Damage is too high in spvp (unfun)

[Lazer Candy.2837]

Hi everyone! 
I want to start by saying I'm a 2.1k player in WoW 2v2 and RBGs to add some credit to my opinion; that is, I'm not a newb when it comes to pvp in general. I've come back to this game over and over throughout the years and spvp feels like it is in the worst state I've ever seen it in. Burst damage is so high you can die within a second (lookin at you willbenders), but  damage in general is very high. PvP in my opinion is most fun when it isn't burst or be burst, but rather working out defensives from the opponent and then catching them when they've made mistakes. The current damage is so high it doesn't seem like you even want to bring a support. Just run 5 high burst classes and burst them down before they can burst you down. Anyway, that's my two cents. I'd really like to see damage across the board turned down by like 15-20%. 

[Myror.7521]

Actually i prefer a burst meta over a tank meta all days. Cause on last one you can litterly fall asleep while playing xp

This been said. Some skills indeed need some number nerfs ^^ there should be only some burst dmg per weaponset and not as it is currently the case multiple one ^~^

Edited June 11 by Myror.7521

[Mythras.2091]

Dude if you bring down damage, noone will play burst and everyone would play tank or supp... actually bringing world peace as noone would die 😛

[arazoth.7290]

If power damage gets lowered all around a lot, you will see condi meta.

Supports are still valuable atm imo

[lotus.5672]

idk what game you are playing but every match im in theres at least 2 condi reapers on each team

[Sahne.6950]

I am a lvl 80 Magic Templar in ESO, i have gold in all 200ccm cups in mario kart, And i am the absolute fastest driver in my living room when it comes to Gran Turismo ( to add some credit to my opinion) , and i have to say OP is right.

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, lotus.5672 said:

idk what game you are playing but every match im in theres at least 2 condi reapers on each team

It would be more if power damage gets fot everyone tuned down. A full condi meta on both teams, nobody wants 😂.

Atm it's close to 50/50 between power and condi almost, which is fine 

[Hotride.2187]

7 hours ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

I'd really like to see damage across the board turned down by like 15-20%. 

Lets not go with mass changes we will all regret (all over again).

[Kuya.6495]

If I had a nickel for everytime a WoW player boasted their accomplishments in WoW before making a fool of themselves in GW2 spvp and raids I'd be filthy rich by now. 

Edited June 11 by Kuya.6495

[ccccc.4963]

12 hours ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

I'm a 2.1k player in WoW 2v2 and RBGs to add some credit to my opinion

This is really bad btw

[StefanB.4928]

12 hours ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

I'm a 2.1k player in WoW 2v2 and RBGs to add some credit to my opinion

I have 3.2 exp in RBGS and multiseason and multiclass 2.7+ arena player so my oppinion > yours.  

Youre wrong.

GW2 is about positioning first and foremost.  Get to spots where ppl cant port to if you expect to get jumped. Learn the jumping puzzles/kiting routes of each map.  Learn to read opponents and reset when needed.  

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

-what kuya said-

Golden post

lowering damage is not the shortcut to learning how to play the game. you're dying instantly because people who learned how to play the game are deleting you because they can sniff out you don't know how to press your buttons. 

If you learn how to press your buttons,  you won't die instantly, even if both you and your opponent are glass.

WoW skills are non transferrable here. This is a fighting game. 

Quote

GW2 is about positioning first and foremost.  Get to spots where ppl cant port to if you expect to get jumped. Learn the jumping puzzles/kiting routes of each map.  Learn to read opponents and reset when needed.  

Bro's right ~

Edited June 11 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lazer Candy.2837]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Golden post

lowering damage is not the shortcut to learning how to play the game. you're dying instantly because people who learned how to play the game are deleting you because they can sniff out you don't know how to press your buttons. 

If you learn how to press your buttons,  you won't die instantly, even if both you and your opponent are glass.

WoW skills are non transferrable here. This is a fighting game. 

Bro's right ~

Y'all wonder why spvp has been dying XD Match making is putting me as a gold player at 1200ish against 1700 players because nobody plays spvp and damage is so bursty you can die within one second to someone teleporting on your face. The two are not healthy for game longevity because new players will experience this and just go, "no thanks." 

Edited June 11 by Lazer Candy.2837
edit for clarity

[Lazer Candy.2837]

14 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

I am a lvl 80 Magic Templar in ESO, i have gold in all 200ccm cups in mario kart, And i am the absolute fastest driver in my living room when it comes to Gran Turismo ( to add some credit to my opinion) , and i have to say OP is right.

This is a pretty toxic reply. I added that to show I'm not a newb to pvp because we all know as soon as someone makes a suggestion people reply with, " lol omg newb I bet you've never pvp'd in your life noob git gud!!" So for some context, I am a skilled pvper in some regard. I've pvped in various games for the better part of my life and here's my opinion. Your comment is pretty much the other end of the spectrum. If someone makes a suggestion and adds in some context, you get this reply. If you'd like to be constructive, please, I'm all eyes (and ears). Otherwise, don't be toxic.

[Lazer Candy.2837]

6 hours ago, ccccc.4963 said:

This is really bad btw

It's not, though. It's top 10% of players that season. So while not the best, it's 90th percentile.

Miss me.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

1 hour ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

Y'all wonder why spvp has been dying XD Match making is putting me as a gold player at 1200ish against 1700 players because nobody plays spvp and damage is so bursty you can die within one second to someone teleporting on your face. The two are not healthy for game longevity because new players will experience this and just go, "no thanks." 

I think experienced PvP players don't consider this point. Any game mode's longevity is dependent on how many new players are joining AND staying each month.

[Burnfall.9573]

Damage is indeed high and will only worsen, with History repeating itself over again as proof

Warrior Profession-Gunflame has returned (PvP version)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxWxkm0ZjS0

 

(WvW version) coming soon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwNkE-6Iyd0

 

Edited June 12 by Burnfall.9573

[Sweetbread.3678]

29 minutes ago, Mistwraithe.3106 said:

I think experienced PvP players don't consider this point. Any game mode's longevity is dependent on how many new players are joining AND staying each month.

I'd say they're probably aware, at least on some level. The issue is that actually balancing the game and reworking all of the borked kitten that drove everyone away in the first place would be antithetical to what the remaining pvp "community" wants out of the game. They do not want a well designed pvp game, because a well designed pvp game wouldn't be full of terribly designed mechanics and laughably busted, low-skill meta builds to crutch. These people aren't here depsite of the plethora of low-skill 100-0 bursts, the quite possibly worst designed stealth mechanic in gaming history, or the absurd mobility creep; these people are here because of it.

[Sereath.1428]

You can thank Conquest for that.
Anything other than the current "balance", where almost nothing but active defences and terrain matter, is always considered unhealthy for the circles game mode.
You think this is an MMO or something? No, this is a pseudo e-sports fighting game.

[Shagie.7612]

They've done a large flat nerf like that before and it was... really awful, quite frankly.

Not trying to be rude here or anything, but I don't think damage overall is a problem. I think things like mobility, boon uptime, and generally the ability to get away with making bad/foolish plays is.

There are absolutely some builds that need damage nerfs, there's quite a few that will abuse an inexperienced player with very little feedback for them to understand what happened, but there's a very strong chance that if you're dying THAT quickly, you've screwed up pretty massively somewhere.

WoW's combat is, by design, relatively slow thanks to the GCD (though certainly there's been seasons in the last expac or two that have been insanely bursty so you should at least be aware of how fast mmo pvp can be), GW2 doesn't have that.

The learning curve and inexperience here is what's causing you problems, and people don't want the combat slowed down because the high pace, action combat that thrives on properly avoiding damage is what actually makes this game's PvP fun. That's why everyone's acting the way they are.

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 hours ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

Y'all wonder why spvp has been dying XD Match making is putting me as a gold player at 1200ish against 1700 players because nobody plays spvp and damage is so bursty you can die within one second to someone teleporting on your face. The two are not healthy for game longevity because new players will experience this and just go, "no thanks." 

We did a blanket damage nerf twice, that removed a ton of damaging skills out of the game. I was here for both of them, and both times the playerbase shrank because it made the matchups snoozefests for the people that were remotely invested.

22 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

They've done a large flat nerf like that before and it was... really awful, quite frankly

 I'd like to not do it a third time.

Quote

The learning curve and inexperience here is what's causing you problems, and people don't want the combat slowed down because the high pace, action combat that thrives on properly avoiding damage is what actually makes this game's PvP fun. That's why everyone's acting the way they are.

Spot on.

It's like asking for a fighting game or FPS to be slowed down because you're not familiar with all of the tech yet.

That being said:

Quote

Match making is putting me as a gold player at 1200ish against 1700 players because nobody plays spvp

This is a problem, but it's more complicated than "nobody plays pvp". Nobody plays ranked (for a number of different reasons Anet can address whenever they want), and of the people that play ranked the plat division is miniscule. eventually gold players will be handed the plat people queueing. 

This definitely needs addressing. That being said can we not blanket nerf the entire game mode (again) in an effort to compel people that likely don't like competition period? This is better attacked with events. 
 

Edited June 12 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Lazer Candy.2837]

39 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

They've done a large flat nerf like that before and it was... really awful, quite frankly.

Not trying to be rude here or anything, but I don't think damage overall is a problem. I think things like mobility, boon uptime, and generally the ability to get away with making bad/foolish plays is.

There are absolutely some builds that need damage nerfs, there's quite a few that will abuse an inexperienced player with very little feedback for them to understand what happened, but there's a very strong chance that if you're dying THAT quickly, you've screwed up pretty massively somewhere.

WoW's combat is, by design, relatively slow thanks to the GCD (though certainly there's been seasons in the last expac or two that have been insanely bursty so you should at least be aware of how fast mmo pvp can be), GW2 doesn't have that.

The learning curve and inexperience here is what's causing you problems, and people don't want the combat slowed down because the high pace, action combat that thrives on properly avoiding damage is what actually makes this game's PvP fun. That's why everyone's acting the way they are.

 

Boon uptime and uptime in general from higher mobility leads to more damage. However you wanna slice it, it's high damage. Cutting boons down or cutting mobility down would still reduce damage, which is what I'm advocating for and would be happy with.

Yes, I've played the bursty seasons of WoW and dislike those as well. I dislike them for the same reasons. While I can still play at a high rank, I don't think it's healthy for MMO combat to require the reflexes of a twitch shooter to not die in 2 seconds.

I am being somewhat hyperbolic here. The main culprits are rangers, thieves, and willbenders (mainly willbenders). But that doesn't really matter if it's two classes or one. Nobody should be that bursty.

I realize the game has a sharp learning curve, but that's also why I made the post. It's not healthy for the game to be in such a state as I don't think new players will stick around 😕

Edited June 12 by Lazer Candy.2837
forgot thieves

[Lazer Candy.2837]

15 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

We did a blanket damage nerf twice, that removed a ton of damaging skills out of the game. I was here for both of them, and both times the playerbase shrank because it made the matchups snoozefests for the people that were remotely invested.

 I'd like to not do it a third time.

Spot on.

It's like asking for a fighting game or FPS to be slowed down because you're not familiar with all of the tech yet.

That being said:

This is a problem, but it's more complicated than "nobody plays pvp". Nobody plays ranked (for a number of different reasons Anet can address whenever they want), and of the people that play ranked the plat division is miniscule. eventually gold players will be handed the plat people queueing. 

This definitely needs addressing. That being said can we not blanket nerf the entire game mode (again) in an effort to compel people that likely don't like competition period? This is better attacked with events. 
 

What are those reasons that nobody plays ranked?

[Shagie.7612]

2 minutes ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

However you wanna slice it, it's high damage.

It's not the might that's the problem, though. It's things like blocks/evades/blinds, perma prot/reso, incredible self sustain on DPS builds, the ability to always have a button to save yourself even after overextending, never having to care about condi, etc.

And no, if your main complaint is getting bursted, mobility doesn't change that. Nor do any of the above boons. It just makes it easier for the guy to get you, but that's an entirely separate problem from damage being too high. If you're mad that you die in 2 seconds, whether the guy reaches you every minute or 30 seconds won't change that. Mobility is a problem, but the solution to that isn't to reduce damage. It's to address the increase of it that's happened, largely since EoD dropped.

Willbender has pretty terrible tracking. You can quite literally W key away from them and avoid large amounts of their damage.

Why not start off with what you're playing, what generally gives you trouble (I know you said Willy, but if you're getting bursted by one it means you're missing the dodge on multiple skills and eating a full whirling light), maybe post some gameplay clips of moments you think represent your complaints to see what you can do better.

It's the same here as in WoW, people are actually really nice to inexperienced players if you genuinely ask for help and understanding. Otherwise, when you're the equivalent of sub-gladiator and make complaints you'll get clowned on. I don't think that's the nicest thing for people to do but it's pretty normal for competitive games lol.

13 minutes ago, Lazer Candy.2837 said:

It's not healthy for the game to be in such a state as I don't think new players will stick around 😕

People aren't going to stick around for the same reason they don't stick around in WoW. Because MMO PvP is an incredibly small niche in a stagnant genre. It isn't popular and has never been popular. Even when they were at their biggest, it was still a small percentage of active players. It's not 2005 anymore, where the entire audience came from WC3 and enjoyed competitive games.
The people who play MMOs by and large are not and will never be interested in PvP no matter how good or bad it is, and people interested in serious PvP go to a game purpose built for them, like a shooter, battle royale, moba, or fighting game.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't make changes or anything, but PvP in MMOs exists as a very niche product and trying to redesign it to try and snare an audience that doesn't exist by sacrificing why your already existing playerbase likes it is a silly move.

[Lazer Candy.2837]

3 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

It's not the might that's the problem, though. It's things like blocks/evades/blinds, perma prot/reso, incredible self sustain on DPS builds, the ability to always have a button to save yourself even after overextending, never having to care about condi, etc.

And no, if your main complaint is getting bursted, mobility doesn't change that. Nor do any of the above boons. It just makes it easier for the guy to get you, but that's an entirely separate problem from damage being too high. If you're mad that you die in 2 seconds, whether the guy reaches you every minute or 30 seconds won't change that. Mobility is a problem, but the solution to that isn't to reduce damage. It's to address the increase of it that's happened, largely since EoD dropped.

Willbender has pretty terrible tracking. You can quite literally W key away from them and avoid large amounts of their damage.

Why not start off with what you're playing, what generally gives you trouble (I know you said Willy, but if you're getting bursted by one it means you're missing the dodge on multiple skills and eating a full whirling light), maybe post some gameplay clips of moments you think represent your complaints to see what you can do better.

It's the same here as in WoW, people are actually really nice to inexperienced players if you genuinely ask for help and understanding. Otherwise, when you're the equivalent of sub-gladiator and make complaints you'll get clowned on. I don't think that's the nicest thing for people to do but it's pretty normal for competitive games lol.

People aren't going to stick around for the same reason they don't stick around in WoW. Because MMO PvP is an incredibly small niche in a stagnant genre. It isn't popular and has never been popular. Even when they were at their biggest, it was still a small percentage of active players. It's not 2005 anymore, where the entire audience came from WC3 and enjoyed competitive games.
The people who play MMOs by and large are not and will never be interested in PvP no matter how good or bad it is, and people interested in serious PvP go to a game purpose built for them, like a shooter, battle royale, moba, or fighting game.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't make changes or anything, but PvP in MMOs exists as a very niche product and trying to redesign it to try and snare an audience that doesn't exist by sacrificing why your already existing playerbase likes it is a silly move.

So you're advocating for everything to be more glass to fix the burst problem?