This new system is absolutely trash....fights are one sided

[Cyninja.2954]

13 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

https://gw2mists.com/matches/eu

https://gw2mists.com/matches/na

Views on both seem updated.

I'll be honest, even as a strong supporter of the new system, that is not a good look for K/D disparities.

It's about as bad as regular K/D disparity in the past and that should not be the case if the distribution algorithm was done properly.

Now will this improve over time as worlds move up and down, sure. Still that's some heavy dominant servers on each tier.

On the upside: activity seems well spread between all tiers for now.

Edited June 16 by Cyninja.2954

[T G.7496]

I'm on Mirror of Lyssa, in probably one of the larger alliance guild initiatives, and it is absolutely true that MoL is completely dominating.

We're not happy about it either, it'd be a lot more fun if there was more challenging content.

But, and it's a big but, this is not a disparity in simply numbers. There might be a numbers disparity, and perhaps also a coverage one. However, there is also a big playstyle disparity.

Blue team - we are red - blue team seem to actively avoid PvP. We watched a full blue reset blob disengage from the lord in green keep and deliberately manoeuvre to port away when we arrived to play with them. This continued all night, and since, and if they do fight, or are forced to do so, they're really not up to it - sorry to say so, I'm not a very good player either.

Hopefully, as the weeks pass, these week 1 disparities - of all kinds - will diminish as teams find their place in the tiers.

Relinks were always a bit like this, and for obvious reasons. I imagine WR relinks will continue this inevitable week 1 chaos, and it is probably likely to remain a more pronounced consequence of the process. 

[Gud.6829]

They have built a system that actively undermines any sense of progress for the average player.  no one wants to get involved in a system that feels like it was built to exclude them.  hire  a real user experience designer you fools

[shrew.3059]

10 minutes ago, T G.7496 said:

Blue team - we are red - blue team seem to actively avoid PvP. We watched a full blue reset blob disengage from the lord in green keep and deliberately manoeuvre to port away when we arrived to play with them. This continued all night, and since, and if they do fight, or are forced to do so, they're really not up to it - sorry to say so, I'm not a very good player either.

I might have been there for this—I was green—and we were surprised there wasn’t a red-blue collision. A three way fight would have been more interesting than what we got.

I think the problem is two-fold.

First, smaller groups, organised or not, would be foolish to run into a giant, organised boon ball; they won’t win, and even picking off the tail probably won’t make a meaningful difference when the ball is that big. So they run and focus on smaller objectives. Whenever these small groups see a large group of players, they become conditioned to run because they’ve been trampled enough to know they can’t win. This doesn’t create engaging content for anyone.

Second, newer or lesser skilled players can’t learn from these encounters because they are over too quickly. It isn’t just the skill disparity, it’s the length of the encounter and the feedback you get. If you were a newer player and engaged at the fringes and then suddenly your boons are stripped and you’re pulled and dead in a second, what are you going to learn? To not engage. In PvP you react to a limited number of players and have enough time to react and learn what buttons help you and what buttons don’t; you can’t learn anything useful from being run over by an organised boon ball, the combat log is just a list of all the skills in the game.

It’s not clear to me whether this is a WvW boon ball problem or a WR matchmaking problem, or a sad convergence of both. Maybe things will level out, but for the moment, I can imagine a lot of people being justifiably frustrated.

[Gud.6829]

14 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

It’s not clear to me whether this is a WvW boon ball problem or a WR matchmaking problem

it's an idiots idea of success problem.  The idiots that designed this are seeing two theoretically equal groups and calling it good matchmaking.  Decisions like this are why engineers should never be allowed to make meaningful decisions on gameplay.  

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

It's about as bad as regular K/D disparity in the past and that should not be the case if the distribution algorithm was done properly.

Did they say, they are going to balance teams arround anything else but average play hours? Because to my knowledge that is the only factor that is taken into consideration when creating teams, so ofc k/d ratios doesn't change. How would they even try to balance those, when there's some 50 player boon balls just there for the farm, pardon, ofc i mean "fight", and lot's of smaller and/or less organised grps and randoms that will feed them kills for hours, just because the boon ball happens to run circles in on of their lord rooms?

Also moving tiers up and down isn't going to balance k/d, because k/d isn't what wins matches and most of the time the side with the weaker boon ball just takes a break when matched against a more dominating one, so k/d ratios for teams vary heavily depending on the matchup.

Generally the extreme onesided k/d rations aren't even a result of "team balance", more a result of skill balance/design, that created these unkillable "farm balls" that nobody wants to actually "fight", inculding themselves, so farming randoms is what they do and ofc that's going to produce very onesided results. So they only way to create more balanced k/d rations is to make these farm balls less fail proof - and we all know anet isn't going to turn 180° out of a sudden - they will steadily continue to head the very same direction - so expect that it gets worse ...

Edited June 16 by Zyreva.1078

[Burial.1958]

1 hour ago, shrew.3059 said:

I might have been there for this—I was green—and we were surprised there wasn’t a red-blue collision. A three way fight would have been more interesting than what we got.

I think the problem is two-fold.

First, smaller groups, organised or not, would be foolish to run into a giant, organised boon ball; they won’t win, and even picking off the tail probably won’t make a meaningful difference when the ball is that big. So they run and focus on smaller objectives. Whenever these small groups see a large group of players, they become conditioned to run because they’ve been trampled enough to know they can’t win. This doesn’t create engaging content for anyone.

Second, newer or lesser skilled players can’t learn from these encounters because they are over too quickly. It isn’t just the skill disparity, it’s the length of the encounter and the feedback you get. If you were a newer player and engaged at the fringes and then suddenly your boons are stripped and you’re pulled and dead in a second, what are you going to learn? To not engage. In PvP you react to a limited number of players and have enough time to react and learn what buttons help you and what buttons don’t; you can’t learn anything useful from being run over by an organised boon ball, the combat log is just a list of all the skills in the game.

It’s not clear to me whether this is a WvW boon ball problem or a WR matchmaking problem, or a sad convergence of both. Maybe things will level out, but for the moment, I can imagine a lot of people being justifiably frustrated.

Its both.

Our Team Frost Citadel has way lesser peoples than Red. I was yesterday there from 8:00 and we had like some few peoples max 10 on all map. Red was steamrolling with blob since then towards to 01:00.  On several BL's i had also for hours outnumbered buff.

ofc also these Boonballs are a Problem. We have now a Meta where you can't do anything against it, only to form a big blob yourself but when you do not have the peoples for even forming a 30 peoples Zerg i mean then u can't do anything.

Sure maybe next week better because we also fight a lesser pop team instead of Mirror of Lyssa. But then we have the problem that you find no content outside of Primetime. WR was meant to be fixing it but as now it is even more worse than before.

Edited June 16 by Burial.1958

[shrew.3059]

41 minutes ago, Gud.6829 said:

it's an idiots idea of success problem.  The idiots that designed this are seeing two theoretically equal groups and calling it good matchmaking.  Decisions like this are why engineers should never be allowed to make meaningful decisions on gameplay.  

Not to disagree with the underlying point but… are they seeing two theoretically equal groups? The numbers don’t seem to indicate that.

I don’t envy the developers who have to determine the key metrics for matchmaking, but that is really important to this system working. Outside of skirmish wins, how do you pair teams against each other in a way that rewards success and generates challenge?

[shrew.3059]

2 minutes ago, Burial.1958 said:

Its both.

Our Team Frost Citadel has way lesser peoples than Red. I was yesterday there from 8:00 and we had like some few peoples max 10 on all map. Red was steamrolling with blob since then towards to 01:00.  On several BL's i had also for hours outnumbered buff.

ofc also these Boonballs are a Problem. We have now a Meta where you can't do anything against it, only to form a big blob yourself but when you do not have the peoples for even forming a 30 peoples Zerg i mean then u can't do anything.

I feel for my fellow Frosties, since it’s no fun to have zero options to play smart with the tools you have. Not to discount the skill and coordination of the MoL players at all, but boon ball vs roamers/havoc was never going to end well for either.

For the little fish, the smart move is to avoid the stampede and take small victories where you can, but then that’s no fun for the boon ball since they never get content either. At that point it’s just PvE with a “run away” mechanic when you see a red blob, or “catch and release” objectives for the dominant team.

[Kishijooten.5817]

1 hour ago, T G.7496 said:

I'm on Mirror of Lyssa, in probably one of the larger alliance guild initiatives, and it is absolutely true that MoL is completely dominating.

We're not happy about it either, it'd be a lot more fun if there was more challenging content.

But, and it's a big but, this is not a disparity in simply numbers. There might be a numbers disparity, and perhaps also a coverage one. However, there is also a big playstyle disparity.

Blue team - we are red - blue team seem to actively avoid PvP. We watched a full blue reset blob disengage from the lord in green keep and deliberately manoeuvre to port away when we arrived to play with them. This continued all night, and since, and if they do fight, or are forced to do so, they're really not up to it - sorry to say so, I'm not a very good player either.

Hopefully, as the weeks pass, these week 1 disparities - of all kinds - will diminish as teams find their place in the tiers.

Relinks were always a bit like this, and for obvious reasons. I imagine WR relinks will continue this inevitable week 1 chaos, and it is probably likely to remain a more pronounced consequence of the process. 

I'm on blue team. We got a perma red blob  vs a few disorganized blue players. What are we supposed to do ? I'm sorry you feel disapointed but we cannot fight you. I wish we could but we can't. 

Less than 48 hours and I really miss my Jade Sea mates... 😥

 

[omgnoob.7860]

Mosswood. Mithric Cliffs. Dwaynas Temple. we have MAYBE 15 people across all 4 maps. blue and green have been running fat on all maps.how is this balanced?oh wait its anet playing favorites again. nothing changed.

[T G.7496]

27 minutes ago, Kishijooten.5817 said:

I'm on blue team. We got a perma red blob  vs a few disorganized blue players. What are we supposed to do ? I'm sorry you feel disapointed but we cannot fight you. I wish we could but we can't. 

Less than 48 hours and I really miss my Jade Sea mates... 😥

 

Understood. I'm sorry to hear that.

I was referring very specifically to the reset behaviour of whomever was tagging for blue. They had a blob, it looked like a full squad. They'd opened green garri and were working on the lord. We were like, yay, content. They were like, nope, port. Different playstyle, nothing to do with numbers or balance, at that moment and for the remainder of the night.

Since then, several blue groups have put up a fight for things, and I acknowledge that it's been rough on them - not that we've always had full squads, but that on average our players seem more capable. But yes, MoL seems to have all the advantage cards in the Tier 6 match; overall numbers, perhaps better coverage, better organisation, arguably better calibre players.

Hopefully, from next week, the Tiers can begin sorting themselves out a bit, and perhaps balance will begin to improve for everyone. Fingers crossed.

Good luck!

❤️

[shrew.3059]

3 minutes ago, T G.7496 said:

Understood. I'm sorry to hear that.

I was referring very specifically to the reset behaviour of whomever was tagging for blue. They had a blob, it looked like a full squad. They'd opened green garri and were working on the lord. We were like, yay, content. They were like, nope, port. Different playstyle, nothing to do with numbers or balance, at that moment and for the remainder of the night.

Since then, several blue groups have put up a fight for things, and I acknowledge that it's been rough on them - not that we've always had full squads, but that on average our players seem more capable. But yes, MoL seems to have all the advantage cards in the Tier 6 match; overall numbers, perhaps better coverage, better organisation, arguably better calibre players.

Hopefully, from next week, the Tiers can begin sorting themselves out a bit, and perhaps balance will begin to improve for everyone. Fingers crossed.

Good luck!

❤️

It’s a bind for MoL too because they can’t avoid being better organised and playing their best just to encourage more competition, but at the same time, they’ll never get that competition by (inadvertently) teaching their opponents that standing to fight is pointless.

It seems impossible to properly calibrate for player quality (as you put it) because there are different WvW “modes” being played; a strong 1v1er can’t stand up to a boon ball, a strong roamer can’t stand up to a boon ball, and it’s irrelevant whether an individual member of a boon ball could hold their own 1v1 or roaming because this doesn’t need to happen for them. Boon balling is a skill, but it’s not 100% transferable to the other “modes” of WvW, so the only thing that matters is who wins, and that’s always a numbers organisation game.

No reasonable player wants to punish players and guilds for trying hard and being good, but I think there needs to be an acknowledgement that the current system might not encourage players to get better or get organised if they get stomped for trying. Maybe this will even out with time, but the question is who will be left?

[Kishijooten.5817]

13 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

It’s a bind for MoL too because they can’t avoid being better organised and playing their best just to encourage more competition, but at the same time, they’ll never get that competition by (inadvertently) teaching their opponents that standing to fight is pointless.

It seems impossible to properly calibrate for player quality (as you put it) because there are different WvW “modes” being played; a strong 1v1er can’t stand up to a boon ball, a strong roamer can’t stand up to a boon ball, and it’s irrelevant whether an individual member of a boon ball could hold their own 1v1 or roaming because this doesn’t need to happen for them. Boon balling is a skill, but it’s not 100% transferable to the other “modes” of WvW, so the only thing that matters is who wins, and that’s always a numbers organisation game.

No reasonable player wants to punish players and guilds for trying hard and being good, but I think there needs to be an acknowledgement that the current system might not encourage players to get better or get organised if they get stomped for trying. Maybe this will even out with time, but the question is who will be left?

I'm not a top player but i 'm a bit experienced(rank 3306). I really like roaming but since thursday, I just can't. I really love WvW but I feel discouraged. Being killed by a full red MOL red zerg while I'm alone, and they still flame me when I'm dead. Is this fair competitive game ?

What about new players trying WvW ? Yes, we'll see who will be left... 

Edited June 16 by Kishijooten.5817

[T G.7496]

14 minutes ago, shrew.3059 said:

It’s a bind for MoL too because they can’t avoid being better organised and playing their best just to encourage more competition, but at the same time, they’ll never get that competition by (inadvertently) teaching their opponents that standing to fight is pointless.

It seems impossible to properly calibrate for player quality (as you put it) because there are different WvW “modes” being played; a strong 1v1er can’t stand up to a boon ball, a strong roamer can’t stand up to a boon ball, and it’s irrelevant whether an individual member of a boon ball could hold their own 1v1 or roaming because this doesn’t need to happen for them. Boon balling is a skill, but it’s not 100% transferable to the other “modes” of WvW, so the only thing that matters is who wins, and that’s always a numbers organisation game.

No reasonable player wants to punish players and guilds for trying hard and being good, but I think there needs to be an acknowledgement that the current system might not encourage players to get better or get organised if they get stomped for trying. Maybe this will even out with time, but the question is who will be left?

Understood. Good points.

But the boonball vs. 'other modes' issue of balancing WvW is a more general issue we're all experiencing atm.

Maybe the new process of WR is going to exacerbate this issue for the foreseeable future, particularly in the first week or two of each relink. But maybe this will also shine a harder light on the problem and perhaps Anet will finally begin to do something about it.

I'm not holding my breath.

Much as I was looking forward to WR - I had grown almost contemptuous of the old system, in its familiar staleness - I'm always reluctant to go in to bat for Anet. Their performance over the last few years has created a great cynicism in me about their understand of and ability to fix and improve their own game.

But I think we're all stuck with WR now. I'm ok with that, because I was craving the shake-up and I was preparing for it and looking forward to it. No doubt the novelty will wear off quickly, even for people like me, and then we'll have to see if they can manage the WR mechanics well enough to sustain peoples' loyalty to and enjoyment of the game.

At least server-stacking and bandwaggoning is dead now. But this new system will still favour those who are more willing to organise with others. Arguably, that's what this mode is all about, after all - but I'm aware people play this mode in different ways. I hope they can all still find a way to enjoy it.

Edited June 16 by T G.7496

[shrew.3059]

13 minutes ago, T G.7496 said:

But the boonball vs. 'other modes' issue of balancing WvW is a more general issue we're all experiencing atm.

Maybe the new process of WR is going to exacerbate this issue for the foreseeable future, particularly in the first week or two of each relink. But maybe this will also shine a harder light on the problem and perhaps Anet will finally begin to do something about it.

I'm not holding my breath.

I think you’re right.

The current situation has an obvious solution: the underdogs should just withdraw from all big fights and concentrate on guerilla-style harassment at the edges. The problem is that this is probably not fun for either side, and is not rewarding. You cannot win like this and if the other side has more coverage, you probably can’t even execute it at all. When the best possible counterstrategy kills the fun for everyone, your game mode has an issues.

Boon ball could work, but I think stacking defences and stuns/pulls makes the whole thing feel terrible. At no point should the game teach you that the best way to play is to not log off for awhile because if your opponent sees you, you are dead.

[Aeolus.3615]

22 hours ago, Burial.1958 said:

Nah but expecially in EU with now 6 Tiers some Teams  have much lesser peoples it seems. There is something very odd with the population/timezone balance. We have now like max 10 peoples fighting against 50+ reds.  That is not fun. And even more worse with this awful boonblob spamm meta where u can do literally nothing against it.

edit: This is now going on for hours.

Big vs medium vs small  timezones WvW was always about ktrain and farm, why do u think dev's said they wanted to port EOTM back in the days, they loved the blob pvd even QQ'ed when i builded an ac to hit the blob with a PM sayhing i was ruining players experience by hitting them.

Same happened in spvp room by killing them before reaching PoC (point of capture) QQ'ing about i had to allow  them reach the PoC then we should fight there, i didn't want them to fight on the PoC so my allies could capture it... they ended leaving the match..lol.

TDLR: dont expect a  somewhat similar number fights the game was never about it, its all about search for loop holes and gimmicks to win, we cant even call it tactics, meta here is not the traditional meta tactic but to search a meta  to be carried w/counters.

Edited June 16 by Aeolus.3615

[shrew.3059]

1 hour ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Big vs medium vs small  timezones WvW was always about ktrain and farm, why do u think dev's said they wanted to port EOTM back in the days, they loved the blob pvd even QQ'ed when i builded an ac to hit the blob with a PM sayhing i was ruining players experience by hitting them.

WvW is basically PvE with human-controlled mobs?

[Caffynated.5713]

5 hours ago, T G.7496 said:

 

Hopefully, as the weeks pass, these week 1 disparities - of all kinds - will diminish as teams find their place in the tiers.

 

They won't get better; they will get worse. My friends and I have already decided to take 6 weeks off until the next reshuffle. 

More people who got put on designated losing teams will follow suit. 

[senftube.6081]

3 minutes ago, Caffynated.5713 said:

They won't get better; they will get worse. My friends and I have already decided to take 6 weeks off until the next reshuffle. 

More people who got put on designated losing teams will follow suit. 

Same not worth the time.

[Caffynated.5713]

1 hour ago, senftube.6081 said:

Same not worth the time.

I'm just happy they ruined the game before I spent money on the expansion. 

[T G.7496]

2 hours ago, Caffynated.5713 said:

They won't get better; they will get worse.

There's no evidence yet for this. I hope you're wrong.

2 hours ago, Caffynated.5713 said:

... designated losing teams ... 

I don't think this is a thing.

I hope teams will find the tier(s) where there content is better matched.

More worrying is that, with now 6 EU tiers but only a 4-week relink cycle, there is potentially insufficient time for teams to find their tier through the weekly up/down process.

Certainly, if you are in a 'T1 level' team placed in T6 on relink, you won't have even enough time to get to T1.

That's not great design.

[Astralporing.1957]

10 hours ago, Nidome.1365 said:

If what you suggest is true, but then it would be true for all servers that MIGHT count for a slight population disparity, but this level of disparity is massive. I have never seen a population disparity so big in the near 11.75 years I have been playing WvW

I have. Many times over. If anything, the current situation where i'm at seems far more balanced than many cases i have seen previously.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, T G.7496 said:

More worrying is that, with now 6 EU tiers but only a 4-week relink cycle, there is potentially insufficient time for teams to find their tier through the weekly up/down process.

Certainly, if you are in a 'T1 level' team placed in T6 on relink, you won't have even enough time to get to T1.

That's not great design.

Actually, in the new system tiers itself have completely lost their meaning. Players that create a T1 "server today may end up being scattered all over lower tiers next time, because the system does not seem to take tiers into consideration (because if it did, it would be flawed at its core). The end result of the system Anet tried so desperately to create was supposed to be servers that are pretty much equal in population and coverage (if not in skill, which is much harder to quantify). Dividing the resulting servers into tiers is something that does not fit that design goal at all.

[XenesisII.1540]

13 minutes ago, T G.7496 said:

There's no evidence yet for this. I hope you're wrong.

I don't think this is a thing.

I hope teams will find the tier(s) where there content is better matched.

More worrying is that, with now 6 EU tiers but only a 4-week relink cycle, there is potentially insufficient time for teams to find their tier through the weekly up/down process.

Certainly, if you are in a 'T1 level' team placed in T6 on relink, you won't have even enough time to get to T1.

That's not great design.

WR was suppose to help lessen the effect of a lower tier world not being competitive enough with a higher one. If we're just back to "well just wait until your world drops in tiers for a better match"... what was the whole point of doing WR if the experiences turn out to be the exact same as before?

Not to mention whole concept of "finding your tier" becomes ridiculous when you think that you first have to float to whatever tier you belong to over a set number of weeks, get to the tier but then you have the potential to be booted out of that tier because of a win or loss because of 1u1d, and then in 4 weeks it all gets reset anyways and your world is randomly potentially dumped into a tier you don't belong to, again. You potentially spend more time "out of tier" rather than "in your tier".

WR was suppose to help balance worlds so there's less potential for outnumbered time periods, better spread of coverage if the time zone sorting factor actually works, T1-6 shouldn't be a huge difference, yet we see matches that have 20-39 victory point differences already.

I don't see a difference between systems right now other than allowing try hard players to stack fatter for free. 🤷‍♂️