those movements justifying with mesmer shenanigans why it'd have evade frames.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Just now, Mevelios.4809 said:

Those melee weapons involve dodges (blurred frenzy from sword, axes of symmetry from axe); elementalists are squishier than mesmer and use swords too, while their daggers are on a very short range - don't find it that much of an issue, even moreso if land spear has evade frames like the underwater one! 😋

That was kinda what I had in mind talking earlier about skills' aesthetics, like a yanyuedao wielder which would need ample movements to slice (since it isn't exactly a stabbing weapon), those movements justifying with mesmer shenanigans why it'd have evade frames.

I found elementalist quite a lot sturdier than mesmer and I prefer mesmer over elementalist.

[draxynnic.3719]

7 minutes ago, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

I will largely disagree. That's what the illusions are for, to distract and keep things away from the mesmer. Fighting in close quarters is actually largely against the mesmer but even played well the mesmer is a quite a lot squishier than most others in a similar situation. The only one that is a bit more defensive is the mirage in this instance since using their dodge is part of their rotation for damage. Though their stamina recovery is no where near a vindicators.

I disagree with your disagreement, although like in many things it depends on your build. Distortion is an expensive but very powerful defensive skill, mesmer generally has good self-healing, and non-virtuoso shatters have their strongest effect in melee range. Chronomancer was designed for melee, albeit not forced into it the way tempest is - shield, while it wouldn't be combined with spear directly, is a strong defensive option, Well of Precognition gives a lot of Aegis, and while Well of Senility no longer rewards being inside it alongside your enemies, Well of Action does. Mirage has been discussed, and while it can't continuously dodge as well as it used to, they can absolutely chain a fair few in sequence when you take into account that not all of their mirage mantles cost endurance. Virtuoso is largely built around range, to be fair - while Bladeturn Requiem exists, the damage scaling isn't really there unless you have blades to spare and nothing else to spend them on.

But the main thing really is that mesmer already has good ranged options. Dagger is meta. Greatsword is meta for power. There's a meta condi chrono build now that uses staff and sceptre. Rifle offers ranged support. Mesmer shares with thief the title of having the most ranged options as it is. But what it's lacking is choice in melee weapons, particularly considering that the power melee weapon (sword) is more defensive- than offensively-oriented. Range is covered... at least for now. One melee weapon won't change mesmer from being one of the most ranged-oriented professions in the game, but it does provide another option for those that DO want to go melee.